A Tragic Day For The USA.

[BlinkinCat]

A few hours ago I was feeling happy - I had just changed my Avatar to reflect my mood by selecting one which was more in keeping with the advent of Christmas.

However all that changed upon hearing of the horrific murders in the USA. That twenty of these murders (I believe) were of children between the age of five and ten is particularly sad.

RIP all of the lost souls.

Suffice to say my posts will not have my usual Avatar until the New Year.

[lisati]

I hope we never get desensitised to the tragedy of such occurences.

[mips]

Really very sad!But when you hear about this stuff it's always in the US.

Condolences to the families & friends in these times of despair. may you all find peace.

EDIT: Sorry but this schite makes me mad, there's no need for it.

[haqking]

Really very sad!But when you hear about this stuff it's always in the US.

Condolences to the families & friends in these times of despair. may you all find peace.
For the most part, though 2011 Norway was tragic also with 77 dead. (and he gets only 21 years, that is the real tragedy !)

But yes it is yet another sad day, the world is devolving

[Frogs Hair]

20 students 6 adults gone:(.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/14/15909827-connecticut-school-shooting-is-second-worst-in-us-history?lite

[jerome1232]

Really very sad!But when you hear about this stuff it's always in the US.


The US just happens to make world news more often, we doen't get exclusive rights to crazy psychopath killers, it is unfortunately a world wide thing.

I can't comprehend the hate that must live inside someone that commits these atrocities. I understand one of the children was the killers own, the teacher his mother.

[QIII]

My wife nearly broke the TV when one commentator said "This is the face of mental illness."

That generalization of the mentally ill as murderous criminals one and all every time something like this happens really bakes her.

I haven't a murderous or criminal bone in my body, yet I am mentally ill.

Two tragedies: the children and the label.

My heart goes out to the families.

[jerome1232]

My wife nearly broke the TV when one commentator said "This is the face of mental illness."

That generalization of the mentally ill as murderous criminals one and all every time something like this happens really bakes her.

I haven't a murderous or criminal bone in my body, yet I am mentally ill.

Two tragedies: the children and the label.

My heart goes out to the families.

That's an illogical jump, it is one thing to say this is an affect of a mental illness (it likely was), another entirely to say all mentally ill individuals are psycho killers.

[slickymaster]

It's horrible to see that man is able to do what no animal can, to kill innocent defenseless children.

All our thoughts and affections are with their families and theirs friends. May they all find peace and comfort.

[lisati]

My wife nearly broke the TV when one commentator said "This is the face of mental illness."

That generalization of the mentally ill as murderous criminals one and all every time something like this happens really bakes her.

I haven't a murderous or criminal bone in my body, yet I am mentally ill.

Two tragedies: the children and the label.

My heart goes out to the families.

The majority (all?) of the people I've met who have had mental health issues to cope with are not the sort of people who would suit the label of "dangerous criminal" :(

Sometimes I wonder if the media are more interested in a story than the suitability of a lablel.

[haqking]

It's horrible to see that man is able to do what no animal can, to kill innocent defenseless children.

All our thoughts and affections are with their families and theirs friends. May they all find peace and comfort.

Animals kill and eat defenceless children (young animals that is) some are even cannibalistic parents all the time, if you mean they dont kill them for fun or sport only for necessity then yes thats true.

[CharlesA]

My wife nearly broke the TV when one commentator said "This is the face of mental illness."

That generalization of the mentally ill as murderous criminals one and all every time something like this happens really bakes her.

I haven't a murderous or criminal bone in my body, yet I am mentally ill.

Two tragedies: the children and the label.

My heart goes out to the families.

Indeed. I have also seen a ton of junk about gun control and banning guns and stuff like that.

If someone wants a gun, they will find a way to get their hands on a gun. =/

[QIII]

That's an illogical jump, it is one thing to say this is an affect of a mental illness (it likely was), another entirely to say all mentally ill individuals are psycho killers.

It is a logical fallacy known as the Hasty Generalization.

Yet that is often the portrayal in the media and the perception of many. I have dealt with the label and the attitude for many years.

This guy certainly was ill. No doubt. But that is no excuse for his reprehensible actions.

[jerome1232]

I think a gun control debate is a great way to get this thread locked.

(I agree with you CharlsA)

[haqking]

Indeed. I have also seen a ton of junk about gun control and banning guns and stuff like that.

If someone wants a gun, they will find a way to get their hands on a gun. =/

That is a true, and though i dont want to get into the whole gun control thing it is also true that it is alot easier to shoot someone if you have a gun than it is if you havent ;-)

People rarely get killed by shuriken throwing stars, why ? cause not many people have them, but people get stabbed all the time, why ? cause knives are readily available.

Yet we ban martial art weapons here in the UK, yet stanley knives can be bought by anyone, and that is the football hooligans/yob/chavs weapon of choice, not a blow gun, kusarigama or nunchaku....LOL

[BlinkinCat]

I think a gun control debate is a great way to get this thread locked.

(I agree with you CharlsA)

As the OP I would just like to say that I suffered from a psychotic disorder for a number of years and there was far more danger of me harming myself than any other human being. Thankfully those years have passed.

Edit: I would also like to say that I am in agreement with jerome1232's quote. I can see more to be gained in recognizing the remembrance aspect of the tragedy.

[jerome1232]

As the OP I would just like to say that I suffered from a psychotic disorder for a number of years and there was far more danger of me harming myself than any other human being. Thankfully those years have passed.

I am no stranger to difficult situations and I do emphasize with you, however I fail to see what your statement has to do with my post you quoted. I was merely implying we should probably avoid talking about gun control as it's likely to lead to arguments that will get the thread locked.

[sdowney717]

The shooters mother worked at the school.

You just dont know what is inside someone's head.

It is things like this that should make you treat all people respectfully. You dont know if what you just told them will set them off on an evil path. Still it is the shooter's fault and not society. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, IMO.

[BlinkinCat]

I am no stranger to difficult situations and I do emphasize with you, however I fail to see what your statement has to do with my post you quoted. I was merely implying we should probably avoid talking about gun control as it's likely to lead to arguments that will get the thread locked.

I apologize jerome1232 - I have added an edit to my post. In the first place I just wished to get the ball rolling and hopefully allow as many as possible to express their sorrow.

[Shibblet]

It's infuriating. It's saddening. It's maddening. There is no cause for this, and yet it still happened.

We all want to figure out ways to keep this from happening, but we can't. We all want justice to be served, but it won't. We all want to understand why this happened, but it will never make sense. This cloud has no silver lining. This was nothing more than a purely destructive act in which there is no resolve.

No gun control issue could have stopped this. No mental analysis could have prevented this. No forewarning could have been known.

The responsibility is not on the school. It's not with the children, the faculty, the police, national guard, etc.

The only person responsible for this tragedy is the one who caused it. And because he is dead, there can be no justice. Even if he were still alive, the sentence carried wouldn't be enough.

I live in the USA. When a tragedy like this occurs, it's the people involved who have to carry the burden. It's the staff and students of Sandy Hook Elementary who have to carry the pain. It's the residents of Connecticut who harbor the shame. It's the citizens of the USA who have to feel the tragedy. And none of us should have to pay this price, or carry this burden, due to the insane actions of another person.

As a resident of the USA, no... any citizen of any country would feel this way... get so frustrated when things like this occur. Senseless destruction, moral torment, and rampant injustice.

The only thing left for us, whether believer or non-believer, is to hope in our hearts, that there will be justice, and it will be served.

[CharlesA]

I think a gun control debate is a great way to get this thread locked.

(I agree with you CharlsA)
Indeed. As it usually ends up being about politics. =/

This is a terrible tragedy in any case.

[haqking]

The only thing left for us, whether believer or non-believer, is to hope in our hearts, that there will be justice, and it will be served.

There is no justice, only the law....and the perpetrator is dead

[Shibblet]

There is no justice, only the law....and the perpetrator is dead

Please, please, please... don't quote out of context. The actual quote is...


The only thing left for us, whether believer or non-believer, is to hope in our hearts, that there will be justice, and it will be served.

[haqking]

Please, please, please... don't quote out of context. The actual quote is...

I have amended it, my point was the same

[QIII]

He took 27 lives, destroyed countless others and paid only a single life for the pleasure.

His prize was bought cheap.

There is no justice in this world. Something like this could almost make me wish I believed there was another.

[Shibblet]

I have amended it, my point was the same

Thank you. And I see your point, as well.

I just didn't want a thread-surfer to come across that and not realize what was being said.

[KiwiNZ]

To those affected which is all of us, may your God and family give you strength and togetherness.

Ahoha, Kia Kaha

[MadmanRB]

My wife nearly broke the TV when one commentator said "This is the face of mental illness."

That generalization of the mentally ill as murderous criminals one and all every time something like this happens really bakes her.

I haven't a murderous or criminal bone in my body, yet I am mentally ill.

Two tragedies: the children and the label.

My heart goes out to the families.

I would like to know what network said this, I could make a lawsuit in 10 seconds flat.

[haqking]

I would like to know what network said this, I could make a lawsuit in 10 seconds flat.

there are a few articles mentioning this if you google "adam lanza mental health" or "adam lanza mental illness"

Of course it will be a question, luckily he killed himself (well easy out for him) but if he didnt then he would of got off by using mental illness as a plea.

and if i hear one more reporter ask the question to someone "how will this effect the community" or "Are the town upset" I think I may explode, what is wrong with these people

[jerome1232]

there are a few articles mentioning this if you google "adam lanza mental health" or "adam lanza mental illness"

Of course it will be a question, luckily he killed himself (well easy out for him) but if he didnt then he would of got off by using mental illness as a plea.

and if i hear one more reporter ask the question to someone "how will this effect the community" or "Are the town upset" I think I may explode, what is wrong with these people

Did he? All I've heard is that he was found dead. With early reports of two gunman I don't find it all that unlikely that he was stopped by someone who illegally had a firearm on the premises.

That's pure speculation on my part however, I just haven't heard a layout of the events and how he did die from any source yet.

[haqking]

Did he? All I've heard is that he was found dead. With early reports of two gunman I don't find it all that unlikely that he was stopped by someone who illegally had a firearm on the premises.

That's pure speculation on my part however, I just haven't heard a layout of the events and how he did die from any source yet.

sorry my bad, yeah i made the assumption he killed himself or at least wrote it not thinking.

Though some articles are saying the same such as this one from sky http://news.sky.com/story/1025795/newtown-shooting-adam-lanza-leaves-27-dead

it is irritating that they keep bringing up Aspergers and bright and socially awkward, if thats the fault im ready to blow any minute...LOL

Peace

[Bandit]

Indeed. I have also seen a ton of junk about gun control and banning guns and stuff like that.

If someone wants a gun, they will find a way to get their hands on a gun. =/

This is true what we need more accountability to own a gun and more accountability when using one to commit violence. Tragedies like this can be prevented without banning firearms. But Citizens are going to have to step up and earn the right to own guns and keep earning the right to keep them. The guy that committed todays violent act did not even own the firearms. They were taken from his parents. I do believe if the guns had trigger locks and were also placed in a gun safe. Both parents and the 26 victims today would still be alive. Its that simple. But sadly those simple task were never performed and now we must morn for the loss of so many, 20 of which are children that never hurt anyone and were innocent souls. My heart goes out to them and their families in this moment of sorrow.



I hope my post doesnt come out as political. Its not. Its just hard facts.

[3rdalbum]

When anyone can get guns, anyone will use guns.

Why did his parents need pistols and a rifle? For self-defence? If so, they didn't save the mother's life. Quite the opposite.

You can argue that the kid could have obtained a gun even if the US practiced good gun control. But is it likely he would have gone to the trouble of breaking into a farmhouse, police station, sporting shooter's house etc?

The guns are not the underlying cause, but they greatly increase the damage that can be done.

[zombifier25]

When anyone can get guns, anyone will use guns.

Why did his parents need pistols and a rifle? For self-defence? If so, they didn't save the mother's life. Quite the opposite.

You can argue that the kid could have obtained a gun even if the US practiced good gun control. But is it likely he would have gone to the trouble of breaking into a farmhouse, police station, sporting shooter's house etc?

The guns are not the underlying cause, but they greatly increase the damage that can be done.

I'm inclined to agree. In where I live and many other places, not even police officers use guns.

[click4851]

"...greatly increase the damage..."?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

Almost the same amount of victims, luckily better outcome. I think its unproductive to focus on the tool used in the crime. By focusing on the tool, you greatly underestimate the imagination and depth of determination and adaptability of the human mind. Ask the Israeli's why no one attacks schools full of children in Israel. Why do we protect our money and important personal items better than we protect our kids at school?

[jerome1232]

I think it's interesting that as gun ownership has declined in the US, mass shootings have increased. The most popular murder weapon in the US, is a baseball bat, that while the US has by far the most civilian owned firearms, it doesn't even make the top 50 for homicide rates.

That's as far as I'm willing to get sucked into it.

edit:

Haqking, it seems you were right, I hadn't checked the news in awhile (I was at a hokey game) and it seems that it was apparent suicide, I'm still curious about the reports of 2 gunman early on.

[kurt18947]

Indeed. I have also seen a ton of junk about gun control and banning guns and stuff like that.

If someone wants a gun, they will find a way to get their hands on a gun. =/

Sad but true.

[mr john]

Discussion of gun law politics does not belong on the Ubuntu forums and may be in violation of the TOS.


By all means give sympathy to the victims, but this is not the place for discussing gun laws.

[Swagman]

I can see the US making their schools similar to how UK schools are now after Dunblane.

They all now bare a remarkable resemblance to Stalags !!

ie: High security fencing all round
security doors
CCTV EVERYWHERE

You can't play on the school fields like we used to be able to do.

Everyone has to be "buzzed in"

A sad indictment on todays society.

[Bandit]

I think it's interesting that as gun ownership has declined in the US, mass shootings have increased. The most popular murder weapon in the US, is a baseball bat, that while the US has by far the most civilian owned firearms, it doesn't even make the top 50 for homicide rates.

That's as far as I'm willing to get sucked into it.

edit:

Haqking, it seems you were right, I hadn't checked the news in awhile (I was at a hokey game) and it seems that it was apparent suicide, I'm still curious about the reports of 2 gunman early on.

To quote CNN last night, ownership of guns in the US is 7 out of 100. While in switzerland 46 out of 100 own guns. So there is no direct correlation with amount of guns and violence. What I do see is the lack off proper punishment towards criminals that commit acts of violence with guns. The US is way to soft on criminals, what we need is to make people more accountable for their actions. Instead of criminals getting out of prison after 3 to 5 years for various reasons after robbing a store or shooting at someone. They need to spend bare minimum 25 years no parole, hard labor. Crimes were someone lost their life, those punishments need to be so horrific that the stupidest of people can clearly see that they would never want to use a gun for violence. Now this wouldnt fix what happened yesterday, but making the owner accountable and making them maintain their right to own guns would have. Everyone who owns a firearm including myself should be required to law to keep trigger locks on all firearms AND be required to keep them in a gun safe at all times when not being used or during cleaning. Thus a double saftey. These are the steps that need to go into action. Some people argue they need handguns or other firearms for home safety. I am prior military. Hell no you dont need them for home safety. We have so many non-leathal weapons that can drop the largest of men to the ground without killing them or endangering anyone else. I am not ANTI-GUN, but damn we as americans are gonna have to show some maturity here and earn the right to keep our right to bare arms in this matter. If not banning them all together is a poor option, but sometimes all life gives you is bad options..

[Swagman]

Treading on eggshells here re: getting the thread locked but...

In the days when the 2nd amendment was drawn up Muskets were the dominent firearm.

A musket probably takes a skilled militia about 30 seconds to reload Each round

The second amendment needs ammending or at least enforcing..

ie: You only have the right to bare arms re: 2nd amendment If that firearm is a Musket !!

Just as deadly, but to all intents and purposes..Single shot !

[DZ*]

The US is way to soft on criminals, what we need is to make people more accountable for their actions. Instead of criminals getting out of prison after 3 to 5 years for various reasons after robbing a store or shooting at someone. They need to spend bare minimum 25 years no parole, hard labor.

The USA already leads the world by the rate of incarceration per capita. Eight times more compared to the rest of the Western countries.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#Causes

"A major contributor to the high incarceration rates is the length of the prison sentences in the United States. One of the criticisms of the United States system is that it has much longer sentences than any other part of the world."

[Linuxratty]

Really very sad!But when you hear about this stuff it's always in the US.


No it's not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTG ... _embedded#!

[kansasnoob]

Well, needless to say, this was a needless and pointless tragedy but let's wait for all of the facts.

One thing in particular is still confusing to me ...... was the mother of the shooter actually a teacher? It's now sounding less likely than originally indicated.

There are however some reports stating that a brother has indicated that the shooter was known to suffer from mental illness. And other reports indicate that the guns all belonged to the mother. So I'm wondering if the mother took adequate precautions to keep the guns away from a child that she knew was mentally ill? Must wait for more facts.

Regarding the latter I do have some personal insight though. I still own several guns but they're now in the possession of my eldest son because I'm becoming too feeble-minded to be trusted with guns 24/7. But even many years prior the onset of my feeble-mindedness I had to begin taking extraordinary precautions with my guns because my youngest son began to display serious mental health issues around 14 years of age.

Those mental health issues later manifested in bipolar with psychotic episodes bordering on schizophrenia and my son has tried to hurt others and himself numerous times. Thank goodness he was never able to get his hands on any guns while he was at his worst, but many people don't take gun ownership seriously enough.

I can absolutely say that one thing that is lacking here in the USA is adequate access to appropriate psychiatric care, particularly in-patient care! I've lived, and am still living, that nightmare with my youngest son who is now in his mid 30's.

[QIII]

The US does have a well-regulated militia. It has, over the years, turned into the National Guard. It's constitutionality has been challenged and upheld by SCOTUS.

The Second Amendment has twice been challenged with regard to constitutionally outside of militias. It has been upheld twice.

These are dead issues. Neither will likely change. Neither have any bearing on the grief the families are feeling.

Arguing about the merits of gun ownership is something to address with Legislators. Empassioned debate about political issues belongs in a venue which does not expressly forbid political discussion.

Let's direct our emotional outpourings in the form of condolences to the families of the victims and the shooter -- who are also in pain.

With that, I'd like to ask the Forum Staff to close this thread before a real flamefest erupts.

[DZ*]

Animals kill and eat defenceless children (young animals that is) some are even cannibalistic parents all the time, if you mean they dont kill them for fun or sport only for necessity then yes thats true.

Surely humans are nothing special. Have you seen those movies of orcas tossing baby seals 30 ft up in the air? Domestic (outdoor) cats kill variety of small animals for something that is close to either fun or sport. The KittyCat (http://www.abcbirds.org/newsandreports/releases/120806.html) study found that "Cats will kill a wide variety of animals, including: lizards, voles, chipmunks, birds, frogs, and small snakes". Most of it is actually not birds but lizards and snakes, and not for food.

[mr john]

This is not a politics forum.

[nothingspecial]

The thread was supposed to be about this




RIP all of the lost souls.



as usual, it's not turned out that way.

Closed.