Suprises planned for RR. [Archive]

grahammechanical

October 19th, 2012, 03:31 PM

The skunkworks approach has its detractors. We’ve tried it both ways, and in the end, figured out that critics will be critics whether you discuss an idea with them in advance or not.

Skunkworks? What is that?

The designation "skunk works", or "skunkworks", is widely used in business, engineering, and technical fields to describe a group within an organization given a high degree of autonomy and unhampered by bureaucracy, tasked with working on advanced or secret projects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works

This is an opportunity for all the moaners to get involved. But will they? And will they shut up if the do not get involved? Don't bet on it.

Is there any room in this project for a tester?

Regards.

rg4w

October 19th, 2012, 04:55 PM

Is there any room in this project for a tester?
The last line in sabdfl's blog post provides contact info for that.

ventrical

October 19th, 2012, 06:15 PM

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1200

Anyone in?

"sexy" ??

I'd rather punchy , beautiful and effervescent! :)

ventrical

October 19th, 2012, 06:16 PM

Skunkworks? What is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Works

This is an opportunity for all the moaners to get involved. But will they? And will they shut up if the do not get involved? Don't bet on it.

Is there any room in this project for a tester?

Regards.

Thats a good question!!

arpanaut

October 20th, 2012, 01:57 PM

Is there any room in this project for a tester?

Just as long as you don't get your testes in a bind.

VinDSL

October 21st, 2012, 06:25 AM

Well, here's my 1st big surprise...

No Ubuntu Tweak for Ubu RR!

http://vindsl.com/images/vindsl-desktop-20-oct-2012-1(650x520).png (http://vindsl.com/images/vindsl-desktop-20-oct-2012-1.png)

I suppose it will work for a while, then...

Last man out, turn off the lights. :(

UPDATE

Author had a change of heart... :)

http://vindsl.com/images/vindsl-desktop-22-oct-2012-4(650x520).png (http://vindsl.com/images/vindsl-desktop-22-oct-2012-4.png)

Bucky Ball

October 21st, 2012, 06:50 AM

I completely disagree with the whole concept. Last I looked it was 'open-source', not 'let's go whisper in a corridor'. Thought they were the sort of organisations I was getting away from by using open-source. Not for me ...

This is an opportunity for all the moaners to get involved.

This is NOT an opportunity for all the moaners to get involved. It is elitist as you need to be a forum member or close (on what criteria and by whom this is judged who knows). From the very first paragraph on the page:

While we won’t talk about them until we think they are ready to celebrate, we’re happy to engage with contributing community members that have established credibility (membership, or close to it) in Ubuntu, who want to be part of the action. Not everyone wants to be a member, nor should they be required to be to contribute to any project they feel they have something to give; they should always have a choice.

There are other reasons I believe this to be a bad idea but I shan't ramble. Most of them are mentioned on the original link.

;)

cariboo

October 21st, 2012, 06:58 AM

I completely disagree with the whole concept. Last I looked it was 'open-source', not 'let's go whisper in a corridor'. Thought that's the sort of organisations I was getting away from by using open-source. Not for me ... thinking of testing out some other OSs over xmas ...

I think something was missed in the translation, if anything development is more open than it was before, see Mark's blog post here (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1207). I would encourage you to try different distro's though just to see if you are missing something. :)

MG&TL

October 21st, 2012, 07:36 AM

I'm up for it. Question is where I sign up. :)

cariboo

October 21st, 2012, 06:36 PM

There won't be much happening until after UDS-R.

Bucky Ball

October 22nd, 2012, 02:05 AM

see Mark's blog post here (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1207).

Yes, interesting twist. Bottom line, though, is still: Get input from the wider community generally, take this and work in private with a select group on projects the general community, the ones originally inputting into this, now have no access to until the completed 'surprise' is unveiled in a blaze of glory. But not all surprises are good ones.

I can only see this situation as problematic, regardless of whatever spin MShuttleworth or anyone else puts on the idea. The link you provided was obviously Mark's re-spin response to users approaching him with the same concerns I have (and no doubt others). As he says in the link you provided, the idea was spontaneous. Consequently, I don't think it was very well thought out.

Proof of this is perhaps all in the link? The fact he even wrote the second linked blog is proof there must be more than a bit of concern from other users. We are not all out here patting each other on the backs and genuflecting ...

IMHO ;)

PS: No one get me wrong; I love Ubuntu as many of you are aware. I just don't agree with this particular development.

mcellius

October 22nd, 2012, 03:20 AM

This development doesn't bother me in the least. It appears to me that most distros and projects, at least at the beginning, are developed in private. I haven't seen many announcements of the sort, "Hey, I'm going to spin a new distro based on Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora/Gentoo/Arch/whatever that will incorporate features from the game Doom." Usually the first we hear about it is in the initial release, or maybe a beta release. I don't have a problem with that.

This seems like the same, and I think openness requires that everyone be free to develop whatever software they like and then release it whenever they want. They should be free to ask for help, or not, as they prefer, and either solicit input or not, too. When released these programs will be open source, meaning the source code will be available to everyone and anyone to modify and use as desired, and I think that's completely fair and open.

I think this is a great idea! It will create small specialized teams that will focus on particular problems or programs, which could be a highly efficient and productive way to advance all sorts of free and open source software. I look forward to seeing what these teams can produce, and what sorts of creativity might come from it.

Bucky Ball

October 22nd, 2012, 08:05 AM

Message received and understood. I'll possibly end up in one of those teams one day or involved in one way or another. Over and out. ;)

robert shearer

October 22nd, 2012, 09:18 AM

So let us imagine if the everyone adopted Shuttleworths approach.....

"I'm only going to show one other person the o/s I use and keep it secret from the rest until it really performs well...!"

"I will only offer advice on the forums by PM until I know a really special clever way to solve the users problem....."

"I won't contribute code until it is so good no improvements can be made..."

etc etc...

Secret cliques are as infantile as thinking any of the above scenarios would lead to better marketing, support and development.

If someone is unhappy because the Amazon lens was such a dog and the community said so, before release date, think how much more unhappy they could be in future when poor decisions are revealed only after public release.

mcellius

October 22nd, 2012, 12:24 PM

So let us imagine if the everyone adopted Shuttleworths approach.....

Yeah, I think that'd be fine, or at the least not the slightest conflict with free and open source principles. That's part of the freedom, I think.

Secret cliques are as infantile as thinking any of the above scenarios would lead to better marketing, support and development.

No, it isn't a matter of thinking that those scenarios "would" lead to better anything, rather that they could. Either way they do it, it doesn't violate any important principles. Sure, it could all end up a bust, but everyone has the right to try and fail (which must happen all the time, even if we never hear about it) just as much as they have the right to try and succeed.

If someone is unhappy because the Amazon lens was such a dog and the community said so, before release date, think how much more unhappy they could be in future when poor decisions are revealed only after public release.

Yep. And that would be stupid, perhaps, but it's their right. I hope the results are good and not stupid, but how they reach either point is within their rights. I wish them luck and success, but otherwise it's up to them and not a reason for me to complain. And in the end, I'll have the right to accept their work or not, install it or not, and use it or not. Freedom.

jbicha

October 22nd, 2012, 03:08 PM

Robert, there's an alternate way of looking at this.

"I'm only going to show one other person the o/s I use and keep it secret from the rest until it really performs well...!"

I didn't really make public my Ubuntu GNOME build script or an ISO until I actually got it working. That meant that people had to wait until August instead of seeing what was started in May.

"I won't contribute code until it is so good no improvements can be made..."

Yup, I generally don't submit patches until they are as good as I can get them. No use wasting people's time by submitting broken code.

If someone is unhappy because the Amazon lens was such a dog and the community said so, before release date, think how much more unhappy they could be in future when poor decisions are revealed only after public release.

There is still a Feature Freeze and a UI Freeze which need to be followed.

robert shearer

October 23rd, 2012, 09:40 AM

Hi Jeremy, I meant no disrespect to you or other coders. You all do marvellous work. :-)

I was simply illustrating, using some very improbable examples, the 'closed' behaviours engendered by elevating some groups in the community to be 'special trusted testers'.

Either there is a community which, by definition is inclusive of all abilities, or there is not.

Making some more equal than others (qv George Orwell ?) does not a Community make.

There is still a Feature Freeze and a UI Freeze which need to be followed.

I waited a good few hours for someone to point out the obvious but alas the task falls to me...

The Amazon lens was introduced after the feature freeze.
Not only did this upset many posters but it makes a mockery of having accountable timelines and removes the protections intended to ensure a coherent release. :-(

ventrical

October 23rd, 2012, 02:10 PM

I think Mark mentioned 'trust' several times. I think it is about having trusted individuals on a brainstorming team that get to upchuck some stuff into the repos. Remember, we don't have anti-malware resident guards like competing OSes and such goes the meritocracy of how the repo infrastructure is ultimately maintained. They want to keep that concept vigorously tested and fortified - and so I think this would apply to some newbie invites - that perhaps they have to earn some measure of trust - otherwise there could be a freefall of bugs . No? I don't think this is a special interest group or an invite to a clique.

cariboo

October 23rd, 2012, 04:15 PM

robert shearer

October 24th, 2012, 12:26 AM

A great way to earn that trust, is to become an Ubuntu member. To become aa Ubuntu member via the Forum, have a look a this (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1750642) thread. Of course you can also apply via the Membership board (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards)

I hear you Cariboo :-).
Though it is a two-way street.

Trust in society is generally given as of right and then lost once it is broken whilst it is respect that is earned.

I continue to respect Canonical but after the Amazon lens bombshell and 'Erm, we have root' comments I no longer trust them as strongly as I once did.

As far as membership I lean more towards Groucho Marx's theory on clubs. :-)

jerrylamos

October 24th, 2012, 01:52 AM

Raring Ringtail

Are we getting Ubuntu on our phones maybe? :P

"Ubuntu everywhere" they wish. My comment, I've got a 10.1" Asus tablet and a 10.1" Acer netbook.

Asus tablet running Android boot to internet is blases faster than Acer netbook running Quetzal - with faster hardware.

Now personally once booted up I get more work done with Ubuntu (since 2006) than Android (since 2012). Yes tablet's got a keyboard. Android O.K. for output, not nearly so good as Ubuntu for saving internet articles with graphics to a Libre write file...

Ubuntu on your phone maybe, boggles my mind having unity/compiz on that little hardware...

Slug71

November 2nd, 2012, 03:36 AM

Hi Jeremy, I meant no disrespect to you or other coders. You all do marvellous work. :-)

I was simply illustrating, using some very improbable examples, the 'closed' behaviours engendered by elevating some groups in the community to be 'special trusted testers'.

Either there is a community which, by definition is inclusive of all abilities, or there is not.

Making some more equal than others (qv George Orwell ?) does not a Community make.

I waited a good few hours for someone to point out the obvious but alas the task falls to me...

The Amazon lens was introduced after the feature freeze.
Not only did this upset many posters but it makes a mockery of having accountable timelines and removes the protections intended to ensure a coherent release. :-(

I get where you're going but not everything thats planned can be held in secret until release. Some of the surprises will have to be revealed
so it can be tested by the community which will be a much larger audience than those in the know. I think thats where jbicha was going with the Feature and UI Freezes.

Cheesemill

November 2nd, 2012, 12:58 PM

Thought I'd post back on this thread I started. Re-reading the original blog post it doesn't mention anywhere that these 'surprises' will only be revealed upon release.

They will be unveiled when they are ready, without an official time-line then people are just speculating. There is nothing to say that these features wont be revealed for Alpha 1, Beta 2 or RC for example.

we won’t talk about them until we think they are ready

dino99

November 2nd, 2012, 01:01 PM

i already know one of them: by now ubuntu will only send bug free version in the wild :P

jerrylamos

November 3rd, 2012, 11:40 PM

Same here! startup disk creator is crashng now...:mad:
I cheat and boot the .iso directly from the hard drive with a /etc/grub.d/40_custom like so:

#!/bin/sh
exec tail -n +3 $0
# This file provides an easy way to add custom menu entries. Simply type the
# menu entries you want to add after this comment. Be careful not to change
# the 'exec tail' line above.
menuentry "Pangolin 12.04.1 LTS" {
set isofile="/ubuntu-12.10-desktop-i386.iso
loopback loop (hd0,10)$isofile
linux (loop)/casper/vmlinuz boot=casper iso-scan/filename=$isofile noprompt noeject
initrd (loop)/casper/initrd.lz
}

also do
sudo chmod 777 /etc/grub.d/40_custom
sudo update-grub
Reboot
select the manuentry above
Ctrl-Alt-t
df
see where the isodevice is then do a special unmount
sudo umount -r -l /dev/sda10

since in this case the .iso is in a partition /dev/sda10
I've got a zsync there, check forum for warnings, zsync the latest daily build, boot the .iso if it looks O.K. install in a partition all ready to go via gparted.

Select install this being unstable development hang on to your hat....
** don't have two .iso with the same name at different levels anywhere on your hard drives
.iso size doesn't matter.

Now this doesn't test ubuntu code for creating usb drives. That's separate testing.