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KiwiNZ
October 19th, 2012, 05:44 AM
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/18/ubuntu-12-10-launches-with-web-apps-and-search/

"Company head Mark Shuttleworth wants a "skunkworks" approach that will silence pre-release discussion of some features outside of key, trustworthy community members."

Not sure this is the right approach for an "open" source product.

Thoughts?

carl4926
October 19th, 2012, 05:51 AM
Not sure this is the right approach for an "open" source product.Inclined to agree

cariboo
October 19th, 2012, 06:01 AM
It sounds like Mark is a bit annoyed with some of the negative press coverage that Ubuntu has received lately.

In a way I can see why he wants to keep things under cover, until it's ready for release, but in another way, it would be nice to see what is coming, and help test it, so that there aren't any problems when a version is released.

Mikeb85
October 19th, 2012, 06:09 AM
I think it's a good approach. The 'community' approach, while it has worked to a certain degree, isn't perfect. Look at kernel development - despite it being open source Linus Torvalds controls the process quite a bit...

Canonical needs to turn Ubuntu into a polished, professional OS. This isn't going to happen if you're trying to please everyone, with all the naysayers and wasted, split effort. Canonical needs to make money, pay its staff, it's their right to decide how they develop the product they rely on.

And I personally think a more 'professional' approach could do some good for Linux...

KiwiNZ
October 19th, 2012, 06:10 AM
Really complaints etc go with the territory, Mark should know this and accept this, genuine complaints and not trolling are a gift. There has been a considerable amount of trolling especially with Unity and Amazon and this makes it difficult to sort the rubbish from the good stuff .

I guess we have the Unity and Amazon Trolls to thank for this.

carl4926
October 19th, 2012, 06:10 AM
it would be nice to see what is coming, and help test itMaybe I misunderstand the new stance, but I would think we could still do that?
with +1 daily and feature freeze releases alpha, beta etc...

s.fox
October 19th, 2012, 10:13 AM
I am slightly worried by this approach, but I do wonder what features require the lack of bureaucracy to implement change unimpeded.

It also leads me to wonder what the criteria is to be considered a "trustworthy community member"

I suppose wait and see for now.

howefield
October 19th, 2012, 10:35 AM
Now there's a novel concept, introduce more people to the development of a project and somehow that makes it less open.

You could take it from the sensationalist headline writers or you could take it from the horses mouth.

KiwiNZ
October 19th, 2012, 10:51 AM
Makes me ponder are heading towards two editions, Ubuntu Enterprise Linux and Ubuntu Community Edition as per the Red Hat example.

Paqman
October 19th, 2012, 11:43 AM
I guess we have the Unity and Amazon Trolls to thank for this.

Absolutely. Does seem a little like throwing the baby out with the bathwater though. Personally I'll reserve judgement until we see how it's implemented.

mips
October 19th, 2012, 01:03 PM
I don't think this is a good idea.

As for the criticism you must take the good with the bad.

philinux
October 19th, 2012, 01:20 PM
From the man himself.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1200

ssam
October 19th, 2012, 02:58 PM
i think all developers like to play a bit with stuff in private before releasing it to the world. you loose out on testing if you keep it private too long, but in the early days of a feature a flow of bug reports may not be that beneficial.

i doubt that this will mean surprises on release day. more like just that things arrive in the development versions a bit more ready.

alternatively it might damage some projects though lack of testing and outside contributors.

grahammechanical
October 19th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Is Ubuntu a community developed project or a Canonical developed project with some (a lot or a little, take your pick) community involvement? Who makes the decisions? The Community as a whole or the Canonical team leader?

There are some who think that the Community is sometimes sidelined. How often have we said, 'Ubuntu is not a democracy?'

I see this skunkworks project as a means of drawing community developers further into the development process without the need to make them Canonical employees.

It will also side step those who are quick to complain about changes that have not been fully implemented.

Regards.

Sableyes
October 19th, 2012, 04:00 PM
Makes me ponder are heading towards two editions, Ubuntu Enterprise Linux and Ubuntu Community Edition as per the Red Hat example.

That was my first thought. I quite like that idea to be honest. Its always worked well for Red Hat, and might give 'business Ubuntu' a stronger focus.

forrestcupp
October 19th, 2012, 05:11 PM
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/18/ubuntu-12-10-launches-with-web-apps-and-search/

"Company head Mark Shuttleworth wants a "skunkworks" approach that will silence pre-release discussion of some features outside of key, trustworthy community members."

Not sure this is the right approach for an "open" source product.

Thoughts?Yeah, this sounds kind of crazy. It seems like they are drifting away from the spirit of open source. Maybe they just need to make their parts of the OS proprietary. But then you'd have a bunch of mad people. I don't really like the direction things are going, and that has nothing to do with my dislike for Unity.


Really complaints etc go with the territory, Mark should know this and accept this, genuine complaints and not trolling are a gift.That's exactly right. If you can't run with the big dogs, don't get off the porch.

cprofitt
October 19th, 2012, 05:44 PM
While we won’t talk about them until we think they are ready to celebrate, we’re happy to engage with contributing community members that have established credibility (membership, or close to it) in Ubuntu, who want to be part of the action.

Keywords: happy to engage with contributing members

This means that while the projects may not get announced and discussed until release (for marketing value and splash) the community will be involved.


So, we thought we would extend the invitation to people who trust us and in whom we have reason to trust, to work together on some sexy 13.04 surprises. The projects range from webby (javascript, css, html5) to artistic (do you obsess about kerning and banding) to scientific (are you a framerate addict) to glitzy (pixel shader sherpas wanted) to privacy-enhancing (how is your crypto?) to analytical (big daddy, big brother, pick your pejorative). But they all make the Ubuntu experience better for millions of users, they are all groundbreaking in free software, they will all result in code under the GPL (or an existing upstream license if they are extensions to existing projects). No NDA’s needed but we will need to trust you not to talk in your sleep http://www.markshuttleworth.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif . We’ll also need to trust you to write code that is thorough and tested, stuff you’ll be as proud of as we are of the rest of the Ubuntu experience. Of course.

They are inviting the community in, not excluding it.

sffvba[e0rt
October 19th, 2012, 05:54 PM
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1207

Or as always Mark has managed to not convey the true intentions the first time around.


404

forrestcupp
October 19th, 2012, 06:03 PM
Keywords: happy to engage with contributing members

This means that while the projects may not get announced and discussed until release (for marketing value and splash) the community will be involved.



They are inviting the community in, not excluding it.

That's his way of trying to do this without making people mad. In actuality, what are the criteria for becoming trustworthy enough to be included. And even then, it sounds like the included inner circle will not be able to openly talk about what is going on.

forrestcupp
October 19th, 2012, 06:07 PM
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1207

Or as always Mark has managed to not convey the true intentions the first time around.


404

From the blog:

So please disregard the commentary by folk who assumed that the public discussion of Ubuntu development would somehow change.So does that mean that the inner circle will be able to talk about what is going on?

cprofitt
October 19th, 2012, 06:11 PM
I am willing, based on personal experience, to let this grow and develop before making assumptions about things.

philinux
October 19th, 2012, 06:16 PM
you can follow the discussion here and Mark is replying.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1200/feed

Or leave your comment.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1200#respond

KiwiNZ
October 19th, 2012, 07:04 PM
Normally I am very open to change, I also believe 'he pays the piper calls the tune'. I accept that Mark has the right to do with Ubuntu as he sees best fits his aims.

However, I cannot help thinking that future changes and initiatives will only reach the wider audience when they are a fait accompli. This will take Ubuntu in a new direction the success of which, time will tell. My only hope that in the end reviews of process are done and if the direction needs altering ego does not prevent this.

Times that are interesting are times worth watching and participating in.

sffvba[e0rt
October 19th, 2012, 07:05 PM
Jef Spaleta says: (permalink)
October 19th, 2012 at 5:01 pm
moij,

It is “over the fence” production. And let’s be honest Canonical has been doing development this way for a while now on all the projects they deem important. Over-the-fence and out-of-the-sky to make the most of the press clippings when they do the big reveal. It’s a perception based release model, which is fine I guess and maybe necessary in the consumer device market where your primary customers are the OEMs.

Even though Mark throws Red Hat and Fedora out for you to contrast against and alludes to them as “competitors” I can’t really help feel that in reality, the competitor he really needs the readership to keep in mind is Google. Google with its Android and its ChromeOS…Google with its Nexus 7 tablet that he wants to do some sort of Ubuntu reveal on at the next UDS. Google, is Canonical’s “open” competitor in the consumer device space. And if anyone does “over the fence” development, its Google.

And compared to Google, what Mark has offered up in terms of access going forward, is a very significant contrast. Who, outside of OEM partners under NDA, gets access to Android or ChromeOS feature development?

But, put aside all the misdirected strategic messaging babble that Mark is throwing at you to position Canonical on a higher moral ground relative to “competitors.” Forget all that crap for a second.

Only thing that matters is, compared to the last year or two of Canonical’s track record with regard to how they are doing in-house development…is inviting select externals into what has been up to this point closed door processes, progress for Canonical and the Ubuntu community relationship? It could be. I can’t see how it could be worse than the closed-door development that has come prior.

-jef



Now when Jef actually has something positive to say you should know :p


404

lykwydchykyn
October 19th, 2012, 09:08 PM
Communities are funny things. Sometimes it does more harm to give just a few people extra benefits & privileges than to just give nobody any privileges. You'd think at first glance that it's a net gain to allow some community members to participate in "secret" projects, but stuff like this can poison a community.

I hope it doesn't, guess we'll find out.

mips
October 19th, 2012, 10:21 PM
I see this skunkworks project as a means of drawing community developers further into the development process without the need to make them Canonical employees.


Erm... How does limiting access draw more people in? The more secrecy & access limitations you apply will have the opposite effect to what you claim. This is logic 101 imho.

lykwydchykyn
October 19th, 2012, 10:34 PM
Erm... How does limiting access draw more people in? The more secrecy & access limitations you apply will have the opposite effect to what you claim. This is logic 101 imho.

I think the idea from what I gather is that they've already been doing these kind of "secret" projects with Canonical employees, now they want to bring in members of the wider development community.

forrestcupp
October 19th, 2012, 11:25 PM
I think the idea from what I gather is that they've already been doing these kind of "secret" projects with Canonical employees, now they want to bring in members of the wider development community.

If that's true, which I'm sure it is, they should have just done it quietly with contributors and Ubuntu members, instead of publicizing it. If I don't know what's going on, I don't have the opportunity to be mad about it. But since he publicized it, I have the opportunity to understand that they are keeping secrets, and there's no way in hell that I'm ever going to be approved to be a part of the inner circle. He should have just kept his mouth shut about it.

thatguruguy
October 19th, 2012, 11:48 PM
If that's true, which I'm sure it is, they should have just done it quietly with contributors and Ubuntu members, instead of publicizing it. If I don't know what's going on, I don't have the opportunity to be mad about it. But since he publicized it, I have the opportunity to understand that they are keeping secrets, and there's no way in hell that I'm ever going to be approved to be a part of the inner circle. He should have just kept his mouth shut about it.

What's funny is, they were trying to show that instead of just developing everything in house, they were going to start opening up the process by having, essentially, alpha and beta testers chosen from people who actually use and contribute to the project. The commentators spun this somehow to indicate that Ubuntu was going to be more closed than ever, which is the opposite (apparently) than what is intended.

Haterz gotta hate, or something.

thatguruguy
October 19th, 2012, 11:50 PM
Erm... How does limiting access draw more people in? The more secrecy & access limitations you apply will have the opposite effect to what you claim. This is logic 101 imho.

Limiting access doesn't draw more people in. But that's not what's happening here. Instead of developing new things completely in-house and then dumping them upon an unsuspecting community, comments will be drawn from alpha and beta testers.

vasa1
October 20th, 2012, 03:18 AM
If that's true, which I'm sure it is, they should have just done it quietly with contributors and Ubuntu members, instead of publicizing it. ...
Damned if they do. Damned if they don't.

newbie2
October 23rd, 2012, 01:18 PM
Makes me ponder are heading towards two editions, Ubuntu Enterprise Linux and Ubuntu Community Edition as per the Red Hat example.
Jan Wildeboer from Redhat has seems to think 'otherwise' : https://plus.google.com/112648813199640203443/posts/6fJGtTcLz8K
:P

but Shuttleworth has an answer : http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1207
:)

mips
October 23rd, 2012, 05:51 PM
That's exactly right. If you can't run with the big dogs, don't get off the porch.

Lol, that saying brings back memories! I remember it as a neon sign on the wall of a very popular local night club in the early 90's. The girls use to walk around with holsters containing Jose Cuervo Gold :biggrin:

Oh, what a night
Late December back in '95
What a very special time for me
As I remember what a night

Linuxratty
October 23rd, 2012, 11:38 PM
Makes me ponder are heading towards two editions, Ubuntu Enterprise Linux and Ubuntu Community Edition as per the Red Hat example.

Can you clarify as to what has lead you to this conclusion?

KiwiNZ
October 23rd, 2012, 11:42 PM
Can you clarify as to what has lead you to this conclusion?

Pondering is not a conclusion

cariboo
October 24th, 2012, 03:41 AM
Pondering is not a conclusion

No need to ponder, there is an enterprise edition, available here (http://www.ubuntu.com/business/desktop/remix).

Note You have to register, before downloading the Buisness Remix.

josephmills
November 6th, 2012, 11:56 PM
I think that alot people are missingg some key points here.

Ubuntu and all distro's have always had stuff that they keep away from the public for a good reason (security being one) Yes I understand that this is opensource / fsf but even fsf and even RMS use to do this. Like how RMS did this with Emacs.

Lets take a look at Ubuntu Phone. This is wrapped up so tight that no one has the code and that is ok. But me being a QT developer and Ubuntu Phone being on Unity-2d still makes me think. Or what about the People that are working on Unity and they make something that is great just to find out that the next day libunity is being replaces or that DEE has been moved around ? I was thinking that skunkworks would bring people into this sorta thing and would make for more developers No? I could be wrong on this one But I do not think that I am. I think that this is a way to bring in more developers and also if you read the blog post'S it says right in there that this will in fact will bring in more developers and will also mean that there is no again NO NDA that one has to sign.

This would provide early community input and review, without spoiling the surprise when we think the piece is ready.

Maybe there is a need for people to be acknowledged for there work. Maybe there is a reason not to release code early. When code is release early or leaked to press people expect something then when they get it and some of the options have been changed because of security or whatever they are like "Where is this options ? " I think that Skunkworks will put a stop to things like that. What else will it do? It can make users more excited about new releases because they have no clue what is coming Next. And then when it comes BANG there is this new and cool feature. Further more I think that there is NO AGAIN NO reason what so ever to have Alpha iso released. We have things like UTAH and many many many other testing suites that I think alot people have no clue about.

Again quoting Mark


they are all groundbreaking in free software, they will all result in code under the GPL (or an existing upstream license if they are extensions to existing projects). No NDA’s needed but we will need to trust you not to talk in your sleep

Also I am not sure that you all have read the follow up blog post that mark wrote. Might be a good idea to.
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1207

That is all I have to say on this.

josephmills
November 7th, 2012, 12:09 AM
Limiting access doesn't draw more people in. But that's not what's happening here. Instead of developing new things completely in-house and then dumping them upon an unsuspecting community, comments will be drawn from alpha and beta testers.

There is no more alpha iso's coming Try to watch the Closing Plenary (from UDS) if you can find your hands on it.

josephmills
November 7th, 2012, 12:12 AM
If that's true, which I'm sure it is, they should have just done it quietly with contributors and Ubuntu members, instead of publicizing it. If I don't know what's going on, I don't have the opportunity to be mad about it. But since he publicized it, I have the opportunity to understand that they are keeping secrets, and there's no way in hell that I'm ever going to be approved to be a part of the inner circle. He should have just kept his mouth shut about it.

SkunkWorks Template is located here Have at it
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SkunkWorks/ParticipationTemplate

josephmills
November 7th, 2012, 12:15 AM
i think all developers like to play a bit with stuff in private before releasing it to the world. you loose out on testing if you keep it private too long, but in the early days of a feature a flow of bug reports may not be that beneficial.



We are moving into something new with all the testing suites that are out there, Also did you know that there are computers(wide amounts) that are running tests on it right now ? Far far far more tests then a beta or alpha tester ever could. The days of testing things by hand are gone gone gone and I don't worry cuz I sittin on top of the world :)

nikonian
November 7th, 2012, 01:26 AM
"Annoyed" with negative press? You EARN reputation, it's not a right. Deal with it Mr S.

sffvba[e0rt
November 7th, 2012, 02:52 AM
"Annoyed" with negative press? You EARN reputation, it's not a right. Deal with it Mr S.

You also earn FUD on the internet.

Some more info on the Skunk Works, what it is and how to participate (http://mhall119.com/2012/11/welcome-to-the-skunk-works/).


404

josephmills
November 7th, 2012, 06:40 PM
Ok once again this has nothing to do with reputation(I dont think)
This has more to do with
1) getting more developers from the community synced up with the canonical people.
ex: Ubuntu TV There is a hand full of people that are working on ubuntu tv from canonical, which is great. But there is also a handful of community members working on this also. So Ubuntu tv is moving from Unity 2d to Unity 3d This is a huge step and 1000's of line of code. Say that someone works on the DVR lens(canonical) and someone works on the DVR lens (community). Because canonical can not talk about the DVR lens that there making.That means the community has no idea and there-for blindly are doing double the work. This is where something like SkunkWorks comes into play. If the community members that are coding everyday are able to talk with the canonical people about this lens then wam-o there is communication thus no 2x 3x ect the amount of work.

2) The press is the press and will always be the press. You are going to get good news and you are going to get bad news from the press/critics. This is a given. But say that there is a new feature that is coming to Ubuntu. Lets take the previews for instance. Now if there was no press for the reviews (pre-release) and there was press coverage at say UDS. Or something like that. Don't you think that more press would go to something like that ? Don't you think that it would take the "Hype" of Ubuntu to a new level ? Don't you think that more and more people would show up to these press releases ? And also Bang you would get all the new features (after bugs ect). But then there is the whole. "This is open source and everyone should see/test things" I agree with this. And so does everyone else So go join the SkunkWorks team and get to testing get to making new feature on top of feature just again to quote Mark

No NDA’s needed but we will need to trust you not to talk in your sleep
It is the same as before but This time you get canonical people also It makes you and Ubuntu stronger(I think). I mean If you are a tester and you do not have the time to fill out a simple wiki page. Are you really a good tester are you really docking things ect? kinda like weeding out the garden. IMHO this will also bring more powerful people in canonical because there is now a foot hole for a new developer to get involved with canonical right away. I mean should it be hard for a good developer to get into and share ideas with canonical? because it was before skunkworks. You where either a canonical employee or not.

So again this is not about Mac or windows or closing up software or not using gpl3 or anything like that.This is not about reputation this is not about canonical closing testers. This is a chance for BAMF-developer to not be spinning there wheels. And to give them a real shot at
1) showing of there work
2) getting into the community of canonical
3) Not wasting time
4) Making a better OS for all
5) Learning what is going on @ canonical for certain projects(again before this was not possible)