Why isn't computer science taught in schools?

[michelebachmann]

Compared to thirteen years ago, I think computer literacy has hardly changed. Why are educational systems still stuck in the 1950s? I don't think cost is really an excuse; I mean can't programming be taught directly from textbooks just like chemistry or math without ever touching a computer?

[vexorian]

You mean US schools don't teach it?

I learned programming at my Bolivian school (private though), more than a decade ago. Thanks, now I feel old.

[qamelian]

The high school I went to hear in Nova Scotia started teaching computer science back in 1982. :)

[whatthefunk]

Compared to thirteen years ago, I think computer literacy has hardly changed. Why are educational systems still stuck in the 1950s? I don't think cost is really an excuse; I mean can't programming be taught directly from textbooks just like chemistry or math without ever touching a computer?

Not really. A lot of people have to actually do something to learn it. Simply studying a computer language and never using it would be a massive waste of time and resources.

I agree thought that schools should teach basic computer science. With the availability of low cost simple computers these days, cost is less of an issue than it was in the past. Running an OS with a minimal DE and only programs designed to teach programming would not take much computing power at all.

[phrak]

I graduated in 01 and Keyboarding (i.e typing 101) was an elective...

[lisati]

I started learning programming 30-something years ago at school when it was rare for schools to have a computer. I believe the school I attended at the time was one of the first in the area to actually have a computer that they were brave enough to let the students use. If memory serves correctly it was one of the Wang 2200 (http://www.wang2200.org/) line which had built in cassette based storage (which could be controlled programmatically) and cost something like $NZ10,000 at the time.

[QIII]

You actually had computers???

We had terminals linked to a main frame in the city via acoustic coupling devices.

Jealous!!

[afixane]

(( This post is a bit out off topic and may contain grammatical error ))

I'm a bit jealous with whoever that live in western country. In Indonesia, you learn M$ Office at junior high school, and spent 3 year in elementary school just to learn how to use Windows (like shutdown, change wallpaper, etc) and MS Paint.

[Primefalcon]

My High school in Australia didn't even teach computers 15 years ago, they had a room of macs that they taught wordproccensing on for 15 mins per week, and students were barred from the room for the rest of the time.

Pity kids that ever go to Shoalhaven High tbh.... Late 90's and I remember one teacher even saying only idiots would bother with computers....

[Paqman]

It is taught in schools in the UK, but there's been a lot of talk lately about how rubbish the curriculum is. From the sound of it it's essentially training in how to drive MS Office.

That situation is the motivation behind the creation of the Raspberry Pi. They want kids to have access to a machine they can fiddle about with, although personally I don't think that's a hardware problem). If the Raspberry Pi people want the device to actually do something for kids they need to do a lot more, for example provide a full set of lesson plans and resources for teachers. Just making the boards and expecting the community to do everything else isn't nearly enough.

[mbarland]

My High school in Australia didn't even teach computers 15 years ago, they had a room of macs that they taught wordproccensing on for 15 mins per week, and students were barred from the room for the rest of the time.

Pity kids that ever go to Shoalhaven High tbh.... Late 90's and I remember one teacher even saying only idiots would bother with computers....

Similar experiences at my schools, also 15+ years ago now. We had computer labs, played some educational games, and used them to look up library books (or use those new fangled cd-rom encyclopedias!). But I don't remember doing muchproductive learning on them, that was all done at home. I do recall really enjoying the T1 line that the school had installed in the mid to late 90's, when I was running a 28.8k at home. Ah, how quaint. :D

[mips]

In primary school (early 80's) we had ZX Spectrums, in hight school we had Apple IIe/c computers. The computer training consisted of LOGO and word processing. During lunch break and after school on tue&thu (sports days) the class was also open to anyone and you could pretty much do what you wanted on the computers.

[vasa1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CM1W_qFLZM

[DingusFett]

In my high school in Australia, 12 years ago, for grades year 11 and 12 there were a few computer-based subjects that were options, but they were only very basic things, no programming at all.

[Bachstelze]

Like a lot of people here, I got to mess around with computers a lot during primary and secondary school. I would hardly call that "computer science", though. Need I remind you what Dijkstra said about computer science and astronomy?

But of course this society doesn't want people like Dijkstra. It wants people like those who made Apple, Amazon, and Google. Companies that made tremendous contributions to society, like allowing you to lose several years' worth of data just because someone wants to have a laugh.

EDIT: Some time ago, I read an article telling how a lot of Silicon Valley executives (in particular, executives at the aforementioned companies) were sending their children to schools where computers are banned. One of the reasons invoked was "They don't need to learn how to use computers, we make them dumb easy to use." They want everyone to be computer-illiterate, including their own children.

EDIT2: Here's the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html

And the exact quote is:


And where advocates for stocking classrooms with technology say children need computer time to compete in the modern world, Waldorf parents counter: what’s the rush, given how easy it is to pick up those skills?

“It’s supereasy. It’s like learning to use toothpaste,” Mr. Eagle said. “At Google and all these places, we make technology as brain-dead easy to use as possible. There’s no reason why kids can’t figure it out when they get older.”

[lisati]

You actually had computers???

We had terminals linked to a main frame in the city via acoustic coupling devices.

Jealous!!

We had just the one, back in 1978. The year before, the class had to make do with "portapunch" cards, using a dialect of Fortran, and which were dropped off at one of the local banks. The results were picked up a day or two later. Sometimes you got lucky and ended up with a working program. More likely there were errors, sometimes caused by a card getting mangled in the card reader.

[meathdeath]

Not really. A lot of people have to actually do something to learn it. Simply studying a computer language and never using it would be a massive waste of time and resources.

I agree thought that schools should teach basic computer science. With the availability of low cost simple computers these days, cost is less of an issue than it was in the past. Running an OS with a minimal DE and only programs designed to teach programming would not take much computing power at all.

I completely agree... computer these days are so inexpensive and widely available there is no excuse for not having one.

[Jakin]

From around 5th (elementary) and through middle school, we had a mass of NeXT computers and macintosh systems, we were taught quite alot in our schools, if you cared to learn.

Then when i hit highschool, bam! Nothing but crappy dell computers... so sad :(

[Drenriza]

Not really. A lot of people have to actually do something to learn it. Simply studying a computer language and never using it would be a massive waste of time and resources.

Whats the difference in that and learning math or chemistry you will never use?

Public schools are in my eyes a massive waste of time 90% of the time.

Schools are intended to teach you how to prepare for a life after school.

#1 They don't teach you how to create a job application.
#2 They don't teach you home economic. How to plan out a month based on a income.
#3 They teach math you will never use.
#4 They teach chemistry you will never use.
#5 They hardly teach you anything IT related.
#6 They don't teach you your rights.
#7 They don't teach you how to plan your carrier path.

And i can go on and on. 90% of my time in school i wasn't their, why? It was a pure waste of my time. Also here you get your exam in the 9'th and 10'th grade.
I was bumped up from 9'th to 10'th so didn't have to take the exam, and didn't finish 10'th because again waste of time. So i don't have papers on this, but this is not a hindrance to me.

So where am i today? I'am soon done with a six year long study in computer science and have been recruited by a firm the second i'am finished to a 10.000$ job a month.

This in Denmark if anyone is wondering.

[Bachstelze]

Not really. A lot of people have to actually do something to learn it. Simply studying a computer language and never using it would be a massive waste of time and resources.

Studying "a computer language" is certainly not the way to go. Life is long. Languages come and go, and if you study one language and it becomes obsolete ten years down the road, you are toast. If anything, children should study algorithms. And no, that doesn't require computers, you can visualise the difference between insertion sort and selection sort with a deck of cards. Implementation on a computer (for example to test the algorithms on large data sets) is possible, but the emphasis should not be on the language.

And besides that of course they should learn how computers and the Internet work. This also requires little, if any, usage of an actual computer. What you need is to think. But as I said in my previous messages, thinking is not very valued nowadays...

[Drenriza]

Studying "a computer language" is certainly not the way to go. Life is long. Languages come and go, and if you study one language and it becomes obsolete ten years down the road, you are toast. If anything, children should study algorithms. And no, that doesn't require computers, you can visualise the difference between insertion sort and selection sort with a deck of cards. Implementation on a computer (for example to test the algorithms on large data sets) is possible, but the emphasis should not be on the language.

And besides that of course they should learn how computers and the Internet work. This also requires little, if at all, usage of an actual computer. What you need is to think. Bus as I said in my previous messages, thinking is not very valued nowadays...

When it comes down to it, public schools are not good enough. They (in my opinion) teach a lot of useless stuff, and if they teach anything that can be considered important, they do it on a level that is so low that it's pointless from the get go. What kids get out of schools is social qualities by interacting with other kids.

But also in my opinion children / kids / teenagers (i myself am 23 soon 24 and have a kid on 2) waste a lot of time on useless activities. Am i a super strict parent? No. But will i teach my kid math, english, economic, computer science and so on myself, definitely. Because (here) public / private schools is something you need to attend to by law, but i have not yet seen a school that gives kids the quality of teaching i think they should get.

And when i see the movie "waiting for superman" i think it was about American schools, my jaw just hit the ground.

[Bigtime_Scrub]

I learned computer science throughtout school. Learned how to get around and the basics in middle school on some really old school Mac's and then later in high school I learned C++. Keep in mind that I went to some really crappy inner city public schools in America.

[vexorian]

Like a lot of people here, I got to mess around with computers a lot during primary and secondary school. I would hardly call that "computer science", though. Need I remind you what Dijkstra said about computer science and astronomy?
Learning to program is not CS. But even though the OP said computer science (s)he seemed to mean programming, so we went on.

[Paqman]

If anything, children should study algorithms.

Interesting idea, but possibly difficult to make interesting to most kids. I think it'd be worth studying this kind of thing in Maths, as things like serieses use the same concepts.

[Bachstelze]

Interesting idea, but possibly difficult to make interesting to most kids. I think it'd be worth studying this kind of thing in Maths, as things like serieses use the same concepts.

As I am sure you know, CS and math have a large are of overlap (some even say CS is a branch of math). Algorithms is one of them, ultimately it doesn't matter how you call it... And no, I'm not sure it would require a lot of effort to make it interesting. Give kids a deck of cards and ask them to sort it, they will probably use insertion sort. Then show them selection sort and ask which one they think is better.

[vexorian]

It is lame to teach algorithms without a programming language. It is great and possible to first teach the algorithms but making sure it is not specific to a programming language, but it is good to let them implement the algorithm too. Because seeing results makes a world of difference.

The programming language should certainly not be anything close to the Javas, Cs or pythons.

It should be something like turtle art.

Anyway, look at this: https://www.nonamesite.com

[Bachstelze]

It is lame to teach algorithms without a programming language. It is great and possible to first teach the algorithms but making sure it is not specific to a programming language, but it is good to let them implement the algorithm too. Because seeing results makes a world of difference.

Did I say otherwise? What I said is that we shouldn't teach the language for its own sake. There is no need to know about memory allocation in C or exception handling in Python. Only if you decide to be a programmer will you study those things.

By the way, I think Python is perfectly fine. With graphics libraries such as graphviz, it allows all the visualisation one needs, while in addition being very powerful.

[Paqman]

By the way, I think Python is perfectly fine. With graphics libraries such as graphviz, it allows all the visualisation one needs, while in addition being very powerful.

Tbh, I think something robotic like Lego Mindstorms programmed by something like Scratch would be the way to start them off. Robotics is all about applied algorithms.

[aysiu]

Seems to be a little ambiguity in this thread about whether we're talking computers in general or programming.

Also, are you talking about mandating classes or just offering them? Most schools I've worked in or visited have at least one computer science or programming class, but it's optional. The only people who take it are the ones who would be studying it on their own anyway.

I did take one computer science class in high school (studying Pascal, which I'm not sure anyone uses any more). It was a very valuable class to take. First of all, it taught me how to think in loops and arrays. More importantly, it taught me that I do not want to be a programmer.

[jockyburns]

At secondary school in the early 70's, my Maths teacher, designed and built a computer in a cupboard. Once a week we'd be soldering and, nand and nor gates, from transistors, resistors and capacitors. He checked the finished article to make sure it would work as intended, before putting it into the box of tricks in the cupboard. The computer had a load of switches and lights on the front of it and displayed answers in binary. It was programmed via the switches and could do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. It had two speeds, Slow and even slower. But for , what must have been 1970 -71, He 'd already envisaged a TV screen monitor, mouse (or joystick) speech recognition, the internet (although he didn't call it that, suffice to say that computers would be able to talk to each other across the world) He did envisage a time when computers would be portable and would work via radio communication (wifi) and said probably in our lifetime we'd have at least one computer at home.
I wish I could go back in time to those long gone schooldays and take my computer and mobile phone with me to show him. :):)

[Bachstelze]

Most schools I've worked in or visited have at least one computer science or programming class, but it's optional. The only people who take it are the ones who would be studying it on their own anyway.

And then we end up with people who think it's perfectly okay to sign up on something where anyone can remotely wipe your laptop...

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

.....can't programming be taught directly from textbooks just like chemistry or math without ever touching a computer?

When I took chemistry we had lab work to do; therefore, I don't understand what you mean by your statement.

Personally, I learn best by doing, failing, and learning from my failure.

I may think I understand how something works by reading a textbook; however, when I put my understanding to the test by actually doing something I may find I didn't understand how it actually works.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

.....I wish I could go back in time to those long gone schooldays and take my computer and mobile phone with me to show him. :):)

I had a similar experience in the 1970's. For some reason, I don't think my teacher would have been surprised. :) Maybe he would be impressed by how small they are, and also confused by what little they do with over 1000 times as much memory and CPU speed.

:lolflag:

[marlow59]

I think that programs should focus a little more on theoretical concepts and ideas instead of orienting students to use MS, or office or whatever under the pretext that it is some sort of "mainstream", not to mention the budged allowed to licenses and stuff that could be saved. Rasberry Pi seems an encouraging idea to start with, opensource, cheap and offering students the chance to have more control on their machines hence understanding that things are not always done by clicking in some wizard program or whatever.

[sa2.14]

Aw, been going on about this for years. The schools are to busy implementing social constructs, instead of sticking to the primary task of turning out a well rounded student versed in a basic education. Simple as that.

[KiwiNZ]

I Would prefer to see schools concentrate on the basics, language, Mathematics, sciences etc etc. I would often interview candidates for roles that were good at computing but could barely compose a sentence or use correct speech etc.

[sffvba[e0rt]

I did take one computer science class in high school (studying Pascal, which I'm not sure anyone uses any more).

Good old Borland Turbo Pascal :)


I Would prefer to see schools concentrate on the basics, language, Mathematics, sciences etc etc. I would often interview candidates for roles that were good at computing but could barely compose a sentence or use correct speech etc.

Did you make sure the candidate knows the language you need? :p


404

[Dlambert]

Because only a few actually wish to learn. I taught myself.

[KiwiNZ]

Good old Borland Turbo Pascal :)



Did you make sure the candidate knows the language you need? :p


404

Yep my language when things go wrong, unfortunately it wears the beeeep machine out:P

[uRock]

When I took chemistry we had lab work to do; therefore, I don't understand what you mean by your statement.

Personally, I learn best by doing, failing, and learning from my failure.

I may think I understand how something works by reading a textbook; however, when I put my understanding to the test by actually doing something I may find I didn't understand how it actually works.

+1 Every IT related class I have taken has required labs. From basic A+ and Cisco PC Trouble Shooting and Repair to Network Forensics. I can't imagine trying to learn these skills without actually doing them as we went. Not to mention being tested on ability to do the tasks, not just answering questions on paper.

[t0p]

Judging from a lot of the posts in this thread, I am shocked at how little computer teaching has progressed since I was at school.

I guess my snobby, fee-paying school was an exception - in the 80s we had a computer room that contained maybe 25 BBC-B microcomputers. We were taught about how to draw up and use flow charts, but most of our computer education was hands-on. As part of the GCE (ancient exam system inflicted on 16-year old Brits back then) we had to actually plan out and write a program that did something non-trivial. I planned a translation program, English to French. I never actually finished writing the program, but my flow-charts and written descriptions were good enough to earn a B grade!

Is that what's going on in US schools - teaching "programming" by using flow-charts and descriptions rather than coding? That would be awful; I'm the first to admit I shouldn't have got a B grade for my effort. To learn how to use a computer, you gotta use a computer. Same as you get a driving license by actual driving as opposed to simply reading about it.

[Jay MC]

That situation is the motivation behind the creation of the Raspberry Pi. They want kids to have access to a machine they can fiddle about with, although personally I don't think that's a hardware problem). If the Raspberry Pi people want the device to actually do something for kids they need to do a lot more, for example provide a full set of lesson plans and resources for teachers. Just making the boards and expecting the community to do everything else isn't nearly enough.

Hmm... I've heard this said about the Raspberry Pi before, and I don't think it's quite fair.

Most children have access to a PC in the home, but not all have unlimited access or "full tinkering rights". In many cases, the PC primarily belongs to Mum or Dad, who don't want to buy a replacement. But if your child has a £15 Raspberry Pi, you would be quite relaxed if they wanted to turn it into some kind of mini weather station, to be installed on the side of the house for two weeks (good luck doing that with Dad's Dell!).

In terms of secondary education, I'm not aware of UK state schools routinely putting a PC on every single desk. With Raspberry Pi, a secondary school with 500 pupils can now afford to do exactly that for £7,500. For context, the same school would have an annual budget in the low millions (about £5k per pupil on average).

You're right when you say that this isn't enough - lesson plans, etc., are arguably more important - but you can't expect one charitable foundation to single-handedly solve the whole problem.

Imagine a parallel universe where pens and paper are a premium commodity. A charity comes along that finds a way of making pens and paper affordable for all the kids. For the first time ever, it's realistic for all schoolchildren to have their own exercise books and a couple of biros each. You wouldn't turn to that charity and say, "This isn't good enough - we still have to work out what the kids will be writing down, and how the teachers will mark it. Why haven't you done anything about that?!" You would recognise that they had made an important contribution, and encourage others to capitalise on it.

[Paqman]

With Raspberry Pi, a secondary school with 500 pupils can now afford to do exactly that for £7,500. For context, the same school would have an annual budget in the low millions (about £5k per pupil on average).


I put it more like £53,000:

19" Monitor = £60
Keyboard and mouse = £10
SD card = £5
USB power supply = £5
Pi = £26

Still cheaper than desktop PCs, for sure. They have stated that their objective is eventually for one to be given to every student in the UK, which presumably means they wouldn't be kept in computer labs and the kids could take them home. If the RPI foundation are smart they'll make sure all the software is available for x86 and Windows, so that kids can use the school's desktop machines when at school and their Pi when at home.


You're right when you say that this isn't enough - lesson plans, etc., are arguably more important - but you can't expect one charitable foundation to single-handedly solve the whole problem.

My point was that the reason more kids don't hack away in their bedrooms isn't a hardware problem, and treating it as such isn't likely to achieve much.

It will be interesting to see what they provide with their educational release. If it's just the hardware it would be a huge missed opportunity IMO.

[fontis]

Almost every school in Sweden has some form of computer class put in the curriculum but nothing requiring programming is mandatory. Which makes 100% sense. Those classes are generally elective, as is network classes.

As someone else said, it's honestly a huge waste of time and resources to teach everyone something which at the moment is not really necessary for most people. You don't need to know how to program (thankfully) to use a computer.

[Jay MC]

@Paqman

LOL - I did forget peripherals, guilty as charged :D

Why £26 though? You've priced for the Model B (admittedly, the monitor, etc., is a bigger deal!).


My point was that the reason more kids don't hack away in their bedrooms isn't a hardware problem, and treating it as such isn't likely to achieve much.

I guess I refer again to my point about homes. Lots of 9-10 year olds have access to a PC, but not necessarily tinkering rights (where "tinkering" might include something as simple as installing something new off the web).

The amount of access they get is important too. I actually think this is one area where things have got worse since I was a nipper. Back in the 80s, I was one of three brothers who got a Commodore +4 and then (much later) an Amiga 500 as joint Christmas presents. They were very much ours, and Mum and Dad had no interest in them (apart from a brief period when they got addicted to Icicle Works).

But then, the era of the "household PC" began, and they weren't toys any more. Our first PC was very much Dad's to begin with, and I remember pretending I wanted to use Encarta for some homework so I could get some time with it! Luckily, as time went by, I was the one who showed most interest, and it almost became mine by default.

I think the rise of the internet, its importance as a lifestyle tool, and the perceived dangers of it have exacerbated this trend. I don't think many eight year olds get their own PC for Christmas. Most households have laptops lying around, but they don't belong to the kids. In many cases, they're work laptops that the parents are allowed to take home. I had dinner recently with an older friend, who has children aged 9 and 10. While we were talking, the younger child came downstairs and asked if he could "go on Dad's laptop for a bit". That kind of environment isn't necessarily conducive to "hacking in bedrooms". But with Raspberry Pi, you can have your laptop for serious stuff, and give your kids a £15 PC each.

[aysiu]

As someone else said, it's honestly a huge waste of time and resources to teach everyone something which at the moment is not really necessary for most people. Not sure I agree with this. A lot of stuff you're forced to study in school is not really necessary for most people. I use absolutely 0% of the biology, physics, chemistry, and calculus I had to take in high school. I am not a programmer, and I didn't enjoy taking computer science, but I am glad I did take it for one year.

Honestly, a lot of kids won't even know if they like programming unless they have to try it, and you can't make an honest assignment on whether it's for you or not unless you see what it's really like.

[fontis]

Not sure I agree with this. A lot of stuff you're forced to study in school is not really necessary for most people. I use absolutely 0% of the biology, physics, chemistry, and calculus I had to take in high school. I am not a programmer, and I didn't enjoy taking computer science, but I am glad I did take it for one year.

Honestly, a lot of kids won't even know if they like programming unless they have to try it, and you can't make an honest assignment on whether it's for you or not unless you see what it's really like.

Well those subjects you mentioned are essential knowledge of how the world works. Studying a programming language isn't a necessity when it comes to essential knowledge just as little as having VCR class would be.

Perhaps you feel you don't use the knowledge gained in biology, physics, chemistry and calculus but that couldn't be farther from the truth. Those subjects are all teaching you how the universe around you works.

Without biology, you wouldn't understand the reproductive system, the basis of life be it photosynthesis or whatever. Without physics you wouldn't understand the basic mechanisms of gravity and everything around you and without the level of basic chemistry you wouldn't even understand what water is and what everything is composed of. Without math you wouldn't be able to function in society.

And the list goes on for the other subjects too.
Yet without programming, you wouldn't notice anything... other than the fact that you don't know how to program should the opportunity arise :)

I think the subjects we are taught in school now all serve to be part of the very basic level of knowledge needed to live and be merry, anything on top if it is simply just adding more niche-like knowledge, which falls more into a specialized career choice rather than being covered by the basic "**** you should know" paragraph :P

[aysiu]

Basic math, basic biology, basic chemistry--sure. But I was taught all that in elementary and middle school. High school math, biology, chemistry, physics? Not so useful. Sorry. Not useful to me, anyway.

[snip3r8]

Like a lot of people here, I got to mess around with computers a lot during primary and secondary school. I would hardly call that "computer science", though. Need I remind you what Dijkstra said about computer science and astronomy?

But of course this society doesn't want people like Dijkstra. It wants people like those who made Apple, Amazon, and Google. Companies that made tremendous contributions to society, like allowing you to lose several years' worth of data just because someone wants to have a laugh.

EDIT: Some time ago, I read an article telling how a lot of Silicon Valley executives (in particular, executives at the aforementioned companies) were sending their children to schools where computers are banned. One of the reasons invoked was "They don't need to learn how to use computers, we make them dumb easy to use." They want everyone to be computer-illiterate, including their own children.

EDIT2: Here's the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html

And the exact quote is:

If that is the view of Google then may Apple hold the patent to rectangles forever


I mean this from the (former)CEO of a company that creates mind numbingly simple to use devices like an iPad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCDkxUbalCw

I kind of feel sick now because im using Chrome.

And on the Apple note "One girl, whose father works as an Apple engineer, says he sometimes asks her to test games he is debugging." - they make games? other than chess?

[vexorian]

It's the view of one googler. I sort of expect a sizable bunch of google employees to think the opposite way (and know a couple that most likely would). The article talks about silly-con valley in general, including apple. Maybe there is something in their water.

[snip3r8]

It's the view of one googler. I sort of expect a sizable bunch of google employees to think the opposite way (and know a couple that most likely would). The article talks about silly-con valley in general, including apple. Maybe there is something in their water.
That would explain the strange behaviour of hollywood actors as well, after all it is also in California.

[asmoore82]

Compared to thirteen years ago, I think computer literacy has hardly changed.

I think you've already switched gears on us. Computer literacy and computer science are different things. But anyway, I think a lot of students got the short end of the stick for computer literacy because instead of being taught generic computer concepts they were taught the exact look and feel of one particular proprietary OS. Those who fought for this preached the value of "real world" experience, but of course by the time the students graduate into the "real world," a newer, shinier, more bloated interface is on the market. Also, those pulling for such fallacy are most likely to be the ones who would lock down the students' interfaces until they all resemble something from the mid 90's, and further down the rabbit hole they go ...


I mean can't programming be taught directly from textbooks just like chemistry or math without ever touching a computer?

Now you're more on the subject of computer science. The problem with your question is that it makes the assumption that chemistry or math from a textbook alone is a working model. I took chemistry class in a lab with dangerous chemicals and live flames. Likewise math needed help along the way from rulers, protractors, calculators, etc.

There is some value in recognizing that the most important part of teaching programming is the logical analysis and pragmatic problem solving that happens in the mind of the programmer long before the computer does anything.

For some good food for thought on the broader topic of educational pitfalls, I recommend googling for videos of Sir Ken Robinson.

P.S. On a 2nd look, the Op has a very interesting username to bring up the topic of better education. Kind of a paradox really. Should under-staffed, under-funded, under-appreciated, and scapegoated educators attempt to squeeze in top notch computer science before or after mandatory bible stories?

If Open Source would just take over Gov't and Education, it could all be fixed relatively quickly :D.

[ade234uk]

Compared to thirteen years ago, I think computer literacy has hardly changed. Why are educational systems still stuck in the 1950s? I don't think cost is really an excuse; I mean can't programming be taught directly from textbooks just like chemistry or math without ever touching a computer?

I had some family around last week. The house was hectic. Because there was only one laptop in the house, there was fighting amongst the kids to get on the Flash games.

There was a PC upstairs which had not been turned on for months, so I decided to give them a computing lesson in how to install an opearating system, to a 9 and 12 year old and give their parents some peace.

Before we started, I asked them what they knew about computers and what they had been taught at school. I was shocked with the answers, "We know how to make a powerpoint and copy and paste, and we know how to play games, that was about it.

Now at that age, I was using a BBC Micro at school and learning BASIC programming. Am I being harsh?

After taking the cover off the PC and showing them the inside and pointing out what each part was, and also installing Ubuntu they actually learnt more in 3 hours, than they did in their whole term at school in computing.

It's not the schools fault or the teachers, they work bloody hard and have to follow the curriculum. Because the schools are Windows only these kids are not being given the freedom to experiment and break things, which is a shame.

The PC's are probably locked down to death as well, due to the Virus worries. You start to wonder what the point of teaching IT is at all.

The education system as regards computing in this country needs changing and the schools need to look at alternatives.

Knowing how to create a Powerpoint, write a letter in Word is simply not going to cut it. There is so much that could be taught using free software that are the building blocks to everything we have today.

[aysiu]

I wrote this four years ago. Unfortunately, it still applies today:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

[jemadux]

cuz idustry want the users to use windows for work and school teachers/proff want to use the bussiness .... somethink like that say Richard Stallman in his talks

[Nixarter]

Well I had computer science classes from elementary school up through HS (and, of course, college). I learned computer troubleshooting, programming, parts of computers, vertain programs (MS stuff, Photoshop, Premiere, etc.), circuits, and so on. We had a computer lab devoted to it, and I spent a lot of time there during empty spots on my schedule. we worked on projects for competitions and whatnot. That's Tennessee. Dunno what you yanks are doing :p

[deadflowr]

It really depends on where you live. My local school district has been teaching computer science for a long time. aside from core courses(math, english, science, history) most school districts have carte blanche in terms of what's in the curriculum. If your local district doesn't include computer science, literacy, or program courses, and it really irks you, take it up with your local board of education. They set the overall course structure at your local school.

[Jakin]

It really depends on where you live.


That really must be it, in my area we have had large rooms devoted to computer science- even to the point of transporting to career centers for half the school day, to be taught everything about computers and the software, ect, the board of education pushes for it. That was when i started 4th and 5th grades (mid 90s), and then on- recently i heard that schools and the board are actually even recommending students of all ages to bring laptops and touch pad devices to school to help in classes (not just computer tech classes); If parents can afford.
Whether or not thats a good idea.... thats anyone's guess.

By the time i started highschool, half the day comprised of full computer usage- from office to engineering. I do wonder how many of my class mates really learned anything other then web surfing though- the computers were all networked for broadband... (obviously with alot of restrictions on websites you could visit- but if they did learn anything, it was how to bypass alot of that security)

[N00b-un-2]

I am dumbfounded by the lack of computer literacy. I am going to school working on a CIS degree at the moment on my way to getting a BAS in software engineering. When I was in grade school, in 5th grade when I was 10 and 11 years old, my semester long project in computer class was to write a fully functional website with no less than 5 pages that could be navigated to and from one another with graphics, sound (midi), frames and at least one external hyperlink and a link to my student email address. Mind you, we did all of this work in a text editor on old Apple Macintosh computers. If I remember, the newest computers had OS7 on them. Netscape was king and we learned how to write HTML back when the internet was open and transparent.

Fast forward to today and I am learning a few different languages in school and have yet to come across one that challenges me. Most of these people can't even create a spam filter in their email or properly format a document in word according to APA standards. Most of them require assistance even logging in to the machines in the computer lab, and then spend the vast majority of their time in class looking at used cars on Craig's List or checking their facebook profile.

What happened?

[uRock]

I don't expect schools to teach kids to do IT maintenance any more than I expect them to teach kids to work on my car. Make it a high school elective, so those who want to learn can, but don't force it.

[Mikeb85]

When I was in high school (not too long ago, graduated 2002), we were required to be able to use MS Office, type 60 words per minute, and create a basic web page. If you couldn't do these things, you failed...

[WinterMadness]

programming is taught, it just depends on what school you goto. My highschool in the middle of nowhere pennsylvania had a C++ and web design(not programming, but still computer related). As for a requirement, i dunno. Perhaps.

Computer science isnt actually very useful to people who dont want to be programmers, and not all programmers know computer science. being a programmer and knowing computer science are two different things

[uRock]

Computer science isnt actually very useful to people who dont want to be programmers, and not all programmers know computer science. being a programmer and knowing computer science are two different things

+1 It'd be like expecting kids to learn automotive, when they may never be bothered with such things in the future.

[BrokenKingpin]

My high school offered a number of programming classes. I took them all, which is how I knew I wanted to be a programmer for a living.