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bailout
June 22nd, 2006, 03:38 AM
at communication? Mailing lists and IRC???????

I think one of the reasons Ubuntu has been popular is these forums make it easy for noobs to get help and info. Along with the unofficial guide originally and nw the wiki and official guides. However, the favoured means of communication in most of the linux world still seems to be mailing lists.

KDE has forums at the main kde site but they are virtually dead. Every kde app I have looked at doesn't recomend the kde forums but mailing lists. I joined the digikam one and it is a really inefficient way of getting information. There is no way of searching or browsing old topics so people keep asking the same questions. Hardly anyone uses it because signing up to lists is such a pain.

Similarly I have installed Kmymoney recently. It seems a great program but there are inevitably some questions and suggestions I have but again they use mailing lists and it is hence too much of a pain to sign up. I don't want to be subscibed to lots of lists just to ask a few questions.

Is it just the traditional Linux nerds competition to make using linux as difficult and geeky as possible?

clparker
June 22nd, 2006, 03:42 AM
Part of the problem really lies in the fact that few things in linux are point and click easy. I doubt it has much to do with people trying to make things difficult, just that its the nature of the beast, and again we were all newbies at some point, no?

glotz
June 22nd, 2006, 03:44 AM
Yes.

mscman
June 22nd, 2006, 03:45 AM
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
:confused: :confused: :confused:

You're using the "current" communication right now! Ubuntu's forums are the BEST that I've found as far as support is concerned. I would take these forums over ANY corporate support company.

Mailing lists and IRC are used a lot because they provide anonymity for those who want it. If you can list some more "bleeding edge" form of communication, please do, as I'm sure somebody would like to employ it.

IYY
June 22nd, 2006, 03:52 AM
Linux users are often traditionalists. They're not doing this to make it hard on the newbies, they're just doing what's easiest for themselves.

Jucato
June 22nd, 2006, 03:58 AM
at communication? Mailing lists and IRC???????

I think one of the reasons Ubuntu has been popular is these forums make it easy for noobs to get help and info. Along with the unofficial guide originally and nw the wiki and official guides. However, the favoured means of communication in most of the linux world still seems to be mailing lists.

KDE has forums at the main kde site but they are virtually dead. Every kde app I have looked at doesn't recomend the kde forums but mailing lists. I joined the digikam one and it is a really inefficient way of getting information. There is no way of searching or browsing old topics so people keep asking the same questions. Hardly anyone uses it because signing up to lists is such a pain.

Similarly I have installed Kmymoney recently. It seems a great program but there are inevitably some questions and suggestions I have but again they use mailing lists and it is hence too much of a pain to sign up. I don't want to be subscibed to lots of lists just to ask a few questions.

Is it just the traditional Linux nerds competition to make using linux as difficult and geeky as possible?

I think you have to qualify what kind of information that you are trying to acquire. Apart from a few other distros (notably Debian), I recognize a pattern as to which type of communication is preferred for a certain type of information:
1. Mailing lists - are usually used by developers and everything else related to development, like bugs, suggestions, etc. I think they prefer mailing lists because the work that they do needs a bit more security or an atmosphere of professionalism.
2. IRC - again, mostly used by developers, especially when meetings are involved. But it can also be used by community members to air their opinions/views towards developers. Can also be used in community meetings. Very little support/questions are answered here because of time limitations. (But what's so old fashioned about IRC? no body's complaining about IM's, but it's almost the same).
3. Forums - general support and community area. Most distros have this, but the type of forum varies. The most unfriendly type of forum I've ever seen is the one that SourceForge.net uses. It's more like a bulletin than a forum. In a forum, anything and everything can happen. That's why devs tend to shy away from this type when they can.

It's not a competition to make Linux as geeky as possible. It's just that some types of information are best served/requested in a particular type of communication.

briancurtin
June 22nd, 2006, 04:02 AM
mailing lists and IRC are simple, and minimal. most people dont need flashy forums with all sorts of crap in them. mailing lists just get straight to the point and dont have all of the useless graphical fluff.

Stormy Eyes
June 22nd, 2006, 04:36 AM
It's not like newbies bother searching the forum. At least, I've rarely noticed newbies searching this forum.

Fac51
June 22nd, 2006, 05:02 AM
i agree, communication on linux is behind, but i think that it is intentional, and for good reason;)

mmmichael
June 22nd, 2006, 05:09 AM
It's not like newbies bother searching the forum. At least, I've rarely noticed newbies searching this forum.

You only notice when they DON'T search.
I haven't had an ubuntu-related problem that I couldn't solve by searching this forum.

disturbed1
June 22nd, 2006, 06:12 AM
I think it's a good form of PEBKAC birth control 8-)

Those who want it to work, will search out and find answers, those that are unable to use common computing skills to solve problems should go here (http://www.googleityoumoron.com/)

23meg
June 22nd, 2006, 06:28 AM
I think one of the reasons Ubuntu has been popular is these forums make it easy for noobs to get help and info. Along with the unofficial guide originally and nw the wiki and official guides. However, the favoured means of communication in most of the linux world still seems to be mailing lists. For developers, yes, and it makes sense: they're easier and cheaper to operate, they're text only so get straight to the point, they get archived locally in your own computer so you can search the archives much faster locally and take them wherever you want, so on.


KDE has forums at the main kde site but they are virtually dead. Every kde app I have looked at doesn't recomend the kde forums but mailing lists. I joined the digikam one and it is a really inefficient way of getting information. There is no way of searching or browsing old topics so people keep asking the same questions. Hardly anyone uses it because signing up to lists is such a pain.In most cases, upstream isn't the ideal way of getting end user support for Linux apps; instead, distro communities are. Upstream is best for technical queries regarding the application or bug reporting, and there are exceptions to even that (seen Launchpad?)

It's the distros that package and deliver software to the masses, so communities that form around distros are much more ready to help you with most practical problems. Since the source is open, and the software is shared without restrictions, no single author is necessarily the best authority on the software or the best place you can go for help.



Similarly I have installed Kmymoney recently. It seems a great program but there are inevitably some questions and suggestions I have but again they use mailing lists and it is hence too much of a pain to sign up. I don't want to be subscibed to lots of lists just to ask a few questions.
Tried going to their IRC channel and asking a question? Again, you don't need the upstream author directly, but if you did, you could drop in on IRC and likely get an answer in a few minutes. Try that with proprietary software.


Is it just the traditional Linux nerds competition to make using linux as difficult and geeky as possible?
No, it's that this is a different world than the one you're used to, with different ways of going about things.

rai4shu2
June 22nd, 2006, 07:27 AM
However, the favoured means of communication in most of the linux world still seems to be mailing lists.

Actually, there are Linux (and BSD) conventions every now and then where people can meet face-to-face. A lot can get done in that type of setting.

SilverTab
June 22nd, 2006, 07:40 AM
Im not a big fan of mailing list eighter...I'll take a forum over it anyday...

Sure no need for the fancy graphics etc.. but hey... Why not?

I mean most people nowadays are on DSL or Cable... Loading the ubuntu forum index takes what... 2 and a half seconds?? Even on a 56k I would still prefer a forum over a mailing list... but that's just me..I like the interface and usability better...

BTW if anyone know of a good GTK/Python/PyGTK forum, let me know :)

kabus
June 22nd, 2006, 09:16 AM
Mailing lists are superior to forums for several reasons:

You can archive posts locally so you don't depend on other people's servers or
are subjected to the whims of moderators who delete posts.

You can search your archive with far more sophisticated tools than any forum software offers.
You get all the information as plain text, so no web designer can force their font, layout and colour choices on you.
Plain text means better accessibility. Try reading a forum in a text browser, it's a mess.
No useless graphical crud like avatars
There's no easy way to edit or delete posts so people think twice before they hit the send button.

maagimies
June 22nd, 2006, 10:06 AM
Well, I don't understand this either.
Ubuntu and Gentoo (are there any other good linux forums?) have both very excellent forums, filled both with noobs and pros. Suse had an alright forums too, but most of the advices given there weren't so great.
I personally believe not having good forums is either some sort of elitism or sticking to your old ways.
When I was learning Debian, I searched and searched for a good Debian forum, but couln't manage to find any good ones. :mad:
Either they have lousy forums or they haven't listed the good ones at google ;)

Lord Illidan
June 22nd, 2006, 10:31 AM
I generally prefer forums, but I also recognise the advantages of mailing lists. The problem, I believe with many small apps, is that the devs cannot hope to host a forum just for 1 application. However, a mailing list is easier to do.

Mailing lists also have the advantage that one doesn't have to log onto a browser. All one needs is to have a good e-mail client. And this can operate from command line.

Kvark
June 22nd, 2006, 11:11 AM
BTW if anyone know of a good GTK/Python/PyGTK forum, let me know :)
http://wxforum.shadonet.com/
Well thats for wxWidgets, not PyGTK. But you get the same result with either of them because wxWidgets uses GTK on Linux just like PyGTK does. The only difference is that wxWidgets can use the native widgets on Windows or OSX instead so your program's user interface is cross platform without any extra effort from your side.


I can understand prefering online forums over mailing lists. But how did IRC end up in this thread? If you want instant help join an IRC chatroom where there are dozens or hundreds of people idling and ask a question. If anyone knows the answer they'll help you when they have time. To get the same chance to get help through other chat protocols such as MSN you would have to find the MSN IDs of dozens or hundreds of people, add them to your contact list and invite them all to a group conversation causing an extra popup just for your question for each of them even though most of them probably don't know the answer and then maybe the group conversation times out and kicks them before anyone gets time to answer.

MSN and other "more modern" chat protocols are fine when you want to talk about anything with specific persons. But when you want to talk about a specific topic with anyone then nothing beats an IRC chatroom.

fuscia
June 22nd, 2006, 11:20 AM
... or
are subjected to the whims of moderators who delete posts.

that's a good point. i don't like having someone else decide what i can and cannot read.


so people think twice before they hit the send button.


lol!

Johnsie
June 22nd, 2006, 12:01 PM
I think mailing lists are a little outdated. But then again, forums have been around for a long time too. I remmeber using WWWBoard (still one of my favourite forums) back in the mid 90's.

Forums have however evolved since those days whereas mailing lists remain more or less the same.

Technical support should be simple and accessible. That's why I think forums are the way forward.

However, technical things that involve small groups can use mailing lists because it gives a sense of privacy and more personal and direct communication between developers.

23meg
June 22nd, 2006, 12:08 PM
Another disadvantage of forums is that nobody cares for threading an retitling of discussions even when a threaded view is implemented, and the topic is often lost very quickly (you're looking at an example right now). Frankly it's hard to care due to the nature of HTTP; you have to send requests back and forth for each new query whereas email is asynchronous; you can work locally and update to the latest state of things whenever you want.

To be honest I can never make sense of a 15 page thread, ever, whereas I find a mailing list discussion with the equal number of posts much easier to scan through and put together in my head. This is both due to the way the medium affects the way people discuss, and due to the practical viewing conveniences and disadvantages of each medium.

bruce89
June 22nd, 2006, 12:23 PM
at communication? Mailing lists and IRC???????
This is interesting, as OpenStreetMap (http://www.openstreetmap.org/) recently opened a forum (http://www.levertons.net/osm/index.php), but there is some controversy (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/General_discussion) over it, as most of the people use Mailing Lists. I contribute to OSM, but the way.

Kimm
June 22nd, 2006, 01:04 PM
Can you suggest a better way to get information then?

I'd call IRC and Mailinglists a pretty good way... when an update is released, you get a mail, and when you find a bug, you file the bug in the projects bugzilla.
If you need help, you visit the projects IRC channel to find (sometimes) nice geeks that can help you out.

TeeAhr1
June 22nd, 2006, 10:40 PM
I get (and try to give) 80% of my help here on the forums. But I also subscribe to the TCLUG (http://www.tclug.org/) mailing list, and I love it. 90% of the stuff on the list is stuff that I'll rpobably never need to deal with, but you never know, and sometimes it's gold that I never knew about.

I don't find it "outdated" in the least, I think it's a very convienient way to do business. I mean, damn. I don't even have to do anything, the information literally comes to me. To get any more convienient, I'd need a USB port in my skull. Hmmm....

Virogenesis
June 22nd, 2006, 11:08 PM
RSS Feeds would be good for letting those know about any changes or updates.
Thats only good for one way traffic.

quixotic-cynic
October 11th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Kabus, these comments where opinion-based perhaps - some people (me, for one) may have an alternate opinion.


Mailing lists are superior to forums for several reasons:
You can archive posts locally so you don't depend on other people's servers or
are subjected to the whims of moderators who delete posts.

My e-mail server is IMAP - wouldn't be local & would slow down my email. For me data is safer on the ubuntuforums site than on my hdd.


You can search your archive with far more sophisticated tools than any forum software offers.

Only if you are 1337 enough


You get all the information as plain text, so no web designer can force their font, layout and colour choices on you.

I'm using my fonts and colours to view this site. Markup tags help me get the layout I want for my text.


Plain text means better accessibility. Try reading a forum in a text browser, it's a mess.

I find plain text less accessible - guess it's an opinion thing.


No useless graphical crud like avatars

Avartars are actually very useful, especially when you are bad with names.


There's no easy way to edit or delete posts so people think twice before they hit the send button.

Or, they can't provide useful updates and send mistakes by accident anyway.

n3tfury
October 11th, 2007, 07:54 PM
that's a hardcore bump.

he reeled you guys in like fishes with this thread.

reyfer
October 11th, 2007, 08:02 PM
I like the fact that quixotic-cynic, being true to his/her nick, is arguing a one year old post.