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ExSuSEusr
June 15th, 2012, 02:29 AM
Had a conversation with someone today about the value of education. College level education.

Now, by no means am I questioning whether or not someone should attend a university to better themselves - of course - that goes without saying.

But, given that most of - or at least a large number of us - are not working in the field we went to college for. I am curious that given the current conditions of the world - how has your field been effected?

For example: I have been told that if you are fluent in a particular language, say Java, you can actually beat out someone with a CS degree for a job?

I remember back-in-the-day when I was a sys admin - our programmers couldn't install a modem. But, they could cold fusion rings around any of us.

I no longer work in tech, but back then it seemed that the degree meant more than the experience (within reason). Now it seems that experience carries more weight than a degree.

My current field, this is the case - experience is king, regardless of what your degree is in.

So, what about your career field? Does your particular degree actually matter or are your employers looking for experience first (barring medical degrees, etc)?

Also consider that colleges are pumping out BS holders in astronomical numbers - so much so that the Bachelor's degree is essentially becoming the next "high school diploma" - meaning everyone and their brother has one.

What is the future of your field?

MisterGaribaldi
June 15th, 2012, 03:55 AM
Hmm...

I think a college education is an utter waste for most people. It is a complete money-making scam, especially as it is practiced in this country, and you'd do just as well to avoid it and, as one particular video on YouTube says, take the same money and invest in the stock market.

That being said, if you plan on going into a career (because you really *want* to do that) for which you are attending college, and this is a career that you cannot easily (or at all) pursue without a college education, then by all means go for it.

I'm certain most of you folks from outside the U.S. reading this right now are thinking "Is MisterGaribaldi out of his mind for saying going to college is a waste?" All I've got to say to you is how things are handled in your country vs. how they are here in the U.S. means you have no idea what a money-making racket it is -- for the most part -- in this country.

Recently, I was looking up costs of college education in Germany. At really nice, up-scale schools, you might have to spend something on the order of €1,000 a year. Here in the U.S., equivalent schools can cost 10 times that amount or more PER SEMESTER.

Honestly, why bother?

MisterGaribaldi
June 15th, 2012, 04:00 AM
The other thing is that the more people who have various levels of college education, the less valuable those degrees are. Right now, it practically seems like you need an Associates' just to push a broom. It's ridiculous!

It used to be a Bachelors meant something, but no more. That's just an "entry level" degree. You want a good degree, you either have to have a Masters or a Doctorate. What a waste!

Bachstelze
June 15th, 2012, 04:55 AM
For example: I have been told that if you are fluent in a particular language, say Java, you can actually beat out someone with a CS degree for a job?

Well, if someone has a CS degree and is not "fluent" in any language, you have to wonder what they have been doing during four years. For the most part, it is true that in the computing industry, people care about chat you can do, not really about your degree. This means that if you can show them that you are better than everyone else, they will take you regardless of formal education. The catch is that people who became really good in a CS-related field without a formal education are exceedingly rare.

Brimwylf
June 15th, 2012, 06:15 AM
I am majored in fine arts, yet I have pursued a programming career. I have never been asked for a degree, all I had to do was pass programming tests, which lead them to hiring me since I usually ace them in record time. This matters the first few jobs, after that experience speaks for itself. Again, no degree should be needed. As the first poster said, unless you want to pursue e career that *demands* a degree, it's a waste of money and especially time that could be spent on actually preparing for your career instead of attending mostly dull classes.

Megaptera
June 15th, 2012, 06:50 AM
I like it when people choose University because:
- either they love a subject and want to continue with their studies
- they are looking at a career where either a specific Degree is needed or Degree level education is required (eg career path for 'graduate entrants')

but I don't like it when people go to Uni 'cos they don't know what they want to do for a career and need three years to think about it! They're blocking someone else who may really want / need that place.

Paqman
June 15th, 2012, 08:12 AM
Now it seems that experience carries more weight than a degree.


As it should, the bottom line is about skills, and someone who's been working at something all day every day is likely going to be better at it than someone who's only covered it as part of a course.

I don't work in IT, I work in engineering, but in this industry there's a lot you can do without quals, but there is a ceiling that you'll hit. Experience will take you down one career track, but having a degree under your belt (and getting chartered or incorporated) opens different tracks to you.

QIII
June 15th, 2012, 08:31 AM
I disagree strongly with those who think College/University is unimportant.

There is more to life than just doing what it takes to get a job. That may really be secondary or tangential.

A well rounded education introduces the student to other cultures, to History, Philosophy, Art, Music, Literature, Science and Industry. In short, it develops the very things that make us human. One of my Professors used to say that one was not truly educated until he could speak another man's language.

It is true that many people end up in jobs that have very little, if anything at all, to do with their degrees - in name.

But an education has a benefit that is always helpful in any situation: learning how to think rationally and solve deliberately. It's not really mastery of a particular language I would find important in a new programmer -- it would be those two things.

But those who learn trades are not to be looked down on, because they generally learn the those very things, too. Tradesmen are invaluable to us and their skills and lives are every bit as worthwhile as anyone else's, even though they are often underrated. A mathematical whiz might be called a genius. I believe there is just as much genius to be found in a pipe fitter or a welder or an auto mechanic who can work wonders far beyond what anyone else in his trade can do.

College is NOT worthless. Neither is a trade school. Neither is learning to beat iron over an anvil under the tutelage of an illiterate back woods blacksmith. But how much better might that apprentice smithy appreciate the world around him if he had a PhD in Botany that he never did a damn thing with? Perhaps a lot. Perhaps no more at all. But it wouldn't hurt. He might find more value in a world full of flowers than the one I lived in populated with hand grenades and bayonets.

JDShu
June 15th, 2012, 08:49 AM
One point I want to make, because this seems to be misunderstood a lot.

In the US and probably most other places, a Doctorate degree is not something you achieve to get the highest level of education to show employers. Or something you do to get a very in-depth understanding of a field of study. The goal of a PhD program is only one thing. It trains you to become a "knowledge worker" where you spend your life doing original research and trying to expand the boundaries of human knowledge. It is a job track. Sure, many people do a PhD and then end up working in the industry, but that's because they either they were wrong in choosing to do a PhD or they failed to get a job in academia, since it is highly competitive. (Although sometimes, they stumble across something in their PhD research and decide to make a business out of it)

So don't compare a PhD to work experience in some industry. A PhD is work experience - in academia.

KiwiNZ
June 15th, 2012, 09:00 AM
I am no longer using my degrees. My sons will use their degrees when they finally complete their studies.

QIII
June 15th, 2012, 09:01 AM
You will have to trust me on this point: There are those who get PhDs who don't ever intend or want to be trapped in academia. Ever.

There is often more original and useful human knowledge to be discovered far from the artificial confines of ivy covered edifices than within them. Research and additions to the body of human knowledge are not the exclusive purview of the University. In fact, some of the PhDs in those hallowed halls are really crappy researchers. Some of the best researchers are actually the bright students.

Travel to Beaverton, Oregon. Walk in to any one of the half dozen Intel fabs and facilities there and tell the PhDs that they are not academics because they couldn't make the cut. Tell them they are not really doing useful research because they are not at a University. Nike is headquartered there, too. You can talk to the PhDs there while you are in town.

Maybe you can travel a few miles from there and find a few PhDs who develop complex modeling software used by some very exclusive industries, parties and government agencies that pay handsome sums for same and tell them they aren't academics because they couldn't make the cut.

There are lots of micro-breweries in the Pacific Northwest. After those PhDs who couldn't make the cut stop laughing they might actually take you our for a beer for having the temerity to make bold statements like that.

K? Just sayin'.

mips
June 15th, 2012, 09:38 AM
I'm certain most of you folks from outside the U.S. reading this right now are thinking "Is MisterGaribaldi out of his mind for saying going to college is a waste?" All I've got to say to you is how things are handled in your country vs. how they are here in the U.S. means you have no idea what a money-making racket it is -- for the most part -- in this country.

Recently, I was looking up costs of college education in Germany. At really nice, up-scale schools, you might have to spend something on the order of €1,000 a year. Here in the U.S., equivalent schools can cost 10 times that amount or more PER SEMESTER.


Kinda came to that conclusion from that other thread about student debt.

Keep in mind that in those places student education is 'sponsored' via taxes. It's even entirely 'free' in some countries. As per the above though I do think they offer a better product than the US though.

Having studied engineering I would not say studying in fields of engineering & science is a waste of time as the fields of application are wide and not limited at all (you can go into banking, finance etc with those degrees and they won't hesitate hiring you as they know the person is probably a analytical thinker good at problem solving)

JDShu
June 15th, 2012, 11:28 AM
You will have to trust me on this point: There are those who get PhDs who don't ever intend or want to be trapped in academia. Ever.

There is often more original and useful human knowledge to be discovered far from the artificial confines of ivy covered edifices than within them. Research and additions to the body of human knowledge are not the exclusive purview of the University. In fact, some of the PhDs in those hallowed halls are really crappy researchers. Some of the best researchers are actually the bright students.

Travel to Beaverton, Oregon. Walk in to any one of the half dozen Intel fabs and facilities there and tell the PhDs that they are not academics because they couldn't make the cut. Tell them they are not really doing useful research because they are not at a University. Nike is headquartered there, too. You can talk to the PhDs there while you are in town.

Maybe you can travel a few miles from there and find a few PhDs who develop complex modeling software used by some very exclusive industries, parties and government agencies that pay handsome sums for same and tell them they aren't academics because they couldn't make the cut.

There are lots of micro-breweries in the Pacific Northwest. After those PhDs who couldn't make the cut stop laughing they might actually take you our for a beer for having the temerity to make bold statements like that.

K? Just sayin'.

They might have wanted to go into academia before they did the PhD, but then they realized that they really hated it - and I completely understand that. The purpose of a PhD is to turn you into a knowledge worker, for better or for worse. You don't need a PhD to become a researcher in the industry, and since you know so much about people with PhDs, I'm sure you knew that too.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, I think that you are right that some people do in fact do PhDs aiming to get a government or industry research positions, so I concede that point. The greater point I was making is that the purpose of a PhD really is to train you to be a researcher, wherever you choose to do it.

KiwiNZ
June 15th, 2012, 11:34 AM
They might have wanted to go into academia before they did the PhD, but then they realized that they really hated it - and I completely understand that. The purpose of a PhD is to turn you into a knowledge worker, for better or for worse. You don't need a PhD to become a researcher in the industry, and since you know so much about people with PhDs, I'm sure you knew that too.

My oldest son is currently doing his second Doctorate, he is not going to be a knowledge worker. My youngest is studying for a PHD and does not intend to be a knowledge worker.

JDShu
June 15th, 2012, 11:38 AM
My oldest son is currently doing his second Doctorate, he is not going to be a knowledge worker. My youngest is studying for a PHD and does not intend to be a knowledge worker.

Maybe it's different in NZ. Frankly, there is no reason in the United States to do a PhD if you don't plan to do research as a career (whether industry or academic).

Paqman
June 15th, 2012, 12:10 PM
Maybe it's different in NZ. Frankly, there is no reason in the United States to do a PhD if you don't plan to do research as a career (whether industry or academic).

Surely that's going to depend on your industry? You'd hardly suggest that everybody doing a medical doctorate is going to go into research.

mips
June 15th, 2012, 12:21 PM
You'd hardly suggest that everybody doing a medical doctorate is going to go into research.

Not sure I know what you mean. Over here in the medical field the term 'doctor' does not relate to a Ph.D. it's a title bestowed on physicians as recognition or respect. Physicians here actually do a MB BCh degree. If you specialise or want to go into research you would also do M.Med, Ph.D. or M.D. So in theory you could end up being a Doctor doctor :D

KiwiNZ
June 15th, 2012, 12:30 PM
My son is a MD Bachelor of Medicine( Medical Doctor) , BSc Bachelor of Science Phsychology ,he is also doing a PHD in Psychology

drmrgd
June 15th, 2012, 12:31 PM
Surely that's going to depend on your industry? You'd hardly suggest that everybody doing a medical doctorate is going to go into research.

Well, there's a big difference between a PhD and an MD. But nevertheless, I do agree that it depends on the industry. I'm in science, and I know that if you want to head up groups in our industry or lead companies (unless you started your own that is), you'll need a PhD, and in that sense, it's more of an R&D to drive profits rather than knowledge (which I personally think is shameful). Of course, there's the academic world too, which is a completely different beast and follows JDShu's picture a lot better.

The farce with the degree (whether it be Associates, Bachelors, Masters, or Doctorate) is that it really doesn't indicate whatsoever the knowledge or intelligence of the person holding it. I work with and for plenty of PhDs, and some of them are great and very knowledgeable. Some of them hardly know what they're doing at all and fumble around. However, they are in leadership positions simply because they have that degree. Anyone can get a degree; it's just a matter of putting the time in. There's no real trick to it. Most of them lack the expertise of their technicians and underlings since they don't do science, but rather think about it and talk about it with others.

I also hate the fact that trades are so heavily downplayed these days. Trade skills are critical components of our society, and extremely valuable (they also can pay very well too). However, society says that unless you go to a university and get a degree, you've wasted your life. It's really a shame. I know a ton of people that were not book smart and hated the idea of going to classes, studying, etc., who went to college just because it was what was expected of them. Given their aptitudes, though, I really wonder how many of them would have benefited from becoming an electrician's apprentice, or gone to plumber's school. They ended up getting vague degrees and really not doing much with them after the fact.

mips
June 15th, 2012, 12:48 PM
I also hate the fact that trades are so heavily downplayed these days. Trade skills are critical components of our society, and extremely valuable (they also can pay very well too). However, society says that unless you go to a university and get a degree, you've wasted your life. It's really a shame. I know a ton of people that were not book smart and hated the idea of going to classes, studying, etc., who went to college just because it was what was expected of them. Given their aptitudes, though, I really wonder how many of them would have benefited from becoming an electrician's apprentice, or gone to plumber's school. They ended up getting vague degrees and really not doing much with them after the fact.

Very true that. My one friend became a plumber and the other a auto electrician via the trade school route. They are both successful business owners today.

Paqman
June 15th, 2012, 01:11 PM
Well, there's a big difference between a PhD and an MD.

True, medicine was probably a bad example.



I also hate the fact that trades are so heavily downplayed these days. Trade skills are critical components of our society, and extremely valuable (they also can pay very well too).

Downplayed by everyone except those folks with trades doing very nicely for themselves perhaps?

Mikeb85
June 15th, 2012, 04:06 PM
University degrees can be very useful, but it depends on the individual themselves. Fact is, education or not, if you can't produce the goods, you won't be valuable. You can get ahead with or without an education, but a degree is generally useful. It's also the only real way to get credentials in some of the more technical fields.

It all comes down to the individual - some people think a degree is a guaranteed ticket to a great job and career, which it isn't.

MisterGaribaldi
June 15th, 2012, 04:45 PM
I think there are things taught in college which are a legitimate benefit. For example, as mentioned above, the Humanities classes, history classes, World Civ, etc. But then again, in the U.S. we're so absolutely bent on destroying our K-12 system and its ability to teach anything at all, I believe our priorities are greatly misplaced.

EDIT: Sorry, I re-read this and I don't think it makes the sense I thought it would when I wrote it. It's missing something. Hmm...

Oh, right. We are teaching (and re-teaching) things in college that were never (or never adequately) taught in K-12 here in the U.S., which is inexcusable. I mean, for goodness' sake, we've got kids for anywhere between 12 - 14 years anyhow, and we can't find the time to teach them? At all? Seriously?

DZ*
June 15th, 2012, 04:55 PM
You don't need a PhD to become a researcher in the industry

But it would help tremendously if you plan to initiate scientific projects, publish papers as first or corresponding author and direct a research group.


many people do a PhD and then end up working in the industry, but that's because they either they were wrong in choosing to do a PhD or they failed to get a job in academia, since it is highly competitive.

When I graduated, my first position was in a big pharma company, where all I was doing is science, in the field I was trained in. I worked there for five years, writing papers on designing statistical methods for large data that already accumulated over 1000 cites. One of them was identified by Thomson Reuters Science Watch as one of 15 core papers in my field.

It is definitely not true that good jobs in industry or government of that type are any less competitive than the academic ones. An investigator type of position outside a university can be very attractive, if for no other reason that you don't need to write grant proposals (keeping in mind NIH budget cuts and dismal rates of approval (http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/01/nih-examines-what-drove-its-grant.html)).

jonathonblake
June 15th, 2012, 04:58 PM
Right now, it practically seems like you need an Associates' just to push a broom. It's ridiculous!

HR uses education as a checkmark for what the person "knows".
A person graduting from High School in 1960 was better equiped for most jobs, than an MA (any field) graduating in 2010. Furthermore, from the company's point of view, the 1950 high school graduate required less on-the-job training, to be more productive than the 2010 MA graduate.

This is a direct result of grade inflation --- assignments that would have rated a C- in 1960, would rate an A-, or perhaps even an A, in 2010.

This is why the broom pusher requires more eduction in 2012, and still has to have several weeks of on-the-job training, than the broom pusher in 1960. (If the intent is to have a clean floor, in a clean room, most people do not know how to sweep a floor, nor do they know how to mop a floor.)


A well rounded education introduces the student to other cultures, to History, Philosophy, Art, Music, Literature, Science and Industry.

That is the ideal. The practice is very different. Spending a week studying each volume of The Five Foot Bookshelf, will give one more breadth, and depth in those topics, than one will obtain from spending 8 years pursuing a PhD, unless the PhD is in one of those specific subjects.


But an education has a benefit that is always helpful in any situation: learning how to think rationally and solve deliberately.

If only that were true.

If you want to know something, you need to spend at least 10,000 hours actively studying that subject, and a further 5,000 hours actively practicing the subject.

jonathon

wilee-nilee
June 15th, 2012, 04:59 PM
Straight up statistics real imperial data, not personal opinions show that you will earn more money and have more opportunities with a college education period. There are variables in any statistical base, some will not succeed due to these variables.

You do have to be careful that what you choose to be your educational goals, and if applicable though; how hard you want and can work with the studies and the application to a real market scenario.

As suggested in this thread as well a college education is also designed to teach you critical thinking skills, not confirmation bias.

Think clearly, get the facts, and don't just spew out what you think is correct, but what is supported by facts.

I will say though that yes you can reach a high level of education working on your own without a academic environment, but many times and most cases I suspect, it is the paper that says you have, that is your ticket in.

jonathonblake
June 15th, 2012, 05:20 PM
Straight up statistics real imperial data, not personal opinions show that you will earn more money and have more opportunities with a college education period. There are variables in any statistical base, some will not succeed due to these variables.

Pay very close attention to the actual studies, and not what people spout. For individuals in one of half a dozen specific sub-groups, you will earn less with a college degree, than without a college degree.

Other variables usually glossed over:

Terminal degree that the institution offers;
Which agencies accredit the institution;
Where the institution is located;
Field the degree is in;




jonathon

JDShu
June 15th, 2012, 07:25 PM
But it would help tremendously if you plan to initiate scientific projects, publish papers as first or corresponding author and direct a research group.


Yes, I conceded that point earlier.



When I graduated, my first position was in a big pharma company, where all I was doing is science, in the field I was trained in. I worked there for five years, writing papers on designing statistical methods for large data that already accumulated over 1000 cites. One of them was identified by Thomson Reuters Science Watch as one of 15 core papers in my field.

It is definitely not true that good jobs in industry or government of that type are any less competitive than the academic ones. An investigator type of position outside a university can be very attractive, if for no other reason that you don't need to write grant proposals (keeping in mind NIH budget cuts and dismal rates of approval (http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/01/nih-examines-what-drove-its-grant.html)).

The thing is that bad jobs in academia (noname university in the middle of nowhere) are competitive too. I'm not saying industry positions are worse, I'm just saying that the number of academic positions are so few that the chances of getting a job is incredibly low. More importantly, the point of a PhD is to do research, regardless of setting, and too often people think that it's just some qualification similar to a Bachelor's or Masters, as opposed to a type of training to do one specific thing.

MisterGaribaldi
June 15th, 2012, 07:41 PM
From where I sit, I think far too much emphasis these days is placed on a college education, instead of (as mentioned up-thread) trade education. It's really sad and I think it potentially ruins more lives than it actually benefits.

Also, there are certain things that are just ways of propping up jobs in this country which aren't really *that* valuable, such as foreign language education. That's not to say foreign language education is worthless, period, but it's nowhere near the value that gets spent on it here.

"Well, learning Spanish would be a good thing in the U.S., no?" I can hear asked (and I have heard it asked IRL). My counter to that is one very simple question: What is the primary driver behind any utility of learning Spanish, specifically, as opposed to some other random language?

Yet neverminding what's actually behind that, having language requirements attached to a degree is only one such example. Why not teach more unbiased world history as a requirement so we know what's been going on in the world "up to the present" so it's harder for us to be taken advantage of? How about also making mandatory more studies connected to your degree? Seems like those two things would be eminently more practical than the present process.

But, of course, education in the U.S. is all about money making, both for students hoping for better jobs and/or careers, and most especially for our education system, both K-12 and College level. It's disgusting. Also, have you folks seen the prices of textbooks lately? Outrageous!

eriktheblu
June 15th, 2012, 08:02 PM
I have personally completed only about a semester of college education. My employer (military) uses more of the apprenticeship model. My job does not require a degree. While a degree would open up other positions, those positions do not interest me.


Straight up statistics real imperial data, not personal opinions show that you will earn more money and have more opportunities with a college education period. While I don't disagree with this, it does not account for the practice of inflationary education.

To analogize: We could easily say that people who exercise win more athletic medals than those that do not. If we convince more people to exercise with that result in more medals being awarded?

Formal education results in award of a diploma. It is not the only way to learn. If the education is simply to attain greater appreciation for the world around you, there are a lot of cheaper ways. Formal education beyond market demands does not make economic sense for those funding the education.

QIII
June 15th, 2012, 10:01 PM
If only that were true.

If you want to know something, you need to spend at least 10,000 hours actively studying that subject, and a further 5,000 hours actively practicing the subject.

jonathon

I think you missed the point. The commodities I spoke of were entirely divorced from any particular subject or course of study. The value of an education is more to learn how to think than what to know, particularly at the undergraduate level. In Mathematics, you may forget the particulars of a formula if you don't use it. You can recover it if you know how to think the concept through.

And I agree with some of the posts here. It seems more and more to me that US College graduates today demonstrate a level of real attainment that would barely have gotten them through High School in my day.

An A was something you had to put some elbow grease into. A C was average. Now people see it as an insult and won't stand for it.

It's not necessarily the teacher's fault. It's the parents who whine and call their legislators when Johnny and Suzie are actually asked to perform. It's the parents who don't tell Johnny and Suzie to get their lazy back sides off the couch our back home from Billy and Janie's house and do their d***ed homework.

QIII
June 15th, 2012, 10:12 PM
To analogize: We could easily say that people who exercise win more athletic medals than those that do not. If we convince more people to exercise with that result in more medals being awarded?

I think your analogy fails.

No, the number of medals awarded would not change. There would be more work associated with achieving the same level of higher performance relative to the whole in order to earn the same number of medals.

In the case of the general population, it would improve in overall athleticism or fitness.

Yours is a profession that I liken in many ways to a trade. As I said there is genius to be found there. An NCO who can barely read can often be a Commander's most valued asset. Leadership is not innate. It must be formed in a crucible from raw materials. Only a very few special people can stand the heat.

I had more NCOs than subordinate Officers that I thought were worth a crap.

ontaiwolf
June 15th, 2012, 11:08 PM
Recently, I was looking up costs of college education in Germany. At really nice, up-scale schools, you might have to spend something on the order of €1,000 a year. Here in the U.S., equivalent schools can cost 10 times that amount or more PER SEMESTER.

As Germans would say: Milchmädchenrechnung.

Yes, in some parts of Germany you have to pay "only" up to 700€ per semester, in others way less. But that's not really what you pay. We have really high taxes (up to 50% of your incoming) here in Germany and universities are paid from this taxes, so you pay for education your whole life.

ExSuSEusr
June 16th, 2012, 02:52 AM
Regarding education - a degree isn't a measure of intelligence per say; it is more of a measure of one's ability to recall memorized information and pass a test.

I don't understand why employers put so much value on a degree - sure it does say that a person is able to complete something and in the end, by attending college, a person is more likely to be introduced to more culture than not.

I know several people, whom I was in school with, that while they earned straight A's in the classroom couldn't hold a test tube straight if their lives depended on it. Moreover, they had absolutely zero creativity when it came to designing experiments to test a give hypothesis. Ask them what a thermocycler is and they go on for days regurgitating what they've read from a book - but ask them to actually perform a PCR - and they're screwed (for lack of better terms). But, that doesn't seem to matter - or at least it didn't in the eyes of the employer. Many of them equate a degree with honors with competence.

If I were a manager and I needed an IT guy. I'd more than likely hire the guy dressed in a shirt with a penguin on the front who had an addiction to gaming over the clean up recent graduate from ITT who probably has never so much as built his own system. I hope my comparison here is clear and that you get my point.

I also know a person with a teaching degree who works as a coder writing C++. In her case - she hated teaching, but while sticking with she taught herself coding and created a slew of different programs that she used to show her skill to potential employers. Of course the sad thing is - she is paid two-thirds of what the other programmers are paid - simply because their degree says "Computer Science."

I have come to find that most HR people aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. I don't mean to insult anyone here who might be in that particular field - but the way they weed through applicants is just... wow... (not a good wow either).

As for trade skills - you better believe there is a huge demand now. Welders especially. A good welder or mill right can make more than 30 dollars an hour. There is a demand because today's "kids" don't want to "work" hard. They want to go to college, graduate, get an air conditioned office job and make 400 million dollars (yes, I am exaggerating) their first year. Trade skills are looked down upon these days.

It makes me laugh at times to listen to people whine about our immigration issue and then complain because they can't find anyone to put a new roof on their house.

Anyway, I was curious to what you all thought the real value of an education is and I have read some good responses.

It seems that in this day and age - getting a piece of paper is fine as long as you are wracking up as much hands on as you can in the process.

DZ*
June 16th, 2012, 02:53 AM
The thing is that bad jobs in academia (noname university in the middle of nowhere) are competitive too. I'm not saying industry positions are worse, I'm just saying that the number of academic positions are so few that the chances of getting a job is incredibly low.

It's a complicated issue :-) There are many universities while the number of companies that can provide a comparable environment is small.

I had made a conscious decision to quit industry after working there for 5 years. My job was not in danger, but I convinced myself that it might be more difficult to find another job, if I stayed in industry for a long time.

My reasoning was that I would no longer be as attractive to universities if I stayed in industry longer, compared to someone of similar qualifications but who is moving from one academic job to another. So, my options would be limited to large companies and there are only few of them.

jfreak_
June 16th, 2012, 09:21 AM
What I don't get is that after a Master's one can get a position as a researcher in an industry, we can also get that after a Ph.D (albeit more easily) . But is it worth spending 5 years of my life doing a ph.d , when I could do research in the industry and make MUCH more money AND get more experience?
Of course if the end target is academia then the above question is moot :P .

ExSuSEusr
June 16th, 2012, 03:16 PM
What I don't get is that after a Master's one can get a position as a researcher in an industry, we can also get that after a Ph.D (albeit more easily) . But is it worth spending 5 years of my life doing a ph.d , when I could do research in the industry and make MUCH more money AND get more experience?
Of course if the end target is academia then the above question is moot :P .


I did actual molecular research as a undergrad and at the Master's level. I applied to more companies than I can remember and when it came down to it I was told time and time again that an MS in a pure science was essentially worthless for positions in pure science. You have too much education to do the bench work (they like to use BS level graduates because they can keep the pay down) and you don't have enough education to compete with the PhDs for research positions. If you're lucky you can find a position at a college and teach 101 level material.

I ended up going back for a second Master level program - an MBA and actually found more opportunity with that....

chili555
June 16th, 2012, 04:31 PM
Straight up statistics real imperial data, not personal opinions show that you will earn more money and have more opportunities with a college education period. There are variables in any statistical base, some will not succeed due to these variables.

You do have to be careful that what you choose to be your educational goals, and if applicable though; how hard you want and can work with the studies and the application to a real market scenario.

As suggested in this thread as well a college education is also designed to teach you critical thinking skills, not confirmation bias.

Think clearly, get the facts, and don't just spew out what you think is correct, but what is supported by facts.

I will say though that yes you can reach a high level of education working on your own without a academic environment, but many times and most cases I suspect, it is the paper that says you have, that is your ticket in.Exactly!

Does this mean that a high school grad can't think critically and solve problems? No. Neither does it mean that all college grads can. It simply means that the odds are strongly stacked in favor of a college grad.

I think many of you are missing an important point. Whatever the economic climate is today is not what it will be doing 5-10 years from now. It will change. It may get worse; it probably will get better. Greece will solve itself. The EU will live on or die. The US Social Security system will be fixed or abolished.

However, a degree in something useful is forever. Someday in the future, jobs will be easy to get. Do you want a broom or burger job, or do you want a white collar job?

In my 34-year career, ending in Human Resources, 80% or more of all manager and above jobs at our company were occupied by college grads. I screened them and, in some cases, promoted them.

If you expect to be working ten years and more from now in a job with management responsibilities, I recommend a degree.