Need laptop advice - Mac vs. ThinkPad

[Mikeb85]

As the thread title states, I need advice purchasing a laptop. It comes down to a ThinkPad T430 vs MacBook Pro Retina.

Normally I'd go with the ThinkPad, but since I've decided to reeducate myself (University), I can get the Macbook for $2050, which is a great price for the specs (2880x1800 screen, 256 GB SSD, Quad Core i7, 8 GB Ram, 1 GB discrete nvidia graphics, etc...). The ThinkPad is $1800 with the specs I want, but pales in comparison to the MacBook and is almost as expensive. If I decide simply based on specs and price, the MacBook is the clear winner, it's not even close.

Just curious about the intangibles though, and peoples experiences with Macs vs ThinkPads, and what you guys would do in this situation... Are Macs durable enough to get lugged around everyday, I know a few people who are on their second or third laptop under a single warranty, is this normal? Just looking for opinions...

[afixane]

As the thread title states, I need advice purchasing a laptop. It comes down to a ThinkPad T430 vs MacBook Pro Retina.

Normally I'd go with the ThinkPad, but since I've decided to reeducate myself (University), I can get the Macbook for $2050, which is a great price for the specs (2880x1800 screen, 256 GB SSD, Quad Core i7, 8 GB Ram, 1 GB discrete nvidia graphics, etc...). The ThinkPad is $1800 with the specs I want, but pales in comparison to the MacBook and is almost as expensive. If I decide simply based on specs and price, the MacBook is the clear winner, it's not even close.

Just curious about the intangibles though, and peoples experiences with Macs vs ThinkPads, and what you guys would do in this situation... Are Macs durable enough to get lugged around everyday, I know a few people who are on their second or third laptop under a single warranty, is this normal? Just looking for opinions...

But..... mac can't do right click :\

[kaldor]

But..... mac can't do right click :\

And Linux has no GUI!

Edit for on-topic:

I'd go with the MBP. The Retina display should be awesome, and like you said the price difference isn't huge. But, keep in mind that it'll be very hard (https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9228070/Retina_MacBook_Pro_least_repairable_notebook_ever_ says_iFixit) to upgrade or repair the MBP in the future.

[Bucky Ball]

But, keep in mind that it'll be very hard (https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9228070/Retina_MacBook_Pro_least_repairable_notebook_ever_ says_iFixit) to upgrade or repair the MBP in the future.

+1. Or very expensive ...

[afixane]

Umm, sorry a bit out of topic, but, why not system76?

[Mikeb85]

Umm, sorry a bit out of topic, but, why not system76?

I hadn't seen all their options until just now. Just took a look, it'll be $1700 for the options I want, plus a Windows license (which I will need - I'll run it in VM though).

[ssam]

Does it bother you that you can't replace or upgrade the storage or RAM? Also in my experience after 2 or 3 years of daily use a battery has significantly less capacity (my lenovo S12 went from ~4 hours to ~1 hour in 2.5 years, £30 got me a new 3rd party battery and its back to ~4 hours).

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/130819-analyzing-the-macbook-pro-with-retina-display

[Mikeb85]

Does it bother you that you can't replace or upgrade the storage or RAM? Also in my experience after 2 or 3 years of daily use a battery has significantly less capacity (my lenovo S12 went from ~4 hours to ~1 hour in 2.5 years, £30 got me a new 3rd party battery and its back to ~4 hours).

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/130819-analyzing-the-macbook-pro-with-retina-display

Not really worried about RAM when you can upgrade to 16 GB for 200 dollars. The non-replaceable battery is slightly worrying.

[MisterGaribaldi]

As always, you have to remember that Apple (in particular) and a few other tech companies out there do not sell "computers" so much as they sell "technology solutions", and if that were to really bother you, then obviously I would have to say "stay away from Apple", or Sony, etc.

What I sometiimes laugh at is when people complain about Apple, and why they don't do X or Y or Z. They're just not interested in doing those sorts of things, otherwise they would be doing them.

Again, as has been said on here and elsewhere approximately 1 x 10^ ∞ times, buy the tool which best serves you and matches your needs.

Vis à vis the whole battery issue, it's not that it can't be replaced, of course, although it's probably only available as an Apple "service" part and not a normal "consumable" replacement part, but then again when you buy a Mac you are in part buying it for what it is -- hopefully -- otherwise why would you buy one?

[eyeofliberty]

Apple laptops are pretty sweet, but yeah, not being able to replace anything in those new MBP is concerning. ThinkPads are infinitely upgradeable, and are great Linux laptops. I use desktop Macs all day professionally, and my ThinkPad T61 at home. I would own no other laptop, except a newer ThinkPad. :P

[azangru]

Umm, sorry a bit out of topic, but, why not system76?
I hadn't seen all their options until just now. Just took a look, it'll be $1700 for the options I want, plus a Windows license (which I will need - I'll run it in VM though).
But you will have to add the price of a Windows license to the MacBook as well :)

[codingman]

A Mac is better than a thinkpad, but not that good for the price. I say go with the mac, not the thinkpad.

[TBABill]

Not really worried about RAM when you can upgrade to 16 GB for 200 dollars. The non-replaceable battery is slightly worrying.

Not quite true on the RAM part unfortunately. Regular Macbook Pro can be upgraded from 4GB to 8GB (16GB actually, but Apple claims only 8GB). The newest with the retina display has RAM that is soldered in and cannot be upgraded as you can in the standard Macbook Pro. So, you either get the machine with the amount of RAM you will need in the future or you settle for the standard amount of RAM throughout its life.

Bonus with a Mac...look at used Mac prices. You can probably get much over half what you paid for it several years from now. Can't do that with any brand of PC I know of.

I have a regular Macbook Pro and love it. YMMV, but they really are solid machines.

[JanneM]

Isn't the Mac a glossy screen? That's a killer in my experience, especially in lecture halls and spaces like that with lots of point lights that reflect int eh screen.

I really dislike the glued-shut aspect of the Mac. I've had enough batteries, memory units and drives die on me over the years that I do want to be able to replace stuff if I need to. Also, the Thinkpad keyboards have a well-deserved reputation for being the best you can get.

In the end, I just ordered a T430, with (probably) a bit higher specs than you; 16Gb, 2Gb NVIDIA graphics, an SSD and a second internal HD (for live backups and data storage) that I can swap for a second battery when traveling. Ended up a bit beyond your budget.

I used to bring and use my laptop everywhere, and on travel especially. But lately I mostly use the laptop on a desk, and it stays in the bag during travel so extreme portability is no longer as important to me. I have my phone and budget tablet for cafe surfing and travel use after all.

The screen is 900 pixels high which is lower than I'd like. On the other hand, 1800 pixels is too much - you pay for it with lower battery life and worse graphics performance. Either is workable, but one is on the low end, the other on the high. The perfect balance for a screen with this size and distance is about 1100-1200 pixels, but nobody seems interested in making those <rant>Why does everything have to be either budget or mine-is-bigger-than-yours posturing?</rant>

(edited for clarity)

[KiwiNZ]

The Thinkpads are somewhat dated in design but they are robust and reliable. I have purchased many hundreds of these over the years and have had a very little failure rate.

[szymon_g]

I have purchased many hundreds of these over the years and have had a very little failure rate.

that's why you had to purchase hundreds of them ;)
but seriously: i'd go with apple- good design, Unix operating system- but with long battery life etc.

[KiwiNZ]

that's why you had to purchase hundreds of them ;)
but seriously: i'd go with apple- good design, Unix operating system- but with long battery life etc.

I purchased hundreds for the large Enterprise I worked for.

[MisterGaribaldi]

But you will have to add the price of a Windows license to the MacBook as well :)

To put it in the same kind of self-centered terms I often see used here and in real life... "Why would I have to do that? I don't give a crap about Windows?"



I purchased hundreds for the large Enterprise I worked for.

Wait... you worked for Jim Kirk? (Can I have your autograph?)

[KiwiNZ]

Wait... you worked for Jim Kirk? (Can I have your autograph?)

Strangely the CEO my direct report name was Jim

[TeamRocket1233c]

What's wrong with having a Linux laptop and an iMac for the desktop?

[drawkcab]

Tough to beat thinkpads in the long run. They are tough as nails, easy to work on and its not a problem to get under the hood.

On the other hand, the new apple rigs offer a lot for the price. Apple has first access to all the new technologies coming out of china.

I'm surprised you can't get a decent thinkpad for a lot cheaper though. They run decent sales on their website periodically and if you pair that with an employee purchase code (they're floating around and lenovo doesn't really bother checking) you can probably save a few hundred bucks.

Also if you call a sales rep and ask them to accelerate your order, they'll hook you up. IBM's customer service is outstanding.

[KiwiNZ]

Also if you call a sales rep and ask them to accelerate your order, they'll hook you up. IBM's customer service is outstanding.

The Thinkpads have nothing to do with IBM, they are Lenovo.

[cbennett926]

The Thinkpads have nothing to do with IBM, they are Lenovo.


FWIW, Lenovo has always manufactured their laptops (to my knowledge so please feel free to correct me, but please be nice I'm fragile :KS ) . I have a w520 and absolutely love it, it's astounding how easy it is to switch hard drives, I do it between classes, one has Ubuntu, the other Windows. I use the Windows for my English classes because sadly, I love Microsoft Offices UI. I love Lenovo's T/W series because they look so professional and are as someone said "tough as nails"! I could rant on and on about how much I love them. At the end of the day it comes down to form or function, in all honesty I don't think you could have picked two products that exemplify each.

[KiwiNZ]

FWIW, Lenovo has always manufactured their laptops (to my knowledge so please feel free to correct me, but please be nice I'm fragile :KS ) . I have a w520 and absolutely love it, it's astounding how easy it is to switch hard drives, I do it between classes, one has Ubuntu, the other Windows. I use the Windows for my English classes because sadly, I love Microsoft Offices UI. I love Lenovo's T/W series because they look so professional and are as someone said "tough as nails"! I could rant on and on about how much I love them. At the end of the day it comes down to form or function, in all honesty I don't think you could have picked two products that exemplify each.

IBM sold the Laptop and Desktop Division to Lenovo in 2005.

[Mikeb85]

Tough to beat thinkpads in the long run. They are tough as nails, easy to work on and its not a problem to get under the hood.

On the other hand, the new apple rigs offer a lot for the price. Apple has first access to all the new technologies coming out of china.

I'm surprised you can't get a decent thinkpad for a lot cheaper though. They run decent sales on their website periodically and if you pair that with an employee purchase code (they're floating around and lenovo doesn't really bother checking) you can probably save a few hundred bucks.

Also if you call a sales rep and ask them to accelerate your order, they'll hook you up. IBM's customer service is outstanding.

You can get a decent ThinkPad for cheaper, but I want an i7, at least 8 GB of RAM, the highest resolution screen possible, and an SSD... Actually I found a W530 build that has all the options I want for an even $2000, might do that. Still though, a Retina Macbook Pro, if I settle for 8GB of ram is $2050...

The ability to easily upgrade Thinkpads, swappable batteries, durability, etc..., does make it very tempting as well. Not to mention the excellent Linux compatibility (last I checked, unless things have changed, Thinkpads are certified on Red Hat Linux, SUSE, and Ubuntu). Still would like more opinions, especially from KiwiNZ (I know you've used both and you like Apple!)...

[drawkcab]

The Thinkpads have nothing to do with IBM, they are Lenovo.

IBM still provides support for Lenovo here in the states. Just called them last week.

[KiwiNZ]

IBM still provides support for Lenovo here in the states. Just called them last week.

That is a finite service as part of the sale agreement.IBM get royalty payments from each sale That is extent of the involvement .

[AllRadioisDead]

IBM still provides support for Lenovo here in the states. Just called them last week.

I had to send in my T420 a few months ago and I didn't go through IBM at all. That may have been for older models shipped before the Lenovo takeover.

[cbennett926]

IBM sold the Laptop and Desktop Division to Lenovo in 2005.


True, but didn't Lenovo, or whoever they were called at the time, still manufacture the laptops for IBM?

[era86]

If you care at all about screen quality, you will probably want the MBPR. If you care at all about typing, you will probably want the T430. You're welcome for my subjective opinion.

[azangru]

In the end, I just ordered a T430

Great! If you plan to put Ubuntu on it, please let us know how well it works.

(I've been considering a T430 too, but it isn't yet available where I live)

[KiwiNZ]

MacBook

Pros...., Solid OS, Build quality, Best touch pad on the market period, excellent battery life. Great power supply especially when traveling.No Crapware

Cons...., Restrictive OS, iTunes, App store,

Think Pad

Pros....., Build quality and robustness,

Cons, Horrible touchpad, annoying red nipple thing, Crapware, Old design, Heavy
large power brick, patchy support and supply

[Mikeb85]

MacBook

Pros...., Solid OS, Build quality, Best touch pad on the market period, excellent battery life. Great power supply especially when traveling.No Crapware

Cons...., Restrictive OS, iTunes, App store,

Think Pad

Pros....., Build quality and robustness,

Cons, Horrible touchpad, annoying red nipple thing, Crapware, Old design, Heavy
large power brick, patchy support and supply

Appreciate it. I've always kinda like the nipple pointing devices though...

[JanneM]

Great! If you plan to put Ubuntu on it, please let us know how well it works.


Of course. I may try to (re)install Windows on a VM later*, but when I get I'll clear the SSD and put Ubuntu on it.

Need to think about how to split things up; I will probably have Ubuntu and my /home on the SSD, then keep images and large data on the HD together with a daily backup of the SSD just in case. Also put /tmp in ram, and the Firefox cache in /tmp to avoid hitting the SSD too much. Tentatively I'll not have a swap partition on it; with 16Gb memory I should not need it.

My one worry is I did add an Nvidia 5400N card to it, but the latest NVIDIA driver adds support for that one and it seems Bumblebee works fairly well nowadays so it was probably worth the risk.


* I typically need windows about 2-3 times per year, so if I can't I'll just use a public computer at the lab as usual.

[prgsdw]

MacBook

Pros...., Solid OS, Build quality, Best touch pad on the market period, excellent battery life. Great power supply especially when traveling.No Crapware

Cons...., Restrictive OS, iTunes, App store,

Think Pad

Pros....., Build quality and robustness,

Cons, Horrible touchpad, annoying red nipple thing, Crapware, Old design, Heavy
large power brick, patchy support and supply

Prefer the trackpoint over the touchpad. Great power supply? It's 85 watts, at load the system draws over 100 watts slowly draining the battery. But no worry, the system will throttle the processor before long to avoid overheating. You're Mac cons list is too short as you left out the total lack of upgrade potential or any ability to fix the machine yourself should something go wrong. Not to mention no option for accidental protection for your new machine.

On the Thinkpad side, the old design is subjective (like / dislike). It works and is proven, flexible design. And I like the black design over some craptacular smooth aluminum design. The power brick is large because it is appropriate to actually power the unit with a full load of peripherals (unlike the Mac) without stealing battery power. You Thinkpad pro list is too short. You left out all of the expansion options like 3 internal drives, the ability for internal, hardware RAID on models like the W530, ultrabay, spill resistant keyboard (my boss had a 24 ounce mug of coffee dumped directly on the keyboard of his W520 when a consultant turned a monitor and hit it. We turned off the machine, took out the keyboard, etc, dried it off, turned it on and it's working fine months later. Try that with your $2500 MacBook pro retina).

In the end it's your choice. To me it's the Thinkpad all the way. BTW, posting this from my Thinkpad T420 with Intel 520 series 120gb SSD, 750gb 7200 RPM drive and 1 internal drive slot free, 16gb of RAM, etc... And I paid $805 for my T420, $80 for the 16gb of RAM, $200 for the Intel SSD, $100 for the 750gb drive... I passed on the accident protection and 5 year warranty, but they were options available on the Thinkpad, not on the Mac.