End of the line for Ubuntu in one household

[Brunellus]

Ubuntu Bug No. 1 takes down another household.

It is with no great joy that I report to the members of this Forum the beginning of the end of my family's experiment with non-Microsoft operating systems. The next computer that attaches to the family network will run Windows exclusively.

Some background is in order. I am the oldest and most technically-inclined of three sons, and thus de facto Family SysAdmin. I am, personally, committed to GNU/Linux and will continue to run it on my own computers. the other users:

THE USERS

Dad, age ~60. Unusually precocious; responsible for getting our first computer back in '87 (a PC-XT clone running MS-DOS ~3.3). While very keen, not a "technical" user, and has only ever worked with Microsoft operating systems.

Mom ~50. Utter technophobe. Uses a kitchen computer running Ubuntu Breezy (a gift from me). Firefox, Evolution (only for e-mail), Abiword.

MiddleBro, age 16. Gamer and music enthusiast (recording). Potential but zero desire to learn any technical details or indeed follow manuals.

BabyBro, age 10. Minimal computer user; gaming needs met by consoles, but occasional schoolwork.

THE REASONS

It was recently decided that the house should continue to be a Microsoft household for the following reasons:

1) INDEPENDENCE. They won't always have me around to sort out problems. "We can't call any Linux tech support, no tech support exists. The ISP doesn't support it, and nobody we know but you runs it. If it all goes wrong, at least there are two people [Dad and MidBro] who kind of know Windows."

2) FAMILIARITY. They won't consider an Apple machine, "as if something goes wrong," says Dad, "I would be using an Apple machine for the first time in my life."

3) EXTERNAL REQUIREMENTS. BabyBro's school is very big on having the children use computers. Unfortunately, the content of the instruction is actually of the "go to START>PROGRAMS>" sort--button-by-button, screen by screen handhold howtos for (naturally) Microsoft products. None of his classmates run anything but Microsoft software at home. Naturally, the school is an all-Microsoft environment. From an educational point of view, it has been decided that Microsoft will be better than any other alternatives.

4) USER-UNFRIENDLINESS. This comes largely from MiddleBro, who might be considered an "intermediate" Windows user. Documentation is either non-existent or incredibly technical--he has no patience to RTFM. He is constantly frustrated by his inability to solve problems in Ubuntu, and my corersponding speed in doing the same from the command line. "You shouldn't have to go hacking around to install a Flash player!" he protests.

COMMENTS

Of course, I'm disappointed. The clincher argument, though, was the "schoolwork" one.

It has occurred to me that there has been a qualitative change in the way that "computers" as a subject are approached in schools--a change which acts (not subtly) to increase and reinforce Microsoft's mindshare at the expense of both the flexibility of the general user population and Microsoft's competitors.

Before computers were ubiquitous, basic computer instruction, when such instruction might have been available, would have been theoretical and hypothetical in nature. That is to say, the things taught and learned were very basic in nature: What is a computer? What does it do? What is input, and how is it put into the computer? What is output, and where do you get it? What is memory? What's a disk drive? What's the difference between an Operating System and and Application?

All of those questions were covered in a very general, theoretical sense. Kids in the '80s and early '90s might not have actually had any computers at home, but they were expected to know, in general, what they did and how they worked. This, along with very basic keyboarding skills, was the bulk of my own early computer eduction.

Nowadays, however, with computers everywhere, it is no longer considered important to know what things are, or how the various parts of the computer work with respect to each other--the important skills in demand from the marketplace are the performance of very specific tasks on very specific software.

This has had the effect of making assessment very easy (a student's progress is easily measured by his facility with the software package in question). It also, in my opinion, stultifies the potential user-base. Train someone narrowly enough, and he will eventually have problems applying skills he has already acquired to situations he has not yet encountered.

Given the recent experience in this household, and my new insight into how the younger generation is being brought up (digitally speaking), the task before the Free Software community is not merely technical, but political and economic. Technically-excellent solutions will be meaningless if they cannot be adopted by very large, stodgy, pro-Establishment institutitons: big business, government, the school system.

[Lord Illidan]

I feel sorry for you. Ah well... Technophobes and Linux do not mix.

[djsroknrol]

I feel the same way you do Brunellis...Sort of in the same position as well. I don't see Ubuntu advancing for similar reasons...

Wife: understands MS enough to "Get R Done", but when I start talking *nix vs. MS, it's like I'm talking a foreign language...

Daughter: Excited about Ubuntu, but has a tendancy to "pooch" things badly from playing (don't have the time to be F/T administrator to her computer alone...:) )

Little one: stuck on games she likes...new ones would **** her off royal....

Me: I'm here to stay....:o

[fuscia]

if it's any comfort to you, i enjoyed reading your family portrait. i'm sorry for your loss.

[Biltong (Dee)]

I feel sad for you, but what a well thought out report!

[pelle.k]

I am very glad there is an OS for us power users. But I think 'hacking' should be ONE of TWO ways of doing things. To install flash, you should only have to click an installer - and be done. You should also be able to do it using the terminal if you want more control.

Currently, The windows way is almost always the GUI way. Most of the times you can't even do it 'command line' even if you would want to. This is GREAT for non-technical users. They will always exist. Everyone is an expert in some area, but have the need for a 'non-technical' but still great way of doing things.

The linux way is more about the command line. Even though GUI apps is availiable for many appz, the command line gives you exactly what you want. However, if there was a killer interface and 'non-techie' mode for ALL these appz, it would be the ultimate solution.

I really, really, hope this will happen in a few years, because there IS a way of providing non-techie user with a decent way of doing things, while having a more advanced interface to an application underneath.

Unfortunately, microsoft have the bleesing of paid developers, and coordination within their projects.
Linux is a bit scattered. This may be why bits and pieces of what we call distros don't always work that well together.

[prizrak]

Brunellus,
Yes education system is the biggest issue out there. Many organizations would love nothing more than to be able to run Linux desktops, as most of them already run Linux servers anyway so they have the staff needed to support them. However the users would have to be retrained.

pelle.k
There are quite a few GUI ways in Linux, the Flash example is easily taken care of with Automatix. SuSE and Linspire are GUI driven to the same degree as MS, Ubuntu can be used w/o ever touching a CLI if your hardware is fully supported but sometimes it will need to be bent into submission. Personally the only thing I need the CLI for in Dapper was commenting out my network interfaces for Network Manager.

Unfortunately, microsoft have the bleesing of paid developers, and coordination within their projects.
This is kinda funny to hear after reading MS developer blogs complaining about crappy leadership and lack of good management.
Ubuntu, SuSE, RedHat, Mandriva, Linspire, etc... all have paid developers and project managers and insentives and everything else that is normally used by corporations. Linux development is very commercial in this day and age. MS's only benefit is an already enourmous user base.

[pelle.k]

I'm not saying there IS better coordination within a company, but it is certainly well suited for it.
If a company have a good infrastructure, synchronicity is in favour for development many apps that should work well together.

Wouldn't it be cool if the xorg team could time their releases (and the functions needed) with most DE teams like kde/gnome/xfce, and in turn they would do the same to important side projects like CUPS.

Remeber the time Kubuntu added kde with bindings to a CUPS release with experimental code in it, which resulted in broken printing all the way to dapper RC.
Some days it feels just like everyone is pulling in a diffrent direction. Even though they're not... :)

[nalmeth]

That is sad...

What kind of educational stuff does the little bro use? Are they really throwing out ubuntu because the directions are START -> PROGRAMS -> Internet Explorer?

Also, we all provide free tech support here, as you well know :), are your folks really against posting some questions here? The ubuntuforums firefox extension makes that easy. How often do things go wrong anyway?

Anyway, if it's a lost cause, sad to hear about that, hopefully you don't give up.

Will your mom still be using breezy in the kitchen?

[aysiu]

Well, I hope that--since one of the reasons the Ubuntu experiment failed was your needing to support them--they won't be calling on you for Windows support.

[renis]

tell your brother to put down the music and try to learn, he will be happier with himself and it is fun

[nalmeth]

tell your brother to put down the music and try to learn, he will be happier with himself and it is fun
Totally disagree. If you're not going to give up on him, go with Ubuntu-Studio. Though I imagine you tried, because you mentioned he's not interested in learning new stuff.

In my books, putting down the music is simply not an option.

Well, don't totally disagree, because it is fun!

[prizrak]

I'm not saying there IS better coordination within a company, but it is certainly well suited for it.
If a company have a good infrastructure, synchronicity is in favour for development many apps that should work well together.

Wouldn't it be cool if the xorg team could time their releases (and the functions needed) with most DE teams like kde/gnome/xfce, and in turn they would do the same to important side projects like CUPS.

Remeber the time Kubuntu added kde with bindings to a CUPS release with experimental code in it, which resulted in broken printing all the way to dapper RC.
Some days it feels just like everyone is pulling in a diffrent direction. Even though they're not... :)
I know what you mean, it would be really nice if there was a bit more coordination between different projects. I suppose this way is still working somehow, since Ubuntu is an excellent OS. Things could always be better of course. Maybe LSB will help with integration. :)

[Iandefor]

What you said about education and computers is absolutely true. The schools don't even try to teach general principles, just steps.

[Brunellus]

Well, I hope that--since one of the reasons the Ubuntu experiment failed was your needing to support them--they won't be calling on you for Windows support.
Unfortunately, they probably will. The funny thing is that I was last "current" on Windows as of maybe 2003. I actually have *less* of a clue about mucking about Windows than I do in Linux, at this point.

In truth, they're unlikely to require a great deal of support, provided we can keep things mostly clean.

[Shay Stephens]

Well, I hope that--since one of the reasons the Ubuntu experiment failed was your needing to support them--they won't be calling on you for Windows support.

That's what I was going say. They say no to Linux, they also pay for that with no Windows support from you. In time they may come around ;)

[steveneddy]

OK, dude, why don't you make the users on the machine unable to install or alter the programs, set them up nicely and show them the path.

Install Automatix for all of the codecs you are missing? It worked for me when I was just getting started w/ Ubuntu.

Install VMware and use it to install Windows for your family. <b>IF</b> they need to use windows, start up the VMware and turn the machine on.

Some screenshots of VMware on my machine here (http://steveneddy.blogspot.com).

Be patient. My daughter, who is 20 yrs old and had <b>only</b> operated windows her whole life, <b>HATED</b> linux when she moved back in. No windows in the house. She finally learned and she started telling that the machine didn't crash anymore, she started liking it more. Now we biult her machine with Ubuntu installed (her choice).

It is possible to have a family run Linux without your constant SysAdmin skills all the time. How? Make them a user and son't give them Root user passwords or permissions. Install as much as you can the first day then let them go. Show them the menus and how they are layed out. I'll bet that if they aren't installing stuff and self SysAdmin-ing, the <b>user</b> experience will be much better.

Hope the ramble wasn't too long. Enjoy your Linux.

-SE

[GuitarHero]

I would love to see Ubuntu overtake windows(right now that thought is absurd). Apple has a better chance than linux does right now because it is even simpler than windows(or at least easier to use id say) and looks awesome. Apple's pitfalls are the high price of their desktops and the difficulty of switching businesses and education systems to macs. Linux cant succeed as is. People do not want to have to search forever to find the right distro for them. If someone reccomends them "linux" they want to be able to search google for "linux" and download it, not be presented with hundreds of distros. Ubuntu needs to present itself as ubuntu first, and then linux, so people can reccomend and talk about Ubuntu, which to the everyday person comes across as an OS of its own. Also installation needs to be easier. I am a highly technical person, but coming from windows for years the terminal intimidated me. Sure sudo apt-get is easy enough and the package manager is even easier. But getting the right repositories and compiling is confusing, more so than it needs to be. I am currently running a little project for my self. This computer is running windows(i like my games), i just got a free powermac my school was throwing out, and Im installing ubuntu on my old previously windows'd computer. I have one more year of high school before college and Im going to get a laptop when I go, so Im trying to figure out if i wanna go Windows/Linux, Mac, or Linux. Alll three have pros and cons. Sorry to rant.

[Brunellus]

OK, dude, why don't you make the users on the machine unable to install or alter the programs, set them up nicely and show them the path.

Install Automatix for all of the codecs you are missing? It worked for me when I was just getting started w/ Ubuntu.

Install VMware and use it to install Windows for your family. <b>IF</b> they need to use windows, start up the VMware and turn the machine on.

Some screenshots of VMware on my machine here (http://steveneddy.blogspot.com).

Be patient. My daughter, who is 20 yrs old and had <b>only</b> operated windows her whole life, <b>HATED</b> linux when she moved back in. No windows in the house. She finally learned and she started telling that the machine didn't crash anymore, she started liking it more. Now we biult her machine with Ubuntu installed (her choice).

It is possible to have a family run Linux without your constant SysAdmin skills all the time. How? Make them a user and son't give them Root user passwords or permissions. Install as much as you can the first day then let them go. Show them the menus and how they are layed out. I'll bet that if they aren't installing stuff and self SysAdmin-ing, the <b>user</b> experience will be much better.

Hope the ramble wasn't too long. Enjoy your Linux.

-SE
They have been running as regular users forever. There is really nothing that would require giving any of them root access. Just so you know (and as you might gather from the post count), this household has actually been running desktop Linux in some form or another since 2004--initially as a stop-gap "recovery" solution to a broken WinME box, and latterly as a primary OS. All "initial setup"--installation, codecs, flashplayer, etc--was done by me.

The "kitchen computer"--the family's real point of reference as far as desktop Linux is concerned--has been remarkably reliable. Extremely long uptimes (weeks at a time (!)), nothing breaking, everything in order. The main problem is that it's slow, but that's a hardware issue more than anything else--there's really only so much you can do with a VIA C3 processor.

If having a computer was a matter of "set it and forget it," then there would have been no fundamental issue. The problem comes from my middle brother, who installs a lot of software and hardware (again, commercial games and audio recording software & hardware). *Changing* a running Linux system is non-trivial. And while those of us who run Linux on a daily basis prefer it that way, Windows users do not, by and large.

The other problem lies with the school. The homework is Microsoft-only, and extremely prescriptive. I am not around most of the time to help with homework/teach workarounds/other ways of doing things. So BabyBro's work suffers. The people who *are* around when he does his homework are either technophobic (Mom, who uses Ubuntu) or Windows-only (the rest of the house).

Again, the problem is not essentially a technical one (although various technical problems may contribute to it), but rather a *human* problem: Ubuntu Bug #1. I could set up a system that is technically much more excellent than Windows, but the only user who would benefit from such a system would be Mom, since she has no OS preferences or training. The other users would actually suffer, because their training has been (or is currently) extremely prescriptive and OS-exclusive and/or they have no willingness to attempt something new.

[aysiu]

GuitarHero, nothing in life is truly free.

You either pay money or you pay time and energy... or a little of both.

The stuff you're talking about has already been "solved" by Linspire, but people don't like to think of Linspire as being Linux (even though it uses the Linux kernel and is Debian-based, just as Ubuntu is) because they don't want to have to pay money for Linux.

But you pay money for Windows, and you pay money for Mac OS X. If you want things to be easy, you pay for it. CNR makes installation of applications (including commercial applications) easy for everyone. No enabling of extra repositories, no confusion about what's a terminal application or a GUI application.

For the people you're talking about, maybe the $20/year for CNR would be worth it, as opposed to the anti-virus subscription they're paying for in Windows.

But for most of us here, it really isn't that much work to copy and paste (yes, you don't have to memorize them or even type them) a few commands to get the right repositories and a wealth of software for free.

And I hope to God no idiot would just recommend "Linux" in the abstract to a friend or relative. First of all, people generally have a main distro. If you have a main distro, recommend the distro you use, since you can provide support for that. Secondly, who's installing Linux for this person?

If the person's tech-savvy, point her to this quiz, so she can find what distro's right for her (or at least a good first one to try): http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/

If the person's not tech-savvy, she has no business installing an operating system herself; just install it for her and configure it for her--just as you would for Windows.

[trash]

Why are you making evryone in your house choose one over the other? My mom has been dual booting for two years, she like windows for some tasks and ubuntu for others, she's 65 and not very tech savy but i can talk her though problems via yahoo.
Last week bro just asked me to take windows off his dual boot machine and now is very happy running Dapper even though he is not so tech savy either... nor am I really but I can cope:P.

[Brunellus]

Why are you making evryone in your house choose one over the other? My mom has been dual booting for two years, she like windows for some tasks and ubuntu for others, she's 65 and not very tech savy but i can talk her though problems via yahoo.
Last week bro just asked me to take windows off his dual boot machine and now is very happy running Dapper even though he is not so tech savy either... nor am I really but I can cope:P.
Simple. I don't want to be bothered with supporting both operating systems. I can't afford a proper Windows license (the kitchen computer is a homebuild).

[nalmeth]

Brunellus, did you happen to try Ubuntu-Studio for your middle-bro?

Just curious as to what another music guy things of it.

[Brunellus]

Brunellus, did you happen to try Ubuntu-Studio for your middle-bro?

Just curious as to what another music guy things of it.
Ubuntu-studio isn't even an option. His USB preamp is windows-only. Getting it up and running in Ubuntu requires a bit of jiggery-pokery with the windows driver to get the firmware loaded in the device every time it's plugged-in. There are also ALSA issues I haven't bothered to figure out (like why the levels seem so damn low in Linux versus Windows).

I should hasten to note that we're using a lot of Free Software in the house. My brother's recording with Audacity...but on Windows. He also uses OpenOffice...yup, on Windows. He prefers Opera to FireFox (as did I for ages...FFX 1.5 changes that). It's just that he's not willing to make the jump to the totally free OS.

[nalmeth]

Ok, fair enough.

You hint that there is a solution to his USB device, but it sounds long-winded. Perhaps in time there will be a fix in the kernel, or wherever the issue resides.

If he ever gets a new device, make him make sure it's friendly to free software.

If in the future he wants to try free software for his recording, nalmeth will personally lend a hand where he can.

Yeah, I know, alsa can be a noodle-scratcher sometimes.

[Brunellus]

Ok, fair enough.

You hint that there is a solution to his USB device, but it sounds long-winded. Perhaps in time there will be a fix in the kernel, or wherever the issue resides.

If he ever gets a new device, make him make sure it's friendly to free software.

If in the future he wants to try free software for his recording, nalmeth will personally lend a hand where he can.

Yeah, I know, alsa can be a noodle-scratcher sometimes.
you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The main problem is not necessarily that solutions are *not available*--it's that they are *not Windows,* and therefore *not palatable*. I have written him off.

[nanotube]

..., provided we can keep things mostly clean.
and there's the rub :)

[nalmeth]

you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The main problem is not necessarily that solutions are *not available*--it's that they are *not Windows,* and therefore *not palatable*. I have written him off. ](*,)](*,)](*,)

Yeah, it sucks. You try to help out the people you care about, and they resist, not knowing your true intentions, failing to believe in the 'pot of gold'.

It's sad to say, no matter how user-friendly, succesful, and amazing it will ever get, even in the further future, linux just isn't for everyone.

Oh well, other people are interested and do want to try something new and exiting. Our efforts are best reserved for them.

No sense in pounding our skulls on bricks that won't budge.

[Brunellus]

failing to believe in the 'pot of gold'

The prize is only as we see it, and I'm reasonable enough to see that the prize isn't worth the effort for many users.

Linux works for me because I can make it work; but then, I'm more patient and more tight-fisted than most of my friends. Things have been getting better over the years--light years better than the first time I used Linux on the desktop (borrowing a friend's machine running an early RedHat at college)--but there's still plenty of work to do on the technical level.

I do believe, though, that desktop Linux is already there (or much, MUCH closer) for business users, especially a large organization which has to maintain a IT support staff. It might become much much cheaper for such firms to simply contract out all their IT needs to someone who can provide cheap commodity hardware, software (at a good price), and full support. That's the marketplace that RedHat, Novell (and to a much MUCH lesser extent, Canonical) are aiming for, and I think they have the right idea.

[reesclissold]

Ah well, Linux isn't right for everyone. I do agree with your thoughts on computing in schools though, "Word Processing" means "Microsoft Word", and so on. No wonder so many people are stuck in a rut with the same old Windows routines they've always used.

[bruce89]

Well MS are in schools so they can get young people using their software, which means they will need it at home as well, and they will buy it later in life as they are used to it.

[H.E. Pennypacker]

There are quite a few GUI ways in Linux, the Flash example is easily taken care of with Automatix.

Why should a newbie have to install one thing so that he/she can install another? If someone is interested in installing Flash, the newbie shouldn't be required to learn about Automatix. Besides, Ubuntu doesn't provide an introduction to Automatix after an installation of Ubuntu. That means you have to scour the forums and learn about Automatix.

That is a real pain for most people: they are not necessarily interested in Automatix.

But let's see..you say they could install Automatix...why complicate the matter? It's not as if installing Automatix is a breeze itself. Yes, if you understand the terminal, it is a breeze, but then you'd have to learn the terminal. You could say "Just install ----- via Synaptic." Well, that, again, requires you to first know what Synaptic is! So, if you want to watch a 30 second flash movie, you'd have to learn about the terminal, Automatix, and/or Synaptic.

That's the problem with Linux: there's this requirement of learning one thing before you can move to another. This is extremely frustrating for most people.

How about this...download a executable from Macromedia Flash's website, and double click on it. The rest is taken care of by the installer. The only thing you have to know is where you downloaded the file to (desktop to make things easy), and how to use your mouse (for double-clicking).

This is as fundamental as it gets, and I have now idea why, in 2006, Linux still does not provide executables/installers you'll find in Windows. My mother doesn't even know how to install Microsoft Office (or RealPlayer, or anything else) on the family Windows computer, how can you expect her to mess around with Automatix, the terminal Synaptic, etc.?

[GuitarHero]

All programs should be available in debs i can double click and install. The problem is non debian based distros dont use it. I wish there was a unified linux installer. Debs that work for all distros. Maybe more companies would put out linux versions if it was simpler.

[aysiu]

That's the problem with Linux: there's this requirement of learning one thing before you can move to another. This is extremely frustrating for most people. No, that's the problem with Ubuntu--it doesn't include proprietary codecs.

In PCLinuxOS and Mepis and Linspire, you don't have to install Flash. It's just there.

If you think those people are frustrated, try having them install Windows without a restore CD (yes, an actual legitimate copy of Windows).

[H.E. Pennypacker]

All programs should be available in debs i can double click and install. The problem is non debian based distros dont use it. I wish there was a unified linux installer. Debs that work for all distros. Maybe more companies would put out linux versions if it was simpler.

I know what you're talking about, eventhough even that could be simplified. What I mean by that is that less technical language is used after double-clicking on a .deb file. For example, don't bother a newbie with telling him/her you're checking for dependencies. Most people don't even know what a dependency check is.

You're right: Linux distros should work together for the greater good. What if all people worked on something like Deb files? It would be even more simple to use. Now, you have to have a website like download.com for almost every distro, because each guy is doing something else.


No, that's the problem with Ubuntu--it doesn't include proprietary codecs.

You're thinking is going in the wrong direction. My post wasn't strictly about codecs. It was more about the installation process, and how Linux requires learning one thing before another.

But on the same topic, I actually don't see it as a problem. So what Ubuntu doesn't install the codecs? Just make the installation process simple, and people would be able to install codecs on their own, easily.



If you think those people are frustrated, try having them install Windows without a restore CD (yes, an actual legitimate copy of Windows).

Oh, I know. Installing Windows is a nightmare. It took me over 2 hours, and it failed somewhere. Ubuntu, by anyone's standards, is FAR easier to install, and takes less time (its not even comparable to Windows). You're right about that, and people will always fail somewhere, but let's not look up to Windows. Let's actually try to beat it, and make things even easier to use, as is now done with the Ubuntu installation process (the installation of operating system).

By the way, this is relevant: why not make installing applications in Ubuntu as easy as installing Ubuntu (from a Live CD)? It's a brilliant question, because Ubuntu's installation is very easy.

[ledonnell]

I guess I was a little bit luckier.
My son ten would rather play frozen bubble than snood.
My wife loathes windows since a virus nearly destroyed some legal work she was doing and a Mepis disk I had lying around saved her.
The only reason we had a windows machine in the house at all was a brother printer that was very stubborn. I am happy to say it conceded defeat two days ago.
I am sorry for your loss in your home.

[tsb]

No, that's the problem with Ubuntu--it doesn't include proprietary codecs.

In PCLinuxOS and Mepis and Linspire, you don't have to install Flash. It's just there.

If you think those people are frustrated, try having them install Windows without a restore CD (yes, an actual legitimate copy of Windows).

Flash is a poor example because in both Linux and Windows with most browsers you get a nice easy pop-up to display what you need easily. The difference is that with Wondows this is generally the situation, but with Linux it is the exception.

[Raavea]

Ahh, I understand completely. I'm pretty lucky in that geek seems to run in the genes of my family. My mother taught herself assembly from books before there was ever any likelihood of her getting near a computer. :lol:
I was using computers from 2 onwards, according to my parents - I love them. And to be honest, the way 'ICT' is taught now is one of the major factors in my hatred of MS-Windows. Let me extrapolate:
Primary School: The computer room was not finished by the time I left the school, all my previous computer experience came from mucking about on my home PC. Running W-3.1 and before that, something green, with bright green letters, upon which I think I used to play something like Rogue.
Secondary School: I chose 'ICT' as a GCSE, because I like computers, and I wished to learn more about them. Our lessons were on these subjects - majorly, MS-Office Packages such as Access, Excel, Word, Presentation, minorly, on where a mouse/keyboard/monitor plugs in. Being as I'd already been using these packages for years, I was notably angry.
College: I chose to do 'ICT' intensively, with Film intensively. (Intensively means two years of study in one year.) GUESS what 'ICT' lessons were all about? Access. We were supposed to make an access database, fully functioning, with forms and the like, by the end of the year. Naturally, I had two to finish in one year, as I was doing it intensively. Luckily for me, I had to move to a different country, so I didn't have to get angry over that.

In film they used Macs, and they were quite pretty, though I didn't like the compact keyboards the college chose. I never got to use the things, but they did look shmexy...



But on the same topic, I actually don't see it as a problem. So what Ubuntu doesn't install the codecs? Just make the installation process simple, and people would be able to install codecs on their own, easily.I have an idea: Why not include a step in the installer that will ask if they wanna install something like easy ubuntu, and then places an icon in the middle of the desktop. README: Explaining how to do all the most commonly wanted installations, both the long way, and the short, easy ubuntu way.

[tsb]

Ahh, I understand completely. I'm pretty lucky in that geek seems to run in the genes of my family. My mother taught herself assembly from books before there was ever any likelihood of her getting near a computer. :lol:
I was using computers from 2 onwards, according to my parents - I love them. And to be honest, the way 'ICT' is taught now is one of the major factors in my hatred of MS-Windows. Let me extrapolate:
Primary School: The computer room was not finished by the time I left the school, all my previous computer experience came from mucking about on my home PC. Running W-3.1 and before that, something green, with bright green letters, upon which I think I used to play something like Rogue.
Secondary School: I chose 'ICT' as a GCSE, because I like computers, and I wished to learn more about them. Our lessons were on these subjects - majorly, MS-Office Packages such as Access, Excel, Word, Presentation, minorly, on where a mouse/keyboard/monitor plugs in. Being as I'd already been using these packages for years, I was notably angry.
College: I chose to do 'ICT' intensively, with Film intensively. (Intensively means two years of study in one year.) GUESS what 'ICT' lessons were all about? Access. We were supposed to make an access database, fully functioning, with forms and the like, by the end of the year. Naturally, I had two to finish in one year, as I was doing it intensively. Luckily for me, I had to move to a different country, so I didn't have to get angry over that.

In film they used Macs, and they were quite pretty, though I didn't like the compact keyboards the college chose. I never got to use the things, but they did look shmexy...


I have an idea: Why not include a step in the installer that will ask if they wanna install something like easy ubuntu, and then places an icon in the middle of the desktop. README: Explaining how to do all the most commonly wanted installations, both the long way, and the short, easy ubuntu way.


cool mom award 2006 is a lock. :smile:

[mips]

...My mother taught herself assembly from books before there was ever any likelihood of her getting near a computer....

I'm bowing down right now ;)

[argie]

Just because I can't see it mentioned here, I'd like to remind you of auto-package which works pretty fine for me.

[egon spengler]

My post wasn't strictly about codecs. It was more about the installation process, and how Linux requires learning one thing before another.

Really that's a life thing, not a Linux thing. We're not born with all knowledge and so at some point you will have to learn how to do something in order to complete a larger task. The first time I went to a recordig studio I had to learn how to use (some of) the desk before I could add reverb (I also had to learn how to use the fx unit), that's life for you my friend

I guarantee that if you took someone that had never used a computer and ask them to install, say, foobar they would have no clue as to how to do so. Browser -> search engine -> download -> double click - > accept terms -> next, next, next is something that people dont instinctively know. Believe it or not i have had people ask me to come round and install programs for them on XP.

[newbie2]

http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2006/07/goodbye_dapper_1.html
[-(

[peter b]

just a personal opinion re the subject matter which, as I could see, boils down to nothig more and nothing less than personal choices of win or linux.

there is no doubt based on the trends and tendencies of the past 2 decades that the users at large in great numbers prefer for their own reasons an easy visual/graphic man-machine-application interface. this was the very key that made Microsoft what it is today, the company with $+50 billion in the bank and mr.Gates the richest man in the world. this IS A FACT not rocket science to understand. or, put in simpler terms, people will pay whatever the market price is to achieve results FAST WITH VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE re what goes on behind the scenes. people DO NOT WANT to type commands and study hefty manuals re OS or applications; they want results FAST from a machine-os-app system OFF THE BOX. it is unfortunate that today there is only ONE company (and it knows it) that offers such a working product that is named windows.

I know from my own live experience, be it at home or work, how the things worked and developed for the past 20+ years, from the days of DOS to win 1,2,3,95 until today. i also know and experienced live with unix and its incarnations as nos in Banyan and entire linux Libra distro until its demise.

for the past month I actively evaluated the latest linux distros given Libra's disappearance. I looked at ubuntu, kubuntu, knoppix and linspire/freespire all with live installation CD's. Without a doubt big strides were made by all in the quest of producing a linux distro that matches the existing winxp functionality and become a bona fide competitor but... no cigar yet, at least the way I see it. the closest that came to win was kubuntu and knoppix. ubuntu and linspire could not even autodetect the router let alone connection to internet and lan!. it still beats me why midnight commander, an easy graphical file mgr-editor is not included as default in ubuntu and kubuntu; it is there for the asking but an user MUST go through an entire procedure and not an easy one to compile the source and install it. same with wine. samba was installed by default by kubuntu and knoppix only. probably knoppix has the most elegant implementation of mc -it is part of nano editor.

now, after all the above I can say that the day of mr Shuttleworth's dream to give humanity a WORKABLE OFF THE BOX EASY TO DEPLOY AND MAINTAIN os-app based on free open sources is very close; in my opinion, firstly, if the user problems shown in the requests for support in launchpad is taken into account in the upcoming edgy distro and, secondly, the user/administrator is freed as much as possible of using commands for the day to day tasks, win will have to face a pretty good competition.

I think that the market is more than ready to accept and absorb a good linux alternative to the aloof win.
peter b

[Brunellus]

I'm going to bump and update this thread, since discussions of the new computer have been ongoing.

My mother is inclined to buy the cheapest laptop she can get. My father is disinclined to have anything but windows run on it, as my youngest brother's school instructions continue to be windows only. My request for a specific list and/or explanation is simply stonewalled--THEY'RE ALL WINDOWS, OK!?--and so I have no constructive way of solving the problem. Alternatives are out of the question because schoolwork is click-by-click prescriptive. Again, not ideal from a teaching standpoint, but I don't make the curriculum, nor do I fund it.

One salutory consequence of my father's recent laptop meltdown--a one-click spyware pwnshop episode--is that everybody is now much more sensitive to computer security. Users are now willing to consider a dual-boot, rather than simply refusing any further OS options out of hand.

There is one further objection--"why isn't your middle brotehr's computer constantly dying of spyware? IT runs windows!" My response: 1) He knows a thing or two about the internet, and is generally less likely to knowingly hose his install the same way dad did; and 2) even if he did, he still has an Ubuntu partition which he uses periodically, and will *always* be available in case of a major failure elsewhere on the computer.

My recommendation would be simply to run Linux as often as possible, booting only into windows whenever necessary. In practice, this breaks down; absent a major crisis, my family has always preferred Windows. Linux has been the OS of last resort around here, brought in when Windows has failed. None of those 'emergency' deployments fixed the Bug #1 issue in this house.

[Dinerty]

There is one way to sort out this family confusion .... refuse to help them with anything Windows related :D.

Get the whole family running doom 3 on ubuntu !

[peter b]

it is NOT my intention to stick my nose into your household affairs re win vs linux, far from me, but there is in this world a beautiful way of gaining others confidence and respect that is called gentle suation.

I bet my last dollar that anybody will accept alternatives to what they are used to PROVIDED that the alternative DOES AT LEAST THE SAME THING as the original; if the alternative musters more, it's easier to use and it's cheaper, the name/brand won't even came up, the success of replacing the original is assured.

as far as the pressures from outside the household re teaching exclusively in win environment, for the time being, or at least until the alternative proves itself on the market and achieves the so called critical mass, there isn't much that can be done, it must exist side by side with the alternative.

as far as the whole debate is concerned -too bad that it filtered even inside households- I'm personally more than ready to accept the alternative today if it 'vaults' over the win bar or at least it is at the same level. why was win allowed to set the bar without any challenge? and for so long? the Debian has tremendous depth and potential; these attributes can coalesce into a distro that can compete with win anytime hands down.

peter b

[ekuliak]

Times certainly have changed.

I remember when I was in public school all the schools I went to all used Macs. It wasn't until my Senior year in high school when they replaced an entire computer lab of Macs to Dells. The plan was to have a course at the school that taught about computer hardware and networking (the aging iMacs were, well, aging). I was signed up for the class, but apparently things fell through and the school cancelled the class. The computers are still used for teaching incoming Freshman how to use computers.

I graduated high school in 2005. So even before they replaced a bunch of aging macs to dells, most people were familiar with Windows XP (and most are probably only familiar with Windows XP) and likely had a computer with it at home (I know by that time we had two).

The whole need-xp-for-school thing didn't even really hit me until College when I started learning C++; We were taught on Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0 and had to turn in programs with a program that ran on, you guess it, Windows.

It was fine for me at the time because I hadn't started using Linux yet. By the second programming course, I had started using Linux (Mandriva at the time) two days before the class started. I still dual booted frequently with Windows XP (mostly for programming homework).

My current programming teacher doesn't care what compiler we use, which I like 8-)

So now I mostly just use Windows at school (That's all they have). But Windows isn't so bad for occasional at school use (if you change the GUI to classic view, that is :wink: )

I don't use my Windows partition on my computer very often these days.

[3rdalbum]

Somebody said earlier that "people don't want to type commands into a terminal" and implied that, given the choice between an operating system which uses a terminal and one which does, the user will always choose one which doesn't.

However, more people used Windows 3.1... heck, more people used DOS than used Mac OS.

[Carrots171]

WORKABLE OFF THE BOX EASY TO DEPLOY AND MAINTAIN

In many cases, Windows doesn't work perfectly out of the box if you're doing a fresh install. Windows is simply ALREADY INSTALLED on the vast majority of computers so people don't have to do the work installing an OS - the only thing they have to do is buy the computer. If you buy a computer with Linux pre-installed (http://www.system76.com/), it is "workable off the box". And what do you mean by easy to "deploy"? Linux is easier to deploy in some cases because of it's open-source nature, among other things. And in some cases it can be easier to maintain, too. You don't have to defragment the hard drive. You don't have to run virus and spyware scanners. And if you don't want to use the terminal to configure anything, try SuSE. It has a graphical configuration tool for almost everything - I find that setting up an ADSL connection, for example, is easier in SuSE than in Ubuntu because there's a very good graphical internet configuration tool included with SuSE. Ubuntu is a distro where you have to use the command line a little more. I don't mind changing the screen resolution or installing nvidia drivers with apt-get using the command line (which I actually find easier than downloading a driver from the Nvidia website and going through a wizard to install it); but you may. If you do, try MEPIS or SUSE or some other distro which is more point-and click.

Windows can work better and be easier to deploy and maintain for some people, and Linux can do those things better for other people. So can Mac. It all depends on what your needs are. However, I'd say that Windows clearly has a big advantage right now in one area: there are more drivers avaialable for it and there's more software that runs on it because it's more popular. Which brings us back to Bug #1 and the original post.

[Brunellus]

it is NOT my intention to stick my nose into your household affairs re win vs linux, far from me, but there is in this world a beautiful way of gaining others confidence and respect that is called gentle suation.

I bet my last dollar that anybody will accept alternatives to what they are used to PROVIDED that the alternative DOES AT LEAST THE SAME THING as the original; if the alternative musters more, it's easier to use and it's cheaper, the name/brand won't even came up, the success of replacing the original is assured.

as far as the pressures from outside the household re teaching exclusively in win environment, for the time being, or at least until the alternative proves itself on the market and achieves the so called critical mass, there isn't much that can be done, it must exist side by side with the alternative.

as far as the whole debate is concerned -too bad that it filtered even inside households- I'm personally more than ready to accept the alternative today if it 'vaults' over the win bar or at least it is at the same level. why was win allowed to set the bar without any challenge? and for so long? the Debian has tremendous depth and potential; these attributes can coalesce into a distro that can compete with win anytime hands down.

peter b
gentle suasion is what we have attempted. Gentle suasion has failed. The primary objection remains the fact that a non-Windows computer compromises my brother's ability to do his homework, the directions for which are specific to operating system, program, and so forth, down to the last point and click.

No alternative will do when the prescription excludes the possibility of alternatives. And because "homework compatibility" has been made a necessary condition of the adoption of any further software, there's really no way other than Microsoft for these users.

WE know better, of course, but they're the users.

[peter b]

I agree totally with you Brunellus; it is my opinion also; nice of you to cite, among other, para 3 of my last post.

what follows is a small note re taking out of context some of the words from one of my posts. the thread, even in its title, refers to software (os in this case) and software choices -Ubuntu IS software-. what does os pre-installation on hardware have to do with the thread?. personally, I don't think that it is nice to pick and choose certain words from a sentence (this kind of action is called taking out of context, out of the main thread of thought) to start developing other subjects of discussion like 'installation' 'pre-installation' and so on. and one more thing, the software DOES COME IN BOXES too.

peter b

[Carrots171]

I bet my last dollar that anybody will accept alternatives to what they are used to PROVIDED that the alternative DOES AT LEAST THE SAME THING as the original; if the alternative musters more, it's easier to use and it's cheaper, the name/brand won't even came up, the success of replacing the original is assured.

as far as the pressures from outside the household re teaching exclusively in win environment, for the time being, or at least until the alternative proves itself on the market and achieves the so called critical mass, there isn't much that can be done, it must exist side by side with the alternative.

as far as the whole debate is concerned -too bad that it filtered even inside households- I'm personally more than ready to accept the alternative today if it 'vaults' over the win bar or at least it is at the same level. why was win allowed to set the bar without any challenge? and for so long? the Debian has tremendous depth and potential; these attributes can coalesce into a distro that can compete with win anytime hands down.

peter b

I think that one of the reasons why people choose Windows over alternatives like Linux/Mac and why it's the "End of the line for Ubuntu" in the original poster's household has more to do with Microsoft's majority market share than the quality/features of the software itself. For example, the original poster's brother can't do some of his homework on Linux because he was instructed to use Windows to do it, not because Linux isn't capable of doing it.

3rd party support is often the deciding factor for people choosing a product - be it software, hardware or something else. I've heard many people say that even though other MP3 players have certain advantages, they want to get an iPod because there are a lot of speaker systems and accessories that support it and don't support other players. The same concept applies to Linux and other operating systems. The most popular option of the "In your opinion what is the biggest setback that is preventing Linux to widespread? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=88023&highlight=BIGGEST+SETBACK)" is "3rd party support", and Linux is not suitable for many households and users because of this. Given time, however, this may change as Linux becomes more popular and gains more third-party support. In the future Linux might work for the original poster's household, but in my opinion it will be not more because it will become more "workable off the box" or become "easy to deploy and maintain" (because I think it's good enough to compete, even though it still needs work) but more because people like ISP's and schools provide more support and instructions for it. Being able to achieve results with software easily and with little technical knowldege is a factor in this particular situation, but I don't think it's the larger, main one. I agree that we'll have to wait until Linux reaches a "critical mass" until places like schools will start teaching Linux or many third parties like internet services provide support - and Linux may never get to that point.