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pepsifx357
May 28th, 2012, 06:42 PM
I'm not sure if this belongs here, but here it is...

I saw this in the comments section of a blog posting about how Linux would eventually crush MS. This was posted back in January 14, 2009. A little dated, but worth a read.(Edited for easy reading)


Linux has failed and will continue to fail because the developers starting with torvalds and going down WILL NOT LISTEN to those that matter, the retailer and the consumers they support.

i'm a retailer, hi! And I won't carry your product, why? because you will not listen, that's why. I've been saying for years you either need a 10 years support cycle like MSFT or you need a stable ABI so when Suzy hits the upgrade button Linux doesn't go "Oops I made a stinky" all over the drivers. I've tried more than 20 versions so far and NOT A SINGLE ONE did an in place upgrade without making a stinky on one or more drivers, not a single one. XP support 2001-2014, Vista 2007-2017, Win 7 2009-202, noticing a trend here folks? the average distro? a year and a half, LTS, less than 5 year and you better plan sales around their release schedule which of course as a retailer I can't.

So here it is the start of the great XP dieoff, I've got tons of frankly overpowered XP desktops and laptops starting to pile up, a perfect opportunity for your OS, yet i'm scrambling to find a source for Win 7 Starter, why? because you won't listen, you've never listened, and therefor you deserve to fail.

you believe you can force people to do things the linux way but they won't, no Bash, no forum hunts, no "open up bash and type" CLI mess, the consumers won't play your reindeer games. instead of giving me an OS with support long enough they wouldn't have to in just the last 3 years you've gutted the DEs and given us Pulseaudio which is a buggy mess.

So I'm sorry Mr Nichols but MSFT could charge 3 times the price and Linux would go nowhere, not because we retailers love MSFT but because your fiddly mess of an OS would bankrupt us.

A wise man once said "Linux is free if your time is worthless" and no truer words have been spoken. To sell Linux I would have to keep spares to give the customer when the latest upgrade borks their sound and it takes me a week to find a "fix", I would have to try to keep an assortment of printers, cameras, and other devices because otherwise its hardware roulette thanks to the lack of API making it impossible for manufacturers to simply put a penguin on the box, and i would have to do all of this while still making a profit and not being undercut by the shop down the street that just put Windows home on the machines. that is simply impossible which is why Dell loses money on every ubuntu machine sold, the support makes Linux more expensive than Windows.

Anyone want to weigh in on this? Because this IS the horses mouth. What could we do to solve this problem? Or is this the ranting of an ignorant merchant who could sell Linux if he knew what he was doing? I see companies like System76 and Ohava that look like they're doing well. So what's the deal?

Lars Noodén
May 28th, 2012, 07:04 PM
It's a troll and the points have been refuted repeatedly during the last decade. One of the things it is meant to do is distract from the monopoly MS has on desktop OEMs. No one has succeeded in breaking that yet, though it might come in the side door via tablets and smartphones.

There is word that Ubuntu might soon ship on 5% of systems:

http://www.phoronix.com/scant .php?page=news_item&px=MTA5ODM

If that happens it might help break the grip on the OEMs. Once that grip is broken the first time, the path becomes clear.

This thread should really be over in the Cafe.

rai4shu2
May 29th, 2012, 06:53 PM
If this thread were in the cafe, it would immediately be filed under "recurring" and be buried.

Smaller retails do just fine with Linux. It's the larger ones that are doomed. Larger retails have been brainwashed by Microsoft marketing. They don't really care about the facts. They want profits handed to them on a silver platter.

Big retails need to grow up, stop acting like criminals, stop being idiotic and wasteful, put their noses to the grind stone and sell. Stop trying to steal profits for a change, and then maybe they won't have to merge/go bankrupt every couple years or so.

nothingspecial
May 29th, 2012, 06:59 PM
If this thread were in the cafe, it would immediately be filed under "recurring" and be buried.



Discussions do not need to start in the cafe to be moved to recurring.

And it's not to bury them it's just that we've done this a bazillion times already.

thatguruguy
May 29th, 2012, 07:22 PM
I'm not sure if this belongs here, but here it is...

I saw this in the comments section of a blog posting about how Linux would eventually crush MS. This was posted back in January 14, 2009. A little dated, but worth a read.(Edited for easy reading)



Anyone want to weigh in on this? Because this IS the horses mouth. What could we do to solve this problem? Or is this the ranting of an ignorant merchant who could sell Linux if he knew what he was doing? I see companies like System76 and Ohava that look like they're doing well. So what's the deal?

What retailer is this? Jeff Bezos? Bill Simon (CEO of Walmart)? Mike Mikan (interim CEO of Best Buy)? Or is it Timmy Smith, part-time cashier at Fred Johnson's Computers 'n' Cellphones?

Copper Bezel
May 29th, 2012, 08:16 PM
It's not untrue that the faster-moving OS is harder to target. For instance, Amazon.com wrote a monetized-secure-download app for music tracks on Ubuntu 9.04, and it's still on the website (the download link comes up when you buy an mp3 album.) Yet, it's not installable since 10.04 because of a broken dependency, and the current correct method for purchasing an mp3 album from Amazon on Ubuntu is to do so within Banshee. (I don't think Rhythmbox even has a plugin for it.)

Small, iterative changes are inherently necessary in Linux and make a lot of trouble for software distributors. Rolling distros help at least on the hardware end, but things can still break, and end-user software still has to keep up with changes. A stable, perpetually-legacy OS that software developers have to hack around and jerry-rig and that drivers are installed on top of, like Windows, really does have an advantage here over a system that's built more "logically."

Of course, software vendors would be more apt to maintain their **** if "Linux" was a single target with more than 2% (or whatever) market share.

rai4shu2
May 29th, 2012, 11:09 PM
I'm not sure if this belongs here, but here it is...

No offense, but anyone who would say things that are so obviously false does not know anything about computers, let alone the subtle details of an operating system. Such comments say more about the fool who made them than about Linux, and I suggest you stop communicating with such people (or at least show their ignorant remarks the disdainful silence they deserve).

aysiu
May 29th, 2012, 11:38 PM
Even if there aren't legitimate technical issues, the fact that a vendor could think this way means there are definitely marketing/messaging issues.

ExSuSEusr
May 30th, 2012, 01:03 AM
Step 1 - Stop releasing a new distro every six months. It's pointless. It's over kill. It does more harm than good in the end. Let the current distro mature, learn the bugs, learn the issues and with that knowledge implement stable changes into the next version - which should be at the very least a year away - not six months.

Step 2 - Advertise. A couple of well placed commercials would do wonders.

thatguruguy
May 30th, 2012, 01:10 PM
Even if there aren't legitimate technical issues, the fact that a vendor could think this way means there are definitely marketing/messaging issues.

I think that depends upon the vendor. For instance, I would expect that the Apple Store would point out flaws with Linux, whether real or imaginary.

zombifier25
May 30th, 2012, 01:18 PM
The moment I see "the developers starting with torvalds" I knew that comment is a total waste of time. Who wrote it apparently can't figure out the differences between the Internet and a big blue E.
Linus only wrote the freaking kernel. If you don't know what you're talking about, shut up.

pepsifx357
May 30th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Ok....That's what I thought.

Thanks guys.

aysiu
May 30th, 2012, 03:06 PM
I think that depends upon the vendor. For instance, I would expect that the Apple Store would point out flaws with Linux, whether real or imaginary.
Contextually (see the first post in the thread) this is about a vendor explaining why it's not using Linux. Apple doesn't have to explain that any more than Coke needs to explain why it doesn't use Pepsi.

0011235813
May 30th, 2012, 08:01 PM
Linux has failed and will continue to fail because the developers starting with torvalds and going down WILL NOT LISTEN to those that matter, the retailer and the consumers they support.

i'm a retailer, hi! And I won't carry your product, why? because you will not listen, that's why. I've been saying for years you either need a 10 years support cycle like MSFT or you need a stable ABI so when Suzy hits the upgrade button Linux doesn't go "Oops I made a stinky" all over the drivers. I've tried more than 20 versions so far and NOT A SINGLE ONE did an in place upgrade without making a stinky on one or more drivers, not a single one. XP support 2001-2014, Vista 2007-2017, Win 7 2009-202, noticing a trend here folks? the average distro? a year and a half, LTS, less than 5 year and you better plan sales around their release schedule which of course as a retailer I can't.

So here it is the start of the great XP dieoff, I've got tons of frankly overpowered XP desktops and laptops starting to pile up, a perfect opportunity for your OS, yet i'm scrambling to find a source for Win 7 Starter, why? because you won't listen, you've never listened, and therefor you deserve to fail.

you believe you can force people to do things the linux way but they won't, no Bash, no forum hunts, no "open up bash and type" CLI mess, the consumers won't play your reindeer games. instead of giving me an OS with support long enough they wouldn't have to in just the last 3 years you've gutted the DEs and given us Pulseaudio which is a buggy mess.

So I'm sorry Mr Nichols but MSFT could charge 3 times the price and Linux would go nowhere, not because we retailers love MSFT but because your fiddly mess of an OS would bankrupt us.

A wise man once said "Linux is free if your time is worthless" and no truer words have been spoken. To sell Linux I would have to keep spares to give the customer when the latest upgrade borks their sound and it takes me a week to find a "fix", I would have to try to keep an assortment of printers, cameras, and other devices because otherwise its hardware roulette thanks to the lack of API making it impossible for manufacturers to simply put a penguin on the box, and i would have to do all of this while still making a profit and not being undercut by the shop down the street that just put Windows home on the machines. that is simply impossible which is why Dell loses money on every ubuntu machine sold, the support makes Linux more expensive than Windows.

Linux has failed? What's running 84% of servers, 90% of sumpercomputers (including every one of the top ten, like the Fujitsu K), 58% of smartphones (and about 90% of non-smartphones), 38% of tablets, and around 8% of desktops/laptops?!! Clearly, you're so stupid you don't even know the facts.

Oh sure, pretty much every Linux dev I've seen frequently ask what the consumer wants, but sure as hell they're not going to listen to YOU.
ABIs? What the hell are you going on about you clueless moron? Oh, you meant to say Application Programming Interface (API)? And if they don't work, what's with all the 40 000 odd Linux applications then?

Linux updates haven't been breaking drivers for years, only bleedin' edge self-compiled drivers used by devs, not "Suzy".

Sorry for not keeping an ancient OS alive. After all, surely we must keep our OS slow, buggy and insecure for the purposes of "legacy support". BTW, every heard of Debian?

Eh? The few things that require CLI are stuff like apparmor, which consumers aren't going to concern themselves with. There's a GUI for pretyy much anything else, so I don't know what you're blathering on about. Also, most people don't like going through a dozen or more instructions of "click edit, then preferences, then look for x tab..." when they can just stick a command to copy and paste. Although judging from your tone, you probably don't know how to copy and paste?

Pulseaudio is working fine for me.... And gutted the DEs? What are you going on about?

If Dell was losing so much money on Ubuntu computers, why are they making a new series based of XPS13? Oh, and what about System76, ZaReason, Ohava, ThinkPenguin, Emperor Linux, eRacks, Linux City, PCs for everyone?

I've thoroughly debunked the guys crap, OP you can sleep in peace, and direct these muppets to me so I can teach them a thing or two about making ignorant, baseless comments of something they clearly don't understand.

KiwiNZ
May 30th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Linux has failed? What's running 84% of servers, 90% of sumpercomputers (including every one of the top ten, like the Fujitsu K), 58% of smartphones (and about 90% of non-smartphones), 38% of tablets, and around 8% of desktops/laptops?!! Clearly, you're so stupid you don't even know the facts.

Oh sure, pretty much every Linux dev I've seen frequently ask what the consumer wants, but sure as hell they're not going to listen to YOU.
ABIs? What the hell are you going on about you clueless moron? Oh, you meant to say Application Programming Interface (API)? And if they don't work, what's with all the 40 000 odd Linux applications then?

Linux updates haven't been breaking drivers for years, only bleedin' edge self-compiled drivers used by devs, not "Suzy".

Sorry for not keeping an ancient OS alive. After all, surely we must keep our OS slow, buggy and insecure for the purposes of "legacy support". BTW, every heard of Debian?

Eh? The few things that require CLI are stuff like apparmor, which consumers aren't going to concern themselves with. There's a GUI for pretyy much anything else, so I don't know what you're blathering on about. Also, most people don't like going through a dozen or more instructions of "click edit, then preferences, then look for x tab..." when they can just stick a command to copy and paste. Although judging from your tone, you probably don't know how to copy and paste?

Pulseaudio is working fine for me.... And gutted the DEs? What are you going on about?

If Dell was losing so much money on Ubuntu computers, why are they making a new series based of XPS13? Oh, and what about System76, ZaReason, Ohava, ThinkPenguin, Emperor Linux, eRacks, Linux City, PCs for everyone?

I've thoroughly debunked the guys crap, OP you can sleep in peace, and direct these muppets to me so I can teach them a thing or two about making ignorant, baseless comments of something they clearly don't understand.

Your post needs considerable review and research to correct its accuracy.

codingman
May 30th, 2012, 11:34 PM
I hardly had to read the entire thing to understand, but I read it all.

Linux has failed and will continue to fail because the developers starting with torvalds and going down WILL NOT LISTEN to those that matter, the retailer and the consumers they support.

i'm a retailer, hi! And I won't carry your product, why? because you will not listen, that's why. I've been saying for years you either need a 10 years support cycle like MSFT or you need a stable ABI so when Suzy hits the upgrade button Linux doesn't go "Oops I made a stinky" all over the drivers. I've tried more than 20 versions so far and NOT A SINGLE ONE did an in place upgrade without making a stinky on one or more drivers, not a single one. XP support 2001-2014, Vista 2007-2017, Win 7 2009-202, noticing a trend here folks? the average distro? a year and a half, LTS, less than 5 year and you better plan sales around their release schedule which of course as a retailer I can't.

So here it is the start of the great XP dieoff, I've got tons of frankly overpowered XP desktops and laptops starting to pile up, a perfect opportunity for your OS, yet i'm scrambling to find a source for Win 7 Starter, why? because you won't listen, you've never listened, and therefor you deserve to fail.

you believe you can force people to do things the linux way but they won't, no Bash, no forum hunts, no "open up bash and type" CLI mess, the consumers won't play your reindeer games. instead of giving me an OS with support long enough they wouldn't have to in just the last 3 years you've gutted the DEs and given us Pulseaudio which is a buggy mess.

So I'm sorry Mr Nichols but MSFT could charge 3 times the price and Linux would go nowhere, not because we retailers love MSFT but because your fiddly mess of an OS would bankrupt us.

A wise man once said "Linux is free if your time is worthless" and no truer words have been spoken. To sell Linux I would have to keep spares to give the customer when the latest upgrade borks their sound and it takes me a week to find a "fix", I would have to try to keep an assortment of printers, cameras, and other devices because otherwise its hardware roulette thanks to the lack of API making it impossible for manufacturers to simply put a penguin on the box, and i would have to do all of this while still making a profit and not being undercut by the shop down the street that just put Windows home on the machines. that is simply impossible which is why Dell loses money on every ubuntu machine sold, the support makes Linux more expensive than Windows.
Ok, lets take this idiots lines and make some retorts for it.

Where in the world has linux failed??? Linux is being used in the server he has put his blog on! Being used in many systems such as smartphones and tablets, to TV converters! Torvalds made the kernel, not the UI! Shutup idiot, you don't use linux as you have made this post in your blog! So don't comment that the devs don't listen to the people who use linux, for we have entirely helpful wikis and bug programs that were produced for devs and users! While Windows doesn't care the slightest on user preference, it just wanders around in it's non-open-source OS and says they are the only ones who can develop the OS.

Your the idiot who won't listen! The idiot who says linux has failed, and who doesn't even listen to linux users or even know that a lot of the things that you take for granted, use linux kernels! Oh, I see, your only proof of devs not listening is that there isn't ten year support cycles? Well, listen up, the reason we don't have that is because there are new versions in like one year after release; at the very most, and the drivers "Suzy" would be using, would not be unstable. Linux has more drivers that windows does, so don't say the linux drivers are unstable. What's ABI supposed to stand for? American Bankruptcy Institute? Do you mean API? The interface on programs is nowhere near instability, it's even better than all of those little GUI candy wrappers Windows uses to hide what they call "scary" kernels, but then they have to leave a little kernel so that people can just take a little morsel of the candy inside the GUI. You also don't need a big reinstall, you just do a couple of terminal commands (or use the GUI) and bada-bing! Newer release!

We deserve to be failed? We? You microsoft freaks who think tablets are the future of everything deserve to be failed.

Oh, where in the world is the advantage of gui's? I bet I could put some pretty text and a pretty background on a command line and you wouldn't even notice! Where in the world are linux users forcing people to use the command line? The command line was only supposed to be used for people who were sane and wanted to go the faster way. There is no problem with pulseaudio, and where in the world have we "gutted DE's"? Windows is the one who just mushed up the window theme, the GTK theme, icon theme, DE, WM; all of that stuff, into something called a "theme" with only limited customization without hacking it or patching it.

Buying linux support would not be as much as Windows.

I REST MY CASE!

thatguruguy
May 31st, 2012, 12:41 AM
Contextually (see the first post in the thread) this is about a vendor explaining why it's not using Linux. Apple doesn't have to explain that any more than Coke needs to explain why it doesn't use Pepsi.

Agreed. However, as I mentioned before, it still depends on whether the "vendor" who wrote the screed is the CEO of Best Buy, or if it's a counter jockey at the locally-owned computer store who has never actually used Linux in his life, but is nevertheless absolutely convinced that Linux is a terrible, terrible thing only appropriate for geeks and masochists. Without knowing more about this particular self-claimed vendor, it's difficult to judge the veracity of the reasons he's given.

cariboo
May 31st, 2012, 12:45 AM
Closed for staff review. There are quite a few C of C violations in this thread.

Edit: After disscussing this thread with the rest of the stafff, this thread will remain closed.