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musther
June 14th, 2006, 09:54 PM
I use Gnome, I have used KDE but thought Gnome was cleaner and faster.

There are a lot of people around who say that I should use KDE, but I really can't see what it has that Gnome doesn't. Also, a lot of KDE fans go on about how many features have been removed from Gnome, recently Linus Torvalds had a go at Gnome, saying that it had features removed and treated the user like an idiot. What are these features which Gnome has (supposedly) lost, and which (I assume) KDE is supposed to have?

I don't want this to turn into a Gnome v KDE fight to the death, I just want some answers.

Fred Doolie
June 14th, 2006, 10:03 PM
use KDE, but I really can't see what it has that Gnome doesn't.

Massive eyecandy and a huge "WOW!" factor? Kinda like Winblows on steroids.


I use Gnome, I have used KDE but thought Gnome was cleaner and faster.

So do I.
-----------------------------
I've shown both to my friends. Reaction to Gnome was like "OK, big whoop."
Reaction to KDE was like "Awesome! Linux *IS* better than Windows!!!"

deadgobby
June 14th, 2006, 10:04 PM
I think it is a matter of opion really. You have fans of either of Gnome and KDE or both. My wife likes Gnome and I like KDE. We do not fight over what o/s to run. We do run G as primary desktop though. Both have good and bad points and crap like that. However most of the music programs are on the Gnome side of things. Any hooo. Thats my soap box
Gobby

OffHand
June 14th, 2006, 10:04 PM
I use Gnome, I have used KDE but thought Gnome was cleaner and faster.

There are a lot of people around who say that I should use KDE, but I really can't see what it has that Gnome doesn't. Also, a lot of KDE fans go on about how many features have been removed from Gnome, recently Linus Torvalds had a go at Gnome, saying that it had features removed and treated the user like an idiot. What are these features which Gnome has (supposedly) lost, and which (I assume) KDE is supposed to have?

I don't want this to turn into a Gnome v KDE fight to the death, I just want some answers.
The only right answer is: use whatever suits you best/are most comfortable with.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 10:10 PM
There are a lot of people around who say that I should use KDE, but I really can't see what it has that Gnome doesn't. I won't say KDE or Gnome is necessarily better than the other one, but if you want to know things you can do in KDE that you either can't do in Gnome or you can't do easily in Gnome:

1. Rotating wallpapers
2. One wallpaper per virtual desktop
3. Print even/odd pages only
4. Time-delay screenshots
5. List pictures in the file manager so that you can see the dimensions underneath the picture
6. Make the taskbar completely transparent
7. Edit every part of the menu (not just the applications part)
8. Have a Mac-style toolbar that has the applications' menu in it

I could easily make a list of things that easier to do in Gnome, too, but that's not what you asked.

Chimes
June 14th, 2006, 10:22 PM
Honestly, subsonic's pretty much got it down. In the long run, they both get the job done. KDE's a bit slower to load up, and takes a tad more memory, but it's a bit more new-user-friendly. KDE4, which is coming in a few months, will be much faster and take up much less memory (or so I hear), because it's going to be based off of the efficient QT4 library. I have no idea how it will compare to gnome.

But I got off topic there. The point is, you don't need to figure out from other people which one is the "best" or even what makes one "better" than the other. If you try one, and you like it more or less than the other, well, use that one! And if you like them both equally, well, use either one, it doesn't matter! It's all a matter of arbitrary personal taste. Isn't that cool! :)

Personally, I use KDE. Not because I think Gnome sucks. Heavens no, I think Gnome is awesome. I just use KDE because I like having all my desktop taskbars at only one side of the screen at a time. In gnome you have one on the top and one on the bottom, with KDE you can just have one (or none at all with a tweak here or there), and that's something I like, so that's why I use KDE. See? It's all a total matter of do-whatever-you-feel-like.

(Okay, have to say this, it's mandatory... see, that's why I love linux... because it's so gol-darned flexible. You can bend and mould it to whatever shape fits you best, and it can still run like a charm.)

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 10:29 PM
I just use KDE because I like having all my desktop taskbars at only one side of the screen at a time. In gnome you have one on the top and one on the bottom, with KDE you can just have one (or none at all with a tweak here or there), and that's something I like, so that's why I use KDE. That's just the default panel configuration for Gnome.

You can just easily combine all your task stuff to one toolbar at the bottom.

Hoffmann
June 14th, 2006, 10:42 PM
I use Gnome, I have used KDE but thought Gnome was cleaner and faster.

There are a lot of people around who say that I should use KDE, but I really can't see what it has that Gnome doesn't. Also, a lot of KDE fans go on about how many features have been removed from Gnome, recently Linus Torvalds had a go at Gnome, saying that it had features removed and treated the user like an idiot. What are these features which Gnome has (supposedly) lost, and which (I assume) KDE is supposed to have?

I don't want this to turn into a Gnome v KDE fight to the death, I just want some answers.

I prefer GNOME.
In my opinion KDE is extremely ugly. I hate those blue icons. Moreover, I think GNOME is cleaner than KDE.
I gave a try on Kunbuntu, but I went back to (GNOME) Ubuntu.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 10:44 PM
I prefer GNOME.
In my opinion KDE is extremely ugly. I hate those blue icons. Moreover, I think GNOME is cleaner than KDE.
I gave a try on Kunbuntu, but I went back to (GNOME) Ubuntu.
The blue icons can be changed for other icons.

It seems to me a lot of people are missing out on the fact that both Gnome and KDE can be changed from their default looks.

Hoffmann
June 14th, 2006, 10:47 PM
The blue icons can be changed for other icons.

It seems to me a lot of people are missing out on the fact that both Gnome and KDE can be changed from their default looks.
Yes, sure. I have done that, but I didn't like it also. Can you send me a pic of your Kunbuto screen? Just to see if I would change my mind?

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 10:49 PM
Okay. Just want to make sure you're ditching KDE for the right reasons.

I happen to love both, and I think neither is "ugly." I switch back and forth all the time.

bruce89
June 14th, 2006, 10:49 PM
You can make KDE look just like GNOME, and GNOME like KDE. One thing is that QT looks rubbish in GNOME, but GTK+ looks fine in KDE, as it has a special theme. I would have thought that being able to run QT apps in GNOME properly would be more advantagous than being able to run good looking GTK+ apps in KDE.

someusernoob
June 14th, 2006, 10:52 PM
I just feel better using Gnome. Clean and simple. It looks "warm" tho.

Really, I installed KDE on the other machine, and after using it for 5 minutes I really became sick of it. Every thing is just to shiny and bouncing up and down* and it was making me crazy. And of course that almost everything has to be written with a K. Way to overdone imo.

I understand that some people prefer KDE above Gnome just for those effects, and say Gnome is boring. But not me. And its awesome that you can actually choose what kind of desktop/window manager you would like to have.

* I have to admit that I use Xgl/compiz, and it also bounces up and down, but in a more natural way.

manicka
June 14th, 2006, 10:57 PM
As long as you're using Linux I couldn't care less what environment you choose to operate in. As long as you enjoy it and continue to do so, then Linux is the winner, which is what it's really all about.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 11:03 PM
Yes, sure. I have done that, but I didn't like it also. Can you send me a pic of your Kunbuto screen? Just to see if I would change my mind? I doubt my screenshots would change your mind. I don't really soup up my desktop that much.

Here are some pretty interesting ones I found on Google, though:
http://tomy.morel.free.fr/linux/captures/kde-acqua_01.jpg
http://www.kadu.net/screenshots/Kadu-0.3.6_2003.12.24_Zieloo(KDE%203.1).png
http://www.plig.org/xwinman/screenshots/kde-anakin.jpg

lazyd2
June 14th, 2006, 11:07 PM
I just love both of them.:KS

The only thing I like better in gnome is that I can set up XGL easier than KDE:D

Anyway here is a screenshot

Hoffmann
June 14th, 2006, 11:10 PM
As long as you're using Linux I couldn't care less what environment you choose to operate in. As long as you enjoy it and continue to do so, then Linux is the winner, which is what it's really all about.
Defenitely, you are correct!

bailout
June 14th, 2006, 11:11 PM
I had both gnome and kde installed with breezy but wanted to just have one with dapper. When I looked at the apps I use I decided I mostly preferred the kde versions and hence went for kubuntu. As has been said GTK apps seem to work very well in kde whereas kde apps don't always work that well in gnome. A major factor for me was the file manager. I really disliked nautilus and konqueror didn't work very well under gnome.

It does annoy/amuse me to see people saying they don't like kde because of the colour of the icons or the layout of the toolbar as these things are very easy to change. After using gnome for a while I actually set up kde the same way for a while although I have now decided to go back to one bar. I dislike the default ubuntu gnome colour scheme but I wouldn't base my choice of distro on it, I just changed the colour scheme.

I would say to decide which apps you mostly prefer and base your de choice on that but they both really do the same thing.

Hoffmann
June 14th, 2006, 11:13 PM
I doubt my screenshots would change your mind. I don't really soup up my desktop that much.

Here are some pretty interesting ones I found on Google, though:
http://tomy.morel.free.fr/linux/captures/kde-acqua_01.jpg
http://www.kadu.net/screenshots/Kadu-0.3.6_2003.12.24_Zieloo(KDE%203.1).png
http://www.plig.org/xwinman/screenshots/kde-anakin.jpg

Hey aysiu,

I did like your Mac-like Kunbutu style. :D
Actually, I think all is just a matter of test. The important is that linux and, Ubuntu in special, rocks! ;)

Dr_Deadmeat
June 14th, 2006, 11:14 PM
I use gnome and KDE, but I do think that I want to get rid of KDE to get XFCE because it runs to slow for me... I preffer speed and efficency ahead of a nice looking dekstop (especially because of my computer specs), so I will give XFCE a chance or I will stay with gnome... I really liked the KDE effects, and it looked nice I thought, but it was to slow and memory consuming (in 256 ram) so I will problary not use KDE as my primary DE =)

asimon
June 14th, 2006, 11:18 PM
whereas kde apps don't always work that well in gnome.
Are there any examples?



I really disliked nautilus and konqueror didn't work very well under gnome.

Why doesn't konqueror work well under Gnome? Does Gnome make it difficult to define an other default file manager or web browser? It shouldn't.

Hoffmann
June 14th, 2006, 11:19 PM
I had both gnome and kde installed with breezy but wanted to just have one with dapper. When I looked at the apps I use I decided I mostly preferred the kde versions and hence went for kubuntu. As has been said GTK apps seem to work very well in kde whereas kde apps don't always work that well in gnome. A major factor for me was the file manager. I really disliked nautilus and konqueror didn't work very well under gnome.

It does annoy/amuse me to see people saying they don't like kde because of the colour of the icons or the layout of the toolbar as these things are very easy to change. After using gnome for a while I actually set up kde the same way for a while although I have now decided to go back to one bar. I dislike the default ubuntu gnome colour scheme but I wouldn't base my choice of distro on it, I just changed the colour scheme.

I would say to decide which apps you mostly prefer and base your de choice on that but they both really do the same thing.

No problem...
I just think people would switch to KDE because the really love it. Not because Linus Torvalds likes it. ;)
It's funny when people mention that Linus told that KDE is "better" than GNOME.
Come on, I do believe in God. .....But, not in linux world.
Please, don't get me wrong. I am a Linus Torvalds fun!

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 11:19 PM
I think bailout is talking about he way the KDE apps look in Gnome--the look doesn't "work."

In KDE, my Synaptic and Epiphany looks just like KDE applications.

Hoffmann
June 14th, 2006, 11:27 PM
I think bailout is talking about he way the KDE apps look in Gnome--the look doesn't "work."

In KDE, my Synaptic and Epiphany looks just like KDE applications.
Sure. I think I repplied in the wrong place. My "parenthesis" is regarding the thread in general; NOT for that person I replied, only.

opensourcerocks
June 14th, 2006, 11:44 PM
I don't use either one.
I use XFCE!

Hoffmann
June 14th, 2006, 11:51 PM
A nice link. Check it out:

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/kdevsgnome.php

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 11:54 PM
A nice link. Check it out:

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/kdevsgnome.php aysiu wrote it, i believe.

i voted for gnome because kde doesn't offer me anything that gnome can't

maagimies
June 15th, 2006, 12:34 AM
Kde works faster on my machine then Gnome, even though it consumes more memory... But the main reason I like KDE is because it has a more solid codebase. Gnome's source is like something I would have wrote :p
edit:
Also, Gnome just hides away so much from you. When I was testing Gnome I was constantly bashing my head against a wall while trying to do some regular things, and forced to use something like Gconf(Windows registry anyone?)
It's funny how people say KDE = Windows clone, while Gnome (In my opinion) acts more like Windows, hiding things away from you and treating you like you know nothing.

Nonno Bassotto
June 15th, 2006, 01:26 AM
I prefer Gnome, and use it, but KDE does one thing Gnome doesn't, and it is one of the most useful features I can think of. In both Gnome and KDE you can add scripts to your right-click menu; I don't know exactly how this works in KDE, but in Gnome you just have to copy those scripts in ~/.gnome2/nautilus-scripts and you're done.

But in KDE you can distinguish which scripts appear in the menu on a MIME-type basis. This means that if you right-click on a jpeg, you will get some options, like rotate or resize or whatever, on a mp3 other options, like convert in ogg or play or enqueue, on a pdf other options and so on.

With scripts you can add whatever feature you like, it will be just one click away. And you don't have to know how to make this scripts, a lot of them can be downloaded, you just have to copy them.

But all this becomes really useful only when you have lots of scripts. In Gnome you can't have so many scripts, simply because you won't be able to find them in a looooong list. In KDE you can have, say, three or four useful things for the music, same for images, pdf, latex files, iso....

I really wish Nautilus was able to do this. :-( But Nautilus devs don't care a lot about this, sadly.

musther
June 15th, 2006, 01:50 AM
In up to date versions of nautilus you can create directories which work as sub menus for your scripts, this is a good way to tidy them up.

A lot of people have said that I should use which ever works best for me, and for me that's gnome, that's why I use it. I wasn't asking for advice, just information. Maybe the thread title was a little misleading.

aysiu
June 15th, 2006, 01:52 AM
The only way I responded to you was telling you what you couldn't do on Gnome easily that you could do easily in KDE... because that's what you asked for.

musther
June 15th, 2006, 01:59 AM
I didn't mean your post, or any other specifically, but a number of posts basically said, 'use what's best for you'. I'm just trying to clear up the matter of what I was interested in, sorry.

Nonno Bassotto
June 15th, 2006, 02:07 AM
In up to date versions of nautilus you can create directories which work as sub menus for your scripts, this is a good way to tidy them up.

Sadly, I know this. I think it only makes things worst, because you then have to navigate three levels to reach what you need. Why sadly? Because Nautilus devs had to decide between:
1) Using nautilus-scripts subfolders to divide scripts by mime-types (say a image folder, a sound folder and so on...)
2) Using nautilus-scripts subfolders to have script menu submenus

...and they chose the latter. :-(

musther
June 15th, 2006, 04:26 AM
I agree, it would have been good if they had done it the other way, who knows, maybe they still will. We can be hopeful at least. :D

vinodis
June 15th, 2006, 04:50 AM
you need to know how to compile etc. if you want to customize the KDE themes etc. But its very very easy with GNome. No compilation required. Just use the theme manager. There are plenty of Gnome themes which are very nice.
Most of the KDE applicatioins work and look pretty ok in Gnome.

Fred Doolie
June 15th, 2006, 06:56 AM
I applaud the way the group handled the question without starting a war.

Sushi
June 15th, 2006, 07:49 AM
I used KDE for years, but I have now used GNOME for few months. It would be good for everyone to try out new things once in a while :). I like KDE, and I like GNOME. It's clear to me that the two have different philosophies behind them, and they both show that philosophy quite well. And I think that KDE can be made to look clean. Here's (http://www.nbl.fi/~nbl48/desktop2.png) my KDE-desktop (back when I still used it that is). Yes, the forum is Gentoo-forums, but the distro is Kubuntu ;).

That said, what does KDE have that GNOME doesn't have? Well, here are few things I have run in to:

- KDE has an "universal sidebar", GNOME does not. Universal Sidebar can contain you filesystem, Amarok-playlists, bookmarks, network-servers, you name it. It's like the Nautilus-sidebar on steroids :). The idea behind Universal Sidebar that it's available all the time (well, usually it's configured to hide automatically).

- Like it was already mentioned: KDE support Mac OS-style menubar, GNOME does not. If you like Mac-menubar, KDE is your only choice.

- KDE is way ahead of GNOME in "network transparency". KDE can handle remote filesystems just like if they were part of local filesystem. Example: When I moved to GNOME, I had to importbunch of photos from an FTP-server to F-spot. In GNOME/F-spot, I couldn't import them directly from the FTP-server, I had to first manually copy them to the local machine, and import them from there. In KDE, I could have import them to Digikam straight from the FTP, since for KDE it does not matter whether it's a local or remote filesystem.

- Konqueror is a better filemanager than Nautilus is. I love the Fish-kioslave, which allows you to work on remote filesystem through SSH just like they were on the local machine. Combine that with split-view, and copying files between remote and local systems is a breeze.

- KDE support desktop-wide mouse-gestures, GNOME does not (IIRC; GNOME doesn't support mouse-gestures at all).

- KDE has "window-specific"-settings, GNOME does not. On my system I had set up my system so that all Konqueror-windows are opened in Desktop 2, and Kmail is opened to Desktop 1. I could also tell the system to automatically minimize certain apps when they are loaded, place the window on specific location, prevent it from stealing focus and so forth. GNOME does not have that. If I wanted to take advantage of multiple workspace in GNOME, I would have to manually move windows and apps to other

- Not really KDE/GNOME-issue, but.... To me, bookmarking was a lot more pleasant in Konqueror than in Firefox/Epiphany. In KDE, bookmarking was a single-click operation. In Firefox/Epiphany I have to specify in which bookmark-folder I add the bookmark to, in KDE I can add it directly to corrent folder, without going through extra steps.

- KDE has more fine-grained theming. Quite often I have seen an interesting GNOME-theme, only to ntoice that some color it uses is not perfect. And I haven't found a way to adjust those colors. In KDE it's very easy to change things like that.

Well, those are the things that popped to my head first :).

brantleyr
June 15th, 2006, 08:08 AM
I use Fluxbox :D Its light and fast and looks just as beautiful as KDE, gnome, or any other WM out there, if themed right. Simplicity is beautiful also. But dont get me wrong, I have tried every WM out there, XFCE, gnome,kde, FVWM (another one of my personal favorites) , enlightenment,blackbox, wm, and icewm.

GeneralZod
June 15th, 2006, 09:50 AM
I applaud the way the group handled the question without starting a war.

Ditto - I think we may have a first, here. Well done, people :)

nocturn
June 15th, 2006, 10:06 AM
4. Time-delay screenshots


The Gimp can do this, with aquire - screenshot

manicka
June 15th, 2006, 11:30 AM
The Gimp can do this, with aquire - screenshot

or just run the command in alt-f2

gnome-screenshot --delay=5 (or whatever length of time you require)

asimon
June 15th, 2006, 12:00 PM
or just run the command in alt-f2

gnome-screenshot --delay=5 (or whatever length of time you require)
Which is nothing you came up with intuitively. The gnome screenshot tool would be more user friendly to offer the delay function in a more accessible way without the need to use a command line. This is why I like KDE much more. The functions and configurations are not hidden, I don't have to read a manual to find them. The resulting bigger menus and toolbars and configuration dialogs may be more confusing but I still find what I am looking for much faster (given that it's there in Gnome at all).

yaztromo
June 15th, 2006, 12:05 PM
I prefer KDE over Gnome. I find it looks pretty, is more tweakable and Kwin feels so much more snappy than metacity at window drawing.

To me KDE feels much more like an OS for power users. Gnome seems simple and "clunky" to me.

beniwtv
June 15th, 2006, 12:14 PM
I personally prefer GNOME. But's a question of the taste of every user. In fact, both desktops are usuable.

However, I'd like to see a great improvement in the Gnome's network admin tool. Ok, it works so far, but Kppp is still a lot better. For example, I've got the modem connection listed in the network tool, but I don't have the ability to even use a empty password (hugh!). And I can't configure more than one connection, or more than one ISP with the same modem.

ComplexNumber
June 15th, 2006, 01:33 PM
- KDE has more fine-grained theming. Quite often I have seen an interesting GNOME-theme, only to ntoice that some color it uses is not perfect. And I haven't found a way to adjust those colors. In KDE it's very easy to change things like that. actually, i think you'll find that its the other way around. for theming gnome is lightyears ahead of kde. kde-type colour schemes will be here in gtk 2.9 and beyond. also, gnome allows for mixing and matching of engines - kde doesn't. the styles(ie engines) in kde can't be taken and modified like they can in gnome - all those gtk themes are not just modifications of colour, but modifications of style too.

awakatanka
June 15th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Mostly i agree with sushi his post.

I like KDE a little more because for me it works more pleasant and i can tweak a lot of things i want.

A screenshot of my desktop http://kubuntuforums.net/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_60.png

You can make it look the way you want and make it as warm our cold as you want, it isn't a reason to not use KDE because it doesn't look good that is only the dev choose, they choose the way a distro looks and mostly i don't like the way it looks and change it the way i want.

Sushi
June 15th, 2006, 02:05 PM
actually, i think you'll find that its the other way around. for theming gnome is lightyears ahead of kde.

Nope. true, installing themes is easier in GNOME than in KDE. But MODIFYING those themes is A LOT easier in KDE. In GNOME I can change the icons and windecs, and that seems to be it. I haven't found a way to change the colors, whereas in KDE it's very easy. And in KDE I can move, remove and add window-buttons at will, and that's something I can't do in GNOME.

I have many times found a theme for GNOME, but I would have liked to tweak the colors. Only to find out that I can't do it.

Sushi
June 15th, 2006, 02:06 PM
Mostly i agree with sushi his post.

I like KDE a little more because for me it works more pleasant and i can tweak a lot of things i want.

I'm not saying that I like KDE "more" :). I love both KDE and GNOME, for different reasons.

asimon
June 15th, 2006, 02:07 PM
actually, i think you'll find that its the other way around. for theming gnome is lightyears ahead of kde.
I disagree. Under KDE I can change much more then under Gnome.



kde-type colour schemes will be here in gtk 2.9 and beyond.
I hear this since 3 or 4 years with different version numbers.



also, gnome allows for mixing and matching of engines - kde doesn't.
Never saw this. How do I do this? Say evolution with Human and gnome-terminal with Mist theme?



the styles(ie engines) in kde can't be taken and modified like they can in gnome
Of course they can! They are usually free software. Everyone can take, modify, and distribute them. And if you look at kde-looks you'll be able to find quickly some styles which are modifications from other styles.



- all those gtk themes are not just modifications of colour, but modifications of style too.
Sorry, but looking at gnome-looks most themes look as if their only difference are their colours. Anyhow in KDE there is no need to have different styles for other colours at all. Widget style and colour theme are sepearated, which is very convenient. Thus you don't find under KDE widget styles which differ in colours alone at all, contrary to Gnome, where this is quite common.

Naglfari
June 15th, 2006, 02:21 PM
I like 'em ALL!!

I have Ubuntu on an HP media center PC (a1223w) thats integrated into my home entertainment center..I have Kubuntu on a Toshiba Laptop, and I installed Xubuntu on an old EMachines desktop that I had tucked away in a closet, and I like playing with all of them.

Hoffmann
June 15th, 2006, 02:24 PM
Ok Guys,

Just to show that I am not a anti-KDE guy, I decided to install it, and I am taking alook on it now.
I have one question:
How can I change the style to Mac-style?

fuscia
June 15th, 2006, 02:29 PM
in gnome, one can change controls, window borders and icon sets. in kde, one can change color, window decorations, widget style and icons. in kde, i can mix and match icons from different sets. if the latter can be done in gnome, i haven't found a way to do so. (as someone who has used openbox the most, i certainly don't mean that as a criticism of gnome.)

different people using different equipment are going to have different requirements of a DE/WM, depending on what they're trying to do. it's unfortunate that discussions of DE/WMs often confuse personal preference with quality of design. (how silly is it that someone should try to tell me how great ratpoison is when i have to look at the keys to type?) what's unfortunate is when people come to linux and don't try all the different managers available to see which one suits them best, or attach undue allegiance to a DE/WM and lose out on a possible change for the better (i've found i like kde better than openbox on my new laptop, where kde was nightmare slow on my old desktop).

ComplexNumber
June 15th, 2006, 02:30 PM
Nope. true, installing themes is easier in GNOME than in KDE. But MODIFYING those themes is A LOT easier in KDE. In GNOME I can change the icons and windecs, and that seems to be it. I haven't found a way to change the colors, whereas in KDE it's very easy. And in KDE I can move, remove and add window-buttons at will, and that's something I can't do in GNOME.

I have many times found a theme for GNOME, but I would have liked to tweak the colors. Only to find out that I can't do it. i think you'll find that i'm right.
to manually change the colours in kde, one alters the kcsrc file.
to manually change the colurs in gnome, one alters the gtkrc file.



And in KDE I can move, remove and add window-buttons at will, and that's something I can't do in GNOME obviously because you haven't looked. see this (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/pre2/25060-2.png)? this is gnome.

now how do you alter the (default look of the) engines in kde? answer: you can't. due to inflexibility of the kde theming model, its one of the reasons why there is so few alternatives in kde theming.

fuscia
June 15th, 2006, 02:31 PM
Ok Guys,

Just to show that I am not a anti-KDE guy, I decided to install it, and I am taking alook on it now.
I have one question:
How can I change the style to Mac-style?


try baghira, using these instructions - http://www.linuxgangster.org/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=15
i'd also recommend the OS-L icons from kde-look.org

GeneralZod
June 15th, 2006, 02:32 PM
Ok Guys,

Just to show that I am not a anti-KDE guy, I decided to install it, and I am taking alook on it now.
I have one question:
How can I change the style to Mac-style?

I didn't have you pegged as an anti-KDE guy :)

Go into the KDE control panel (I always use the original kcontrol, but Kubuntu seems to be settling on System Settings, unfortunately, which is arranged differently) and go to Desktop->Behaviour->General->Menu Bar at Top of Screen->Current Application's Menu Bar (Mac OS style).

Note that this has no effect on GTK apps, so it's kind of pointless unless you are using all-KDE apps :/

Edit:

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde-macosx-menu-bars.png

Edit:

Oops - I thought you meant the menu style. Do what fuscia said ;)

Jucato
June 15th, 2006, 02:34 PM
Uh oh, things are starting to heat up.

I like KDE because I can do whatever I want. Sure it gives me loads of options, but at least I know they're there. My primary purpose in coming over to Linux was to exercise full control over my computer (hmm... that sound familiar). I found KDE to be the exact thing I'm looking for. I do admit that if all the options in KDE were visible and that distributions didn't modify/reduce them, it's one hell of a system.

On the other hand, GNOME is simple, clean and elegant/professional looking. Probably because it's more oriented towards business settings? Anyway, it kinda sticks to me, I mean, the looks, the widget styles, the icons, etc. One look in GNOME and the picture sticks to my mind like glue. And it's been nagging at me to try it out. So that's what I'm doing now. I'm going to force myself into 1 whole week of GNOME. I'll see if I can do the things I can do in KDE and vice-versa.


So far things have been going pretty well. I've already discovered some things that I couldn't do in GNOME. I'm sure there's some way to do that by editing some config files, but nothing that I can see upfront: enabling Num Lock on login, single mouse click, panel widths, just to name a few.

As for themes, I completely admit that themes are an *** in KDE, if you are talking about themes the way GNOME implements them. GNOME is easy: just choose and click. But it ends there, or at least my experience so far ends there. KDE has more configuration options. Might be confusing for newbies, but works for me.

So I'm off to triple-booting with Ubuntu (Kubuntu main, and XP) and I'll see where it takes me.

Then I'll be trying out Xubuntu next. I love that mouse running in the wheel. :D

EDIT: ComplexNumber, in KDE, you don't have to manually edit the kcsrc file. There's a KControl module for doing that. Btw, what's that Clearbox you linked to?

EDIT-EDIT: I've found out how to enable single mouse clicks. I don't know whether they will be system wide since the setting was found under the File Management option in Preferences, which was hidden by default (had to use Alacarte to enable it) or in Nautilus > Edit > Preferences (not a place that I would normally look for mouse settings). I also found out how not to have a panel with 100% width. But I can't set it to an exact percentage. It will only expand when necessary.

Hoffmann
June 15th, 2006, 02:39 PM
I didn't have you pegged as an anti-KDE guy :)

Go into the KDE control panel (I always use the original kcontrol, but Kubuntu seems to be settling on System Settings, unfortunately, which is arranged differently) and go to Desktop->Behaviour->General->Menu Bar at Top of Screen->Current Application's Menu Bar (Mac OS style).

Note that this has no effect on GTK apps, so it's kind of pointless unless you are using all-KDE apps :/

Edit:

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde-macosx-menu-bars.png

Thanks a lot!
But, all I got was an additional (empty) meny bar on the top of my screen.

ComplexNumber
June 15th, 2006, 02:39 PM
So I'm off to triple-booting with Ubuntu (Kubuntu main, and XP) and I'll see where it takes me.
is that your first time with ubuntu?

anaconda
June 15th, 2006, 02:43 PM
Well...
I dislike both Gnome and KDE!
Or more specifically I dislike them like they are fresh from the box. Gnome for having 2 wide panels and KDE for having 1 doublesize panel Both of them take too much space from other aplications..

Luckily you can configure both Gnome and KDE to look like you want... With me I make 1 small panel at the down center.. thats all.

Jucato
June 15th, 2006, 02:48 PM
is that your first time with ubuntu?

Nah, but it will be the first time I stick to it long-term. The longest I've sat down with it was half a day. I would have wanted to stay longer, but my sister was asking me to do/download some stuff which I already started in Kubuntu, and I didn't have the the luxury of time to setup Ubuntu.

While posting, I just finished installing Ubuntu on a separate partition (would have tried to do it on VMWare, but I wanted to give Ubuntu an equal standing when it comes to my system's resources). Now I'm off to hunt down the apps that I need. :D

awakatanka
June 15th, 2006, 02:50 PM
Thanks a lot!
But, all I got was an additional (empty) meny bar on the top of my screen.You need to use a KDE app to have it working like macosx.

Miguel
June 15th, 2006, 05:37 PM
OK guys, I have a question. Let's suppose I had just installed KDE (well, all kubuntu-desktop actually, wich had *less* dependencies than KDE :confused: ).

Last time I did this I had a *huge* KDE panel plus a too cluttered gnome app panel. So I'd like to see GTk+ apps only (or mostly) in Gnome and something similar for Qt in KDE. But if I do this via menu editor or similar I just end up with the same menu in gnome or kde. Of course, I don't want to see a thousand apps or the ones that I used in the other DE. Any way to do this??? Because on XFce things seem to go on their own.

BTW: I use gnome because it feels not on my way. I can assign some shortcuts for the things I do most (well, IceWM or XFce are better in this respect), offers quite a lot of things and still seems clean. The last 30 minutes I spent with KDE I could not find how to change virtual desktops via Ctrl+Alt+Arrow or fire up lovely cute little terminal with Ctrl+Alt+T. But I admit I didn't spend more time with it due to cluttered menus (gnome+kde+whatever).

On a side note, I digress with all those that KDE and Gnome must merge to achieve world domination MUAHAHAHA. First, I don't need world domination, just respect form Windows users. Secondly, if my tastes change from "clean, unobtrusive" to "I want it all" (like Freddie Mercury), what the heck, I can use another DE with totally different philosophy. Because both desktops keep pushing each other to the limit and good ideas and code is finally shared.

Of course, I don't mean that kde is obtrusive and cluttered, just that *I* feel more comfortable using gnome.

Bye!!!

aysiu
June 15th, 2006, 05:44 PM
But if I do this via menu editor or similar I just end up with the same menu in gnome or kde. Of course, I don't want to see a thousand apps or the ones that I used in the other DE. Any way to do this??? I don't understand what you mean by this. If you edit the Gnome menu, it doesn't affect the KDE menu in any way, and vice versa.

Miguel
June 15th, 2006, 05:58 PM
That's what it should do, yes, Aysiu. That's why we have preferences at .gnome2 and at .kde. But last time I tried KDE, when I edited the menu using Alacarte (or menu editor, I don't remember), changes to the KDE menu would also appear in gnome and viceversa.

Example: I don't want to use rhythmbox in KDE, so I uncheck it and proceed to activate the entry for Amarok. Next time I start a gnome session, I will not have a rhythmbox entry, but an Amarok one.

While this isn't too bad for apps, it *is* bad for DE administration entries. Imagine deactivating, let's say, network manager for kppp and not being able to use network manager in gnome. I had to choose between my hair and removing libkde.

BTW: I would check right now, but I'm running a calculation on gnome terminal that I don't want to kill.

aysiu
June 15th, 2006, 06:13 PM
You used Alacarte to edit menus in KDE? Maybe that's what screwed things up?

I don't know. Something weird is going on. That's not normal.

asimon
June 15th, 2006, 06:17 PM
So I'd like to see GTk+ apps only (or mostly) in Gnome and something similar for Qt in KDE.
There is convenient way to do this. The individual .desktop files which define what appears in the menus support things like "OnlyShowIn=Gnome" or "NotShowIn=KDE", but the menu editors don't support this AFAIK. Probably the best would be somewhere a global option "Show only [KDE/GNOME/XFCE] apps".



Of course, I don't want to see a thousand apps or the ones that I used in the other DE.
You say "of course", which is interesting. I for example find it quite natural to list all installed applications in the menus, no matter if they are Gnome, KDE, XFCE or some other applications. Using KDE doesn't mean someone restricts himself to only use KDE apps, the same is true for Gnome. There are probable users who are fanatically enough to not use applications from "the other" environment, but I think those are not the majority, although I could be wrong.

Anyhow, I too find Ubuntu's menus not optimal. Especially if you have both KDE and Gnome installed. I would prefer the SUSE way, which means for example that when I have multiple music players installed I get a "music players" submenu which lists them all. Another thing is the really ugly inconsistency, for example under KDE gnome's terminal appears under Utilities as "Terminal". That name maybe fine if you have only gnome-terminal installed, but I also have konsole, xterm, eterm. Just the name terminal doesn't show me which terminal. And Konsole apperas not under Utilities like gnome-terminal but under system as "Konsole (Terminal Program)".

Just showing only KDE or only Gnome apps may get rid of this ugliness, but I still want to be able to start everything via menu. Thus I think a major revision of the menu layouts would be a nicer default solution. And maybe some easy to apply option to not show applications from other environments for the fanatics. ;-)



The last 30 minutes I spent with KDE I could not find how to change virtual desktops via Ctrl+Alt+Arrow
K-Menu->System Settings->Regional&Accessibility->Keyboard Shortcuts->Global Shortcuts
Don't ask me why the author of system settings put the keyboard shortcuts under Regional&Accessibility. I think it would be better under Personal.



or fire up lovely cute little terminal with Ctrl+Alt+T. But I admit I didn't spend more time with it due to cluttered menus (gnome+kde+whatever).

Right-click on the K-icon from the K-Menu and choose Menu editor. Choose your favourite terminal application and change the shortcut key on the lower right side.

aysiu
June 15th, 2006, 06:21 PM
The programs I use are the programs I use. I'll use the same programs in KDE, Gnome, and XFCE.

If I remove a program from the Gnome menu, I also remove it from KDE. Lately, though, I'm too lazy to remove stuff from menus. I just create keyboard shortcuts for the applications I use frequently, and I don't even use the menus any more...

asimon
June 15th, 2006, 06:27 PM
That's what it should do, yes, Aysiu. That's why we have preferences at .gnome2 and at .kde. But last time I tried KDE, when I edited the menu using Alacarte (or menu editor, I don't remember), changes to the KDE menu would also appear in gnome and viceversa.
That are the pleasures that both KDE and Gnome use the same menu spec from freedesktop.org (before that many people complained about that every environment used it's own menu system). I think the only thing which would be needed to support what you want to do is that Alacart and other menu editors support the feature to show (or not show) apps only in specific environments. The functionality is there in the spec and the .desktop files, it just seems that no menu editor supports these features.

Hoffmann
June 15th, 2006, 07:00 PM
I didn't have you pegged as an anti-KDE guy :)

Go into the KDE control panel (I always use the original kcontrol, but Kubuntu seems to be settling on System Settings, unfortunately, which is arranged differently) and go to Desktop->Behaviour->General->Menu Bar at Top of Screen->Current Application's Menu Bar (Mac OS style).

Note that this has no effect on GTK apps, so it's kind of pointless unless you are using all-KDE apps :/

Edit:

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde-macosx-menu-bars.png

Edit:

Oops - I thought you meant the menu style. Do what fuscia said ;)

I got it.
Thanks!:D

Hoffmann
June 15th, 2006, 07:05 PM
try baghira, using these instructions - http://www.linuxgangster.org/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=15
i'd also recommend the OS-L icons from kde-look.org

Wow, That's is great!
Many thanks.
Well, I decided to migrate to KDE for while. I really liked the Mac-style on Kunbuto.

fuscia
June 15th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Wow, That's is great!
Many thanks.
Well, I decided to migrate to KDE for while. I really liked the Mac-style on Kunbuto.

my pleasure. i like 'kunbuto'. i realize it was just a typo, but that's what i'm calling it from now on. (i think it's the zulu for 'big, huge K'.)

Hoffmann
June 15th, 2006, 08:43 PM
Okay. Just want to make sure you're ditching KDE for the right reasons.

I happen to love both, and I think neither is "ugly." I switch back and forth all the time.
How can I add an icon on KDE desktop? I mean, how to creat a new lounch icon on the scree. I know how to do that on GNOME, but what about on KDE?

One more question: when I used KDE on another distro, I had an interesting option for having zoom effect on the main panel? Is that present also on Kunbutu?

GeneralZod
June 15th, 2006, 08:55 PM
How can I add a icon on KDE desktop? I mean, how to creat a new lounch icon on the scree. I know how to do that on GNOME, but what about on KDE?


Right-click on the desktop, select Create New ->Link To Application and then fill in the details :) The most important one is "Command" under the "Application" tab - if you know the name of the executable, just type that; otherwise, you'll have to Browse to where the executable is stored.

If the app icon is in your K-Menu, then it's all much easier: you can simply drag it from there onto the desktop and select "Link Here".



One more question: when I used KDE on another distro, I had an interesting option for having zoom effect on the main panel? Is that present also on Kunbutu?

Do you mean the effect where an icon would grow when you hover over it? I think that was removed quite a while ago, but may be wrong.

Hoffmann
June 15th, 2006, 09:08 PM
Right-click on the desktop, select Create New ->Link To Application and then fill in the details :) The most important one is "Command" under the "Application" tab - if you know the name of the executable, just type that; otherwise, you'll have to Browse to where the executable is stored.

If the app icon is in your K-Menu, then it's all much easier: you can simply drag it from there onto the desktop and select "Link Here".

Do you mean the effect where an icon would grow when you hover over it? I think that was removed quite a while ago, but may be wrong.

Strange, but when I right-click on the desktop, I see no Creat New option. What I see is: Run Command; Windows; Configure Desktop; Switch User; Lock Sesstion; and Log out.

If the app icon is in my K-Menu, after I drag it from there onto the desktop, I mess up the wallpaper.

The effect I am talking about is exactly that you mentioned. I mean theicon would grow when one hovers over it. That was nice! I would like to have it back on KDE!

Could I hear from you again?

GeneralZod
June 15th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Strange, but when I right-click on the desktop, I see no Creat New option. What I see is: Run Command; Windows; Configure Desktop; Switch User; Lock Sesstion; and Log out.


Hmm...that's odd. Here's what I see (excuse the ugliness of my desktop!)

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde-createnew.png

Does anyone know why Hoffmann's right-click menu would be different?

What exactly happens to your wallpaper when you drag an icon onto it? Do you get an option to Link Here/ Copy Here etc?

raptros-v76
June 15th, 2006, 10:25 PM
i think both gnome and kde are good in their own way, but i prefer kde because it has so many things to fiddle with that i can keep myself amused for hours, and because applications for it are writable in c++, which is my language of choice.

Hoffmann
June 15th, 2006, 11:32 PM
Hmm...that's odd. Here's what I see (excuse the ugliness of my desktop!)

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde-createnew.png

Does anyone know why Hoffmann's right-click menu would be different?

What exactly happens to your wallpaper when you drag an icon onto it? Do you get an option to Link Here/ Copy Here etc?
I started getting some problems. System crash and absence of sound, some times. So, I would like to uninstall Kunbutu. How could I do that? Moreover, I would like to get the original Ubuntu loading/booting page, instead of the Kunbutu.

Hoffmann
June 16th, 2006, 12:44 AM
Hmm...that's odd. Here's what I see (excuse the ugliness of my desktop!)

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde-createnew.png

Does anyone know why Hoffmann's right-click menu would be different?

What exactly happens to your wallpaper when you drag an icon onto it? Do you get an option to Link Here/ Copy Here etc?

Hi GeneralZod,

It seems like I didn't express myself very well on the previous post. I am giving one try on Kunbutu, and I didn't intend to uninstall it now. I am really enjoying the Mac-style stuff. So, let me explain better my situation.
My main problem is regarding listen to music with either xmms or beep-media player. On GNOME, all is fine. On KDE, however, all the time a reboot the sytem, I need to go to the xmms (or beep-media palyer) preference and accept/apply the output plugin. Nothing need to be done, I just need to "accept" the plugin as it is.
What do you think?

ltmon
June 16th, 2006, 12:56 AM
The effect I am talking about is exactly that you mentioned. I mean theicon would grow when one hovers over it. That was nice! I would like to have it back on KDE!

It was removed and replaced with the "bloody huge tooltips (tm)". You would have to go back to KDE 3.3 (?) to get this effect back.

L.

Hoffmann
June 16th, 2006, 01:04 AM
It was removed and replaced with the "bloody huge tooltips (tm)". You would have to go back to KDE 3.3 (?) to get this effect back.

L.
Well, I prefer to continue with the KDE 3.5.2. That feature was excelent. Don't you think?
Do you have any ideia about myprevious post about xmms and beep-media palyers?

poofyhairguy
June 16th, 2006, 01:06 AM
Well, I prefer to continue with the KDE 3.5.2. That feature was excelent. Don't you think?


I was quite the hack though if I remember. If you really miss it:

http://www.xiaprojects.com/www/prodotti/kxdocker/main.php

lazyd2
June 16th, 2006, 01:08 AM
Hmm...that's odd. Here's what I see (excuse the ugliness of my desktop!)

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde-createnew.png

Does anyone know why Hoffmann's right-click menu would be different?
Go to System Settings-->Desktop-->Behavior. Once there tick the "Show icons on desktop" & "Allow programms in desktop window". That should do it...

raptros-v76
June 16th, 2006, 01:12 AM
well, if your going to stick around with kubuntu, i would in fact recommend amaroK, which has the advantage of looking nice in both KDE and GNOME.

Jucato
June 16th, 2006, 02:06 AM
You mean is some distant past, KDE had a panel effect that sort of imitates Mac's dock, without the use of 3rd party apps? I'm sort of glad I wasn't around to see that, or I'd certainly be pissed of now that they took it away.

(Am I the only one who actually likes these new big balloon tooltips?)

Anyway, my GNOME-testing experience has been cut short by an irritating kernel upgrade problem. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1143413). Back to KDE for me.

ltmon
June 16th, 2006, 02:18 AM
You mean is some distant past, KDE had a panel effect that sort of imitates Mac's dock, without the use of 3rd party apps? I'm sort of glad I wasn't around to see that, or I'd certainly be pissed of now that they took it away.

(Am I the only one who actually likes these new big balloon tooltips?)


Nah... it was a pretty lousy looking effect. It was non-animated and just an on-off kind of thing. I don't think it compares to the Mac effect in any way.

I like the big baloon tips :) They're especially good when you have (e.g) multiple Konqueror windows minimized and you want to quickly find which is which in the application dock.

L.

Hoffmann
June 16th, 2006, 02:43 AM
Go to System Settings-->Desktop-->Behavior. Once there tick the "Show icons on desktop" & "Allow programms in desktop window". That should do it...

It works.
Thanks a lot!

Miguel
June 16th, 2006, 09:50 AM
Thanks guys,

Writing from KDE right now. It was a pleasure to see all your suggestions. Let's give this a try. Oh! first thing, this konqueror is putting all my english words in red. Maybe because I'm spanish???

About the apps, I do realize there are points for all sides, such as if a browser is your favourite, use it under gnome, kde, xfce or whatever. And then, there are other apps, especially DE managing tools, that you might only use in KDE or Gnome. So yes, the freedesktop implementation is probably the best. One setting to rule them all... leaving room for exceptions.

See you!!!

awakatanka
June 16th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Thanks guys,

Writing from KDE right now. It was a pleasure to see all your suggestions. Let's give this a try. Oh! first thing, this konqueror is putting all my english words in red. Maybe because I'm spanish???



Its the spelling control, probably you use the spanish localization so it use the spanish dictonary. You can install the english part also if i'm right. Right click on the reply box gives you a menu where you can select spelling control to control all words.

fuscia
June 16th, 2006, 01:14 PM
maybe i'm off base here, but to me, nothing quite represents the versatility of kde like this guy...

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2271/kpot8rm.th.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kpot8rm.jpg)

in a way, this kids' game serves as a metaphor for kcontrol. with kcontrol, changing the face of your GUI is as easy as putting a different nose on a potato.

raptros-v76
June 16th, 2006, 01:29 PM
maybe i'm off base here, but to me, nothing quite represents the versatility of kde like this guy...

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2271/kpot8rm.th.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kpot8rm.jpg)

in a way, this kids' game serves as a metaphor for kcontrol. with kcontrol, changing the face of your GUI is as easy as putting a different nose on a potato.

that's the best simile I've heard in a while

Hoffmann
June 17th, 2006, 06:10 AM
Well, I gave one more try on KDE.
I got several problems. At least for my type of machine - a Intel core due - KDE doesn't work so well as GNOME does. Consequently, I am back to GNOME, in definitive. With all respect I have for KDE people, GNOME rocks! [At least for me].

awakatanka
June 17th, 2006, 10:08 AM
Well, I gave one more try on KDE.
I got several problems. At least for my type of machine - a Intel core due - KDE doesn't work so well as GNOME does. Consequently, I am back to GNOME, in definitive. With all respect I have for KDE people, GNOME rocks! [At least for me].
Can you make some point what was not working? Realy wanna know what kind of points didn't work for you our others.

Sushi
June 17th, 2006, 01:58 PM
Well, I gave one more try on KDE.
I got several problems. At least for my type of machine - a Intel core due - KDE doesn't work so well as GNOME does. Consequently, I am back to GNOME, in definitive. With all respect I have for KDE people, GNOME rocks! [At least for me].

These things happen. Some time ago when I used KDE, I did try GNOME out every once in a while, And usually I found out that things didn't work in GNOME whereas they did work in KDE.

Better luck next time :).

Hoffmann
June 17th, 2006, 03:56 PM
Can you make some point what was not working? Realy wanna know what kind of points didn't work for you our others.

Ok, I will tell you:
(1) Stability problems ---> Somethimes I could listen to stream radios with XMMS or Beep Media players, some times not. Moreover, some times the system crash.
(2) Amazingly, when I was listen to music with the readphones, just the right side worked. That doesn't happen with the speakers.
(3) Slower than Gnome (even for a power machine like mine - a Intel Core Due with 1GB RAM).
(4) KDE "eats" lots of memory. It is possible to listen to the fan working very hard several times.

I am not an IT expert, but it seems like KDE is too big/heavy and, probably, that is the reason for those problems. It would be a bit cleaner, I guess.

Those problems never happen to me when I am using GNOME. I became so upset, that I decided to re-install Ubuntu, just to not see the Kunbutu Usplash anymore. Please notice, I DIDN'T BECOME UPSET WITH KUNBUTU, I became upset with KDE, once again! I have used KDE in other linux distroes and I also didn't like it that much.
Once again, I am not saying the KDE is a mess. It simple doesn't work for me as I would like. NO ofense from my side.

weasel fierce
June 17th, 2006, 06:45 PM
RIght now, Im having a lot of fun playing around with KDE, and I have a setup now, that I think looks really nice.

Im not removing Gnome though. Its easy, nice and smooth. Besides, linux is all about choice

awakatanka
June 17th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Ok, I will tell you:
(1) Stability problems ---> Somethimes I could listen to stream radios with XMMS or Beep Media players, some times not. Moreover, some times the system crash.
(2) Amazingly, when I was listen to music with the readphones, just the right side worked. That doesn't happen with the speakers.
(3) Slower than Gnome (even for a power machine like mine - a Intel Core Due with 1GB RAM).
(4) KDE "eats" lots of memory. It is possible to listen to the fan working very hard several times.

I am not an IT expert, but it seems like KDE is too big/heavy and, probably, that is the reason for those problems. It would be a bit cleaner, I guess.

Those problems never happen to me when I am using GNOME. I became so upset, that I decided to re-install Ubuntu, just to not see the Kunbutu Usplash anymore. Please notice, I DIDN'T BECOME UPSET WITH KUNBUTU, I became upset with KDE, once again! I have used KDE in other linux distroes and I also didn't like it that much.
Once again, I am not saying the KDE is a mess. It simple doesn't work for me as I would like. NO ofense from my side.
the reason i asked is because after the latest updates my Laptop and Desktop has some stablity problems to. Desktop doesn't have a clean dapper live install yet so that could be the problem. But the laptop did have a clean install but isn't stable anymore after latest update's and it isn't stable at all at a 686 kernel, but the mepis beta 5 is rock stable atm on laptop.

And ubuntu isn't a choose for me because i just keep missing tweaking things i can do easly in kde.

Kubuntu is the cleanest kde there is but after testing a few distro's i think it needs more love, it was stable for me with the latest 2 beta's but it changed again to unstable.

Hoffmann
June 17th, 2006, 07:57 PM
the reason i asked is because after the latest updates my Laptop and Desktop has some stablity problems to. Desktop doesn't have a clean dapper live install yet so that could be the problem. But the laptop did have a clean install but isn't stable anymore after latest update's and it isn't stable at all at a 686 kernel, but the mepis beta 5 is rock stable atm on laptop.

And ubuntu isn't a choose for me because i just keep missing tweaking things i can do easly in kde.

Kubuntu is the cleanest kde there is but after testing a few distro's i think it needs more love, it was stable for me with the latest 2 beta's but it changed again to unstable.
Well, defenitely, I will use just GNOME.
GNOME works like a charm for me !;)

Biltong (Dee)
June 17th, 2006, 08:10 PM
I have just installed Kubuntu/KDE on my computer.
Wow!
To each his (or her :-) ) own, but this is exactly what I have been looking for.
Oh, boy, who needs sleep tonight?

fuscia
June 17th, 2006, 08:28 PM
I have just installed Kubuntu/KDE on my computer.
Wow!
To each his (or her :-) ) own, but this is exactly what I have been looking for.
Oh, boy, who needs sleep tonight?

beware the new convert (me too). i'll be up. start a thread.

raptros-v76
June 17th, 2006, 08:45 PM
hey, when does kde 4 come out? because ive heard that that will not be plagued with the same problems of the current kde

Hoffmann
June 17th, 2006, 09:01 PM
I have just installed Kubuntu/KDE on my computer.
Wow!
To each his (or her :-) ) own, but this is exactly what I have been looking for.
Oh, boy, who needs sleep tonight?
Good for you.
Good luck!

Hoffmann
June 17th, 2006, 09:03 PM
beware the new convert (me too). i'll be up. start a thread.
fuscia,
Which one do you use/prefer? GNOME or KDE? I am just curious.

GeneralZod
June 17th, 2006, 09:07 PM
hey, when does kde 4 come out? because ive heard that that will not be plagued with the same problems of the current kde

I think there's a developers preview coming later this year (probably October-ish), and a "proper" release early next year. I suspect that KDE 4.0.x will have a great many bugs and performance issues as it will be a largely untested and unoptimised release, so I'd probably wait until KDE 4.1.

KDE 4 is obviously intended to eliminate many of the current problems with KDE, but at the moment is largely vapourware, so there's no way of telling how successful it will be in solving them.

I'm cautiously optimistic, though ;)

pulver
June 17th, 2006, 09:10 PM
Kde feels bloated imho, it can look somewhat cool, and somewhat clean, but still bloated. I'm also waiting for kde4, though it will probably be another disappointment. It's the little things, small annoying graphical details. If you're not into details, then yes kde may look like the coolest thing on earth.

Biltong (Dee)
June 17th, 2006, 09:11 PM
Good for you.
Good luck!

I like it. I like it a lot.

The problem is... It is sooooo sloow. It's almost as if I have another application running, but as far as I can tell I don't!

So, I am back on Gnome,(tail between legs) and will stay here awhile whilst I bring in the experts to thoroughly investigate the problem. :(

(DO NOT SNIGGER HOFFMAN!)

fuscia
June 17th, 2006, 09:16 PM
fuscia,
Which one do you use/prefer? GNOME or KDE? I am just curious.

kde, by far. my choice is between kde and openbox, not gnome. i do go through gnome phases, every once in a while.

Castar
June 17th, 2006, 09:27 PM
Please keep in mind that I mean no offense and please correct me where I'm wrong... :D

I have tried many times to use Gnome instead of KDE, with both of the distros I've mainly used (SuSE and K/Ubuntu) and I have always returned to KDE (even though the Dapper Gnome really really shaked my beliefs :D )

Everyone should use the desktop they feel more comfortable and productive with. The reasons that I feel that KDE is superior to Gnome are:

1. It way more customisable than Gnome, which feels a bit restrictive to me. And on its looks, even though Gnome has a "cleaner" look and especially in Ubuntu a more unified look, the customisation capabilities of KDE allow me to do almost anything with the desktop, even make it look like OSX! See my Dapper Gnome-like desktop attachment.

2. KDE is far more superior technologically to Gnome, since it uses C++. C is also great of course, but for such large-scale projects C++ is more effective and more productive because code written in C++ is far easier to maintain and extend than that with C. And this really shows on the uniform look and layout of the KDE apps compared to that of Gnome apps.

3. The KDE applications are now far more advanced than their Gnome counterparts. This wasn't the case with KDE 3.0 for example. For me, Gnome apps used to be the "professional" apps compared to the "edgy" KDE apps. Evolution used to be a great organisation tool. But because of what I said just before on the technical superiority of KDE, Kontact was improved so quickly that I don't see any point using Evolution over Kontact, except for the better Exchange compatibility which I'm sure it will be prompty implemented in Kontact. Some KDE apps just do not compare to the Gnome ones. K3b and Amarok come immediately in mind. Especially Amarok is a demonstration of the KDE capabilities in constantly improving software and giving new cool features to it. Of course, there are applications that are better in Gnome than in KDE but what I want to point out is that this won't be for long.

4. KDE runs Gnome apps very nicely. I wish I could say the same on the way Gnome runs KDE apps... :(

5. Even though it shouldn't bother the common user, I hate the fact that Gnome has a registry. Windows have too and I always thought it was an "easy" but questionable solution coming out of lazy programming. I'm not an expert on OS programming ofcourse and this is the weakest of my points :D

In any case, I don't think that Gnome can keep up with KDE's innovation. Remember, KDE 4 is going to come soon and it really feels it's going to be amazing.

Of course, all of the above are my personal thoughts and I must say that I like Gnome too, just not so much as KDE. In the KDE/Gnome "war", I feel Gnome has won in the corporate desktop and this is proven by the support it enjoys from Redhat, Novell and Ubuntu. I understand the reasons behind this, it's the simplicity and apparent extra productivity out of this simplicity, but I still feel KDE will become the clear winner in the "state-of-the-art desktop war". Soon. Real Soon.

ComplexNumber
June 17th, 2006, 10:30 PM
In any case, I don't think that Gnome can keep up with KDE's innovation. please bear in mind that virtually all these 'innovations' appear in gnome before they do in kde. examples: beagle seach, svg support, cairo (where is arthur yet?), gstreamer, dbus,........
in fact, there is virtually nothing that appears in kde first. can you think of any?

guine
June 17th, 2006, 10:30 PM
I use KDE and I'd say that the biggest reason why is because thats what I was taught to use linux in. Ive tried gnome but I just thought kde looked a little prettier, knew where things were better in kde so I could do stuff easier there, and I didnt like how the file browser window size would change back to its default size whenever you changed folders.(theres probably a way to change this but Ive been happy with kde so I didnt care to figure it out to much)

Castar
June 17th, 2006, 10:37 PM
please bear in mind that virtually all these 'innovations' appear in gnome before they do in kde. examples: beagle seach, svg support, cairo (where is arthur yet?), gstreamer, dbus,........
in fact, there is virtually nothing that appears in kde first. can you think of any?

Actually I'm not in position to answer that, sorry. What I meant by innovation, and I erroneously expressed as such, was innovation in applications with new features, not innovations in the major linux frame. In that respect you are right probably :D. What I mean is that features can be implemented quicker in KDE than in Gnome.

pulver
June 17th, 2006, 10:38 PM
So your desktop icons and konqueror folder icons look shiny ála osx. I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the desktop doesn't look nearly as good as osx, when it comes to details. Look I'm not saying it looks bad, actually I'm not saying anything. Gnome sucks in many areas and kde sucks in many areas, they are both very very far from near perfect and need a lot of work. As far as kde4 goes, don't buy into the hype. On the other hand if you like what you have now you'll probably wont be disappointed. The rant about one being more technologically superior than the other, and the crap about innovation, LMAO. Keep your silly little holy war going.

Castar
June 17th, 2006, 10:43 PM
So your desktop icons and konqueror folder icons look shiny ála osx. I hate to break it to you, but the rest of the desktop doesn't look nearly as good as osx, when it comes to details. Look I'm not saying it looks bad, actually I'm not saying anything. Gnome sucks in many areas and kde sucks in many areas, they are both very very far from near perfect and need a lot of work. As far as kde4 goes, don't buy into the hype. On the other hand if you like what you have now you'll probably wont be disappointed. The rant about one being more technologically superior than the other, and the crap about innovation, LMAO. Keep your silly little holy war going.

Actually, I was going for the Gnome Dapper look, not OSX. I just said that even OSX is possible. And I have no intention for holy wars :D I like them both.

pulver
June 17th, 2006, 10:49 PM
That's what they say, that's what they been saying for years. osx themes, vista themes gnome/kde whatever ..they all look like cheap knockoffs. :cool:

Castar
June 17th, 2006, 10:54 PM
That's what they say, that's what they been saying for years. osx themes, vista themes gnome/kde whatever ..they all look like cheap knockoffs. :cool:

I see your point ;) . What I mean, is that you can customise KDE a lot. Gnome has a distinctive look; I immitate it as well as you saw ;) .

Sushi
June 17th, 2006, 11:22 PM
(3) Slower than Gnome (even for a power machine like mine - a Intel Core Due with 1GB RAM).

I have always found the two to be more or less comparable speedwise.


(4) KDE "eats" lots of memory. It is possible to listen to the fan working very hard several times.

Um, what does memory-consumption have to do with fans? And the absolute maximum amount of RAM KDE has consumed for me is about 350megs. And I achieved that number by running LOTS of apps at the same time. Of course you can drive the mem-consumption up fast by running non-KDE apps, since those need to load third-party libraries. But it's the same thing with GNOME as well. If you use apps meant for your DE, your mem-consumption will be reasonable, both in KDE and GNOME.

I have done comparisons regarding mem-consumption in KDE and GNOME. And the two are more or less equal. After a fresh boot, my system shows about 150 megs of consumed RAM in both KDE and GNOME. After prolonged use, the mem-consumption goes up similarly in both.


I am not an IT expert, but it seems like KDE is too big/heavy and, probably, that is the reason for those problems. It would be a bit cleaner, I guess.

GNOME isn't really any "lighter" than KDE is. If you want a truly lightweight DE, XFCE is your choice. Compared to XFCE, both KDE and GNOME are "heavy".


Those problems never happen to me when I am using GNOME. I became so upset, that I decided to re-install Ubuntu, just to not see the Kunbutu Usplash anymore. Please notice, I DIDN'T BECOME UPSET WITH KUNBUTU, I became upset with KDE, once again! I have used KDE in other linux distroes and I also didn't like it that much.

the problems you experiences aren't KDE-problems as such. I have used KDE for years, and I haven't seen them,


Once again, I am not saying the KDE is a mess.

Well, you listed loads of problems you had with KDE, you mentioned that you don't blame Kubuntu for those problems, but that you blame KDE. So what ARE you saying then?

Sushi
June 17th, 2006, 11:33 PM
please bear in mind that virtually all these 'innovations' appear in gnome before they do in kde. examples: beagle seach

IIRC, Kat was available roughy at the same time as Beagle was, maybe before.


svg support

KDE had SVG-support long ago


cairo (where is arthur yet?)

In Qt4


gstreamer

Predated by aRts by YEARS


dbus

Predated by DCOP by YEARS.


in fact, there is virtually nothing that appears in kde first. can you think of any?

DCOP, Kparts, aRts, true network transparency? And the funny thing is: not only did those pieces of tech appear in KDE first, they are actually widely used. For example: GNOME does in theory support something similar to Kparts. The only problem is that NO-ONE uses it. Does a feature exist if no-one uses it?

You basically listed a bunch of technologies that have had an equicalent in KDE for LONG time. Maybe you could say that (for example) "Hah, GNOME innovates again with gstreamer! GNOME has gstreamer, whereas KDE does not!" and you would be right in a way: GNOME has gstreamer, while KDE does not. But you would be forgetting that KDE has used something similar to gstreamer since KDE 2.0! aRts was introduced 6 years ago! As were KIO-slaves and DCOP! With DBUS, GNOME is now where KDE was six years ago! Maybe same thing with KIO-slaves (does GNOME have anything similar to those even today?)

I find your posts to be factually quite incorrect. Not only this post, but quite many of your GNOME/KDE-related posts have been just plain wrong. Please: Check your facts.

Hoffmann
June 17th, 2006, 11:36 PM
I have always found the two to be more or less comparable speedwise.



Um, what does memory-consumption have to do with fans? And the absolute maximum amount of RAM KDE has consumed for me is about 350megs. And I achieved that number by running LOTS of apps at the same time. Of course you can drive the mem-consumption up fast by running non-KDE apps, since those need to load third-party libraries. But it's the same thing with GNOME as well. If you use apps meant for your DE, your mem-consumption will be reasonable, both in KDE and GNOME.

I have done comparisons regarding mem-consumption in KDE and GNOME. And the two are more or less equal. After a fresh boot, my system shows about 150 megs of consumed RAM in both KDE and GNOME. After prolonged use, the mem-consumption goes up similarly in both.



GNOME isn't really any "lighter" than KDE is. If you want a truly lightweight DE, XFCE is your choice. Compared to XFCE, both KDE and GNOME are "heavy".



the problems you experiences aren't KDE-problems as such. I have used KDE for years, and I haven't seen them,



Well, you listed loads of problems you had with KDE, you mentioned that you don't blame Kubuntu for those problems, but that you blame KDE. So what ARE you saying then?

NO COMMENTS...
That's all!
OK. Stay with KDE and I will stay with GNOME. Neither I am going to convice you that GNOME is better than KDE, nor you will "proof" me the contrary.
No war; that is just a matter of taste.
That's it!

Sushi
June 17th, 2006, 11:47 PM
NO COMMENTS...
That's all!
OK. Stay with KDE and I will stay with GNOME. Neither I am going to convice you that GNOME is better than KDE, nor you will "proof" me the contrary.
No war; that is just a matter of taste.
That's it!

Um, this might come as a surprise, but I'm actually using GNOME as we speak. I have used it for a quite some time now, and I find the experience quite nice indeed.

Jucato
June 17th, 2006, 11:52 PM
Innovations... hmm... let me see if I can dig up some:

1. Switch desktops/workspace using mousewheel? (kwin)
2. Configurable colors without editing config files manually? (kcmshell)
3. Tabbed file manager? (konqueror)
4. desktop widgets? (Karmaba/Superkaramba) <--- not entirely sure of the timeline vs. gdesklets, though.
5. Expose-like window swticher? (Kompose)
6. HTML engine? (KHTML, used by Safari, too)
7. Office suite? (KOffice)
8. Graphics program with CMYK support? (Krita)
9. Application launcher ala OS X? (Katapult)
10. Configurable toolbars

That makes 10 things that KDE either had first, or only KDE has. But that's not yet mentioning what Sushi said: DCOP before DBUS, KParts before Bonobo, kioslaves before... I don't know what GNOME calls theirs.

awakatanka
June 17th, 2006, 11:59 PM
You better stop arguing with complexnumber because he will post another 10 post trying to prove he is right and then admit he was wrong (almost never) our just doesn't post anymore. Probably that is why he call himself a complexnumber.

People just need to install both and compare it and use whatever they feel is best for them.

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:01 AM
Kat was available roughy at the same time as Beagle was, maybe before. no it wasn't.



KDE had SVG-support long ago gnome had it first.

This article mostly focuses on SVG's progress from a GNOME point of view, both because GNOME has progressed the furthest

Nautilus 1.0 was released with basic/preliminary SVG support on March 15, 2001.

KDE project began their SVG efforts with KSVG being imported into CVS in August 2001.
click (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6460)



Predated by aRts by YEARS i don't know why you're mentioning about arts. we're talking about gstreamer here...which appeared in gnome first. besides, arts is rubbish.


Predated by DCOP by YEARS. i'm talking about dbus...not dcop.




You basically listed a bunch of technologies that have had an equicalent in KDE for LONG time. not true. i think you'll find that i'm right.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:01 AM
Innovations... hmm... let me see if I can dig up some:

window-specific settings (user can configure certain windows/app to open in certain workspace, certain location, and automatically minimized). This is a godsend if you want to use multiple workspaces.

Universal sidebar that can contain playlists, filesystem, bookmarks etc. etc.

Desktop-wide mouse-gestures. Opera was the thing that introduced gestures. But they are browser-specific. KDE supports mouse-gestures EVERYWHERE.

system-wide spell-checking. Well, to be honest, I'm not sure that is this a distro-issue or desktop-issue, but.... Back when I used KDE (In Gentoo and IIRC in Kubuntu as well), everything was spell-checked. Including text-boxes like the one I'm using right now. GNOME does not do that. Evolution does spell-check, but I'm not sure about the rest. Gedit at least does not.

Note: I'm NOT saying that GNOME sucks! I use GNOME, and I use it because I like it! But I also like KDE, and I get annoyed when some people spread pure crap about KDE:

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:06 AM
no it wasn't.

Are you sure about that?


i don't know why you're mentioning about arts. we're talking about gstreamer here

Um, because both aRts and gstreamer are sound-servers that basically do the same thing? How exactly is gstreamer an "innovation" if KDE had something similar six years ago?


which appeared in gnome first.

And KDE had something similar YEARS AGO!


besides, arts is rubbish.

Irrelevant.


i'm talking about dbus...not dcop.

DCOP and DBUS do the same thing basically. Hell, DBUS was modeled after DCOP!


not true. i think you'll find that i'm right.

No, I find you to be wrong. You just can't accept the fact that KDE is actually quite innovative. Even more so that GNOME. Like I said, you are basically saying stuff like "GNONE innovates! GNOME has Metacity whereas KDE does not! KDE sucks!".

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:10 AM
KParts before Bonobo bonobo was around before kparts. if you remember, kde toyed with corba at a time when gnome was using it (and bonobo), but then later developed kparts.



You just can't accept the fact that KDE is actually quite innovative. Even more so that GNOME. Like I said, you are basically saying stuff like "GNONE innovates! GNOME has Metacity whereas KDE does not! KDE sucks!". you're reading things that aren't there. i never said anything of the sort

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:12 AM
bonobo was around before kparts.

Maybe, maybe not. But does a feature exist if no-one uses it? kparts is WIDELY used in KDE, whereas no-one uses bonobo in GNOME.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:18 AM
you're reading things that aren't there. i never said anything of the sort

Oh yes you do! You list bunch of GNOME-related technologies, and then claim that GNOME innovates and KDE does not, since GNOME has those technologies whereas KDE does not. And what you choose to ignore is the fact that KDE has been using similar but different technologies LONG before GNOME used theirs! Yes, GNOME might have DBUS (is it the official IPC of GNOME?), whereas KDE will have it in KDE4. But fact remains that KDE has similar technology that they have been using for the last six years! Yes, GNOME has gstreamer, wheread KDE does not. But KDE has been using a similar piece of technology for the last six years! You are not looking at the technology, you are looking at some specific implementations of the technology, and then you determine GNOME to be the "winner". but the specific implementation does not matter, what matters is which one had the technology first.

This isn't the first time you BS about KDE. Give it a rest already. I still remember when you simply could not accept the fact that KDE could be made to look Mac OS-like, whereas GNOME could not....

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:18 AM
Maybe, maybe not. But does a feature exist if no-one uses it? kparts is WIDELY used in KDE, whereas no-one uses bonobo in GNOME. bonobo is used extensively in applications such as evolution etc. just ebcause a feature isn't used throughtout, doesn't make it non-existant. a feature exists wherther its used or not.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:19 AM
bonobo is used extensively in applications such as evolution etc. just ebcause a feature isn't used throughtout, doesn't make it non-existant.

I sure as hell don't see it. I see one monolithic app that tries to do everyting. And we are talking about ONE app here.


a feature exists wherther its used or not.

To the users it does not.

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:22 AM
Sushi
all those technologies that i mentioned previously were used in gnome before kde. and thats a fact. end of story.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Sushi
all those technologies that i mentioned previously were used in gnome before kde. and thats a fact. end of story.

Are you now going to stick your fingers in your ears and shout "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!" ;)?

fuscia
June 18th, 2006, 12:25 AM
complex number, as i recall (from another thread), you were a kde user for some time, is that correct? if so, how were you fooled into using it for so long? in other words, what had you liked about it at one time? (even my ex-wife can answer that question.)

Hoffmann
June 18th, 2006, 12:26 AM
You better stop arguing with complexnumber because he will post another 10 post trying to prove he is right and then admit he was wrong (almost never) our just doesn't post anymore. Probably that is why he call himself a complexnumber.

People just need to install both and compare it and use whatever they feel is best for them.
Well, I will get out this thread. We will go nowhere.

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:31 AM
complex number, as i recall (from another thread), you were a kde user for some time, is that correct? if so, how were you fooled into using it for so long? in other words, what had you liked about it at one time? (even my ex-wife can answer that question.)
yes, thats correct. i liked it more because:
a) i wanted a complete DE
b) kde was better than gnome at that time.
c) kde was much more like windows (which is what i was most used to at that time)

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:33 AM
You better stop arguing with complexnumber because he will post another 10 post trying to prove he is right and then admit he was wrong (almost never) our just doesn't post anymore. Probably that is why he call himself a complexnumber.

Tell me about it. I once spent HOURS trying to tell him that KDE can be made to look like Mac OS (with the applications menubar at the top of the screen), whereas GNOME doesn't have that feature. He refused to accept that fact, he simply couldn't understand what people were talking about when they talk about "universal menubar". Only after people started posting screenshots he finally started to "get it". Even then his admission of defeat left quite a bit to be desired....

Judge for yourself.... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=160925)

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:34 AM
Even then his admission of defeat left quite a bit to be desired.... please tell me in what way exactly? you mean when i said this:

Sushi
ok, i apologise about the menu bar :smile:


btw just because someone was wrong once, doesn't mean that they are always wrong. thats poor logic.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:39 AM
please tell me in what way exactly? i always admit when i'm wrong.

It took me (others posted also) about dozen posts to explain what we were talking about. I even had to make screenshots t illustrate the point. During that time (when you were 105% wrong) you kept telling me how I "didn't get it", and how I have "demonstrated that I don't know how to use GNOME". After all those screenshots and explanations, what did I receive? "ok, i apologise about the menu bar".

Oh, be still my beating heart! That is an apology worthy of Chamberlain!

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:42 AM
what did I receive? "ok, i apologise about the menu bar". what exactly did you expect?

and when was the last time you admitted to be wrong?

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:46 AM
what exactly did you expect?

"Ok, I admit it: I was completely wrong about this issue. And I apologise for my rude posts to you and others in this thread". That would have been order of magnitude better.

You never really admitted that you were wrong, you just "apologized for the menubar". you never really apologized for getting on everyones nerves over something that you were wrong about on that thread.

And that thread illustrates quite nicely that you have VERY hard time accepting that KDE actually does something better than GNOME. And you are repeating it on this thread again.

When was the last time I admitted to be wrong? Don't remember any dates, propably in the last time I was wrong about something ;).

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:48 AM
you haven't answered the second question.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 12:52 AM
you haven't answered the second question.

I did. Maybe I would answer them faster if you stopped rertoactively adding stuff to your posts.

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 12:57 AM
I did. Maybe I would answer them faster if you stopped rertoactively adding stuff to your posts.
good excuse. you could start with admitting that you're wrong about svg support, dbus, gstreamer, etc not being on gnome first.

ShanghaiTeej
June 18th, 2006, 01:00 AM
you haven't answered the second question.

ComplexNumber, I value your opinions about Gnome, but some of your arguments are just way too biased. I think a lot of people agree with that. I think it's safe to say that both desktops of have innovated in huge ways, sometimes copying ideas off of the other. I mean, for god's sake, these 2 DEs are free, open source and complete desktop solutions. Isn't that innovative enough for anyone? People choose what they want and that's that, no matter what you believe people should install on their computers. I mean, this type of die hard support is rediculous. The only reason to be as diehard as ComplexNumber is if one of the DEs cured cancer or stupidity. For god's sake, there is no good and evil with KDE and Gnome.

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 01:04 AM
ShanghaiTeej
all i'm saying is that my original statement is true. thats all :)

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 01:10 AM
good excuse.

And true. I answered your post, only to notice that you had added stuff to your post while I was typing my answer.


you could start with admitting that you're wrong about svg support, dbus, gstreamer, etc not being on gnome first.

Yes, DBUS and gstreamer were on GNOME first. So? Does that somehow prove that GNOME is "innovative" when they are adding functionality to the desktop that has existed for last SIX YEARS in KDE? DCOP and aRts were in KDE years before GNOME had DBUS and gstreamer!

Again: by your logic I could say that KDE is "innovative" because KDE has Qt, whereas GNOME does not. If I said that, you would propably say "But GNOME does not need Qt since it has GTK+!". And you would be absolutely right. And likewise: GNOME might have gstramer, but KDE has had aRts. And they had aRst back when gstreamer was just a twinkle in GNOME's eyes. GNOME might have DBUS, but KDE has DCOP, and they have had it for a LONG time.

It's becoming quite obvious to me that, like with the MacOS-menubar, you simply do not "get it". Unfortulantely I can't draw you a picture this time to educate you, like I could do in the Menubar-discussion.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 01:14 AM
ShanghaiTeej
all i'm saying is that my original statement is true. thats all :)

Your original statement is misleading. You listed specific implementations and claimed that they were "innovations". And you simply do not "get it" that specific implementations are NOT THE POINT!

KDE is innovative because it has Konqueror whereas GNOME does not
KDE is innovative because it has Kwin whereas GNOME does not
KDE is innovative becase it has DCOP whereas GNOME does not
KDE is innovative because it has Kparts whereas GNOME does not
KDE is innovative because it hs Kicker whereas GNOME does not
KDE is innovative becase it has Kontact, whereas GNOME does not

Notice anything wrong with those claims?

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 01:18 AM
ok, so you don't want to admit that you're wrong. you keep on saying things like "but kde had arts first" when we not talking about arts. rather than admitting that you're wrong, you keep on skirting around it.
beagle was started before kat (which had its first release as 0.1.3 using qt3). kde first had svg support in august 2001 whereas gnome was using it before then, etc.
the fact is, that you're saying that i was wrong about a search tool, svg support, etc...when i'm right.
i give up.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 01:30 AM
ok, so you don't want to admit that you're wrong. you keep on saying things like "but kde had arts first" when we not talking about arts.

we are talking about INNOVATIONS, and NOT about specific implementations of those innovations (like aRts and gstreamer)! You are claiming that GNOME is innovative because it has gstreamer whereas KDE does not. gstreamer is a specific implementation, and specific implementations are NOT what we are talking about here, INNOVATIONS are!

An example: Kwin (KDE's windowmanager) is not an "innovation". The whole concept of "windowmanager" WAS an innovation back when it was invented. sound-servers WERE an innovation. gstreamer (or aRts, since I assume that there were sound-servers before aRts) is NOT an innovation, therefore you can't claim that GNOME is "innovative" just because it has gstreamer.

Are you FINALLY understanding what I'm saying here? Your examples of "innovations" in GNOME are false since they are not innovations, they are merely implementations of past innovations (hell, DBUS is STRONGLY influenced by DCOP!). And such implementations have existed in KDE long before the examples you mentioned appeared in GNOME!

Comprende?


rather than admitting that you're wrong, you keep on skirting around it.

I have stated quite clearly that GNOME does have gstreamer whereas KDE does not. But that is besides the point.

Do you want my honest opinions? You are simply incapable of having real rational discussion since you don't even understand what we are talking about here! You keep on repeating that "GNOME innovates since they have gstreamer whereas KDE does not". By same logic I could claim that KDE is the innovative one, because it has Kwin whereas GNOME does not.


i give up.

Thank god! I have been tyring to drive some sense in to you for far too long as it is! But all my efforts seem to be fruitless, sicne you seem to be utterly incapable of understanding even the mere basics of this discussion.

Harsh words, but SOMEONE has to say them!

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 01:32 AM
nice try. instead of admitting that you're wrong, you choose to try to belittle me instead. much talk....no substance.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 01:40 AM
nice try. you know that you're wrong. instead of admitting it, you belittle me instead. much talk....no substance.

Nopy, you are just incapable of understanding the basics of this discussion. I TRIED to educate you, but it seems to haev been in vain.

Answer me this: is KDE innovative whereas GNOME is not, because KDE has Kwin, whereas GNOME does not? Simple question, should be easy enough to answer.

ComplexNumber
June 18th, 2006, 02:42 AM
Sushi
all the way through this thread you've not just got your facts completely wrong (eg saying that kat was started before beagle, kde had svg support before gnome, etc) and skirted around the issue (eg saying that kde had arts before gstreamer when i was talking about gstreamer being on gnome first, saying that kde had dcop before dbus when i was talking about dbus being on gnome first (its not as if kde invented dcop), etc), belittling me in an attempt to make my opinion seem less, but you've also completely missed the point. i never mentioned anything about kde not being innovative (if you think so, quote me where i have said that?). i was responding to the following statement made by castar:

I don't think that Gnome can keep up with KDE's innovation the very fact that all those techologies that i've stated were started on gnome first with kde taking on exactly the same technology at a later date proves castar's statement to be wrong. so you chirp in claiming that those technologies were not started on gnome before kde (and getting your facts wrong) and claiming that i said that kde is not innovative. it was never about saying kde is not innovative or anything like that, just that castars statement was wrong.
and all the way through this thread, you've failed to appreciate that.

qalimas
June 18th, 2006, 03:26 AM
I prefer KDE. Both are great, they both do the job. Some people like KDE, some like GNOME, some like neither. I'm a KDE guy, mainly because I find it much easier to customize, and much more powerful than ANY other GUI I've ever used (Windows, Mac OS X, GNOME, Xfce, *box, Window Maker)... KDE is far from a Windows clone, it's very unique in it's own way, and I love it ^^

My desktop can be seen here: http://cox-internet.com/keitht if you are interested, I have it customized to my liking ^^ Something I have never been able to do in GNOME.

aysiu
June 18th, 2006, 03:33 AM
Some people like KDE, some like GNOME, some like neither. Some like both--I'm one of those.

Naglfari
June 18th, 2006, 03:35 AM
Some like both--I'm one of those.

Same here...why put limits on yourself. I use both, and the one I happen to use at any given time is just a "mood thing" :D

aysiu
June 18th, 2006, 03:42 AM
I tend to use one for a few months. Then I switch.

The best part is that it always feels like "coming home," no matter which one I'm switching back to.

Jucato
June 18th, 2006, 03:45 AM
ComplexNumber: you have not totally proven yourself right. You only focused on refuting Sushi's statements, while disregarding others. So maybe Bonobo came before KPart (maybe), or Beagle before Kat, or that GNOME had svg support before KDE. But you have not discounted the other facts, specially the ones I listed. And even if you were able to disprove some, that still leaves other areas where KDE did innovate first before GNOME. That's enough room to have what lawyers would call "reasonable doubt" as to the truth of your claims.

GStreamer vs aRts: So GNOME implemented GStreamer first. So what? Not everybody wants/uses GStreamer. Others would prefer to use Xine or other options. The point is GStreamer is just a multimedia framework, just as aRts is. It's not like GStreamer is {i]THE[/i] multimedia framework to drool over. So let GNOME use it as its multimedia framework. KDE already had it's own multimedia framework before that. Saying that "GNOME is more innovative because it has GStreamer" is like saying that "GNOME is more innovative because it has Nautilus".

KParts vs. Bonobo: Bonobo was included in GNOME 1.4, which was released 2001. KParts was included in KDE 1.9 Beta and 2.0, released 2000.

fuscia
June 18th, 2006, 03:55 AM
yes, thats correct. i liked it more because:
a) i wanted a complete DE
b) kde was better than gnome at that time.
c) kde was much more like windows (which is what i was most used to at that time)

that just sounds that you prefer gnome now. i'm a bit confused by your stance as there are times when you sound like a betrayed ex-wife when talking about kde while, at other times, it seems like you just prefer gnome now. can you clear up your stance for me?

i like all of it. for me, the novelty of having so many DE/wms to choose from has not worn off. in fact, it was that consideration that made me choose a system76 over a macbook when getting a new laptop.

Jucato
June 18th, 2006, 04:19 AM
that just sounds that you prefer gnome now. i'm a bit confused by your stance as there are times when you sound like a betrayed ex-wife when talking about kde while, at other times, it seems like you just prefer gnome now. can you clear up your stance for me?

i like all of it. for me, the novelty of having so many DE/wms to choose from has not worn off. in fact, it was that consideration that made me choose a system76 over a macbook when getting a new laptop.

Simple: He likes GNOME, and despises almost anything KDE. If you think "despise" is too strong a word, just check his other posts regarding the matter. I wouldn't bother doing it myself.

In some matters, I respect and see the wisdom in his opinions. But whenever something KDE comes up, it seems that he goes berserk and is not content with simply saying "I don't like it" until it reaches "it sux". It seems (at least to me) that he has very little regard on the opinions of others, as long as he is able to say his piece.

Ok, this thread is dangerously becoming something it should not be.

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 08:26 AM
Sushi
all the way through this thread you've not just got your facts completely wrong (eg saying that kat was started before beagle

I actually didn't claim that. At first I thought that they had been started at more or less same time, and I asked about the matter.


kde had svg support before gnome

I said that KDE has had SVG support for quite some time, that's it.


and skirted around the issue (eg saying that kde had arts before gstreamer when i was talking about gstreamer being on gnome first, saying that kde had dcop before dbus when i was talking about dbus being on gnome first

These two arguments demonstrate clearly that you do not understand what we are talking about here. You talk of two specifict things that appeared in GNOME first, and then declare GNOME "innovative". By that same logic I could say that KDE is innovative whereas GNOME is not because KDE has Kwin, whereas GNOME does not.

Yes I CAN refute your argument by stating the fact that KDE had aRts and DCOP long ago, so GOME is not really that innovative here. Why? BECAUSE DCOP AND ARTS DO THE SAME THING AS DBUS AND GSTREAMER DOES! The fact that GNOME happened to get gstreamer and DBUS before KDE DOES NOT MATTER since KDE has had the same functionality those two offer since the year 2000!

Like I have said, if I followed your "logic" here, I could say that "KDE is innovative because it has Kwin, whereas GNOME does not! GNOME sucks!". And if you then then mentioned that "Um, GNOME has Metacity, so what on Earth are you talking about?". I could then say "But we are talking about Kwin and not Metacity! KDE has Kwin, GNOME does not! GNOME sucks!". THAT is your logic!


(its not as if kde invented dcop)

Actually, DCOP WAS invented and created by KDE-folks, whereas DBUS was invented and created by freedesktop.org. So where is the GNOME-innovation here?


belittling me in an attempt to make my opinion seem less

I have been more than patient here. I have been trying to educate you, but in vain.


but you've also completely missed the point.

I don't thinkthat you really have any "point".


the very fact that all those techologies that i've stated were started on gnome first with kde taking on exactly the same technology at a later date proves castar's statement to be wrong.

KDE released similar set of technologies SIX YEARS AGO!


so you chirp in claiming that those technologies were not started on gnome before kde (and getting your facts wrong)

What I have TRIED to tell you (but in vain it seems) is that KDE released similar set of technologies SIX YEARS AGO! You keep on telling about the "innovation" in GNOME and you use gstreamer and DBUS as an examples. But the fact is that KDE has had those things for YEARS! No, KDE didn't have those specific implementations but they had something similar.


and claiming that i said that kde is not innovative. it was never about saying kde is not innovative or anything like that, just that castars statement was wrong.

Castar was saying that "GNOME can't keep up with KDE's innovation". While that is debatable, it is usually considered to be a fact that technologically KDE is superior of the two (while GNOME presents itself better than KDE). You then listed "innovations" that are NOT innovations, since similar set of technologies has been available for years.


and all the way through this thread, you've failed to appreciate that.

Appreciate what? your misguided idea as to what "innovation" means?

aysiu
June 18th, 2006, 08:28 AM
For the typical end-user, does it really matter which desktop environment is "more innovative"?

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 08:33 AM
For the typical end-user, does it really matter which desktop environment is "more innovative"?

Well, if the user wants to use latest and greatest technologies, it is :).

GeneralZod
June 18th, 2006, 08:33 AM
For the typical end-user, does it really matter which desktop environment is "more innovative"?

Not really, especially as most of the innovations flow from Apple ;)

Oh, and although my label as part of Kubuntu team probably instantly disqualifies my opinion as biased, I agree with pretty much everything Sushi here has said. The only thing that appears to be wrong is that, as far as I can tell (it's surprisingly hard to find records), Beagle was started at least a few months before Kat.

Edit:

Oh, and I don't know the timeline of KParts vs Bonobo - I'm not sure if Fenyx's figures are correct.

Edit2:

From here (http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/co-tmline/), it looks like work was started on Bonobo in 1999, but was not included in GNOME until GNOME 1.4 in 2001, although (from another source) Bonobo was at 1.0.8 (and thus, presumably, pretty mature) by Feb 2002.

KDE 2.0 was released in 2000 and contained the KParts technology.

aysiu
June 18th, 2006, 08:36 AM
But was Beagle the first desktop search utility ever? I don't think it really matters.

Let's assume desktop environment X is less innovative than desktop environment Y. If I prefer using X, why do I care which is more or less innovative?

It's like saying New York City is more innovative than Rock Springs, Wyoming. Well, if people prefer to live in Rock Springs, what do they care if New York is "more innovative"?

Sushi
June 18th, 2006, 08:40 AM
Not really, especially as most of the innovations flow from Apple ;)

Oh, and although my label as part of Kubuntu team probably instantly disqualifies my opinion as biased, I agree with pretty much everything Sushi here has said. The only thing that appears to be wrong is that, as far as I can tell (it's surprisingly hard to find records), Beagle was started at least a few months before Kat.

I wasn't originally sure about which was started first (and I did ask on this thread). But I went looking. Yes, it IS very hard to find real data about the birth of the two projects. But it appears that first traces of Beagle appeared about one year before Kat.

awakatanka
June 18th, 2006, 10:14 AM
From here (http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/webservices/library/co-tmline/), it looks like work was started on Bonobo in 1999, but was not included in GNOME until GNOME 1.4 in 2001, although (from another source) Bonobo was at 1.0.8 (and thus, presumably, pretty mature) by Feb 2002.

KDE 2.0 was released in 2000 and contained the KParts technology.We can also for sure say that there was alpha/beta work on Kpart before it was impletent.

But like aysiu say what does it matter who is more innovative, someone uses what he feels working the best for him.

innovations are sometimes borrowed from eachother our from apple/microsoft. It doesn't make one worse then a other, just use what is best for you.

asimon
June 18th, 2006, 10:33 AM
GStreamer vs aRts: So GNOME implemented GStreamer first.
Gstreamer is no gnome project, it's neither part of the gnome platform nor the gnome desktop, nor are there plans to change this. It was started completely independend of gnome and still is. Gnome just merely uses gstreamer here and there, just as KDE's phonon or some KDE apps.

Gstreamer is here often called "audio server". As a media framework it's actually more then this.



KParts vs. Bonobo: Bonobo was included in GNOME 1.4, which was released 2001. KParts was included in KDE 1.9 Beta and 2.0, released 2000.
Maybe it should be sayed that KDE was the first to have a _successfull_ working component system. kparts is a success and heavily used everywhere in KDE, bonobo failed to deliver it's promise. Defining and implementing real components suck with bonobo, it's overly complicated and has too much overhead, therefore it's was never widely used for components but for other things. The plan for Gnome3 is to replace it with something different. But is bonobo an innovation? It's very similar to a framework from a big well known company were it's orginal creator worked formerly.

Regarding dbus: It's similarity to dcop is no wonder, KDE developers were involved in it's design and it's a further development of the successfull dcop. Yes, KDE and Gnome developers actually cooperate on many fronts, but some fanatics in both sides' user groups keep spreading fud and fight some nonsense desktop war.

Beagle isn't a Gnome project either, although gnome was the first who had a frontend for it.

BTW, kparts appeared in KDE's cvs the first time in Nov 4th 1999. Development started a little bit before that.

GeneralZod
June 18th, 2006, 10:50 AM
I think the only real conclusion that can be drawn here is that a simple statement that $DESKTOP does not innovate, or that $FEATURE or $TECHNOLOGY appeared first in $DESKTOP is simply doomed to failure - questions of ownership of a project; conception vs initial implementation vs successful, widely-adopted implementation; originality vs copying ideas from technologies that existed before $DESKTOP was even thought of and a hundred and one other factors muddy the waters so completely that it's simply not worth arguing over. Angels on the head of a pin :)

fuscia
June 18th, 2006, 12:53 PM
consider the 'A may have done it first, but B does it better' card played and let's move on.

Jucato
June 18th, 2006, 01:24 PM
I think the only real conclusion that can be drawn here is that a simple statement that $DESKTOP does not innovate, or that $FEATURE or $TECHNOLOGY appeared first in $DESKTOP is simply doomed to failure - questions of ownership of a project; conception vs initial implementation vs successful, widely-adopted implementation; originality vs copying ideas from technologies that existed before $DESKTOP was even thought of and a hundred and one other factors muddy the waters so completely that it's simply not worth arguing over. Angels on the head of a pin :)

Of course you are correct.

But then again, we weren't the ones who started "that" discussion. :p

Miguel
June 18th, 2006, 09:10 PM
KDE sucks. Why? It's blue. Period.

Now, seriously. I've been trying KDE and finding a couple of nice things. It however seems slower to me than Gnome. I've said "seems", and the difference is not a dealbreaker. Anyway, I wouldn't bet on it.

I must say that I showed KDE to my girlfriend last friday (I am a physicist and use linux!!! And I have a girlfriend!!! Mankind has hope!!!!). She drooled over a couple of things: amaroK (who doesn't), the virtual folders with audio CDs, file previews* (especially the image ones)... I am surely leaving something. And I haven't shown her Xgl. MUAHAHAHA. Please note that she uses Win XP... with firefox and gaim (she has bad influences)

* I have now checked and konqueror doesn't seem to preview audio files. This is a cool Nautilus feature.

Conclusions? I am enjoying my stay in KDE. However, I would still feel more at home in Gnome. Xfce also feels nice, though. The only thing I feel bad about is that "1500 packages insgtalled"

GeneralZod
June 18th, 2006, 09:34 PM
* I have now checked and konqueror doesn't seem to preview audio files. This is a cool Nautilus feature.


It actually does but IIRC, illogically, you have to be in ThumbnailView mode for it to happen - ListView doesn't work. If you are in ThumbnailView mode and you hover over a sound file, it should begin to play. If it doesn't work and the kdemultimedia packages aren't installed (especially kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins), then try installing them. If that doesn't work, then file a bug report ;)

Jucato
June 18th, 2006, 11:38 PM
It actually does but IIRC, illogically, you have to be in ThumbnailView mode for it to happen - ListView doesn't work. If you are in ThumbnailView mode and you hover over a sound file, it should begin to play. If it doesn't work and the kdemultimedia packages aren't installed (especially kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins), then try installing them. If that doesn't work, then file a bug report ;)

In Dapper, you no longer need to install the kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins to enable previews for audio (and video), just the libxine-extracodecs (reference (https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RestrictedFormats#head-f06eb8f6a8cbb1ed38dd019b7dde9f0f7bb26160))

IMHO having that audio/video preview in icon view mode is not that illogical because it's only the icon view/thumbnail view mode that gives (or should give) a "preview" image (a.k.a. thumbnail) of a file, so necessarily, it's the only mode that should also have an audio/video preview. Now, if the list info view were able to show thumbnails of documents/images, etc., then I would have to agree that it should also have audio/video previews.

Miguel
June 19th, 2006, 12:36 AM
After watching a dramatic US Open final hole, I can confirm Fenyx was right.

No need to install any packages apart from kubuntu-desktop. Sound preview works (for ogg at least)... as long as you have activated it. I don't know why I supposed it would be activated by default. Anyway.

I will keep you informed. First thing I will do tomorrow is change the theme to... brown, of course. Jokes aside, I hope to learn something new and more pros and cons of both big bad DE's. Oh! and next to test drive will be Xfce 4.4 beta... with xubuntu settings.

Have a nice week!!

Castar
June 19th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Whoa you guys are fast!!! It seems that I've created a war I didn't intend.



Castar was saying that "GNOME can't keep up with KDE's innovation". While that is debatable, it is usually considered to be a fact that technologically KDE is superior of the two (while GNOME presents itself better than KDE). You then listed "innovations" that are NOT innovations, since similar set of technologies has been available for years.
?

Actually, this is exactly what I meant. I am sorry if I expressed it incorrectly. I just feel that if the KDE guys want to implement something, it will happen faster than the Gnome guys because of the framework KDE is based on (Qt).

Again, I'm not saying that Gnome sux, I like it very much (for its looks ;) )

fuscia
June 19th, 2006, 12:44 PM
KDE sucks. Why? It's blue. Period.

](*,) it can be any color, dude. it can even be fuchsia. (unbelievable...)

Miguel
June 20th, 2006, 03:37 PM
Hi again,

Fuscia,

While I suppose that head banging against the wall is ironic (because you said it could even be fucsia), seeing some negative influence in some posts, I will say I just wrote that as a parody of all those "reviews" noticing how awful was ubuntu because it's default theme was brown. Nothing more.

Back on KDE, I'll say that Kwin rocks. Well, it might have more settings than I'll manage to understand, but it doesn't rock because of that. It rocks because, while still configurable, it is fast. It doesn't leave trails. It doesn't behave nasty.

Curious points: konqueror seems (again, all subjective) to start faster when clicking on a folder I have at ~/Desktop than when clicking the task bar icon (which starts as a browser).

More: winecfg hangs when clicking on the audio tab. It doesn't happen in gnome (at least a month ago it didn't). It's not that I desperately need wine, but it would be nice to run Baldur's Gate 2 on linux.

The rant must go on: some settings are not self-explanatory. I mean, I would not automatically understand them by reading. This wouldn't be so bad if the *full* KDE help was installed together with kubuntu-desktop

Who rants to live forever: adept. It sucks. Now I'm serious. I just use synaptic. While adept does look somewhat like aptitude, I would guess that Qt is able to improve some ncurses program.

While I could put more queen songs with the word rant, it wouldn't be fair not mentioning that I am actually enjoying KDE. More than I thought. Just that if I don't express my impressions, I'm not helping KDE at all.

I'd like to end this post mentioning that Thom Holwerda, after mentioning Gnome and OS X in his "Why * sucks" in osnews.com, mentioned KDE this weekend. His complaints? Some coherency issues, adept, klaptop and that kde apps seem to live more on their own than as fully integrated apps.

Link here (http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14927)

mjm115
June 20th, 2006, 03:50 PM
Sorry to join the party late, but some interesting points have been brought up. But, in the end, I must conclude that KDE is better. It simply is. And if that's not enough, then since we use Linux, we can agree with Linus Torvalds who says "use KDE" (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html).

KDE looks better, has more functionality, and is much easier to adapt to than Gnome.

fuscia
June 20th, 2006, 03:51 PM
miguel, i was just being silly.

GeneralZod
June 20th, 2006, 04:23 PM
Sorry to join the party late, but some interesting points have been brought up. But, in the end, I must conclude that KDE is better. It simply is. And if that's not enough, then since we use Linux, we can agree with Linus Torvalds who says "use KDE" (http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html).

KDE looks better, has more functionality, and is much easier to adapt to than Gnome.

Perhaps it's better for you, but statements like "KDE is better. It simply is" and "KDE looks better, has more functionality, and is much easier to adapt to" are debatable at best, and flamebait at worst. It's fine to have an opinion, but please don't portray your opinions as facts - it only leads for flamewars :)

Miguel
June 20th, 2006, 04:43 PM
As a sidenote to a couple of posts, I'd like to raise a question

I feel somewhat of a desktopaddict. I mean, now I'm trying KDE just for the sake of it. As soon as KDE 4 is available, I'll also try it. You can count on me experiencing Xfce 4.4. And Gnome won't be free of me anytime soon. You see, out of curiosity, I end up installing and trying lots and lots of packages. And all the blame relies on apt. Does anybody suffer from similar behaviour?

BTW, A humour screenshot: fucsia KDE. I know it's small, but it isn't worth more waste of bandwith than 55 kB.

fuscia
June 20th, 2006, 04:55 PM
that's a lovely tint you've got there, miguel.

mjm115
June 20th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Perhaps it's better for you, but statements like "KDE is better. It simply is" and "KDE looks better, has more functionality, and is much easier to adapt to" are debatable at best, and flamebait at worst. It's fine to have an opinion, but please don't portray your opinions as facts - it only leads for flamewars :)


Yes, you are correct. I do, however, believe that Gnome is easier for develepment, whereas KDE has been known for ease of use. That can be debated, but it has ben my experience with both desktops. I prefer KDE.

maagimies
June 20th, 2006, 05:18 PM
Yes, you are correct. I do, however, believe that Gnome is easier for develepment, whereas KDE has been known for ease of use. That can be debated, but it has ben my experience with both desktops. I prefer KDE.
Heh, I thought it's the another way around, that Gnome is easier to use as an Desktop Enviroment, and KDE is the programmers DE :D

william_nbg
July 29th, 2006, 08:49 AM
I use Gnome and sometimes Fluxbox (old Blackbox user). I tried KDE, but just couldn't get into the feel of it. Though, I friend of mine who uses Suse has a pretty slick KDE setup. And I'm very happy with the Gnome upgrades on 2.14 - much speedier on my box than 2.12.:D

sdebo
August 15th, 2006, 08:27 AM
Gnome is cleaner and clearer by default. KDE is more cluttered by default. Both can be greatly customised though.
I prefer Gnome because it runs smoother and faster on my PC.

Terracotta
August 15th, 2006, 08:47 AM
Gnome is cleaner and clearer by default. KDE is more cluttered by default. Both can be greatly customised though.
I prefer Gnome because it runs smoother and faster on my PC.

I find the kde in Kubuntu less bloated than GNOME in Ubuntu. I made my choice based on the programs that I used, and those happened to be almost all QT-applications (Opera, Konqueror, Amarok, K3B, Kopete, Kontact, Kaffeine), in the end it was pointless for me to run a gtk-based DE when all the programs where qt-based.

amgeex
August 16th, 2006, 04:33 AM
The thing is, KDE is 'fat' compared to Gnome. And I like to see a foot better than a big blue K!

chaosgeisterchen
August 16th, 2006, 08:55 AM
Oh my oh my, I really did it and read through all of this thread. The flamewar amid of it was not really necessary, wasn't it?

Well, so to say I am a KDE user from start.. started with SuSE and becamce comfortable with KDEs endless customizability, 1000 options for everything to overdraw it ;)

Well.. I tried out GNOME some times noew and tried to get to work with it. But the thing is, that I miss such a lot of things everywhere I look *sigh*. Charms like Yakuake and Konqueror aren't available natively under GNOME. Audio players have really improved and can cope with Amarok now, but I still like it better in some way, well, it's perfectly integreated in the KDE Desktop Environment.

Well, I come to the point which made the decision finally. I love KDE interoperability, KDE is some Desktop Environment working together like some gears would do (look at the icon representing KDE ;)), so it is a desktop environment which really earns this name. Kontact is awesome and I also like Kopete, although it is quite buggy and became even buggier with some lately releases.

But, in fact and despite all the drawbacks with KDE (it often has some 500 megs of RAM consumption :( ) it is lovely to use. The looks cannot cope with the great GNOME looks of today as GTK+2 has mastered Qt concerning this and XGL is surely running a lot better under GNOME than under KDE. Well, 2 things which make me envy many GNOME users. But while starting to try remodelling screenshots I see I die from missing my KDE functionality. I do not feel like home here. nothing against GNOME, but it's still 'foreign computing' from my view.

I will stick to KDE and hope that KWin and Compiz once work together like a charm. Like everything else in KDE does perfectly well :)

So far, thanks for all the Devs providing us these options of free computing.

~cg

asimon
August 16th, 2006, 10:13 AM
Wow, KDE got a much higher value in this poll then I would have expected on this forum. This is great. Looking at all the arguments here (including the flames) shows clearly why we need more then one desktop environment to make the *buntu users happy. And it's one of the best goals, to make as much users happy as possible.

chaosgeisterchen
August 16th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Well, even if there would not be any Kubuntu Project some KDE fanatics would have invented a sub-usergroup in the Ubuntu universe to create an implementation of the KDE desktop based on the ubuntu system.

KDE is widely used and very popular. But it's shrinking in it's importance since all 3 main distributions (I refer to distrowatch to judge this matter) have now GNOME as their default desktop. KDE was once more important as it was default for SuSE and Mandrake, which were very important. OpenSuSE is still important but Mandriva is decreasing, SuSE also migrated to GNOME. So we have very poor outlooks for KDE on the mainstream. Which will not stop them from inventing great things. Just like KDE4 ;)

I hope it will keep its promises.

asimon
August 16th, 2006, 02:18 PM
Well, even if there would not be any Kubuntu Project some KDE fanatics would have invented a sub-usergroup in the Ubuntu universe to create an implementation of the KDE desktop based on the ubuntu system.
That was how Kubuntu started. But you don't have to be a 'fanatic' to create KDE packages. Do you think Ubuntu and Canonical are run by lunatic Gnome fanatics?



KDE is widely used and very popular. But it's shrinking in it's importance since all 3 main distributions (I refer to distrowatch to judge this matter) have now GNOME as their default desktop. KDE was once more important as it was default for SuSE and Mandrake, which were very important. OpenSuSE is still important but Mandriva is decreasing, SuSE also migrated to GNOME. So we have very poor outlooks for KDE on the mainstream. Which will not stop them from inventing great things. Just like KDE4 ;)

I hope it will keep its promises.

The default choice of some distros is absolutely insignificant, and we all know that there are a lot of Ubuntu, Novel Linux, Red Hat, etc. users who run KDE (there are even big enterprise customers among those) and not the default. What matters is what people use and what they are happy with. If you look at the many "what desktop environment do you prefer" polls, there is no decrease of KDE's popularity, at least I don't see it. And what's absolutely great and fantastic (as with all free software) is that KDE doesn't need the support of big industry names (with their dollars come their influence) or distribution leaders to be popular or be loved by it's users. It fares well and will fare well in the next couple of years, I don't see that change. At least I know nobody who changed their prefered desktop because some random distro changed the default. That would be in the same league as people who switch to Fedora Core because they heard that Linus used at one point of time Fedora (maybe he still does, he is not known to announce when he changes distros).

And even if Gnome users sometime surpasses KDE users in their numbers, who cares? They are quite different (which is good, we don't want two desktops to be the same) and by all what we see will stay so for the forseeable future. And with their differences they are attractive to different people. Everything is fine. :-)

Jucato
August 16th, 2006, 02:25 PM
It's hard to judge how much a DE is used just based on the popularity of a distro, specially on DistroWatch. For one, it only shows really how much that particular distro has been clicked in DistroWatch. It does not say anything about how many people actually use it. Nor does it say anything about which DE those users use in that distro.

Some of the "more popular" distros:
- Debian - I haven't installed this, so I wouldn't really now. But I presumed that with 14 CD's, you get a choice of which DE to install.
- Fedora Core 5 - last time I checked, you have the option to install either DE. So I'm not really sure how GNOME becomes the "default"
- SUSE - while SUSE (SLED/SLES) itself might move to GNOME, OpenSUSE seems to be still KDE. Still, I could say that more KDE innovations seem to be coming from this camp than from any other.
- Ubuntu - it's obviously GNOME. But then should we count Kubuntu as a separate distro in DistroWatch, or as a derivative distro under the Ubuntu project?
- KNOPPIX - it's still one of the best rescue Live CD's around. And it's still using KDE
- Linspire, Xandros, and MEPIS - they may not be the "main" guys, but they're certainly making headlines lately.

My point? Not that the major distros default to GNOME or KDE, but that it's not an accurate measure of how "important" KDE is, specially for users, who can simply install a different DE than the one provided by default. Truth of the matter is, we can't really be certain how important or popular a DE or a distro is, specially with a worldwide user base. Statistics can only do so much.

Btw, I hope you didn't use "fanatics" in a pejorative way.

ComplexNumber
August 16th, 2006, 02:28 PM
is that KDE doesn't need the support of big industry namesyet KDE is utterly dependent upon the support of the fickle shareholders of a floated company.

fuscia
August 16th, 2006, 04:10 PM
what blue?

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/382/whatblueik5.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whatblueik5.jpg)

chaosgeisterchen
August 16th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Oh my.. with fanatics I simply meant people keen on improving the DE and caring about the future of KDE in every Distri :)

Hope I could point it out in a better way. In the end, KDE will surely survive. We'll see what KDE 4 will bring.

@fuscia: Try out another color for window title.. the white is not very appropiate ;)

and yeah, what annoying blue?

GuitarHero
August 16th, 2006, 07:45 PM
Linus' comments on GNOME made me loose a lot of respect for him.