Why does Ubuntu/Canonical support censorship?

[Revolutionary101]

Today I was excited for the release of Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin and I am currently updating my system. During my wait I decided to look on the Ubuntu website to see all the new features that come with Ubuntu 12.04. To my surprise I found this:

http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/features/web-browsing

Now you may be wondering why I was so surprised by this but look closer and you will see next to the Firefox and Chrome logos there is a new logo. This is the logo of Baidu which is a search engine corporation based in Beijing, China. For a long time Baidu has been accused of violating human rights by censoring its search results. Here is just a sample:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703482104576332073063272688.html

Now I am curious as to why Ubuntu and by extension Canonical support this company on Ubuntu when for as long as I can remember Ubuntu was about openness when it came to software, although why can't this be applied to information as well? This may just be the ramblings of a college student upgrading his computer but I was interested in what people on this forum think about this. I understand that this may run close to the forbidden "no talking about politics" policy on the forums here so try and keep the conversation as close to Baidu and Ubuntu as possible. Thanks!

[Uncle Spellbinder]

Hmmmmmm. Very interesting. And dissapointing. Sad to see the Baidu logo on that page. Or ANY page associated with Ubuntu. It's been well documented (worldwide) that Baidu is a committer of censorship on a regular basis.

[Revolutionary101]

I agree. Hopefully, at one point they will take down the Baidu logo and replace it with something less controversial. I believe that the Baidu logo replaced the Opera logo on the page, I don't see why they had to make the change.

[Uncle Spellbinder]

...I believe that the Baidu logo replaced the Opera logo on the page, I don't see why they had to make the change.

Indeed. Especially to Baidu. They could have used any number of logos. A picture of a cat for all I care. But Baidu???? I'd like to hear an explanation from Ubuntu and/or Canonical.

[Dry Lips]

Obviously Canonical is trying to enter the Chinese marked. But I'm hoping they won't swallow any camels in the process.

According to wikipedia:



According to the China Digital Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Digital_Times), Baidu has a long history of being the most proactive and restrictive online censor in the search arena. Documents leaked in April 2009 from an employee in Baidu's internal monitoring and censorship department show a long list of blocked websites and censored topics on Baidu search.[43] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu#cite_note-42) In May 2011, pro-democracy activists sued Baidu for violating the U.S. constitution by the censorship it conducts in accord with the demand of the Chinese government.[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu#cite_note-43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu#Censorship

[mvblair]

As a new and not-so techno savvy user of Ubuntu, I would like to express my concern with this as well. I realize that by placing Baidu's logo, they are not necessarily coming out in favor of Baidu's censorship policies, but I still don't like to see Canonical/Ubuntu trying to associate themselves with censorship. I like the idea of software that is open for everyone around the world to use, which is why I like Ubuntu. I will be disappointed if they start being supported or support Baidu.
Obviously Canonical is trying to enter the Chinese marked. Yes.

[SemiExpert]

What a boring political thread! Ubuntu/Canaonical is not supporting censorship, they're just displaying the logo of a search engine, in this case, the largest search engine in China. So what? Baidu is a big company, they have their own internet browser, and if Baidu, or any other company wishes to support Canonical or the Linux community, I'm all for it. Leave the politics out of it.

[KiwiNZ]

Is it mandatory to use?

Not including would be removing freedom of choice.

[mips]

My opinion is that you people don't have a leg to stand on. It's a private company providing a service and they can do what suites them. They don't owe you anything!

[juancarlospaco]

Freedom of Choice

its named...

[Dry Lips]

My opinion is that you people don't have a leg to stand on. It's a private company providing a service and they can do what suites them. They don't owe you anything!

You forget that unlike Microsoft, Canonical offers a product that the community has participated in creating. I've never received any money from Canonical for my contributions to Ubuntu.

Yes, Canonical is a private company, but it doesn't mean it is wise to always do whatever suits them.

[Mikeb85]

Baidu is the most popular search engine in China, and the 'Google of China'. If people want to use it, let them. If they don't want to use it, they won't... But there's nothing wrong with Canonical offering it as a choice.

Furthermore, Westerners shouldn't be criticising China from their armchairs without knowing the real situation, if anyone thinks our picture of what China is like isn't distorted by our own press, they should get a reality check.

[Mikeb85]

You forget that unlike Microsoft, Canonical offers a product that the community has participated in creating. I've never received any money from Canonical for my contributions to Ubuntu.

Yes, Canonical is a private company, but it doesn't mean it is wise to always do whatever suits them.

There are plenty of beta testers and others who have contributed to Microsoft products. Furthermore, Canonical has contributed alot through their own private efforts, providing a much better experience than any other Linux distro to date, and the 'community' wasn't always supportive.

[Dry Lips]

There are plenty of beta testers and others who have contributed to Microsoft products. Furthermore, Canonical has contributed alot through their own private efforts, providing a much better experience than any other Linux distro to date, and the 'community' wasn't always supportive.

Well, what I'm referring to goes beyond beta testing. I'm sure that Microsoft doesn't leave translation of its products to unpaid volunteers, just to mention one thing.

Nobody contends that Canonical has invested a lot of money in Ubuntu, but Canonical is simply a beast of a different order than Microsoft/Apple, even if they're trying to make a profit.

I'm not necessarily saying Canonical are doing a bad thing by wanting to enter the Chinese marked, but who can honestly claim that there aren't any pitfalls to avoid in this respect? Remember that even Google found it right to withdraw from China after a time...

The question is: How far are Canonical willing to go in order to capture Chinese market shares?

[evilsoup]

I don't see why being a private company should put Canonical beyond criticism. Especially since they capitalise on the 'freedom'/'ubuntu philosophy' stuff, which really doesn't seem compatible with internet censorship.

Putting a logo on their website isn't going to stop me using Ubuntu, mind.

[Version Dependency]

I'm afraid I'm another one of those that will file this away under "Not An Issue."

[odiseo77]

IMO this is not different than any distro (or browser) offering Google as a default search engine or promoting the use of Facebook. Both, Google and Facebook sell their users' info to third parties, and specially Facebook is said to be deeply tied with the US intelligence agencies.

[Dry Lips]

I would assume that it is the browser which is referred to here, not the search engine in itself.

[mips]

I'm not necessarily saying Canonical are doing a bad thing by wanting to enter the Chinese marked, but who can honestly claim that there aren't any pitfalls to avoid in this respect? Remember that even Google found it right to withdraw from China after a time...

The question is: How far are Canonical willing to go in order to capture Chinese market shares?

At the end of the day it's their decision, whether you or I agree or disagree with it is irrelevant when you are chasing $$$. It might work out for them or it could drag them down seeing how active the OSS community is. It's just not worth losing any sleep over.

[cariboo]

With all this discussion, has anyone actually done something about it, like create a bug report?

[corrytonapple]

Why do we display a Chinese logo for a Chinese search engine on the US/UK/English Website then?
They can have their own little website.

[CharlesA]

Both, Google and Facebook sell their users' info to third parties, and specially Facebook is said to be deeply tied with the US intelligence agencies.

Tinfoil hat time? :)

Don't like the privacy policy, don't use it, I say.

[Dry Lips]

I must confess I got a bit confused now... I assumed they were referring to the browser, but apparently the baidu browser is only available for windows... http://liulanqi.baidu.com/

:confused:

[Dry Lips]

Baidu is listed as one of Canonical's customers/partners:

http://www.canonical.com/news/ubuntu-10.04-for-software-vendors

[odiseo77]

Tinfoil hat time? :)

Don't like the privacy policy, don't use it, I say.

Yes, I've been considering doing that from some time now (unfortunately, in order to close gmail I must wait a little bit, since that's my "official" account, so I can't close it just like that).

[Revolutionary101]

With all this discussion, has anyone actually done something about it, like create a bug report?

Where would someone find a place to report a bug report regarding the official Ubuntu website?

[cariboo]

Where would someone find a place to report a bug report regarding the official Ubuntu website?

https://bugs.launchpad.net

[Revolutionary101]

https://bugs.launchpad.net

Yes I knew that launchpad was an appropriate place to file the bug report, however I don't believe that the launchpad website has a project related to the Ubuntu website. Is it appropriate to file under Ubuntu even though it does not have to do with a specific package?

[Revolutionary101]

Is it mandatory to use?

Not including would be removing freedom of choice.

I see what you are saying with this and it is true if Baidu created software for use on Linux, however this is regarding Canonical's practices for seeking support from Baidu as seen here:

http://www.canonical.com/news/ubuntu-10.04-for-software-vendors

I don't think they should downright limit the users choice to use the search engine I am just arguing that it is inappropriate for a business that promotes openness to also advertise and seek support from a company known for censorship.

[Docaltmed]

Slacktivism reaches a new low, when political protest takes the form of filing a bug report.

You complain that Baidu censors? Try this: Do a Google search. Screencap the answers. Do a DuckDuckGo search, using the same terms. Compare the two.

Often, significantly different results. Google is, in essence, censoring their search results based on their extensive knowledge of you. Your results are tailored to what the company knows of your purchasing habits, sites you visit, and political inclinations.

Now, certainly, this form of censorship is being done in the name of capitalism, not totalitarianism. But it is censorship nonetheless.

So, meh. Everybody censors, it's only the algorithm that's different.

[cariboo]

Slacktivism reaches a new low, when political protest takes the form of filing a bug report.

You complain that Baidu censors? Try this: Do a Google search. Screencap the answers. Do a DuckDuckGo search, using the same terms. Compare the two.

Often, significantly different results. Google is, in essence, censoring their search results based on their extensive knowledge of you. Your results are tailored to what the company knows of your purchasing habits, sites you visit, and political inclinations.

Now, certainly, this form of censorship is being done in the name of capitalism, not totalitarianism. But it is censorship nonetheless.

So, meh. Everybody censors, it's only the algorithm that's different.

The reason for filing a bug is to get answers from Canonical about this perceived problem. Canonical has a fairly large presence in China, with OEM agreements.

[d3v1150m471c]

My opinion is that you people don't have a leg to stand on. It's a private company providing a service and they can do what suites them. They don't owe you anything!

what's your point?

[Bandit]

Here is my 2cents. This has the potential to get into politics so I will just skim this briefly. Baidu gets influence from the Chines government. Linux is big in Asia, China is big. Thus this shows support in Asia and China. That siad I do not endorse nor will I condem Baidu. But I do see where this can be a bad call, not as bad as putting up a nazi swastika, but not best choice. But I also understand the reason behind the affiliation. If it really bothers you please email your feedback to the webmaster. Sure there must be a link somewhere. But be polite and professional about it. We are all human and everyone makes mistakes.

[wolfen69]

What a boring political thread! Ubuntu/Canaonical is not supporting censorship, they're just displaying the logo of a search engine, in this case, the largest search engine in China. So what? Baidu is a big company, they have their own internet browser, and if Baidu, or any other company wishes to support Canonical or the Linux community, I'm all for it. Leave the politics out of it.

I agree. People get there panties in a bunch over anything. Canonical IS NOT supporting censorship by displaying a logo. Geez people, take a chill pill.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Why does Ubuntu/Canonical support censorship?

Ubuntu is not supporting censorship.

Ubuntu is offering you the choice to use the browser you choose to use.

If you choose to use the Baidu browser then you choose to accept the censorship. If you choose to use Google Chrome then you choose to accept having your Internet activities tracked.

[corrytonapple]

Why does Ubuntu/Canonical support censorship?

Ubuntu is not supporting censorship.

Ubuntu is offering you the choice to use the browser you choose to use.

If you choose to use the Baidu browser then you choose to accept the censorship. If you choose to use Google Chrome then you choose to accept having your Internet activities tracked.
Remember, it isn't the browser, its the search engine. A user earlier reported that the browser is Windows only.

[zombifier25]

All this fuss over a freaking logo... Honestly I don't care.

[iponeverything]

All this fuss over a freaking logo... Honestly I don't care.

It all about agendas - Lots of folks out there have an agenda that they are obliged share. Religious, moral, political, whatever - What next? perhaps the placement of widows button on the left instead of the right?

There are plenty of worthwhile forums like AI and others that people can invest their energy into that are persistent thorns in sides of regimes that they don't agree with.

[kaldor]

While I disagree heavily with the CPC's censorship and companies like Baidu, I think this needs to be viewed a lot more realistically.

Canonical is a company. China is a huge market. Most Chinese use Baidu in some form or another. It's not like Canonical is directly enabling or supporting censorship. I'm quite sure the folks at Canonical thought about this, too.

I could say a lot more on this, but CoC etc.

[Herpythebrony]

I think yall are making a big deal out of nothing. They have Baidu available, who cares? It's not like they are supporting SOPA, PIPA, ACTA or CISPA or anything to that nature. I just really don't see what the big issue is here.

[Brynster]

I hate to break this to you all, especially you American brethren,

Google also edits searches
Bing Edits searches
Yahoo edits searches
Badu edits searches

All search engines do some level of search filtering and editing. Some suppress result they don't want you getting.

Have you tried doing a torrent search on Bing, you'll notice that a large famous torrent tracker is usually demoted several pages.

Have you tried searching for something nefarious in Google, typically the first 20 pages will link to the idealised public response to the search, much later pages may get you what your specifically looking for.

The only real difference is the the geographic location.

Yes badu are responsible for the governments legal requirements as a search engine. So was google while they where allowed in there.

Badu isn't the problem, they are trading under a regime.

Dont blame the playa' blame the game they're forced to play.

[Dry Lips]

[...]
You complain that Baidu censors? Try this: Do a Google search. Screencap the answers. Do a DuckDuckGo search, using the same terms. Compare the two.

Often, significantly different results. Google is, in essence, censoring their search results based on their extensive knowledge of you. Your results are tailored to what the company knows of your purchasing habits, sites you visit, and political inclinations.

Now, certainly, this form of censorship is being done in the name of capitalism, not totalitarianism. But it is censorship nonetheless.

So, meh. Everybody censors, it's only the algorithm that's different.

Let me first of all point out that I'm very sceptical towards “bubbling”, and I think that this practice is problematic. But to equate “bubbling” with censorship is way too easy. There is a vast difference between trying to give you what you want by analysing your browsing habits, and to block access to information that you do want. It's simply another game, mate!




Have you tried searching for something nefarious in Google, typically the first 20 pages will link to the idealised public response to the search, much later pages may get you what your specifically looking for.


That has probably to do with the algorithm; in other words that the “idealised public response” has a better page rank than the shady websites you're looking for.

[Dry Lips]

While I disagree heavily with the CPC's censorship and companies like Baidu, I think this needs to be viewed a lot more realistically.

Canonical is a company. China is a huge market. Most Chinese use Baidu in some form or another. It's not like Canonical is directly enabling or supporting censorship. I'm quite sure the folks at Canonical thought about this, too.

I could say a lot more on this, but CoC etc.

Google is a large company, Canonical is very small. Yet even Google got cold feet about and chose to withdraw from China. I think the problem here is that we really don't know what we're talking about. All we know is that there is a Baidu logo on the website, and that Baidu at the very least is a customer, perhaps even one of Canonical partners. http://www.canonical.com/news/ubuntu-10.04-for-software-vendors


What we need to is to get some clear answers from Canonical about the relationship between Canonical and Baidu. Of course we could file a bug report, but I think we ought to use another channel. Couldn't the Forum Council (or someone else) contact Canonical in order to ask for an official statement about the relationship between Canonical and Baidu? There are a few Canonical employees on this forum, right?


I think this thread has proved that the community is concerned about this issue, so that an official statement from Canonical is warranted in this case.

[sffvba[e0rt]

I think this community doth protest too much :rolleyes:


404

[CharlesA]

i think this community doth protest too much :rolleyes:


404
+1

[KiwiNZ]

I think this community doth protest too much :rolleyes:


404

Yep, every tea cup has tempest

[Revolutionary101]

I hate to break this to you all, especially you American brethren,

Google also edits searches
Bing Edits searches
Yahoo edits searches
Badu edits searches

All search engines do some level of search filtering and editing. Some suppress result they don't want you getting.


I would agree that they do edit searches however, they don't downright censor or block info. They still allow you find the information you need if you want to.

[corrytonapple]

I hate to break this to you all, especially you American brethren,

Google also edits searches
Bing Edits searches
Yahoo edits searches
Badu edits searches

All search engines do some level of search filtering and editing. Some suppress result they don't want you getting.

Have you tried doing a torrent search on Bing, you'll notice that a large famous torrent tracker is usually demoted several pages.

Have you tried searching for something nefarious in Google, typically the first 20 pages will link to the idealised public response to the search, much later pages may get you what your specifically looking for.

The only real difference is the the geographic location.

Yes badu are responsible for the governments legal requirements as a search engine. So was google while they where allowed in there.

Badu isn't the problem, they are trading under a regime.

Dont blame the playa' blame the game they're forced to play.


I would agree that they do edit searches however, they don't downright censor or block info. They still allow you find the information you need if you want to.
Both great points here

[Dry Lips]

I think this community doth protest too much :rolleyes:
404

Yep, every tea cup has tempest

Well, if you happen to have some reliable information about the relationship between Canonical and Baidu, it would be very easy reassure those of us who are worried about this. The problem right now is that there is very little information available.


That's why I think we need some kind of clarification from Canonical about this.

[wolfen69]

I think this community doth protest too much :rolleyes:


404

And whine.

[CharlesA]

That's why I think we need some kind of clarification from Canonical about this.

Would be nice, but I don't know if anyone from Canonical actually posts on the forums.


And whine.

What about wine? ;)

[KiwiNZ]

Well, if you happen to have some reliable information about the relationship between Canonical and Baidu, it would be very easy reassure those of us who are worried about this. The problem right now is that there is very little information available.


That's why I think we need some kind of clarification from Canonical about this.

Any commercial relationship between Canonical an Baidu is going to have zero to little impact on you or the vast majority of members here.

Also Canonicals corporate relationships are their business and confidential to them and their partners.

[xedi]

My 2 cents to two responses coming up here frequently:

1. Ubuntu can do whatever they want, they don't have to listen to us:

Yes, they don't but first of all some of us are customers (Ubuntu one, merchandise, buying software through the software-center) and then there is a huge community and transparency focus which beyond direct contributions also includes a lot of advertising and promotion so Canonical would have huge financial concerns in the case the community decides that they are unethical and thus we do have a big say over this matter, even if we're not in any leadership positions of Canonical.

2. Who cares, Ubuntu is not doing the censorship, Baidu allegedly is:

Oh right, so it is perfectly alright to support unethical companies as long as you are not directly involved in unethical activity?

Now, I know nothing about Baidu so I have no idea to what extent if at all they are an unethical company and it seems that nobody here really knows what Canonical's involvement is.

However, I do think that this is an important issue because in the case that Canonical's partners are unethical, it would be important for the community and their customers to know so that they can decide whether they want to support a company which partners which unethical companies.

As I said, I don't know whether this is the case here but since there are concerned Ubuntu users here I think it would be a good idea to get some information on the topic somehow (Ubuntu bug report seems a weird choice but I'm not sure what would be better)

[rg4w]

Baidu operates in the PRC, and must comply with that government's requirements.

If this sort of thing will affect your decision to use products that support companies that reside in the PRC, you may want to boycott everything from the United States, since the US has been renewing Most Favored Nation status for the PRC for decades.

And of course you'd want to boycott everything made in the PRC as well.

So once you no longer buy anything made in the PRC or from anyone who does business with the PRC, what's left?