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ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 01:48 AM
OK, I know my projects in the past have been horrible but this is really starting to tick me off. Tests are REALLY expensive for people who can't affford them and certification is not that good either. I've already forgotten all the information from my A+ cert class. I'm just riding on what I've had to repetively do for the last 8 years. I've got a few old computer science books that I haven't touched in a LONG time and I want to put together a course that people can take and get certified for around $10. I know it won't make me any money, but I'm honestly sick of all these courses that cost $100-900 which certify people. When you're looking for a job and your employer sees you don't have certification (because you can't afford it) and the next guy does he's going to hire the next guy. Would any of you be interested in contributing content/hosting if a service like this existed? I would be willing to contribute a majority of the text but I need images.

CharlesA
March 26th, 2012, 01:53 AM
The A+ is pretty much bottom of the barrel as far as certs go. If I remember right even that one was 90 bucks for each test, and you needed to take two of them.

Net+ is somewhat better but it's still expensive at around 200 bucks to take it.

Certs are only really good for padding your resume and impressing HR people. Anyone that deals with IT is going to hire you based off your experience and skills not because you have a certain cert.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 01:56 AM
The A+ is pretty much bottom of the barrel as far as certs go. If I remember right even that one was 90 bucks for each test, and you needed to take two of them.

Net+ is somewhat better but it's still expensive at around 200 bucks to take it.

Certs are only really good for padding your resume and impressing HR people. Anyone that deals with IT is going to hire you based off your experience and skills not because you have a certain cert.

That's true but if you're working online and the companies don't know you (My job with a company just ended) then they can't really see your work on your application. Especially sites like JustAnswer. They require certification, Work history of 2 years, or educational background.

EDIT: If I can write a certification book and show it to you guys, would you be willing to fill it with (original photos)? I would be willing to pay you guys for your troubles (once the test fees were collected).

Bandit
March 26th, 2012, 02:18 AM
The A+ is pretty much bottom of the barrel as far as certs go. If I remember right even that one was 90 bucks for each test, and you needed to take two of them.

Net+ is somewhat better but it's still expensive at around 200 bucks to take it.

Certs are only really good for padding your resume and impressing HR people. Anyone that deals with IT is going to hire you based off your experience and skills not because you have a certain cert.

This is kinda true, degree first, then pad the heck out of it with Certs.
In this demanding economy, the better your resume looks the better the chance you will get an interview. Even if your sharp as nails, a poor resume will just get your application thrown in the bottom of the pile. Get as many as you can so you can stand out. Ones I recomend the most are A+, Security+ and Linux+. Security being the hardest and A+ the easiest. But keep in mind they are all around 100 to 200 bucks with a student discount. Now you said you forgoten all you learned in A+ class, if that is the case then you dont deserve them or a job that your not willing to strive for. The CompTIA certs are little harder then they was just a few years ago and now we have to retake them every 3 years, but they are no longer useless decorations to stick on the wall anymore..

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 02:20 AM
How are you going to do this for a cost to student of $10?

CharlesA
March 26th, 2012, 02:28 AM
This is kinda true, degree first, then pad the heck out of it with Certs.
In this demanding economy, the better your resume looks the better the chance you will get an interview. Even if your sharp as nails, a poor resume will just get your application thrown in the bottom of the pile. Get as many as you can so you can stand out. Ones I recomend the most are A+, Security+ and Linux+. Security being the hardest and A+ the easiest. But keep in mind they are all around 100 to 200 bucks with a student discount. Now you said you forgoten all you learned in A+ class, if that is the case then you dont deserve them or a job that your not willing to strive for. The CompTIA certs are little harder then they was just a few years ago and now we have to retake them every 3 years, but they are no longer useless decorations to stick on the wall anymore..

Yeah, I'd rate them as Security+, Net+ and A+ from hardest to easiest. I haven't gotten around to Sec+ yet, but I did take Net+ and it wasn't really that hard. A+ was a piece of cake tho.

I might not know everything that was on the A+, but I'd guess about 90% of it was customer service stuff, at least when I took it and that was a few years ago.

Bandit
March 26th, 2012, 03:00 AM
Yeah, I'd rate them as Security+, Net+ and A+ from hardest to easiest. I haven't gotten around to Sec+ yet, but I did take Net+ and it wasn't really that hard. A+ was a piece of cake tho.

I might not know everything that was on the A+, but I'd guess about 90% of it was customer service stuff, at least when I took it and that was a few years ago.

Yea I believe thats what CompTIA recommends also. A N then Sec. Strangely then Linux is supposed to be the hardest past Security+, but IDK about that LOL. I am supposed to take my Linux+ next month, I will know little more about its deficulty then. I got the Study guide, but I still think Security should be the hardest of the bunch.

IIRC the A+ tests I took were about 30% Customer Service stuff relating to proper steps to working on systems, then about 30% Windows, 30% hardware related and 10% security information like ports and firewall configurations.
If I remember correctly..

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 03:23 AM
How are you going to do this for a cost to student of $10?

Internet marketing for income, paying the examiners half the fee to make sure testees aren't cheating and allowing the community to suggest questions from the study guide.


This is kinda true, degree first, then pad the heck out of it with Certs.
In this demanding economy, the better your resume looks the better the chance you will get an interview. Even if your sharp as nails, a poor resume will just get your application thrown in the bottom of the pile. Get as many as you can so you can stand out. Ones I recomend the most are A+, Security+ and Linux+. Security being the hardest and A+ the easiest. But keep in mind they are all around 100 to 200 bucks with a student discount. Now you said you forgoten all you learned in A+ class, if that is the case then you dont deserve them or a job that your not willing to strive for. The CompTIA certs are little harder then they was just a few years ago and now we have to retake them every 3 years, but they are no longer useless decorations to stick on the wall anymore..

It's been 8 years and all I use my computer for is programming, writing poetry novels, Facebook. I still remember how to take computers apart but I don't remember the internal processes like the pop thing where the information is taken up in the reverse order in which it was put down, that's something I don't remember very well but I can still tell when a "computer expert" is giving me the run around.

EDIT: Also, when a person loves computers they shouldn't have to be declined a job just because someone else (who hates them) can afford it and they can't. I mean even Ubuntu's certification is WAY up there (or it was the last time I checked).

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 03:30 AM
Internet marketing for income, paying the examiners half the fee to make sure testees aren't cheating and allowing the community to suggest questions from the study guide.



It's been 8 years and all I use my computer for is programming, writing poetry novels, Facebook. I still remember how to take computers apart but I don't remember the internal processes like the pop thing where the information is taken up in the reverse order in which it was put down, that's something I don't remember very well but I can still tell when a "computer expert" is giving me the run around.

How are you going to convince say Prometrics and Proctors to accept half their fee? Why would they do it for half when they can easily get the full fee?

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 03:45 AM
Internet marketing for income, paying the examiners half the fee to make sure testees aren't cheating and allowing the community to suggest questions from the study guide.



It's been 8 years and all I use my computer for is programming, writing poetry novels, Facebook. I still remember how to take computers apart but I don't remember the internal processes like the pop thing where the information is taken up in the reverse order in which it was put down, that's something I don't remember very well but I can still tell when a "computer expert" is giving me the run around.

EDIT: Also, when a person loves computers they shouldn't have to be declined a job just because someone else (who hates them) can afford it and they can't. I mean even Ubuntu's certification is WAY up there (or it was the last time I checked).

I have hired many many Computer /Network Techs over the years, now qualifications are not the only CV item I take into account but they are very important and provide a yard stick by which to measure and rank a candidate's ability. When up against certified ( recognized Qualifications) candidates the non certified or vaguely certified candidate will seldom be even shortlisted. Simply loving computers is not enough, period.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 03:54 AM
How are you going to convince say Prometrics and Proctors to accept half their fee? Why would they do it for half when they can easily get the full fee?

Where did Prometrics and Proctors come into play? I am going to charge each student $10. The examiner gets $5 (per test) on the day of the exam for making sure examanees aren't cheating. The examinees have to study on their own. If the examiner does see someone cheating the examiner has the right to disqualify that individual.


I have hired many many Computer /Network Techs over the years, now qualifications are not the only CV item I take into account but they are very important and provide a yard stick by which to measure and rank a candidate's ability. When up against certified ( recognized Qualifications) candidates the non certified or vaguely certified candidate will seldom be even shortlisted. Simply loving computers is not enough, period.

I understand that. That is the entire reason I want to do this. Poorer people who know things about computers don't get a chance to pad their resumes because it costs an arm and a leg to do so. At 5 dollars profit from the person (not counting supplies so even less). The company wouldn't be interested in profit as much as allowing someone to prove their computer skills. It should be a right afforded to everyone, not just the rich.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 04:05 AM
As I have not studied in a while and I want this to be community driven, I would like to know if anyone has any suggestions for topics to go into the first edition of the study book. If you do, please leave them in the thread. I literally have nothing to do for the next month. I will update the book frequenty through this time period. If you enjoy the topics covered, then please make more suggestions and at the end of the month if I have to drop this project, maybe someone else can pick it up (if you believe it is good enough).

So please feel free to make some suggestions on what you would like to see in the book. Thanks guys.

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 04:14 AM
Where did Prometrics and Proctors come into play? I am going to charge each student $10. The examiner gets $5 (per test) on the day of the exam for making sure examanees aren't cheating. The examinees have to study on their own. If the examiner does see someone cheating the examiner has the right to disqualify that individual.



I understand that. That is the entire reason I want to do this. Poorer people who know things about computers don't get a chance to pad their resumes because it costs an arm and a leg to do so. At 5 dollars profit from the person (not counting supplies so even less). The company wouldn't be interested in profit as much as allowing someone to prove their computer skills. It should be a right afforded to everyone, not just the rich.

Exam providers and proctors (supervisors) need to be industry recognized , trusted and suitably qualified.

A free of $5 or $10 would not even cover the cost of exam materials let alone other overheads such us rent etc for the exam venues.

Primary education is a basic human right but is not free , Higher education is not a basic human right and again it is not free. Fairness has nothing to do with it, there are costs that have to be met with the provision of such educational services and it is a fact of life that some may not be able to avail themselves of it due to fiscal limitations.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 04:23 AM
Exam providers and proctors (supervisors) need to be industry recognized , trusted and suitably qualified.

A free of $5 or $10 would not even cover the cost of exam materials let alone other overheads such us rent etc for the exam venues.

Primary education is a basic human right but is not free , Higher education is not a basic human right and again it is not free. Fairness has nothing to do with it, there are costs that have to be met with the provision of such educational services and it is a fact of life that some may not be able to avail themselves of it due to fiscal limitations.

Based on previous models (for example: amateur radio testing in the US, which costs anywhere from 0 to 15 dollars per applicant depending on what the examiner wants to charge) I can assure you it is financially possible. The organization wouldn't make very much money but that's not the point. The point is the freedom to educate one's self is EVERYONE'S RIGHT. That's why we have libraries, but if a person isn't given the ability to show that education because they can't afford to, something is wrong with the people in charge of authorizing individuals then. If you can study your butt off and learn material for 5/10/20 years and then can't get certified in it b/c you don't have the money, then we are living in nothing but a society of greed. That is NOT true knowledge.

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 04:26 AM
Based on previous models (for example: amateur radio testing in the US, which costs anywhere from 0 to 15 dollars per applicant depending on what the examiner wants to charge) I can assure you it is financially possible. The organization wouldn't make very much money but that's not the point. The point is the freedom to educate one's self is EVERYONE'S RIGHT. That's why we have libraries, but if a person isn't given the ability to show that education because they can't afford to, something is wrong with the people in charge of authorizing individuals then. If you can study your butt off and learn material for 5/10/20 years and then can't get certified in it b/c you don't have the money, then we are living in nothing but a society of greed. That is NOT true knowledge.

Unless the providers and testers are industry recognized the results will still be the same, that is, you will not get a job based of some unrecognized dodgy certifications.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 04:30 AM
Unless the providers and testers are industry recognized the results will still be the same, that is, you will not get a job based of some unrecognized dodgy certifications.

I forget, was it microsoft who created A+. I know they have some sort of certifications. What if we could get the founder of Linux (Linus) to certify this?

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 04:37 AM
I forget, was it microsoft who created A+. I know they have some sort of certifications. What if we could get the founder of Linux (Linus) to certify this?


A+ is a vendor neutral certification and is not Microsoft. MSFT created MCSA etc.

Getting Linus Torvalds involved still does not make it Industry Recognized.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 04:45 AM
A+ is a vendor neutral certification and is not Microsoft. MSFT created MCSA etc.

Getting Linus Torvalds involved still does not make it Industry Recognized.

OK since this is going to be community based, say for a second you actually believed it was everyone's right to educate themselves. It's pretty much at core of what Linux stands for. How would you go about getting it industry recognized. Funding is already taken care of.

I mean, all tests have to start out somewhere. So what journey would you send this one on to get it recognized?

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 04:53 AM
OK since this is going to be community based, say for a second you actually believed it was everyone's right to educate themselves. It's pretty much at core of what Linux stands for. How would you go about getting it industry recognized. Funding is already taken care of.

I mean, all tests have to start out somewhere. So what journey would you send this one on to get it recognized?


You would need to prove to Industry and Education leaders that the course material is correct and relevant, that the course providers are suitably qualified and audited. You would have to set up an independent examination process that is secure, professional and the Proctors are suitably qualified. You would have to convince the Industry and Educators that the exam process is ethical, independent and above reproach.

Now in order to obtain Industry and Educational recognized exam providers and Proctors you will need to match the fees being paid to these people or you simply will not attract them, after all they need to put food on their table.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 04:57 AM
You would need to prove to Industry and Education leaders that the course material is correct and relevant, that the course providers are suitably qualified and audited. You would have to set up an independent examination process that is secure, professional and the Proctors are suitably qualified. You would have to convince the Industry and Educators that the exam process is ethical, independent and above reproach.

Now in order to obtain Industry and Educational recognized exam providers and Proctors you will need to match the fees being paid to these people or you simply will not attract them, after all they need to put food on their table.

What do you mean by idependent?

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 04:59 AM
What do you mean by idependent?

A course provider cannot be the exam provider, to do so would be unethical and carry no credibility.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 05:03 AM
A course provider cannot be the exam provider, to do so would be unethical and carry no credibility.

I have you now. Thanks.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 05:40 AM
Community being defined as members who have already passed their test.

New model: Test is composed and graded by the community. Community members get to vote on the questions in the pool and 10 random community memebers grade each examinee's test. An examinee may request the test be regraded twice. Community members may become examiners (after an examiner's course) and may charge upto $5 per student. To administer an exam. The exam is paid for by advertising. The examiner will not grade the tests, just make sure no one is cheating.
The initial set of community members will have to be composed of individuals who have passed another recognized certification of some sort.

EDIT: There will be no study guide but the question pool will be open to the general public.

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 05:46 AM
Community being defined as members who have already passed their test.

New model: Test is composed and graded by the community. Community members get to vote on the questions in the pool and 10 random community memebers grade each examinee's test. An examinee may request the test be regraded twice. Community members may become examiners (after an examiner's course) and may charge upto $5 per student. To administer an exam. The exam is paid for by advertising. The examiner will not grade the tests, just make sure no one is cheating.
The initial set of community members will have to be composed of individuals who have passed another recognized certification of some sort.

EDIT: There will be no study guide but the question pool will be open to the general public.

As a long time senior IT Manager and employer I can tell you whilst I appreciate your intentions your proposal would not gain acceptance.

Bandit
March 26th, 2012, 11:52 AM
...........

EDIT: Also, when a person loves computers they shouldn't have to be declined a job just because someone else (who hates them) can afford it and they can't. I mean even Ubuntu's certification is WAY up there (or it was the last time I checked).

While I can feel your pain, their are alternatives to help you pay for such expenses. I for one spent 6 1/2 years in the Military and then used my GI Bill money to pay for tuition and education/certification expenses. The bottom line is, and this may sound hard on you, but forgive me but this is how it is: A company looks at two people with both IT degrees, one has certs the other doesnt. The company will heir the one with the certs because they believe that individual tried harder to get them. Not just working harder to have the money for them, but also in the studying to pass them. Thats just the way it is.. This is how most companies rate people.
Those with no degree -> 2 year degree -> 2 year with certs -> 4 year degree -> 4 year with certs, and so one..
Thats just the way it is..

The A+ is little less then 200 USD. Dont take this to harshly, but if you cant find the money for that sadly I am not sure your gonna be able to afford a months gas to drive to work either.. :)

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 11:56 AM
OK, I know my projects in the past have been horrible but this is really starting to tick me off. Tests are REALLY expensive for people who can't affford them and certification is not that good either. I've already forgotten all the information from my A+ cert class. I'm just riding on what I've had to repetively do for the last 8 years. I've got a few old computer science books that I haven't touched in a LONG time and I want to put together a course that people can take and get certified for around $10. I know it won't make me any money, but I'm honestly sick of all these courses that cost $100-900 which certify people. When you're looking for a job and your employer sees you don't have certification (because you can't afford it) and the next guy does he's going to hire the next guy. Would any of you be interested in contributing content/hosting if a service like this existed? I would be willing to contribute a majority of the text but I need images.

no offence but why would the industry want to be certified by you as oppose to CompTIA ?

A cert may be easy or hard, cheap or expensive but if no one recognises who it is endorsed by then it is worth nothing either way.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 12:01 PM
A course provider cannot be the exam provider, to do so would be unethical and carry no credibility.

thats not true, many exam providers provide the course also.

ISC2 springs to mind though i didnt sit the course i took the CISSP exam with them which is held and adjudicated by them, i was sitting the exam with the people who had just sat the course.

EC-Council deliver courses and provide the exam

These are 2 of many unless i misunderstood your statement

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 12:26 PM
While I can feel your pain, their are alternatives to help you pay for such expenses. I for one spent 6 1/2 years in the Military and then used my GI Bill money to pay for tuition and education/certification expenses. The bottom line is, and this may sound hard on you, but forgive me but this is how it is: A company looks at two people with both IT degrees, one has certs the other doesnt. The company will heir the one with the certs because they believe that individual tried harder to get them. Not just working harder to have the money for them, but also in the studying to pass them. Thats just the way it is.. This is how most companies rate people.
Those with no degree -> 2 year degree -> 2 year with certs -> 4 year degree -> 4 year with certs, and so one..
Thats just the way it is..

The A+ is little less then 200 USD. Dont take this to harshly, but if you cant find the money for that sadly I am not sure your gonna be able to afford a months gas to drive to work either.. :)

Actually I have two feet and enjoy a walk to work (when I work in public) currently, I was working online. Still, Not everyone has your luxury (medical discharge from the military) and tests don't prove dedication. They simply prove that people know what they're doing. That's the very definition of a test. If other factors are a concern (like test fees), the test cannot take those factors into consideration. So, technically if someone can't spare $200 (I can name at least 30 people who can't pull together $200) if you can't then you must have a VERY closed world view because the majority of people I know can't do that. They can't spare $30 to $40 much less $200.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 12:28 PM
no offence but why would the industry want to be certified by you as oppose to CompTIA ?

A cert may be easy or hard, cheap or expensive but if no one recognises who it is endorsed by then it is worth nothing either way.

All certs had to start out somewhere. Why not as an idea first? An idea to certify people who can't afford things. Perhaps after it's written, we can worry about getting it recognized.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 12:31 PM
Actually I have two feet and enjoy a walk to work (when I work in public) currently, I was working online. Still, Not everyone has your luxury (medical discharge from the military) and tests don't prove dedication. They simply prove that people know what they're doing. That's the very definition of a test. If other factors are a concern (like test fees), the test cannot take those factors into consideration. So, technically if someone can't spare $200 (I can't name at least 30 people who can't pull together $200) if you can't then you must have a VERY closed world view because the majority of people I know can't do that. They can't spare $30 to $40 much less $200.

actually a test does not prove the person knows what they are doing, it proves they can pass a test.

The market is flooded with so called "paper" MCSE's, A+ etc and other certs.

Certs for the most part are fairly easy and alot of them Microsoft and CompTIA being the biggest offenders are easily passed with rote memorisation, alot of people braindump these tests.

Not taking anything away from the people with these certs ( I am one of them with many other certs) but a test just tests the ability remember and pass that test in this example.

I also have taught alot of the courses, and i know there is big difference in saying you are this or that and being able to perform the task on the job.

RHCE, CCIE, CREST, CHECK and many others test the ability to do it as oppose just choose from a multiple choice or tick a box and hope its right (usually 1 in 4 chance)

and regardless of the price if someone really wants to they would save or borrow or find funding to take the cert, if they dont then they are not that bothered about it in the first place IMO.

I know there are plenty of people who "cant afford" this or that but there is always a way or funding somehow

also here is a free course

http://www.e-learningcenter.com/free_aplus_course.htm

here are some not free but cheap courses

http://classroomdoor.com/ecommerce/online-training-courses-packages.asp

i didnt search for long but i am sure there are many similar ones.

I know my local college do the A+ for 80 (which is about $130) or for nothing if claiming benefit and other entry level basic courses such as A+, Net+ and others

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 12:53 PM
actually a test does not prove the person knows what they are doing, it proves they can pass a test.

The market is flooded with so called "paper" MCSE's, A+ etc and other certs.

Certs for the most part are fairly easy and alot of them Microsoft and CompTIA being the biggest offenders are easily passed with rote memorisation, alot of people braindump these tests.

Not taking anything away from the people with these certs ( I am one of them with many other certs) but a test just tests the ability remember and pass that test in this example.

I also have taught alot of the courses, and i know there is big difference in saying you are this or that and being able to perform the task on the job.

RHCE, CCIE, CREST, CHECK and many others test the ability to do it as oppose just choose from a multiple choice or tick a box and hope its right (usually 1 in 4 chance)

and regardless of the price if someone really wants to they would save or borrow or find funding to take the cert, if they dont then they are not that bothered about it in the first place IMO.

I know there are plenty of people who "cant afford" this or that but there is always a way or funding somehow

also here is a free course

http://www.e-learningcenter.com/free_aplus_course.htm

here are some not free but cheap courses

http://classroomdoor.com/ecommerce/online-training-courses-packages.asp

i didnt search for long but i am sure there are many similar ones.

I know my local college do the A+ for 80 (which is about $130) or for nothing if claiming benefit and other entry level basic courses such as A+, Net+ and others

Thanks for the external links. I may use them to brush up. I do get what you are saying. It is possible to acomplish a lot when you set your mind to it but it's not always possible to do the impossible (if that makes sense). It's like the phrase "Never say never."

If you're never allowed to say you can't do something, then can you say, "I can't do something."?

If you say "no" then you've just said you can't do something.
If you say "yes" then you've just disproven your entire argument.

A new field of psychology is studying the link between kids being told they could accomplish anything in school and the crash it offers people who are given seconds instead of firsts. It's now been ruled a VERY dangerous assumption. What I mean to say is, there are only so many spots available. If everyone believes they can do the impossible and not everyone get's a spot, you do the math. There are other limiting factors in life than dedication.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 01:00 PM
Thanks for the external links. I may use them to brush up. I do get what you are saying. It is possible to acomplish a lot when you set your mind to it but it's not always possible to do the impossible (if that makes sense). It's like the phrase "Never say never."

If you're never allowed to say you can't do something, then can you say, "I can't do something."?

If you say "no" then you've just said you can't do something.
If you say "yes" then you've just disproven your entire argument.

A new field of psychology is studying the link between kids being told they could accomplish anything in school and the crash it offers people who are given seconds instead of firsts. It's now been ruled a VERY dangerous assumption. What I mean to say is, there are only so many spots available. If everyone believes they can do the impossible and not everyone get's a spot, you do the math. There are other limiting factors in life than dedication.


and so if its only $10 then they can do it ? ;-)

as you just said yourself not everything is possible, so regardless of whether $10 or $1000 doesnt meant anything.

accomplishing the goal of achieving the cert or having the ability to so or whatever is different than just having the modus operandi to get a few hundred bucks together to try.

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 01:03 PM
and so if its only $10 then they can do it ? ;-)

as you just said yourself not everything is possible, so regardless of whether $10 or $1000 doesnt meant anything.

accomplishing the goal of achieving the cert or having the ability to so or whatever is different than just having the modus operandi to get a few hundred bucks together to try.

Yes, but decreasing the amount from $200 to $10 would drastically increase the number of spots available.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 01:04 PM
Yes, but decreasing the amount from $200 to $10 would drastically increase the number of spots available.

LOL.

Well good luck though you dont need it cause it wont happen anyways ;-)

Peace

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 01:05 PM
LOL.

Well good luck though you dont need it cause it wont happen anyways ;-)

Peace

Thanks :) I don't believe in luck though so you're right. I don't need it.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 01:07 PM
Thanks :) I don't believe in luck though so you're right. I don't need it.

really ?

but that kind of contradicts your earlier statement. There are only so many spots available right and not everything is possible.

So doesnt that mean some luck is needed, if no luck was needed then anyone could achieve anything within reason ;-)

and are you gonna design this course during, before or after riding across america or redesigning the internet ? ;-) (no offence meant by the way)

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 01:19 PM
really ?

but that kind of contradicts your earlier statement. There are only so many spots available right and not everything is possible.

So doesnt that mean some luck is needed, if no luck was needed then anyone could achieve anything within reason ;-)

and are you gonna design this course during, before or after riding across america or redesigning the internet ? ;-) (no offence meant by the way)

I decided to do this before. No offense taken. I had a GREAT idea. People didn't want to try it and I didn't have the resources for it. It was still my idea and I'm still glad I had it. It means I'm not wasting brain power. I'm being creative as a person with a majorly right brain focus would do.

Not believing in luck doesn't really contradict my earlier statement. It more or less reinforces it. I believe in probability not luck. Odds. though I also believe in free will, If you associate odds with Luck then that is you but I don't believe in coincidenses or luck. There is always something behind what is to make it that way.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 01:22 PM
I decided to do this before. No offense taken. I had a GREAT idea. People didn't want to try it and I didn't have the resources for it. It was still my idea and I'm still glad I had it. It means I'm not wasting brain power. I'm being creative as a person with a majorly right brain focus would do.

Not believing in luck doesn't really contradict my earlier statement. It more or less reinforces it. I believe in probability not luck. Odds. though I also believe in free will, If you associate odds with Luck then that is you but I don't believe in coincidenses or luck. There is always something behind what is to make it that way.

so if you win the lottery it is the odds and you arent lucky then ? ;-)

mmmmmm

ki4jgt
March 26th, 2012, 01:25 PM
so if you win the lottery it is the odds and you arent lucky then ? ;-)

mmmmmm

Pretty much. The way I look at luck is say someone saying a four leaf clover magically made sure they didn't run out of gas while driving down the freeway on empty.

That is luck. Odds are backed by something.

CharlesA
March 26th, 2012, 03:22 PM
actually a test does not prove the person knows what they are doing, it proves they can pass a test.

The market is flooded with so called "paper" MCSE's, A+ etc and other certs.

Certs for the most part are fairly easy and alot of them Microsoft and CompTIA being the biggest offenders are easily passed with rote memorisation, alot of people braindump these tests.

That's what I've heard too. I know there are braindump sites around too. Even for the Net+ test, it is just a boatload of repletion and memorization. At least one of the MS exams is a "hands on" one, one for Server 2008 at the time I attempted it, which cannot be completed by just reading a book - you need real life experience for it. I think that those sort of tests have more "value" than say picking the correct answer out of 4 multiple choice ones.

Paqman
March 26th, 2012, 03:24 PM
I want to put together a course that people can take and get certified for around $10

Look at this from an employers point of view: how much value would you place in a certification you'd never heard of from some guy on the internet?

If your certification isn't recognised by anyone, it's not worth even $10.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 03:37 PM
That's what I've heard too. I know there are braindump sites around too. Even for the Net+ test, it is just a boatload of repletion and memorization. At least one of the MS exams is a "hands on" one, one for Server 2008 at the time I attempted it, which cannot be completed by just reading a book - you need real life experience for it. I think that those sort of tests have more "value" than say picking the correct answer out of 4 multiple choice ones.

the 2008 exams (MCITP) are the same format as before with 2003 and 2000.

After NT4 they introduced scenario based exams, still with multiple choice but also scenarios and interaction using the interface but again they are easy to memorise as the pool of scenarios are limited and so get posted to the braindump sites also.

download any testking or certkiller and it includes the scenarios you will see.

The MS exams have always been that way, they have made some improvements and increased the pool for sure but still easy to obtain with not much hands on knowledge.

CharlesA
March 26th, 2012, 03:45 PM
the 2008 exams (MCITP) are the same format as before with 2003 and 2000.

After NT4 they introduced scenario based exams, still with multiple choice but also scenarios and interaction using the interface but again they are easy to memorise as the pool of scenarios are limited and so get posted to the braindump sites also.

download any testking or certkiller and it includes the scenarios you will see.

The MS exams have always been that way, they have made some improvements and increased the pool for sure but still easy to obtain with not much hands on knowledge.
Ah, that explains it then. Thanks!

That was the first MS exam I took and it was totally different from anything CompTIA has out.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 03:56 PM
Ah, that explains it then. Thanks!

That was the first MS exam I took and it was totally different from anything CompTIA has out.

yeah CompTIA are straight forward multiple choice.

However i was invited back in 2010 to be a SME for the security + exam at their Chicago HQ (nothing special really if you have certain certifications with them they can invite you) to consult on the exam questions and format (the per diem is nice though) anyways i was tied up with other things. But my buddy attended and he said there was discussion of in the future making some of the exams about 40% practical for A+ Net+ and Security +.

Which is a good idea, especially for A+ but i dont know what work has gone into that development if any.

Be good to see more practical hands on exams in IT.

I am currently prepping for CREST and the majority is hands on which is how it should be.

I mean take a look at Linux + what a epic fail in terms of content (mostly outdated) but then compare it to something like RHCE (distro specific i know) but still.

Theory and theory exams have their place for sure, like CCNA is a good entry level basic exam/cert and a stepping stone requirement for further on such as CCIE.

But i mean MS exams fail all the way, i think the program should include alot more practical hands on

CharlesA
March 26th, 2012, 04:02 PM
yeah CompTIA are straight forward multiple choice.

However i was invited back in 2010 to be a SME for the security + exam at their Chicago HQ (nothing special really if you have certain certifications with them they can invite you) to consult on the exam questions and format (the per diem is nice though) anyways i was tied up with other things. But my buddy attended and he said there was discussion of in the future making some of the exams about 40% practical for A+ Net+ and Security +.

Which is a good idea, especially for A+ but i dont know what work has gone into that development if any.

Be good to see more practical hands on exams in IT.

I am currently prepping for CREST and the majority is hands on which is how it should be.

I mean take a look at Linux + what a epic fail in terms of content (mostly outdated) but then compare it to something like RHCE (distro specific i know) but still.

Theory and theory exams have their place for sure, like CCNA is a good entry level basic exam/cert and a stepping stone requirement for further on such as CCIE.

But i mean MS exams fail all the way, i think the program should include alot more practical hands on

That's awesome. Practical exams are way better at testing knowledge than having an exam with "multiple guess" type questions considering you actually have to have experience with what the exam is testing as opposed to just doing a braindump or reading and memorizing a text book/study guide.

I've been tempted to take the CCNA exam, but I don't know if I'd have the time to really focus on it with school and work, but I have a feeling that will by my next goal after I finish my Bachelors. I've heard it's fairly difficult but if you pass it, it means you know what you are talking about.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 04:27 PM
That's awesome. Practical exams are way better at testing knowledge than having an exam with "multiple guess" type questions considering you actually have to have experience with what the exam is testing as opposed to just doing a braindump or reading and memorizing a text book/study guide.

I've been tempted to take the CCNA exam, but I don't know if I'd have the time to really focus on it with school and work, but I have a feeling that will by my next goal after I finish my Bachelors. I've heard it's fairly difficult but if you pass it, it means you know what you are talking about.

CCNA is a good exam for Cisco based product entry, it is a step up from Network + IMO.

It does focus really on the ability to understand protocols and addressing, VLSM and CIDR etc and basic IOS stuff for the basic router and switch products.

It is entry level in terms of Cisco but i would definately rate it higher than other generic networking exams, but still a base level exam overall.

Looks good on CV, rated higher than CompTIA and good starting point for Cisco products for sure.

My local college include it as part of the IT HND now (which is a higher national diploma) sort of the poor mans Associate degree of sorts.

KiwiNZ
March 26th, 2012, 06:51 PM
The bottom line to my argument is. A qualification will not on it's own gain a candidate employment. However good recognized qualifications will help a candidate to be short listed. Qualifications that appear to be mail order or from a Breakfast Cereal box will not.

haqking
March 26th, 2012, 06:53 PM
The bottom line to my argument is. A qualification will not on it's own gain a candidate employment. However good recognized qualifications will help a candidate to be short listed. Qualifications that appear to be mail order or from a Breakfast Cereal box will not.

+1

Totally agree.

For the most part when taking a cert these days you are paying to be endorsed by a recognised industry vendor or authority and bump your CV into the shortlist.

Peace

CharlesA
March 26th, 2012, 08:21 PM
CCNA is a good exam for Cisco based product entry, it is a step up from Network + IMO.

It does focus really on the ability to understand protocols and addressing, VLSM and CIDR etc and basic IOS stuff for the basic router and switch products.

It is entry level in terms of Cisco but i would definately rate it higher than other generic networking exams, but still a base level exam overall.

Looks good on CV, rated higher than CompTIA and good starting point for Cisco products for sure.

My local college include it as part of the IT HND now (which is a higher national diploma) sort of the poor mans Associate degree of sorts.
That's pretty cool. Thanks!

Bandit
March 27th, 2012, 03:30 AM
Yes, but decreasing the amount from $200 to $10 would drastically increase the number of spots available.

You miss the point of the fee... Yes they could charge 10 or 20 bucks, but then everyone would be taking them over and over until they learned all the questions or got lucky and passed, thus rendering the exam pointless. The fee is put in place to check a persons sincerity and the exam difficulty is not to determine you know anything but that you are sincere enough to bother studying. 130 bucks for a A+ is affordable. I managed to sum up the cash, married with a child and no job.

Bandit
March 27th, 2012, 03:34 AM
CCNA is a good exam for Cisco based product entry, it is a step up from Network + IMO.
....

I agree also..

Warpnow
March 27th, 2012, 04:29 AM
If a potential applicant does not believe their career is worth a few hundred dollars, and they lack the motivation, drive, or ingenuity to raise such money, I would not want to hire them.

If you're familiar with job market signalling, this is a good example of it. Employers do not want to spend a ton of time figuring out who is dedicated and who is now, so they look for general trends- yes, some people defy the trend, but spending the money to have people search for those few would cost them more than the increase in efficiency they'd recieve from those employees.

ki4jgt
March 27th, 2012, 06:40 AM
You miss the point of the fee... Yes they could charge 10 or 20 bucks, but then everyone would be taking them over and over until they learned all the questions or got lucky and passed, thus rendering the exam pointless. The fee is put in place to check a persons sincerity and the exam difficulty is not to determine you know anything but that you are sincere enough to bother studying. 130 bucks for a A+ is affordable. I managed to sum up the cash, married with a child and no job.

That can't be accurate as that mentality would mean that they would want to accept me if I dedicated myself to studying human anatomy for 10 years. I'm sorry but a test is to prove that you know the subject matter. There may be alterior motives but a test is by definition just to prove something's worth.


If a potential applicant does not believe their career is worth a few hundred dollars, and they lack the motivation, drive, or ingenuity to raise such money, I would not want to hire them.

If you're familiar with job market signalling, this is a good example of it. Employers do not want to spend a ton of time figuring out who is dedicated and who is now, so they look for general trends- yes, some people defy the trend, but spending the money to have people search for those few would cost them more than the increase in efficiency they'd recieve from those employees.

I am familiar with job market signaling. It's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard of. I personally know people who have 10 + years of experience (taking care of elderly family members with everything from cleaning up feces to moderating their medications) in a particular field get denied because they didn't have a nice bubbly smile plastered all over their face (The interviewer's excuse: You don't have any life experience.) where as the company hired an employee who actually had no experience what so ever because they came in as happy as a song bird. It's more than some people. It's a lot of people. Interviewers no longer care about experience. They don't want to know people. They don't want to understand others or how qualified they are. They just want the money so they can go home and stuff their faces. Interviewers are asking for your facebook, myspace, twitter, diaspora and myyearbook passwords now so that they can cut corners and not have to do the very thing they were hired to do.

NOTE: The above contents have been cleaned up to the best of the original poster's ability.

KiwiNZ
March 27th, 2012, 06:53 AM
That can't be accurate as that mentality would mean that they would want to accept me if I dedicated myself to studying human anatomy for 10 years. I'm sorry but a test is to prove that you know the subject matter. There may be alterior motives but a test is by definition just to prove something's worth.





The value of the test (qualification) is directly linked to the value of the course taken. If the course has no credibility the qualification has no credibility.

KiwiNZ
March 27th, 2012, 06:58 AM
I am familiar with job market signaling. It's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard of. I personally know people who have 10 + years of experience (taking care of elderly family members with everything from cleaning up feces to moderating their medications) in a particular field get denied because they didn't have a nice bubbly smile plastered all over their face (The interviewer's excuse: You don't have any life experience.) where as the company hired an employee who actually had no experience what so ever because they came in as happy as a song bird. It's more than some people. It's a lot of people. Interviewers no longer care about experience. They don't want to know people. They don't want to understand others or how qualified they are. They just want the money so they can go home and stuff their faces. Interviewers are asking for your facebook, myspace, twitter, diaspora and myyearbook passwords now so that they can cut corners and not have to do the very thing they were hired to do.

NOTE: The above contents have been cleaned up to the best of the original poster's ability.

This wrong on so many counts, to claim this ("Interviewers no longer care about experience. They don't want to know people. They don't want to understand others or how qualified they are. They just want the money so they can go home and stuff their faces".) is abjectly incorrect and insulting and displays a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the hiring process. It costs considerable money to seek, interview, hire and train new staff, I budget 3 times the annual salary for the process. To claim they do not care is ludicrous.

ki4jgt
March 27th, 2012, 07:27 AM
This wrong on so many counts, to claim this ("Interviewers no longer care about experience. They don't want to know people. They don't want to understand others or how qualified they are. They just want the money so they can go home and stuff their faces".) is abjectly incorrect and insulting and displays a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the hiring process. It costs considerable money to seek, interview, hire and train new staff, I budget 3 times the annual salary for the process. To claim they do not care is ludicrous.

OK, you're correct. That was insulting. Let me rephrase this without all the anger in a logical manner and we'll take it from there.

In a society where happiness is determined by achievement, it is only natural that those who achieve would be seperated from those who do not achieve (am I getting this right so far?) as putting someone who doesn't achieve in a position near someone who does would ruin the achiever's happiness. Thus, the person achieving may lose touch with what it feels like to desire to achieve because s/he is surrounded by people who have already achieved. Thus, while the individual who has achieved is trying to achieve more (but may be limited), they may associate achievement with the happiness they felt with achieving. So when they see a smile they automatically assume achievement and less finincial burden on the company. Even though a person who isn't so chipper doesn't cost as much to train (because they already know what they're doing) as the person who is smiling. The person who already achieved is taking the shortcut and assuming that the smile means more experience even though they have no proof of that what so ever? Correct me if I'm wrong.

KiwiNZ
March 27th, 2012, 07:42 AM
OK, you're correct. That was insulting. Let me rephrase this without all the anger in a logical manner and we'll take it from there.

In a society where happiness is determined by achievement, it is only natural that those who achieve would be seperated from those who do not achieve (am I getting this right so far?) as putting someone who doesn't achieve in a position near someone who does would ruin the achiever's happiness. Thus, the person achieving may lose touch with what it feels like to desire to achieve because s/he is surrounded by people who have already achieved. Thus, while the individual who has achieved is trying to achieve more (but may be limited), they may associate achievement with the happiness they felt with achieving. So when they see a smile they automatically assume achievement and less finincial burden on the company. Even though a person who isn't so chipper doesn't cost as much to train (because they already know what they're doing) as the person who is smiling. The person who already achieved is taking the shortcut and assuming that the smile means more experience even though they have no proof of that what so ever? Correct me if I'm wrong.


OK let me explain how I hired. Firstly I would advertise or request our Employment consultants to submit CV's. I would then read every CV received
this I usually did after work at home often until late at night. I would compare the attributes, qualifications and experience against the
job description and position critical factors. From that process that sometimes would take several days a short list of candidates is formed.
I would then appoint a panel usually myself and two other staff members, I would also draft a series of questions etc for the initial interviews.

I would along with the panel conduct the initial interviews and then meet with the panel over many hours to determine the candidates to go forward
for further interviews.The process is repeated through subsequent interviews until the successful candidate is found.

Your trivialization of this process clearly demonstrates and misunderstanding of the hiring process.

ki4jgt
March 27th, 2012, 07:53 AM
OK let me explain how I hired. Firstly I would advertise or request our Employment consultants to submit CV's. I would then read every CV received
this I usually did after work at home often until late at night. I would compare the attributes, qualifications and experience against the
job description and position critical factors. From that process that sometimes would take several days a short list of candidates is formed.
I would then appoint a panel usually myself and two other staff members, I would also draft a series of questions etc for the initial interviews.

I would along with the panel conduct the initial interviews and then meet with the panel over many hours to determine the candidates to go forward
for further interviews.The process is repeated through subsequent interviews until the successful candidate is found.

Your trivialization of this process clearly demonstrates and misunderstanding of the hiring process.

And where are you located LOL? I understand the hiring process fine where I am but yours is totally different. Smaller jobs are usually conducted by only one inteviewer and they don't consult panels. Like I mentioned my friend earlier who cared for his grandmother and I have another who worked on a farm. We all have doom and gloom attitudes (don't ask because I really don't know) but for some reason hiring managers refused to hire us all for the longest time. They said we had no work experience. I'm sorry for the insult. Your company may have taken a panel approach but the majority of jobs out there do not do this. They can't afford to (at least where I'm from).

On a lighter note: I got a new job today which pays well above minimum wage. I still hold my position though that in companies which do not have the resources to put together these panels, hiring managers do nothing more than assume your qualifications based on a simple smile or meaningless gesture which can no more determine qualification than the Earth can stop rotation (always a slight possibility).

Paqman
March 27th, 2012, 08:06 AM
Thus, the person achieving may lose touch with what it feels like to desire to achieve because s/he is surrounded by people who have already achieved.

Success isn't a state, it's a process. You don't suddenly arrive there and then get to rest on your laurels. You get there by having good work habits, and if you stop trying just because you've reached a certain level you'll quickly get overtaken by those out for your job.

It's much easier to coast at lower rungs of the ladder. Doing so further up sticks out like the dog's proverbials IMO.



So when they see a smile they automatically assume achievement and less finincial burden on the company.

I think you're overanalysing this smiling thing. While interviewers should ideally be dispassionate about hiring, the reality is that a very large part of whether you get hired comes down to demeanour and how you come across. An interview is a social exchange. Demonstrating good social skills such as smiling and eye contact are vital for interviewing well.

People hire someone they would enjoy seeing every day at work. If you make the interviewer like you you've just made it that little bit tougher for them to justify not hiring you.

Paqman
March 27th, 2012, 08:09 AM
Smaller jobs are usually conducted by only one inteviewer and they don't consult panels.

Depends on the size of the company. Like you say, small companies you might do a one-to-one because the boss probably understand enough about the whole company to cover everything, but larger ones you'll generally get a manager, someone for the technical questions and a drone from HR. Sometimes in my industry the technical interview is held separately.

ki4jgt
March 27th, 2012, 08:46 AM
Depends on the size of the company. Like you say, small companies you might do a one-to-one because the boss probably understand enough about the whole company to cover everything, but larger ones you'll generally get a manager, someone for the technical questions and a drone from HR. Sometimes in my industry the technical interview is held separately.

I'm talking more chain companies. The ones which are privately owned but corporately owned as well. Usually we got a manager (as in more than one) and no drone from HR. In fact, I'm not even sure they had an HR drone.

KiwiNZ
March 27th, 2012, 08:49 AM
Drone from HR , what a disgusting term, they are a very valuable support for managers

Elfy
March 27th, 2012, 08:57 AM
This has gone on long enough - closed.