What company could top Apple in build quality and market share?

[waloshin]

Apple just sold 3 million iPad 3s in the past 4 days. So I would assume around 1 billion in profit.

What company can take on Apple in build quality and maybe even surpass them?

I do not think Samsung could.

[TBABill]

Right now I don't see any current company overtaking their products, or more importantly their marketing machine. Apple created the ability to sell someone what they never knew they wanted. In the marketing world that's pure magic, but they do have a good product with a strong allure. No company out there has the ingredients of marketing, product and innovation to overcome their hold as the superpower of electronics.

[grahammechanical]

+ not paying shareholders a dividend since 1995 and still have people trading in the shares.

Oh, don't you know Apple do not actually build their products. The companies that are contracted to build to the Apple specification could certainly match them in build quality.

[wolfen69]

The "build quality" people speak of is just shiny, eye pleasing packaging. The components inside are nothing special.

[IWantFroyo]

HTC makes the best feeling electronics I've tried. Samsung and Apple's stuff feels too fragile to me, but most HTC phones feel excellent.

I wish they got into more than phones, though. I'd love to see an HTC computer.

[BertN45]

Apple will remain the best and most expensive for a long period of time. They have the experience and they keep all development in their own hand. You can only beat them in price and Samsung does a good job at that.

[KiwiNZ]

The "build quality" people speak of is just shiny, eye pleasing packaging. The components inside are nothing special.

Not entirely correct

[whatthefunk]

Apple just sold 3 million iPad 3s in the past 4 days. So I would assume around 1 billion in profit.


Not unless Apple makes $300 profit on a single iPad, which it obviously doesnt.

Eventually, Apple will have to come up with something new...I wonder how that will go without Steve Jobs around. Steve Jobs was of course a good inventor, but he was a better sales man. By creating a black turtleneck personality cult, he was able to convince millions of people around the world that they needed things that the previously didnt need. I wonder if any one else in Apple can have that same influence over people.

[wolfen69]

Apple will remain the best and most expensive for a long period of time.

"Best" is a matter of opinion. However, "most expensive" is spot on.

[KiwiNZ]

Not unless Apple makes $300 profit on a single iPad, which it obviously doesnt.

Eventually, Apple will have to come up with something new...I wonder how that will go without Steve Jobs around. Steve Jobs was of course a good inventor, but he was a better sales man. By creating a black turtleneck personality cult, he was able to convince millions of people around the world that they needed things that the previously didnt need. I wonder if any one else in Apple can have that same influence over people.

IBM, Ford, General Motors, HP all come up with new products with out their founders, Apple will be no different.

[whatthefunk]

IBM, Ford, General Motors, HP all come up with new products with out their founders, Apple will be no different.

Yes, of course they will come up with new things. But can somebody else in Apple sell it as well as Jobs did?

[KiwiNZ]

Yes, of course they will come up with new things. But can somebody else in Apple sell it as well as Jobs did?

Only time will tell, no one is indispensable and no one is irreplaceable.

[sammiev]

Every bite into a rotten apple? All things sooner or later will have a green apple.

[ExSuSEusr]

Google armed with Android.

I see it every day, people are growing sick of Apple's proprietary-ism . Windows days are numbered... people are also catching on that Windows is the same ole crap from one version to another.

The reason I say Google is because I think the tablet is going to replace the laptop and with the tablets you have two main choice Apple and Honeycomb (Droid). M$ doesn't seems to have a big dog in this fight at this point. And, people are slowly catching on to how ef'ed up Apple is with their proprietary-ism and are slowly but surely trading their iSucks in for Droids.

Google is Skynet. :guitar:

[KiwiNZ]

Google armed with Android.

I see it every day, people are growing sick of Apple's proprietary-ism . Windows days are numbered... people are also catching on that Windows is the same ole crap from one version to another.

The reason I say Google is because I think the tablet is going to replace the laptop and with the tablets you have two main choice Apple and Honeycomb (Droid). M$ doesn't seems to have a big dog in this fight at this point. And, people are slowly catching on to how ef'ed up Apple is with their proprietary-ism and are slowly but surely trading their iSucks in for Droids.

Google is Skynet. :guitar:

Yeah I noticed that, they only sold 3 million in 4 days in limited markets :p

[dpny]

Apple's able to do what they do because they control the whole widget: the hardware and software are engineered to fit together precisely. No other company that I know of has such end-to-end control, so I don't see another company able to do what Apple can do.

That doesn't mean no one will come along to challenge Apple. It just means that if an Apple challenger appears, it probably won't look like Apple, but its own thing.

[ExSuSEusr]

Y'all are missing the point.

He isn't asking who is currently ruling the tech world - he/she is ask who could pose a threat to Apple.

Yes, we all know that right now Apple is King.... but he/she is asking who has the ability, the potential to dethrone Apple.

[KiwiNZ]

Y'all are missing the point.

He isn't asking who is currently ruling the tech world - he/she is ask who could pose a threat to Apple.

Yes, we all know that right now Apple is King.... but he/she is asking who has the ability, the potential to dethrone Apple.

My Crystal Ball has had a Kernel panic

[dpny]

Y'all are missing the point.

He isn't asking who is currently ruling the tech world - he/she is ask who could pose a threat to Apple.

Yes, we all know that right now Apple is King.... but he/she is asking who has the ability, the potential to dethrone Apple.

But he's using the same, tired, anecdotal things people have been saying about Apple for years. It's hard to argue 'people are getting tired of Apple' when Apple sold more iPads than HP did PCs last quarter.

[ExSuSEusr]

My Crystal Ball has had a Kernel panic


haha! Well, I am just sayin.... I think if any company has the potential to overthrow Apple it's Google. MS hasn't seemed to get into the tablet fight yet, so it's up to Google.

[whatthefunk]

Google armed with Android.

I see it every day, people are growing sick of Apple's proprietary-ism . Windows days are numbered... people are also catching on that Windows is the same ole crap from one version to another.

The reason I say Google is because I think the tablet is going to replace the laptop and with the tablets you have two main choice Apple and Honeycomb (Droid). M$ doesn't seems to have a big dog in this fight at this point. And, people are slowly catching on to how ef'ed up Apple is with their proprietary-ism and are slowly but surely trading their iSucks in for Droids.

Google is Skynet. :guitar:

I dont think your average computer user is even aware of the "proprietary-ism" of Apple. The hundreds of people packed into my local Apple store on a daily basis sure dont seem to notice or care....

As far as Google goes...I dont see them posing a huge threat to Apple simply because I dont think the tablet will replace the laptop. A tablet is completely useless for typing anything more than a facebook post. People have claimed that tablets will replace everything from the desktop to the laptop, from books to cellphones to the living room sofa. However, I have still not heard one single reason explaining why they are useful.

[KiwiNZ]

However, I have still not heard one single reason explaining why they are useful.

1.Ease of use on a Wheelchair
2.Ease of use on an Aircraft
3.Navigation/Chart plotter aboard a boat
4.ease of portability
5.ease of use in their ecosphere
6.simplicity
7.the myriad of inexpensive Apps

etc etc etc

Just a few off the top of my head

But you are right they are not a Laptop/Desktop replacement but they are a useful device in their own right and very successful.

[dpny]

Laptops are already replacing desktops: when you can get an i5 and 8GB of RAM in a mobile package, most users don't need anything more. In fact, an i% is massive overkill for most computing. As mobile hardware gets faster, the same thing will happen with laptops.

[wolfen69]

Yeah I noticed that, they only sold 3 million in 4 days in limited markets :p I guess apple makes one feel warm and fuzzy all over. That's cool if you're into it, I'm not against it, it's just not for me.

There's always going to be a certain number of people that like that kind of thing though. ):P

[wolfen69]

Laptops are already replacing desktops: when you can get an i5 and 8GB of RAM in a mobile package, most users don't need anything more. In fact, an i% is massive overkill for most computing. As mobile hardware gets faster, the same thing will happen with laptops.

I'll take it one step further. Cell "phones" are becoming quad core powerhouses that will do most everyday things very quickly. A lot of people will migrate to portable alternatives. This is just the beginning.

[dpny]

I'll take it one step further. Cell "phones" are becoming quad core powerhouses that will do most everyday things very quickly. A lot of people will migrate to portable alternatives. This is just the beginning.

I agree. My phone does everything I did with my laptop.

[asadmalik]

Google+Motorola+Android
I think this combination will blow the lid out of Apple in a few years.
Apple products are just too costly and i see no reason why i should spend so much money on a device that costs so much for its good looks.(plus a little bit functionality)

[wolfen69]

1.Ease of use on a Wheelchair
2.Ease of use on an Aircraft
3.Navigation/Chart plotter aboard a boat
4.ease of portability
5.ease of use in their ecosphere
6.simplicity
7.the myriad of inexpensive Apps

etc etc etc

Just a few off the top of my head

But you are right they are not a Laptop/Desktop replacement but they are a useful device in their own right and very successful.

sounds a like a personal thing.

[KiwiNZ]

sounds a like a personal thing. I thought you were above this.

The impressions of any product are generally formed from personal experience. Even Automobile reviewers will drive the car they reviewing.

[Paqman]

Not entirely correct

It is somewhat correct. The components in Apple gear aren't necessarily better than their competitors. For example the first batch of Macbooks offered with SSDs used the same awful Samsung drives that Dell were offering. At the time they were the worst-performing SSDs available, and I presume the reason they were used is the same reason Dell used them: that they were the only ones available in sufficient quantity.

While I agree that generally their gear is aimed at the luxury end of the market and thus normally of good quality, they are forced to source their parts through the same channels as everybody else, and do compromise on quality if they have to. They don't have access to any kind of "special sauce" that others don't.

[KiwiNZ]

It is somewhat correct. The components in Apple gear aren't necessarily better than their competitors. For example the first batch of Macbooks offered with SSDs used the same awful Samsung drives that Dell were offering. At the time they were the worst-performing SSDs available, and I presume the reason they were used is the same reason Dell used them: that they were the only ones available in sufficient quantity.

While I agree that generally their gear is aimed at the luxury end of the market and thus normally of good quality, they are forced to source their parts through the same channels as everybody else, and do compromise on quality if they have to. They don't have access to any kind of "special sauce" that others don't.

An Audi and Lada are essentially the similar as your example but they are by no means the same.

Design, specification, quality control etc are very important.

[Paqman]

Design, specification, quality control etc are very important.

Of course, but my point is that Apple don't hold a monopoly on any of that.

[DS McGuire]

Apple just sold 3 million iPad 3s in the past 4 days. So I would assume around 1 billion in profit.

What company can take on Apple in build quality and maybe even surpass them?

I do not think Samsung could.

When Nokia get a windows 8 tablet out then we will see a real iPad killer, samsung for me doesn't really have amazing bvuild quality and lookings at my Nokia E7 I can trust Nokia when it comes to build quality.

[kurt18947]

I'll take it one step further. Cell "phones" are becoming quad core powerhouses that will do most everyday things very quickly. A lot of people will migrate to portable alternatives. This is just the beginning.

I wonder if Motorola has the idea to extend/embrace (but not extinguish) the fondleslab. Something like their lapdock.

http://www.motorola.com/Consumers/US-EN/Consumer-Product-and-Services/Mobile+Phone+Accessories/Docking-Stations/Lapdock-100-US-EN

If something like this were to become ubiquitous, anyone needing to do more on their phone than a touch screen supported could find the nearest dock, plug in, do whatever, save, undock and go on their way. The docking station could not remember anything that was done on it and would have to be dumb enough or locked down enough that no one could install any sort of logging or capture software. The docking station would not have any connection to the outside world and could not store anything from any user.

Will Motorola be like Xerox PARC and the GUI? Time will tell.

[dpny]

When Nokia get a windows 8 tablet out then we will see a real iPad killer, samsung for me doesn't really have amazing bvuild quality and lookings at my Nokia E7 I can trust Nokia when it comes to build quality.

Rooting for Microsoft on a Linux forum? Never thought I'd see that.

[KiwiNZ]

Of course, but my point is that Apple don't hold a monopoly on any of that.

No they don't, they just do it better than most.

[mamamia88]

I think the obvious answers are google and amazon. If they release a 10" kindle fire it would be a serious competitor to the ipad overnight. Everyone in the world for the most part uses google products. If manufacturers can release a definitive android phone and make it abundantly clear that its a google prduct then watch out apple.

[dpny]

I think the obvious answers are google and amazon. If they release a 10" kindle fire it would be a serious competitor to the ipad overnight. Everyone in the world for the most part uses google products. If manufacturers can release a definitive android phone and make it abundantly clear that its a google prduct then watch out apple.

Amazon will never challenge Apple for business reasons: the way they make money is diametrically opposed to Apple. Apple is a high-margin retailer who uses software to move hardware. Amazon is a low-margin retailer who loses money on hardware to move electronic books, songs, and the like. Amazon has no interest in competing with Apple the hardware maker, as it's orthogonal to the way they make money. They do compete with the iTunes Music/Movie/TV store, but that's it.

Google can't compete with Apple for similar reasons: completely different business strategies.

[cotcot]

I do not think that apple is better. Otherwise they would not make a point of giving only 1 year guarantee in countries where 2 years is a legal obligation (with court cases as a consequence).

[nutpants]

Disney.
another company that produces products with almost no originally and massive lawyer support. and multitudes of loyal fans that have to have the new product with no idea why it is better or even different than what they have now.

Disney could take Apple in a brainwashing and pretty product biannual release schedule.

[neu5eeCh]

From what I've read, none of Jobs' creations, like the iPod or the iPad were his ideas - they were the result of his tweaking. The iPad, for example, was said to have been inspired by a nagging Microsoft engineer (at a wedding I think) who kept wanting Jobs to invest in a new Microsoft tablet concept -- a tablet that included a pen. Jobs apparently thought the pen was complete nonsense. No one would ever buy it. Instead, he decided to show Microsoft how it ought to be done. The penless tablet was born. The guy walked back to Apple and said: I want this. I don't care if you don't see a market. I want it. Make it. They will come.

Jobs was a visionary and a genius (and a jerk apparently). Without Jobs, Apple, in my opinion, is just another GM at the height of its bank account. It's only a matter of time. I give Apple another six to ten years before analysts start wondering whether Apple really has a future without Jobs. Mark my words. ;)

I don't think the company to overtake them will be Google. They really revealed their corporate culture when they released Chromebooks. They showed themselves to be a company that is overly conservative, cautious, if not timid, and lacking conviction. Unless something changes, Google will continue to ride the coat tails of the real risk takers.

I don't think we've heard of the company that can top Apple (it may not exist yet), but I expect it to appear within the next couple of decades.

I now, for my next trick, I will make my tea leaves look like the face of Jesus.

[KiwiNZ]

Disney.
another company that produces products with almost no originally and massive lawyer support. and multitudes of loyal fans that have to have the new product with no idea why it is better or even different than what they have now.

Disney could take Apple in a brainwashing and pretty product biannual release schedule.

That is incredibly insulting

[IWantFroyo]

Disney.
another company that produces products with almost no originally and massive lawyer support. and multitudes of loyal fans that have to have the new product with no idea why it is better or even different than what they have now.

Disney could take Apple in a brainwashing and pretty product biannual release schedule.

What? Apple, despite their setbacks, has more originality than most companies I've seen. You at least have to credit them with the mouse and popularizing touchscreen smart phones and tablets.
Probably a better question to ask is what large, successful company doesn't have strong lawyers?
Disney mainly sticks to movies, parks, and souvenir items. Maybe they're big, but not in the same field.

[zekopeko]

I do not think that apple is better. Otherwise they would not make a point of giving only 1 year guarantee in countries where 2 years is a legal obligation (with court cases as a consequence).

You are wrong.

The 2 year EU-mandated limited warranty applies to any product sold to a consumer. The thing that most people miss is that after 6 months after purchase the burden of proofing defect in the product is on the buyer not seller (Apple = seller).

The limited manufacture's warranty (1 year in Apple's case) is a separate warranty that might have some overlap to the EU-mandated warranty but it is entirely up to the manufacture if they want to offer it.
On top of that warranty Apple offers Applecare which extends the time and problems it covers.

So there is no way that Apple can simply decide not to offer the EU-mandated warranty. What they don't have to offer is the limited manufacture's warranty and Applecare.

Lets stick to the topic at hand.

[pommie]

The Samsung phone is beating iphone sales at over 3 to 1 in China.
http://www.bgr.com/2012/03/13/samsungs-smartphone-market-share-more-than-triple-apples-share-in-china/

Apple use Samsung components in their products, including the ipads display screen.
http://www.mobiledia.com/news/133072.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2012/03/15/apple-may-pay-billions-to-samsung-for-new-ipad/

So for every sale apple make, Samsung makes money, for every Samsung sold, apple get nothing.

So ignoring the legal battles between the two, considering Samsung get a cut of Apple sales and the massive potential sales in China (of which Samsung is winning hands down), Samsung could knock Apple off the top of the heap.

Cheers David

[rg4w]

From what I've read, none of Jobs' creations, like the iPod or the iPad were his ideas - they were the result of his tweaking.
Malcolm Gladwell's "The Tweaker" from The New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/14/111114fa_fact_gladwell

As for who will displace Apple?

Like Steve and Steve, and Bill and David before them, right now there are two kids in a garage somewhere, kids with a fresh view of things and an impatience with current products. We don't know their names yet but we will within just a few years, and what they make will change the industry...

[dpny]

So ignoring the legal battles between the two, considering Samsung get a cut of Apple sales and the massive potential sales in China (of which Samsung is winning hands down), Samsung could knock Apple off the top of the heap.

The question wasn't who will make more money. They question was who will take Apple's place of industrial design/profit margin.

[dpny]

Malcolm Gladwell's "The Tweaker" from The New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/14/111114fa_fact_gladwell

There are almost no "original" ideas: everyone is building one those who have come before. The WIMP interface which came together at Xerox PARC built on two decades of technical papers and Master and PhD theses, as well as years of experimenting. Unix came, eventually, from Multics, and on and on.

[pommie]

The question wasn't who will make more money. They question was who will take Apple's place of industrial design/profit margin.

Apple are using components, including the screens, that have been designed and engineered by other companies, as far as cosmetic design in concerned "star treck" was using pads (non functioning but we are talking design here) long before Apple 'designed' theirs.

Granted profit margins for Apple are good, as far as anyone outside of the board room knows, but companies have gone from 'good' to 'bust' in remarkable short periods, especially when they take on other 'Giants' in the law courts.

I am not knocking Apple, I own no Apple products but only because I cannot see value for money in them.

Cheers David

[KiwiNZ]

Apple are using components, including the screens, that have been designed and engineered by other companies, as far as cosmetic design in concerned "star treck" was using pads (non functioning but we are talking design here) long before Apple 'designed' theirs.

Granted profit margins for Apple are good, as far as anyone outside of the board room knows, but companies have gone from 'good' to 'bust' in remarkable short periods, especially when they take on other 'Giants' in the law courts.

I am not knocking Apple, I own no Apple products but only because I cannot see value for money in them.

Cheers David

A lot of Apple's components are designed by them and made under contract by others to Apple's specification. This allows for greater production efficiency and cost savings.

[dpny]

Apple are using components, including the screens, that have been designed and engineered by other companies, as far as cosmetic design in concerned "star treck" was using pads (non functioning but we are talking design here) long before Apple 'designed' theirs.

You're wrong: Apple designs and engineers all their products. With the exception of the things every computer maker shares--CPUs, GPUs, drives, memory--Apple doesn't use any off-the-shelf parts. They don't even use Intel's motherboards. The iPad's screens are Apple designed as well.

[pommie]

You're wrong: Apple designs and engineers all their products. With the exception of the things every computer maker shares--CPUs, GPUs, drives, memory--Apple doesn't use any off-the-shelf parts. They don't even use Intel's motherboards. The iPad's screens are Apple designed as well.

As I said before, the 'pad' with a touch screen, was used in sci-fi long before Apple 'designed' them, so in the case of the ipad they did not design, they copied, a flat oblong shape, even the a4 size personal black boards used in the 1800s and before, are the same shape.

Have a read, there are plenty of 'off the shelf' components in the ipad,
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPad-3-4G-Teardown/8277/1

Anyway, back on topic, if all these lawsuits go against Apple (doubtful) what will happen, Apple only make, sorry design and sell, personal electronic devices, no device market for Apple, no Apple, if they all go against Samsung, no pad and phone sales for Samsung, but they will still be in business supplying Apple components, and Samsung have other industries too.

From Wikipedia,

Notable Samsung industrial subsidiaries include
Samsung Electronics (the world's largest information technology company measured by 2010 revenues)
Samsung Heavy Industries (the world's second-largest shipbuilder measured by 2010 revenues)
Samsung Engineering and Samsung C&T (respectively the world's 35th- and 72nd-largest construction companies)
Other notable subsidiaries include Samsung Life Insurance (the world's 14th-largest insurance company)
Samsung Everland (the oldest theme park in South Korea)
Cheil Worldwide (the world's 19th-largest advertising agency measured by 2010 revenues)

Cheers David

Edit:- So Samsung would be a good contender to replace Apple in design and technology, as far as I am concerned the less said about Apples marketing and pricing the better.

[Mikeb85]

HTC already has the quality down, and at one point (briefly) had higher market share. They're making plenty of acquisitions and changes to improve user experience, they just need better marketing. They're the only ones with a chance in the next 5 years.

In 10 years though, Huawei will rule all.

[dpny]

As I said before, the 'pad' with a touch screen, was used in sci-fi long before Apple 'designed' them, so in the case of the ipad they did not design, they copied, a flat oblong shape, even the a4 size personal black boards used in the 1800s and before, are the same shape.

You seem to be conflating three arguments. First, as said, there are very few original ideas as all concepts build on what comes before.

Two, Apple did not merely slap together existing parts and put a logo on it. They designed and engineered the iPad. This much seems obvious.

Three, Samsung and Apple do different things and have very different corporate and revenue structures.

[aura7]

I think Motorola recently purchased by Google will give a run for your money .... but that would at least take an year to materialize.

[KiwiNZ]

As I said before, the 'pad' with a touch screen, was used in sci-fi long before Apple 'designed' them, so in the case of the ipad they did not design, they copied, a flat oblong shape, even the a4 size personal black boards used in the 1800s and before, are the same shape.

.

pssst *whisper mode on* they were theatrical props made of styrene etc, they didn't work

[Mikeb85]

1.Ease of use on a Wheelchair
2.Ease of use on an Aircraft
3.Navigation/Chart plotter aboard a boat
4.ease of portability
5.ease of use in their ecosphere
6.simplicity
7.the myriad of inexpensive Apps

etc etc etc

Just a few off the top of my head

Of course if you use them outside of said ecosphere, or you try to get it to interface with say, a car stereo, it's a massive headache.



But you are right they are not a Laptop/Desktop replacement but they are a useful device in their own right and very successful.

I always thought the point of these devices was to change the computing paradigm, and replace PCs? What good is a $700+ device that is neutered and unable to be used as a completely stand-alone device?

[Mikeb85]

You're wrong: Apple designs and engineers all their products. With the exception of the things every computer maker shares--CPUs, GPUs, drives, memory--Apple doesn't use any off-the-shelf parts. They don't even use Intel's motherboards. The iPad's screens are Apple designed as well.

If by Apple designed you mean they gave a specification to LG, Samsung and Sharp, and those companies actually engineered the display itself and built it...

No, they don't use Intel's motherboards, they probably use Asus', which makes alot of their PC - components, just like most of their mobile components are Samsung or LG (and now Sharp).

The supply chain in Asia is so robust, any enterprising entrepreneur with money can get 'custom' devices and components made for them in a very short amount of time. Apart from the physical appearance, Apple's only real 'design' is the software.

[KiwiNZ]

Of course if you use them outside of said ecosphere, or you try to get it to interface with say, a car stereo, it's a massive headache.



I always thought the point of these devices was to change the computing paradigm, and replace PCs? What good is a $700+ device that is neutered and unable to be used as a completely stand-alone device?

My iPad connected to all my vehicles.

Please show references to where Apple stated that the iPad will replace PC's

[Mikeb85]

My iPad connected to all my vehicles.

What kind of vehicle if I might ask? My 2011 Hyundai 'connects' to an iPod through the USB, but the file sorting winds up all messed up, and an iPhone doesn't work at all through the USB port in the car, so music has to be played over bluetooth. Kind of annoying not having decent control over my music files from the steering wheel controls.

[KiwiNZ]

What kind of vehicle if I might ask? My 2011 Hyundai 'connects' to an iPod through the USB, but the file sorting winds up all messed up, and an iPhone doesn't work at all through the USB port in the car, so music has to be played over bluetooth. Kind of annoying not having decent control over my music files from the steering wheel controls.

Audi S4 (2011)
BMW 320i (wifes)2011

Also my Toyota Landcruiser which I have just disposed of and currently considering replacements as I am down sizing the SUV.

[dpny]

If by Apple designed you mean they gave a specification to LG, Samsung and Sharp, and those companies actually engineered the display itself and built it...

No, Apple engineered it. As in designed it from scratch.


No, they don't use Intel's motherboards, they probably use Asus', which makes alot of their PC - components, just like most of their mobile components are Samsung or LG (and now Sharp).

No, it's an Apple motherboard: you won't find it anywhere else than Apple's machines. Same with the display in the iPad: it's Apple engineered. You won't see it in any other tablet. Notice the iPhone's retina display hasn't turned up in any other smart phones?


appearance, Apple's only real 'design' is the software.

Wrong.

[Paqman]

No, it's an Apple motherboard: you won't find it anywhere else than Apple's machines. Same with the display in the iPad: it's Apple engineered. You won't see it in any other tablet. Notice the iPhone's retina display hasn't turned up in any other smart phones?


I think you're showing a bit of naivete about how design and manufacturing operate. Apple do use a lot of off-the-shelf components, and they design some parts in-house. Having said that, it's not at all obvious how much of this they do themselves and how much they sub-contract. Generally with a lot of this stuff it's more efficient to sub-contract some or all of the process out. For example, things like antenna design and RF interference are often farmed out to specialists.

Much of what you see touted as "Apple hardware" isn't really that special. The "Apple" chips in Ipads are just a regular ARM chip wrapped up into a SOC by a third party. There are companies that specialise in this service, Apple will have simply given one of them a spec and had them made. My NAS at home has an ARM SOC in it. They're not special, despite all Steve Jobs' wibble about "custom silicon". Apple have no fabs of their own, they get their silicon from same places as everybody else.

As for those "retina" displays? Samsung. So again, Apple will have supplied Samsung with a spec to work to, and the display experts as Samsung will have made it happen.

Design is often just about coming up with a specification, which is then passed to somebody else to fabricate. Apple are constrained by the same realities that every other electronics designer has, and they generally solve the common problems the same way.

[dpny]

I think you're showing a bit of naivete about how design and manufacturing operate.

I'm not being naive: my dad's an engineer, and I know people who work at Apple. You're ill-informed: Apple actually designs and engineers many of their components in-house before handing off the manufacturing. If you want an idea, look at the their patents. Many of them are for hardware.

[Paqman]

I'm not being naive: my dad's an engineer, and I know people who work at Apple. You're ill-informed: Apple actually designs and engineers many of their components in-house before handing off the manufacturing. If you want an idea, look at the their patents. Many of them are for hardware.

If you read what I wrote, I agreed that they probably did a fair amount of the work in-house, but we're not privy to exactly how much they do themselves and how much is sub-contracted.

You can't design something in-house without including your partners in the design process, so it's not a simple matter of "handing off" once you're done. You have to involve them early in the process. Changes made towards the end of the design cycle are very expensive, so you need to be in good communication with your suppliers right from the start so you don't get nasty surprises about what they can and can't do. None of this stuff gets designed or built in isolation, companies rely on close working relationships to get it done.

Hardware patents are the product of an active R&D lab, that's to be expected from a player in Apple's position.

I'm not trying to say that Apple don't have any in-house engineering expertise, that would be ridiculous. I'm just saying that to suggest that the develop their products without assistance from folks outside Apple is also ridiculous.

[dpny]

I'm not trying to say that Apple don't have any in-house engineering expertise, that would be ridiculous. I'm just saying that to suggest that the develop their products without assistance from folks outside Apple is also ridiculous.

I never said they did it without assistance. But the assistance doesn't take precedence over Apple's engineering. It supplements it.

[KiwiNZ]

To answer the original question , "What company could top Apple in build quality and market share?"

I believe that if Samsung started innovating and stopped imitating that could well be the one. They produce good products.

[alexfish]

not sure if getting off target ::

thought the OP was on about


build quality

some hardcore and not so hard core links

http://www.extremetech.com/mobile/94064-how-qualcomms-snapdragon-arm-chips-are-unique

http://semiaccurate.com/2010/12/29/evidence-points-apple-designing-arm-laptops/

Raspberry Pi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=raspberry%20pi&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CFIQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRaspber ry_Pi&ei=5mVqT6flDIiu8gPLmrXyCA&usg=AFQjCNE7gszP1TCCO100TdYOVzpgGPOcbw&cad=rja)

all base on same:: ARM :: where it be the instruction set or the core

its what you build beyond is what counts,

Apple have the Knack of getting the build right ,, for the end user

had made previous statement on this forum ,, RE : Ipad and it's relative cost

what did I think of the cost of an Ipad ,, look it up , also look up the three links above , the third is a clue

But there again Apple have for generations , well almost , been a Trusted Brand,
rather than than been a Known Software House , but there again feel they Always excelled in that direction to , most of us older generations know the history of his counter part. that tells you a story.

Have fun

alexfish

[knight2000]

The Walkman... a product by Sony that dominated the field for a short while. Eventually the sheer number of alternative manufactures making similar products meant that Sony lost its massive market share in that field. In Business, especially technology, most big companies have their 15 minutes of fame. IBM, Sega, Nintendo, Sony, MySpace, etc have all been up there at the top for a while, but something better and fresher always comes along. People naturally get bored and start to desire something new. Eventually all big tech companies become old dinosaurs. You can only reinvent yourself so many times before it becomes old hat. Computing today is driven by fashion and fashions change.

My guess is that they will peak and then the market will become alot more fragmented, just like it did with the Walkman. Apples growth reminds me of the growth of MySpace in 2005. Too much too fast and then the bubble burst.

[KiwiNZ]

The Walkman... a product by Sony that dominated the field for a short while. Eventually the sheer number of alternative manufactures making similar products meant that Sony lost its massive market share in that field. In Business, especially technology, most big companies have their 15 minutes of fame. IBM, Sega, Nintendo, Sony, MySpace, etc have all been up there at the top for a while, but something better and fresher always comes along. People naturally get bored and start to desire something new. Eventually all big tech companies become old dinosaurs. You can only reinvent yourself so many times before it becomes old hat. Computing today is driven by fashion and fashions change.

My guess is that they will peak and then the market will become alot more fragmented, just like it did with the Walkman. Apples growth reminds me of the growth of MySpace in 2005. Too much too fast and then the bubble burst.

Growth rate too fast ????????????

Apple has been steadily growing since the return of the late Steve Jobs in 1997. The Apple leadership realise that nothing is forever and that the only way to keep progressing is to keep innovating that is why they have staff to the caliber of Jonathan Ive and Scott Forstall etc.

[pommie]

pssst *whisper mode on* they were theatrical props made of styrene etc, they didn't work
*smile mode on*, I was referring to the cosmetic design, it's looks, as there was a reference to Apple designing the all of the ipad, including its looks as if nobody had used a flat oblong shape before.

/me leaves smile mode on :)

Cheers David

[SemiExpert]

Anyone here think that Windows 8 phones and tablets are going to take off in a big way next year? Anyone? What about ultrabooks? The next big thing? Please, stop laughing. The big question for 2012, and even 2013, is whether Apple can convert those huge iOS device sales into huge OS X sales. The upcoming Macbook Pro will be the first big test.

[chipbuster]

I honestly think ASUS is starting to get there. They've just moved into the mainstream electronics space, and they're doing a killer job with tablets and laptops.

Of course, I said the same thing about Lenovo a few years back, and look where they ended up......

[KiwiNZ]

Anyone here think that Windows 8 phones and tablets are going to take off in a big way next year? Anyone? What about ultrabooks? The next big thing? Please, stop laughing. The big question for 2012, and even 2013, is whether Apple can convert those huge iOS device sales into huge OS X sales. The upcoming Macbook Pro will be the first big test.

I believe Microsoft will do very well with Windows 8 especially on PC/Laptop segment. As for the mobile market I believe the phones will find accord with those wishing continuity with their other devices but the Windows 8 phones will not have the impact sufficient to affect in any large degree the market share of iPhone and Android.

Their tablet which will sadly come from HP, Dell, Lenovo to the most will not be a run away success.

[SemiExpert]

The Walkman... a product by Sony that dominated the field for a short while.

Actually, Sony didn't really lose out on the portable media player market until the iPod era. They never really grasped the concept of a MP3 player, and now that the world has moved on to smartphones, Sony is nowhere to be seen. Apple probably isn't the next Sony, since Apple was quick to move on the next big thing after the iPod, namely the iPhone, then the iPad.....the hits just keep on coming. And a lot of Apple products that weren't initial hits, like the Macbook Air, have been retained and eventually become hot ticket items. Maybe the next big thing is an Apple branded television. Does it make sense to pay $1,500 for a 42 inch TV? This is the same company that sells a $1,000 27 inch monitor, so yes, it probably will sell.

[Mikeb85]

Anyone here think that Windows 8 phones and tablets are going to take off in a big way next year? Anyone? What about ultrabooks? The next big thing? Please, stop laughing. The big question for 2012, and even 2013, is whether Apple can convert those huge iOS device sales into huge OS X sales. The upcoming Macbook Pro will be the first big test.

Windows 8 is dead in the water. The desktop experience with metro isn't very good, which is unfortunate, because I'm running Windows 8 in desktop mode mostly and it's a good, stable, fast OS so far.

I think most users are going to expect Windows 8 ARM devices to run legacy x86 software, which they won't be able to, and people will be disappointed.

[Mikeb85]

No, Apple engineered it. As in designed it from scratch.

No they didn't. IPS LCD technology was developped by Hitachi in the 90's, and later expanded by LG and Samsung. There is no information to suggest that Apple pioneered any of the technology in them.



No, it's an Apple motherboard: you won't find it anywhere else than Apple's machines. Same with the display in the iPad: it's Apple engineered. You won't see it in any other tablet. Notice the iPhone's retina display hasn't turned up in any other smart phones?

The iPhone's retina display hasn't turned up in other phones because they signed an exclusive contract with LG for 960x640 3.5" IPS LCD displays. LG has a 330 dpi 1280x720 IPS LCD screen on the Optimus LTE, and HTC has an even higher dpi LCD screen (made by Sony I believe) on the Rezound. It has nothing to do with Apple 'designing' the technology (because they didn't), but the terms of the contracts. Besides, most Android phones/tablets use different aspect ratios.

As for the 'Apple motherboard', again, Apple designs the layout, sources the components (none of which are entirely exclusive), and then signs exclusive supplier deals to procure it. It's still made by Asus (for their computers) and Samsung for mobile devices.

[KiwiNZ]

Windows 8 is dead in the water. The desktop experience with metro isn't very good, which is unfortunate, because I'm running Windows 8 in desktop mode mostly and it's a good, stable, fast OS so far.

I think most users are going to expect Windows 8 ARM devices to run legacy x86 software, which they won't be able to, and people will be disappointed.

Dead in the water ? what a bazaar statement, it is only in Consumer preview stage. I would suggest you wait until circa December 2013 before making such wild assertions.

[knight2000]

Asus and Samsung both have superior products. As people start to realise that the Apple bubble will burst. That lastst few iterations of apple products reek of a companies that quite simply have run out of ideas. Apple are too dependent on technology by others. At the end of the day they are just another company selling products that at made in chhina.

People who talk about 'build quality's seem to be selectively ignoring the major hardware and software issues that have dogged apple products for years. Wifi notvworking, alarm clocks not going off properly, batteries exploding, phones breaking after a small drop, signal problems, ipads overheating. The list goes on and on. This build quality stuff is nonsense. Many people I know have had to return defective apple products.

[alexfish]

Windows 8 is dead in the water. The desktop experience with metro isn't very good, which is unfortunate, because I'm running Windows 8 in desktop mode mostly and it's a good, stable, fast OS so far.

I think most users are going to expect Windows 8 ARM devices to run legacy x86 software, which they won't be able to, and people will be disappointed.
Doubt If your statement is correct

To make a jump from one platform to the next most companies make a cross compiler , that is not a hard thing to do , that is now happening with Linux.

The only Stumbling block will be the Methodology of how Microsoft implement there Licensing for Monetary gain re the software or apps if you want to name it that way, and of how their policies have a tendency to "shot them selves in the foot".

Look through my previous post and the three links , you will find how
Apple Achieved this, as regards the software : RE apps

MS. they dabbled into the PC market with the asus and the express gate (Linux), Joe soap had the notion that the software had to be installed on windows , True in one sense but not a difficult one to crack.

Now they want motherboards with Windows only. That will be another Shot in the foot.

Microsoft policies have fooled the world for so long it is Unbelievable

But Now the world is Wakening up , Suggest You all start Googling to
see Where Linux is Heading as regards these devices , and of How Apple are at the Forefront at producing the Complete Bit

Steve Jobs Was an Inventor and more.

I have one Thing to say about Microsoft in that area. ""

[KiwiNZ]

Asus and Samsung both have superior products. As people start to realise that the Apple bubble will burst. That lastst few iterations of apple products reek of a companies that quite simply have run out of ideas. Apple are too dependent on technology by others. At the end of the day they are just another company selling products that at made in chhina.

People who talk about 'build quality's seem to be selectively ignoring the major hardware and software issues that have dogged apple products for years. Wifi notvworking, alarm clocks not going off properly, batteries exploding, phones breaking after a small drop, signal problems, ipads overheating. This build quality sruff is nonsense.

Links please for citation

[Off Topic]

If Disney partnered with Amazon to produce a 10" tablet, Apple would get outpaced in the consumer market.

There are more Disney fans then Apple hipsters.

ETA: If Disney partnered with any tablet company they could smack Apple in the pee pee.

[knight2000]

My citatation? Google. Many of the build quality issues are well known. Especially/ the exploding ipods, signal issues, alarm clock issues,overheating ipads, poor battery life in phones, wifi issues etc. Google any of those issues and its quite clear that the build quality isn't always as good as people make out out to be. One thing is consistent though, apple always deny the fault and then end up eating their own words when the victims of faulty products start coming forward online. By that time they've already shipped many faulty products. You're holding it wrong etc.

People are starting to catch onto that, especially people who paid big bucks and ended up with a faulty product.

[zekopeko]

I think you're showing a bit of naivete about how design and manufacturing operate. Apple do use a lot of off-the-shelf components, and they design some parts in-house. Having said that, it's not at all obvious how much of this they do themselves and how much they sub-contract. Generally with a lot of this stuff it's more efficient to sub-contract some or all of the process out. For example, things like antenna design and RF interference are often farmed out to specialists.

I think you are undervaluing Apple's involvement in designing their hardware. They might be using technology developed by others but so do other companies.

You are also wrong on the antenna design and RF interference. All of that is done in-house. They have their own team for that and their own testing and design facilities.


Much of what you see touted as "Apple hardware" isn't really that special. The "Apple" chips in Ipads are just a regular ARM chip wrapped up into a SOC by a third party. There are companies that specialise in this service, Apple will have simply given one of them a spec and had them made. My NAS at home has an ARM SOC in it. They're not special, despite all Steve Jobs' wibble about "custom silicon". Apple have no fabs of their own, they get their silicon from same places as everybody else.

Apple designs their own ARM chips. They licence the ARM architecture from ARM company and create the SoC in-house using their own stuff. They bought two companies for this specific purpose.

AMD does the same. They have a licence from Intel for x86 architecture but would you say that their chips aren't their own for that reason?


for those "retina" displays? Samsung. So again, Apple will have supplied Samsung with a spec to work to, and the display experts as Samsung will have made it happen.

Unlikely that Apple's involvement is limited to "we need a X time Y LCD panel; make it so". There are reports that the new iPad Retina screen had active involvement from Apple engineers in making it reality. I even read reports on Apple engineers having patents on essential technology in the new screens.


is often just about coming up with a specification, which is then passed to somebody else to fabricate. Apple are constrained by the same realities that every other electronics designer has, and they generally solve the common problems the same way.

Even if we are to accept your interpretation Apple is still to be lauded for their accomplishments. Apple's biggest gift to consumers is that they make cutting edge technology affordable to consumers. Nobody was talking about Retina-class displays before Apple debuted their own in iPhone 4. Now it's expected from every high end phone.

[whatthefunk]

If Disney partnered with Amazon to produce a 10" tablet, Apple would get outpaced in the consumer market.

There are more Disney fans then Apple hipsters.

ETA: If Disney partnered with any tablet company they could smack Apple in the pee pee.

If Coke partnered with Goldman Sachs and they partnered with Johnson and Johnson and the three of them partnered with Lady Gaga, Apple would REALLY be in trouble. However, that is not ever going to happen (at least lest hope not...).

[Mikeb85]

Links please for citation

Do you live in a bubble?

I don't know about some of the issues like iPhones exploding, but a few years ago, with the iPhone 3G, the alarm clock issue was very widespread, it was a software flaw that affected me too (and all my coworkers with iPhones), to the point I couldn't use my phone alarm at all. It also had major connectivity issues (which is 100% absent on my HTC phone despite being with the same telecom), which is again widespread enough that you can simply Google it. And then there was the iOS 4 fiasco, where upgrading basically rendered an iPhone 3G completely useless (even though it was a 'recommended' upgrade)...

iPads overheating is the newest 'issue', it's all over blogs and computer news sites. My friend's 4S also overheats excessively (I thought my HTC with aluminum case got hot until I held that thing), and the Siri function is completely useless in some countries. Battery issues I wouldn't blame on Apple though, all high powered phones have them, although Apple likes to pretend it doesn't happen to them too.

[Mikeb85]

If Disney partnered with Amazon to produce a 10" tablet, Apple would get outpaced in the consumer market.

There are more Disney fans then Apple hipsters.

ETA: If Disney partnered with any tablet company they could smack Apple in the pee pee.

Umm, no.

Android tablets don't sell because they make 5 inch Android phones. Why have 2 devices when you can have 1 that does both?

[dpny]

No they didn't. IPS LCD technology was developped by Hitachi in the 90's, and later expanded by LG and Samsung. There is no information to suggest that Apple pioneered any of the technology in them.

I didn't say pioneered: I said they engineered/designed it. There's a difference.



It has nothing to do with Apple 'designing' the technology (because they didn't), but the terms of the contracts.

You're making a leap: I didn't say Apple came up with the tech. I said they designed and engineered the technology. They didn't just take an existing screen and throw an Apple logo in it.

[dpny]

Umm, no.

Android tablets don't sell because they make 5 inch Android phones. Why have 2 devices when you can have 1 that does both?

The only Android tablets which sell in any number are the Kindles and Nook. Android tablets don't sell because the tablet market is an entirely different beast than the phone market.

[dpny]

If Disney partnered with Amazon to produce a 10" tablet, Apple would get outpaced in the consumer market.

There are more Disney fans then Apple hipsters.

ETA: If Disney partnered with any tablet company they could smack Apple in the pee pee.

You do know that Disney and Apple already partner, right?

[rg4w]

Apple has been steadily growing since the return of the late Steve Jobs in 1997. The Apple leadership realise that nothing is forever and that the only way to keep progressing is to keep innovating that is why they have staff to the caliber of Jonathan Ive and Scott Forstall etc.
Indeed, if it wasn't for Forstall's willingness to argue with Steve to allow third-party apps for iOS (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/10/13/ios_chief_scott_forstall_profiled_as_a_maddeningly _political_mini_steve_jobs.html) or Ive's ideas (many of which Jobs took credit for) (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20124720-37/jonathan-ive-steve-jobs-stole-my-ideas/), Apple wouldn't be where it is today.

But respectfully, I think it would be naive to assume it'll last forever. Nothing does. Just as Jobs was inspired by Bill Hewlett and went on to best him, right now there's some young visionary inspired by Apple but seeing an opportunity to go further than Apple will, to move things in an entirely new direction.

I'd guess it'll be about three or four years for this new player to become evident.


On a personal note, KiwiNZ, I share much of your admiration for Apple so I wonder: which do you use more, OS X or Ubuntu? My own time is pretty much split at about 40% Ubuntu, 40% Mac, and 20% Windows (I'm an xplat dev).

[rg4w]

People who talk about 'build quality's seem to be selectively ignoring the major hardware and software issues that have dogged apple products for years.
I've approved the sale of more Macs over my 25 years with the platform than most folks will ever acquire, so while my experience is anecdotal it's not trivial.

A majority of the Macs I've had have needed repairs at some point, about half within the three-year AppleCare period (which I always get and always advise my clients to get), and about half outside of that so we had to cover those costs ourselves.

Somewhere between a fourth and a third of all Macs and other Apple products I've had have been subject to recall, either for specific components like the numerous battery recalla, or something that requires sending the machine in, like the infamous "Wall Street" laptop hinge, the 17" AV monitor recall, ATI and NVidia issues on the mobo, and in the olden days of the B&W upright Macs the power supply was notorious for failure.

My last MacBook Pro had its screen replaced, along with its motherboard, and two of the three batteries I've had for it expanded toward the end of their life cycle, risking damage to the trackpad (the "genius" at the Apple store says the expanding nature of old batteries is "normal and to be expected", but it's potentially very damaging and I've never seen it with my Dells or HPs).

A stroll through the Apple support forums confirms that I'm not alone with these issues.

Still, on the whole I find Apple products more or less on par in terms of overall quality with other vendors. Apple has excellent design, so while my Macs tend to need more repair than my Dells (and cost more than twice as much), they're a pleasure to use and I consider it part of the tradeoff for the design quality that I've been happy to pay for.

Given the number of recalls and other quality issues for such a relatively small number of products, I think the reason Apple scores #1 in customer satisfaction year after year has less to do with build quality per se than with the quality of the design and the "consistency principle":

The human psyche is driven by a need for us to appear consistent to our peers. This deep-seated need plays out in a million ways throughout the day, including our purchases.

When we pay a lot for hardware, we're more inclined to be forgiving of it than demanding, ironically enough, because we want to be able to justify the expense to ourselves and our peers, to appear consistent with our decision to buy.

Jobs understood this, and hinted at the importance of price positioning long before he returned to Apple, back in the mid-90s when he said that he had a plan to turn Apple around. Part of that plan was to trim to produce line, but the other part was to stop playing the race-to-the-bottom game that was miring the competition in their price wars, positioning Apple as a better alternative and therefore making it immune to the downward pressure on prices that keep PC vendor margins so slim.

Given the central role of the consistency principle, if Macs were priced like PCs I'd wager their customer satisfaction ratings would be closer to average.

Again, this isn't to say that they make bad stuff. Far from it. But they're not magic unicorns, and everything has a failure rate, even Apple products.

[Off Topic]

If Coke partnered with Goldman Sachs and they partnered with Johnson and Johnson and the three of them partnered with Lady Gaga, Apple would REALLY be in trouble. However, that is not ever going to happen (at least lest hope not...).

And if Pepsi partnered with Charles Schwab partnered with Pfizer and they resurrected Michael Jackson, Apple fans will still buy everything Apple branded because it branded with an Apple.


Umm, no.

Android tablets don't sell because they make 5 inch Android phones. Why have 2 devices when you can have 1 that does both?

So why do iPhone owners go out of their way to own an iPhone and an iPad and let everybody know that they own them?


You do know that Disney and Apple already partner, right?

You do know that Disney is partnered with Microsoft?

[aysiu]

Somewhere between a fourth and a third of all Macs and other Apple products I've had have been subject to recall, either for specific components like the numerous battery recalla, or something that requires sending the machine in, like the infamous "Wall Street" laptop hinge, the 17" AV monitor recall, ATI and NVidia issues on the mobo, and in the olden days of the B&W upright Macs the power supply was notorious for failure.

My last MacBook Pro had its screen replaced, along with its motherboard, and two of the three batteries I've had for it expanded toward the end of their life cycle, risking damage to the trackpad (the "genius" at the Apple store says the expanding nature of old batteries is "normal and to be expected", but it's potentially very damaging and I've never seen it with my Dells or HPs).

A stroll through the Apple support forums confirms that I'm not alone with these issues. I've had two Macbook Pros. My wife has a Macbook Pro also. We have an Apple Cinema Display and an iPad. My wife has an iPhone. I have had two iPods. She's also had two iPods. In addition, we've also had various non-Apple gadgets and computers from Dell, eMachines, HP, Cowon, Sandisk, Samsung, HTC, etc.

I would say, based on our experiences and those of our friends, that Apple products fail or suffer physical damage just as much if not moreso than non-Apple products, but I tend to favor Apple products now (with the exception of my Android phone) because of the Apple customer service. When my wife's battery had a recall, Apple just shipped her a new battery. No fuss. When my Macbook Pro's graphics card failed, I took it to the Apple store and even though my warranty expired and I didn't have Apple Care on it, they replaced it for free and within a short period of time (I think it was literally one day... maybe two days).

In addition to our experiences with Apple customer service, I've heard similar stories from friends. That service counts for a lot as far as customer loyalty.

I'd heard many people on these forums rave about Cowon players. I bought one and within a few weeks the screen was all messed up (I swear I didn't do anything unusual to it). I sent it in to Cowon, and they wanted to charge me more than half the price of the player in order to replace the screen, even though theoretically it was under warranty. What a crock! After that I just bought Sansa Clip instead, which has lasted me years.

[Mikeb85]

You're making a leap: I didn't say Apple came up with the tech. I said they designed and engineered the technology. They didn't just take an existing screen and throw an Apple logo in it.

So what about it did they 'engineer'? Do you know what engineering entails?

LG has been producing IPS LCD for quite awhile, and companies have been experimenting with high dpi displays before Steve jobs ever coined the term 'retina display'. So apart from going to LG and saying 'we want a high dpi IPS LCD screen with this resolution', what did Apple engineer?

The only bits Apple actually 'engineers' is that they come up with the specs they want, they design the SoC (with components that are freely available BTW), and they make sure their iOS drivers and everything work well together. And then the Asian supply chain makes it happen.

Now I'm not saying that what they build isn't high quality or a great accomplishment, but the 'Apple magic' is more slight of hand...

[KiwiNZ]

Indeed, if it wasn't for Forstall's willingness to argue with Steve to allow third-party apps for iOS (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/10/13/ios_chief_scott_forstall_profiled_as_a_maddeningly _political_mini_steve_jobs.html) or Ive's ideas (many of which Jobs took credit for) (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20124720-37/jonathan-ive-steve-jobs-stole-my-ideas/), Apple wouldn't be where it is today.

But respectfully, I think it would be naive to assume it'll last forever. Nothing does. Just as Jobs was inspired by Bill Hewlett and went on to best him, right now there's some young visionary inspired by Apple but seeing an opportunity to go further than Apple will, to move things in an entirely new direction.

I'd guess it'll be about three or four years for this new player to become evident.


On a personal note, KiwiNZ, I share much of your admiration for Apple so I wonder: which do you use more, OS X or Ubuntu? My own time is pretty much split at about 40% Ubuntu, 40% Mac, and 20% Windows (I'm an xplat dev).

I wouldn't say I admire Apple products anymore than other products I use, e.g IBM, Cisco, Lenovo, Microsoft, ubuntu, Oracle, Sony etc etc.

What I dislike is the anti Apple FUD that is so present in this thread and other similar threads.

[KiwiNZ]

Do you live in a bubble?

I don't know about some of the issues like iPhones exploding, but a few years ago, with the iPhone 3G, the alarm clock issue was very widespread, it was a software flaw that affected me too (and all my coworkers with iPhones), to the point I couldn't use my phone alarm at all. It also had major connectivity issues (which is 100% absent on my HTC phone despite being with the same telecom), which is again widespread enough that you can simply Google it. And then there was the iOS 4 fiasco, where upgrading basically rendered an iPhone 3G completely useless (even though it was a 'recommended' upgrade)...

iPads overheating is the newest 'issue', it's all over blogs and computer news sites. My friend's 4S also overheats excessively (I thought my HTC with aluminum case got hot until I held that thing), and the Siri function is completely useless in some countries. Battery issues I wouldn't blame on Apple though, all high powered phones have them, although Apple likes to pretend it doesn't happen to them too.

No

I believe Industry fact not Blog fantasy.

[Paqman]

No

I believe Industry fact not Blog fantasy.

I'm genuinely surprised at this response. Most of what he's talking about was well-reported on in tech news channels.

Friends of mine also reported the alarm problem (http://www.macworld.com/article/1156793/ios_alarm.html), and the antenna issues (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4389) were widely reported on in the media ("antennagate", lol). A quick Google will provide you with FLIR images of the extra heat of the new Ipads (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2012/03/third-gen-ipad-operating-well-within-our-thermal-specifications-says-apple.ars) (not that I think it's a major issue), and Siri genuinely doesn't work properly in some countries (eg: the UK (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/02/asa_ruling_siri_uk/)).

The IOS4/3GS one is new to me, so I can't comment on that. As for "phones exploding", you occasionally get that with defective batteries in any device, the media just love to report on a small handful out of millions of devices dying spectacularly because, well, they're like that.

Apple products break or suffer from design flaws just like every other manufacturer. It's suggesting otherwise that risks heading into the realm of "fantasy".

[KiwiNZ]

I'm genuinely surprised at this response. Most of what he's talking about was well-reported on in tech news channels.

Friends of mine also reported the alarm problem (http://www.macworld.com/article/1156793/ios_alarm.html), and the antenna issues (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4389) were widely reported on in the media ("antennagate", lol). A quick Google will provide you with FLIR images of the extra heat of the new Ipads (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2012/03/third-gen-ipad-operating-well-within-our-thermal-specifications-says-apple.ars) (not that I think it's a major issue), and Siri genuinely doesn't work properly in some countries (eg: the UK (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/02/asa_ruling_siri_uk/)).

The IOS4/3GS one is new to me, so I can't comment on that. As for "phones exploding", you occasionally get that with defective batteries in any device, the media just love to report on a small handful out of millions of devices dying spectacularly because, well, they're like that.

Apple products break or suffer from design flaws just like every other manufacturer. It's suggesting otherwise that risks heading into the realm of "fantasy".

What is reported by "tech news channels" or pseudo journalism is most often divorced from reality. They are 95% entertainment/fantasy. Most of them are Blogs otherwise disguised.

Industry insider news and real life experience is more accurate. But that is less dramatic.

[knight2000]

Sometimes widely known facts are hard to swallow, especially when you are a fan of a company. I guess its like when a child behaves badly in class and the parent says "my son is an angel, he would never do anything bad". My point is that sometimes people let their affections cloud their judgement, sometimes to a point where they are in complete denial of the facts. I've been studying the psychology of technology affection for a few years and see this kind of thing quite often. What you get are people who are absolutely fanatical about something. Its the result of very good marketing, but I'm not convinced that is sustainable in a world that is so fragmented and moving so quickly. The facts are there for everyone to see the and the responses of the fans also tell a story. Its like a salesman trying to sell me a faulty car because he loves it. How you interpret that story is up to you though.

[KiwiNZ]

Sometimes widely known facts are hard to swallow, especially when you are a fan of a company. I guess its like when a child behaves badly in class and the parent says "my son is an angel, he would never do anything bad". My point is that sometimes people let their affections cloud their judgement, sometimes to a point where they are in complete denial of the facts. I've been studying the psychology of technology affection for a few years and see this kind of thing quite often. What you get are people who are absolutely fanatical about something. Its the result of very good marketing, but I'm not convinced that is sustainable in a world that is so fragmented and moving so quickly.

I am OS/Software agnostic
I am Hardware brand agnostic

What I am is a hater of BS and FUD
What I have is years of industry experience as does my wife and several family members.

[KiwiNZ]

In the words of these guys........ I'm out

[dpny]

So what about it did they 'engineer'? Do you know what engineering entails?

Consider that John Zhong, who holds the key patent which makes SHA possible, is Apple's Senior Manager for Displays, I'd guess quite a bit.

If you're curious about more, you can look through Apple's hardware patents.

Yes, Apple works with the same third-party manufacturers as the rest of the computing world. But Apple doesn't just take an existing product, modify it and slap their logo on it. As I've said, the do a lot of their own engineering.

[Mikeb85]

What is reported by "tech news channels" or pseudo journalism is most often divorced from reality. They are 95% entertainment/fantasy. Most of them are Blogs otherwise disguised.

Industry insider news and real life experience is more accurate. But that is less dramatic.

I'm talking about my personal experience using an iPhone 3G. iOS 4 absolutely did cripple these things, any Google search will bring about any number of hits because the 3G was plain and simply not powerful enough to run that OS (by contrast the 3GS runs it just fine). And the alarm clock thing affected many, many people.

And it's industry FACT that their 'Siri' function cannot do location searched in many countries because they're using a search engine that doesn't have that ability just because they want to spite Google. That's why it's in a perpetual BETA state.

[Mikeb85]

I'm genuinely surprised at this response. Most of what he's talking about was well-reported on in tech news channels.

Friends of mine also reported the alarm problem (http://www.macworld.com/article/1156793/ios_alarm.html), and the antenna issues (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4389) were widely reported on in the media ("antennagate", lol). A quick Google will provide you with FLIR images of the extra heat of the new Ipads (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2012/03/third-gen-ipad-operating-well-within-our-thermal-specifications-says-apple.ars) (not that I think it's a major issue), and Siri genuinely doesn't work properly in some countries (eg: the UK (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/02/asa_ruling_siri_uk/))

The iPads and 4S models running hot isn't a huge deal IMO, other high powered phones do too, it's just annoying how some people pretend these things don't affect Apple.



The IOS4/3GS one is new to me, so I can't comment on that. As for "phones exploding", you occasionally get that with defective batteries in any device, the media just love to report on a small handful out of millions of devices dying spectacularly because, well, they're like that.

It's the 3G (and original) which can't run iOS 4 properly. The 3GS runs iOS up to the current release fine.



Apple products break or suffer from design flaws just like every other manufacturer. It's suggesting otherwise that risks heading into the realm of "fantasy".

Absolutely. And of course I wouldn't suggest that Apple isn't one of the better ones (I'd personally put them above Samsung and Motorola, and below HTC).

[alexfish]

Thoughts : Just for reading ..Where some of this is Heading,

http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/customrel.do?easyirid=A0D622CE9F579F09&version=live&prid=819304&releasejsp=release_157

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA3MjQ

look for in links:

play games on their tablet or super phone, or connect to big screen HDTVs for a truly immersivealso look at,
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/tv

Also of Note
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/19/new-ipad-graphics-and-processor-benchmarks-ipad-2-nvidia-tegra-3/

Although there have been previous threads on this Forum about the Ubuntu TV

Yet.
Still have Not seen a Complete post relating to:

What company could top Apple in build quality and market share?

[blueturtl]

HTC.

They have the build quality and design aspects nailed. They only fall behind Apple in marketing.

[knight2000]

We already proved that build quality is already not the best. As for market share, I believe companies like HTC, Samsung and Amazon will chip away at the market share. Expect alot of advertising, especially from Amazon this Christmas. Remember, Amazon already dominate the e-reader industry and that proves they are very good at marketing. Kindle 1 is a gradual build up, k2 will probably get alot more marketting because the platform is maturing and people are starting to see chinks in apples armour, ie. the ever growing list of faults in i-products. The average Joe is becoming more aware that there are better products out there.