Apple in China

[vasa1]

'This American Life' disowns Apple-bashing blockbuster (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/16/this_american_life_disowns_mike_daisey/)

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From: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory

A lifelong Apple superfan, Daisey sees some photos online from the inside of a factory that makes iPhones, starts to wonder about the people working there, and flies to China to meet them.

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From: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/460/retraction

Ira also talks with Mike Daisey about why he misled This American Life during the fact-checking process. And we end the show separating fact from fiction, when it comes to Apple's manufacturing practices in China.

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[BeRoot ReBoot]

I doubt it. They probably just recoiled in horror after receiving a letter from Apple's pack of rabid lawyers.

[MisterGaribaldi]

Let's cut through the crap here. What we're really talking about is Foxconn, and in general all other similar China- and asian-based companies who do the manufacturing for -- let's be honest -- the entire technology industry. And Foxconn is merely typical of companies in China and the asian continent, so why simply blame one company amongst hundreds?

Oh, that's right: because blaming Apple is sexy. Puh-leeze...

In fact, Foxconn is actually a lot better of a company to work for than the sweatshops in Bangladesh. Or, for that matter, a lot of the manufacturing sweatshops right here in the U.S. back at the last turn-of-the-century. That's not to say they should be lauded for their excellent sense of the value of human life, but c'mon... this whole thing is getting completely out of hand.

And, at least Apple is trying to get something done about this problem, which is a darned sight more than the Chinese government has ever bothered for their own people. Tiananmen Square, anyone?

[synaptix]

In fact, Foxconn is actually a lot better of a company to work for

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/foxc-j03.shtml

[BeRoot ReBoot]

And, at least Apple is trying to get something done about this problem

Only after public outrage about it. They didn't seem bothered before.

[MisterGaribaldi]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/foxc-j03.shtml

Yes, exactly. Now given we're the ones demanding all these products they're engaged in said conditions to make, who exactly all is to blame here? Do we see the public (both individuals and businesses) demanding humane production processes and total boycotts of the companies involved?

The next time someone here thinks about getting a computer for the lowest price to turn into an Ubuntu desktop, tablet, or server, let them remember their purchase may have been part of the chain of events leading to "the straw that broke the camel's back" for yet another Foxconn worker.

[chipbuster]

Yes, exactly. Now given we're the ones demanding all these products they're engaged in said conditions to make, who exactly all is to blame here? Do we see the public (both individuals and businesses) demanding humane production processes and total boycotts of the companies involved?

The next time someone here thinks about getting a computer for the lowest price to turn into an Ubuntu desktop, tablet, or server, let them remember their purchase may have been part of the chain of events leading to "the straw that broke the camel's back" for yet another Foxconn worker.



We've do a pretty good job of deluding ourselves sometimes. I'm not sure if anyone is unaware that Apple devices are made in China by people with terrible working conditions and low pay. We just manage to forget about that when faced with the shiniest new product. Then we act all surprised and outraged when someone actually has the gall to point that out to us.

@OP, there are some subtle semantics at play here. Let's say there's a company that feeds children to crocodiles, but I report that they feed children to bears. Are my facts completely wrong? Yes. Can someone threaten me with a lawsuit because of it? Probably.

Does it mean that this company is rosy? Not in the slightest.

I haven't personally seen what's going on at Foxconn, but any company who's idea of "solution to mass employee suicide" is "put nets on the windows so they can't jump out" is probably not too concerned with the welfare of their workers.

[MisterGaribaldi]

I haven't personally seen what's going on at Foxconn, but any company who's idea of "solution to mass employee suicide" is "put nets on the windows so they can't jump out" is probably not too concerned with the welfare of their workers.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[arnab_das]

i think the fact is, people in developing countries are eager to get a job and earn a decent living for themselves. also, there is an abundance of labour. as a result, proper working conditions/workers' rights arent really their biggest concern. companies therefore have the opportunity to exploit these people.

[3rdalbum]

It has been noted that conditions at a factory get worse when they contract with Apple. Apple screws the per-unit price down and the factory has to cut costs to make a profit from the deal.

[Copper Bezel]

Let's cut through the crap here. What we're really talking about is Foxconn, and in general all other similar China- and asian-based companies who do the manufacturing for -- let's be honest -- the entire technology industry. And Foxconn is merely typical of companies in China and the asian continent, so why simply blame one company amongst hundreds?
Yeah, this irritated me about the Apple story, too. Not just TAL's, but the whole focus on Apple as it bounced around the news cycle. I really, really wish they would all have made some effort to put this in perspective, and no one did. I would have thought it best that they made the focus on the biggest, most recognizable name as a representative of the industry, but I actually heard people being swayed against Apple products and toward other companies' on the basis of that story, which is absurd.

And, of course, the problem isn't even exclusive to the tech industry, or even to durable goods.

[MisterGaribaldi]

It has been noted that conditions at a factory get worse when they contract with Apple. Apple screws the per-unit price down and the factory has to cut costs to make a profit from the deal.

Source? (I'd politely remind you that whatever Apple may do, Walmart does it 100-fold worse.) And, arguably, Apple's not going to try and screw with people as much as other, particularly low-skill, product vendors because they can't afford their iPod, iPad, iPhone, and computer products to come off the assembly line half-a**ed, which at some point is probably what would happen.

Stitching jeans together doesn't take anywhere near the precision has hand-mounting circuit boards and LCD displays. If jeans are off-stitched by a 1/32" or 1/16" it's probably within their slop factor anyhow. Try that with a computer and see how far it gets you!



Yeah, this irritated me about the Apple story, too. Not just TAL's, but the whole focus on Apple as it bounced around the news cycle. I really, really wish they would all have made some effort to put this in perspective, and no one did. I would have thought it best that they made the focus on the biggest, most recognizable name as a representative of the industry, but I actually heard people being swayed against Apple products and toward other companies' on the basis of that story, which is absurd.

And, of course, the problem isn't even exclusive to the tech industry, or even to durable goods.

Exactly.

[vasa1]

...
@OP, there are some subtle semantics at play here. Let's say there's a company that feeds children to crocodiles, but I report that they feed children to bears...
Bears are bears and crocs are crocs. Why not be factually correct? Is there any difficulty with avoiding terminological inexactitudes?

...
I haven't personally seen what's going on at Foxconn, but any company who's idea of "solution to mass employee suicide" is "put nets on the windows so they can't jump out" ...
It would be nice if the source is shared.

[smellyman]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/foxc-j03.shtml

wasn't this already proven bogus? 13 suicides out of 800,000 employees is less than the China average......

[chipbuster]

wasn't this already proven bogus? 13 suicides out of 800,000 employees is less than the China average......

It is. The problem is not with the suicides, but with the company's response to it.

@Vasa I think I did a terrible job of explaning my point. Just because their report was factually incorrect does not make it totally BS (which I admit is actually quite possible), or that the general findings are incorrect. The report is probably overblown, maybe by quite a bit, but that doesn't mean that life at the factories is nice and pretty.


For sources, its basically the first couple pages on the google results (I'm posting this because I don't feel like linking to each individual article):

https://www.google.com/search?q=foxconn+nets&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[rg4w]

wasn't this already proven bogus? 13 suicides out of 800,000 employees is less than the China average......
I don't believe all other suicides in China stopped; I believe what made those Foxconn suicides noteworthy was that they were in addition to the larger cultural norm.

[MisterGaribaldi]

Again, boys and girls, I'll go back to what I said earlier. Nobody here is saying Foxconn is necessarily a delight and a joy to work for. The problem with this situation is, if your facts are a lie, you bring discredit on the entire range of discussion. That's the biggest problem I see with this, apart from the obvious out-and-out anti-Apple yellow journalism thing.

Both Steve Jobs and Tim Cook have stepped up to the plate on this. This whole thing makes it seem like Steve, Tim, and everyone else there either did or are trying to get away with something or sweep dirt under the rug. Fact is, they're a big voice (maybe even one of the biggest?) trying to get Foxconn to change their ways. They're right to stick it to Foxconn as much as they can to ensure people aren't either being put in harm's way, or being mentally stressed to the point of suicide, either.

However, there is also a point beyond which they cannot press, because if the cost of doing business with Apple becomes too great, Foxconn might just tell Apple to shove off. Now, say what you will about Apple, but then where do you think Foxconn workers will be? Do you think most of the rest of the American tech industry (such as it is) cares all that terribly about this?

But a good question to ask yourselves here is why hasn't it been until relatively recently (what, 2008, 2009, or so) that anything was even done or looked into being done with Foxconn? And again, what about the sweatshops in China and Bangladesh? What about the non-tech-sector laborers? Do you folks honestly think this is all just about the tech sector? This is going on in areas that Apple doesn't even have a shred of involvement in, and most of those companies are likely far worse than Foxconn.

I dunno... not to bring politics into the discussion here but... given the course the U.S. has been on lately, maybe we should threaten to invade or nuke China over the factory worker situation. Heck, while we're there, we could take out Beijing, too. After all, how many hundreds of billions of dollars are we into China for these days?†

†Please note this was intended to be facetious. In no way would I hold with attacking Bangladesh or China. But, if it got you to thinking, then it served its purpose.

[nothingspecial]

And we'll leave this one here.

Closed.