p0rnview - Software Centre NEEDS some form of governance

[prupert]

It has taken me years to convince my wife to move over to Ubuntu and she has finally given in and has been using Ubuntu 11.10 on her Dell Mini for few months or so, mostly with no complaints....until tonight.

We opened the main application menu via the Super Key and what greeted her? A list of suggested apps to download, one of which was called Pornview.........she was not impressed.

If Ubuntu is ever to be considered a main stream OS I am afraid you need some form of governance in the Software Centre to hide these kind of apps. You certainly should NOT be displaying these apps in a menu without the users consent or control. If Ubuntu is choosing to display apps I haven't even installed in my main application menu, atleast filter that list to remove ones that could be offensive.

I had planned to install Ubuntu on my daughters laptop, but now I am reconsidering this option, given that there is clearly no governance over what apps Ubuntu pushes on its users.

I am very dissapointed here and am filling a bug with respect to this.

[winh8r]

Whilst I fully understand your concerns in this matter, it should be noted that the package in question is merely a generic photo manager , albeit with a rather inappropriate name. The package will only allow you to manage photographic content(pornographic or otherwise) which is already on your computer and in no way presents any sort of "gateway" to pornographic sites or images.

There is no reference to pornography in the package itself, other than in the title.

I think that this is why it has been included in the software centre, although I must admit that I am quite surprised that it got past the inclusion stage with a name like that.

Having visited the sourceforge package homepage I see that there have been very few downloads of this package.

[Diametric]

I think this was a minor over-site and not endemic to Linux or Ubuntu at large. File the bug, and I'm sure this will be corrected. One poorly named item certainly does not denote lack of governance - folks work tirelessly to keep this product appropriate to all users. Mistakes happen. Move on.

[prupert]

Yeah, I looked into the app more after writing my indignant post. The app itself is fairly innocuous, though from the description you can read between the lines (it says it allows for hands-free viewing..).

For me, it is the name of the app itself and the fact that it was brazenly sitting in my wife's application menu that is at issue. The only reason it is there is due to Ubuntu devs' decision to show apps you can download in that menu (which I think is a good one). But to have no filters on the apps shown is NOT good.

[Jouke74]

The whole purpose of the software system is that people can find what they like, install it, see how it works and delete it if it fails to fulfill their needs, so to speak :-) Now they first need to check if the name of the package is still the original name, or a bunch non-R-rated aliases need to be made (which would actually be a good solution).

You cannot apply filters for software, because once you start this all sort of things have to be made to control this + all feedback around it, would be a days job for a number of people. E.g. what if I find Libreoffice offensive?

Same way you cannot just rename a package without the authors permission I suppose? I would very much dislike t if someone would be naming my hard-worked-upon-free-software-tool different because they don't like the name.
Likely this name was chosen on purpose to provoke just this (against better judgement).

Why is your wife looking for porn in the software center??? :D

[prupert]

The whole purpose of the software system is that people can find what they like, install it, see how it works and delete it if it fails to fulfill their needs, so to speak :-) Now they first need to check if the name of the package is still the original name, or a bunch non-R-rated aliases need to be made (which would actually be a good solution).

You cannot apply filters for software, because once you start this all sort of things have to be made to control this + all feedback around it, would be a days job for a number of people. E.g. what if I find Libreoffice offensive?

Same way you cannot just rename a package without the authors permission I suppose? I would very much dislike t if someone would be naming my hard-worked-upon-free-software-tool different because they don't like the name.
Likely this name was chosen on purpose to provoke just this (against better judgement).

Why is your wife looking for porn in the software center??? :D

But my issue was this wasn't IN the software centre, this was in the Unity Apps menu, that shows a suggestion of apps that you can download from the Software Centre. I suppose my real gripe is about Unity then and not the Software Centre, but I was presuming they come from the same datasource and the Unity devs would just pass the buck to the Software Centre devs.

If my wife was grepping the Software Centre then fair enough, but she was just looking to open Libre Writer via the App menu, and BLAMO. (the word) Pron in my face.

I'm no prude, I am all for a bit of Pron, but only when I make a concious decision to access it and the internet these days is very good at ensuring the boundaries aren't crossed. However, anyone could have opened their Unity App menu and seen that app being displayed and that in my view is not ok.

[Khayyam]

Isn't this a storm in a teacup? There is simply no way to be protected against language, such 'exposure' will occur regardless of "govenance". This vocabulary will be aquired as its part of language, normally prior to our understanding its meaning, and so, rather than focus on the words themselves we should focus on the meaning and the context in which it is used.

In the case of 'p0rnview' this context is irony, and perhaps that 'irony' is missed (which is often the intention of ironic gestures), but it should be remembered that in order to understand it, either in its brute or ironic sense, you would need to have some understanding of the word and situate it in some context. The question is then, how can you be protected from what you already know, or are we asking that others be protected from that knowledge, or is it simply that the subject of pornography (a term which is highly subjective) is such that everyone should be protected from it, even if that exposure is meerly an ironic reference to the term? This is not a question that is practicably solvable, as it involves your asking that others share the standards of language (or language use, such as irony) that you do.

So, I'm not sure there is anything that can be done here without a board of censors to adjudicate over the naming conventions used for software packages. These censors would need to be selected by the highest of community standards and exposed to all manner of "terminology" in order to be able to differentiate between the innocuous and potentially harmful. As this exposure may have a corrupting influence they will need to be monitored closely and possibly rotated out if their exposure reaches levels were they may be prone to subvert the selection method. Same storm, just a slightly bigger teacup.

best ... khay

[1clue]

You know I've seen that app coming up in searches every now and then and never bothered to read the description.

I'm not in any way in favor of preventing any non-malware app from showing up in software center though. That in itself is the main problem I have with Apple, above and beyond any other faults they might have.

I'm not opposed to an adults section though.

[Dangertux]

You arent going to like this answer very much...

There are two noteworthy features of software center you should be aware of. The first is that you can opt out of recommendations the second is that you can opt out because some consider it a privacy violation. Software center uses your usage behavior to generate your recommendations. Consult the documentation for more info.

[snowpine]

Reminds me of the controversy over the application "Evolution"...

[uRock]

Not a help request. Moved to The Community Cafe.

[juancarlospaco]

I can make an App and name it **** it means nothing on my language,
you can make an App and name it C0ncha it means nothing on your language,
... and so on

[forrestcupp]

I don't really care how you guys want to justify this. If I install Ubuntu on my 8 year old's computer, I don't want him to click on the main applications menu and be suggested to install an app called pornviewer. That's a lot different situation than him just stumbling upon it in the software center.

[Dangertux]

I don't really care how you guys want to justify this. If I install Ubuntu on my 8 year old's computer, I don't want him to click on the main applications menu and be suggested to install an app called pornviewer. That's a lot different situation than him just stumbling upon it in the software center.


Then opt out of "Recommended for you"

[mikodo]

i don't really care how you guys want to justify this. If i install ubuntu on my 8 year old's computer, i don't want him to click on the main applications menu and be suggested to install an app called pornviewer. That's a lot different situation than him just stumbling upon it in the software center.
+1

[3rdalbum]

Then opt out of "Recommended for you"

A program with such an NSFW name should not be offered by default unless explicitly searched for. That must be opt-in, not opt-out. Besides, you can't opt out of Apps for Download in the Dash unless you run 12.04, and most people wont realise you can do it anyway.

[uRock]

I wonder if the OP has created a bug report. If linked here, then I would gladly click "effects me" to get it removed the repos or have it renamed to something more family friendly.

[snowpine]

I wonder if the OP has created a bug report. If linked here, then I would gladly click "effects me" to get it removed the repos or have it renamed to something more family friendly.

A productive suggestion; seconded! :)

[Khayyam]

Reminds me of the controversy over the application "Evolution"...

Indeed ... did someone say slippery slope?

[Khayyam]

I don't really care how you guys want to justify this. If I install Ubuntu on my 8 year old's computer, I don't want him to click on the main applications menu and be suggested to install an app called pornviewer. That's a lot different situation than him just stumbling upon it in the software center.

Firstly, there is no "justification" being given here, only discussion. Secondly, would the word "p0rnview" have any meaning for your 8 year old, and what are you protecting him/her from exactly, and image viewer, or a word?

best regards ... khay

[castrojo]

This is an inprogress bug that is being fixed:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/883800

[Thewhistlingwind]

You arent going to like this answer very much...
There are two noteworthy features of software center you should be aware of. The first is that you can opt out of recommendations the second is that you can opt out because some consider it a privacy violation. Software center uses your usage behavior to generate your recommendations. Consult the documentation for more info.


It's pretty scary what machine learning based recommendation engines give you sometimes. It's like the "Tivo thinks I'm gay" issue applied to the whole web. Nowhere is this more awkward than when it comes to rule 34. Because if you point out that you're seeing it, it calls into question weather that fact says more about you or the learning algorithm. Since I've been in this position at least once, I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. It's not like theres all that many apps in the software center anyway.

At any rate, I'm currently in a project where Ubuntu systems are shipped to school environments with kids and small children. I would very much appreciate it if the software center devs added a "Never reccomend" tag and applied it to stuff like this.

[lisati]

It's pretty scary what machine learning based recommendation engines give you sometimes. It's like the "Tivo thinks I'm gay" issue applied to the whole web.
Interesting thought. I recently posted elsewhere about how I was searching a reputable retailer's site for clocks and watches, and the search results I was offered had nothing to do with timekeeping.

[arpanaut]

This is an inprogress bug that is being fixed:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/883800

That is excellent,
Even better in 12.04 LTS the option to not show "Available" in the Dash will be available.
So, things are coming along quite well.

If Ubuntu isn't 100% Family Friendly, then we are done.
The 200 Million will never happen.

[Warpnow]

I find it odd this app got in. It looks to be a dead project, sourceforge shows last update in 2009. Beyond that, its not even that good of an image viewer. It might have been in 2009, but there are literally dozens of better image viewers in the repos.

A bigger issue, I think, though...is why are the reccomendations so bad? I'm sorry, but if it reccomends this app to anyone, it should be a sign there's something wrong with the formula it uses.

Maybe reccomendations should come from a set of very well put together preapproved apps. If ubuntu reccomends an application to you, Ubuntu is vouching for that application. If that application is of poor quality, it reflects that ubuntu is of poor quality, intentional or not. It would be in ubuntu's best interest to only suggest high quality apps. There are packages out there that are broken, or very buggy. If ubuntu reccomends those to a new user, it may make the user leave Ubuntu.

My $.02

[Thewhistlingwind]

If ubuntu reccomends an application to you, Ubuntu is vouching for that application. If that application is of poor quality, it reflects that ubuntu is of poor quality, intentional or not. It would be in ubuntu's best interest to only suggest high quality apps. There are packages out there that are broken, or very buggy. If ubuntu reccomends those to a new user, it may make the user leave Ubuntu.

My $.02

Absolutely. Right on the mark if you ask me. If the algorithms can be this off, then it makes sense to say that they shouldn't be trusted with the Ubuntu branding. Thats just common sense.

[mips]

So people take offence to a word? What do you do when your kid reads the newspaper, sensor the content with a black marker first?

If I took offence to bible related software popping up would it also be ok for me to call for it to be 'hidden' seeing I take offence to religion and don't want my kids reading that stuff? Just an example but can you see where this is giong?

[keithpeter]

Then opt out of "Recommended for you"

Hello All

There was a similar discussion on the Unity e-mail list a couple of weeks ago.

Can the 'opt out' option be set in advance of an oem or automated install?

If the answer to that is 'no', forget the school market in the UK.

Is the opt out option itself suggested anywhere? Perhaps as part of a 'first run' process?

If the answer is 'no' expect a lot of bad press from family users on mass roll out on tablets/TVs.

I appreciate the libertarian position on this question, but we are talking practicalities of Ubuntu mass use. Its different.

[cespinal]

Reminds me of the controversy over the application "Evolution"...

Please tell me more

[Linux_junkie]

But my issue was this wasn't IN the software centre, this was in the Unity Apps menu, that shows a suggestion of apps that you can download from the Software Centre. I suppose my real gripe is about Unity then and not the Software Centre, but I was presuming they come from the same datasource and the Unity devs would just pass the buck to the Software Centre devs.

If my wife was grepping the Software Centre then fair enough, but she was just looking to open Libre Writer via the App menu, and BLAMO. (the word) Pron in my face.

I'm no prude, I am all for a bit of Pron, but only when I make a concious decision to access it and the internet these days is very good at ensuring the boundaries aren't crossed. However, anyone could have opened their Unity App menu and seen that app being displayed and that in my view is not ok.

If you don't like the way Unity recommends applications then I would suggest replacing Unity with Gnome-shell. Works very similar but does not have the lens thingy!

[Grenage]

So people take offence to a word? What do you do when your kid reads the newspaper, sensor the content with a black marker first?

If I took offence to bible related software popping up would it also be ok for me to call for it to be 'hidden' seeing I take offence to religion and don't want my kids reading that stuff? Just an example but can you see where this is giong?

While I think it's a silly name, and probably going to 'offend' more people than a Tao guide, I agree with you. There's a thin line, but in a professional product you have to go with the majority.

[Khayyam]

I appreciate the libertarian position on this question, but we are talking practicalities of Ubuntu mass use. Its different.

Keith ... do you not find it odd that where "mass use" is concerned we wish to prevent persons being exposed to the word "p0rn" but that these same persons can be exposed to language that describes the eating of s**t and drinking p**s (2 Kings 18:27) without anyone seeing the slightest bit harm in it? It's not a question of "liberty" but of standards applied in a arbitrary manner. As mips pointed out, what other criteria could be applied, shouldn't his children be protected from the exposure to religion, and who is the arbiter of what these standards might be?

As I stated in an earlier post, there is simply no way to protect persons from language, the best that can be done is to provide people with the context with which to understand it.

If there are legal constaints then, however arbitrary, they should be followed, but I feel this issue is more one reflective of fear and prejudice than any real danger, a storm in a teacup.

best regards ... khay

[Dry Lips]

Question:

How does the app store / apple store and the new software centre in Windows 8 handle issues like this?

[prupert]

You arent going to like this answer very much...

There are two noteworthy features of software center you should be aware of. The first is that you can opt out of recommendations the second is that you can opt out because some consider it a privacy violation. Software center uses your usage behavior to generate your recommendations. Consult the documentation for more info.

I was unaware of this, I'll have a read and turn this feature off for the wife.

[prupert]

Reminds me of the controversy over the application "Evolution"...

This response has given me some perspective....if I am being likened to an evolutionary denialist then perhaps I have gone a tad far ;)

Point taken.

[prupert]

I wonder if the OP has created a bug report. If linked here, then I would gladly click "effects me" to get it removed the repos or have it renamed to something more family friendly.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-lens-applications/+bug/948453

though I think I have filed the bug against the wrong app.

[winh8r]

Hello All

There was a similar discussion on the Unity e-mail list a couple of weeks ago.

Can the 'opt out' option be set in advance of an oem or automated install?

If the answer to that is 'no', forget the school market in the UK.


This is the point that a few people seem to be missing. This has nothing to do with religion or what we as Ubuntu users see as acceptable. It is to do with the fact that the UK government for one will not entertain the idea of implementing Ubuntu as an alternative to Microsoft products in UK schools if there are issues like this.
We cannot help the way the government set criteria for things like this but by the same tokenn we cannot stand by and watch Ubuntu being rejected due to one or two minor features/packages of the operating system which are quite frankly gimmicky and not really necessary to the efficient running of the system in general.

[prupert]

This is an inprogress bug that is being fixed:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/883800

Ahah, I did do a search on launchpad for pornview, but nothing came up and as the title used can be fairly esoteric, I didn't find this bug.

Thanks, I have marked mine as a duplicate. Great to see this is already regarded as an issue and is being fixed. My faith in the good sense of Ubuntu has been restored.

[LowSky]

If anyone I knew saw p0rnview come up on the suggested apps they would laugh. Not to be mean but clearly the OP's wife was using or searching for an application with the same functions of p0rnview.

[prupert]

Question:

How does the app store / apple store and the new software centre in Windows 8 handle issues like this?

I think they employ a whole bunch of people to curate the app store manually, Apple certainly review each app manually.

[prupert]

If anyone I knew saw p0rnview come up on the suggested apps they would laugh. Not to be mean but clearly the OP's wife was using or searching for an application with the same functions of p0rnview.

But that is my issue, we weren't. Here is the flow of the conversation that resulted in my billious post:

Wife: Does this computer have anything like Word, so I can write a hospital bag list (she's 31 weeks pregnant and we need to get prepared ;))
Me: Sure it should be called OpenOffice/LibreOffice Writer
Wife: How can I find it, it is not on that bar on the left and there is no Start button
Me: God damn you and your conditioning Microsoft....here, press this Windows/Super button to access the menu
Wife: Ok
Me: Now, press the More apps icon
Wife: Ok...what the hell is pornview
Me: Err, not sure, that is an app it suggests you download
Wife: Why, I only use this computer to read facebook, some news sites and watch our baby on the webcam
Me: Err, yeah, that is pretty wrong, I shall go off and write a pompous post on that there interweb


And there you have it. We weren't searching for anything dodgy, we hadn't even entered a search term, all we clicked was more apps.

[darkshvein]

Lol, I think "porno" - is a set of random characters. Such as "DSBM". If child did not know word before, how (s)he can understand it means? Initiate hidden subprogram? :twisted:
P.S. sorry4bad English. I am only assistant deputy backup courier.

[Grenage]

Lol, I think "porno" - is a set of random characters. Such as "DSBM". If child did not know word before, how (s)he can understand it means? Initiate hidden subprogram? :twisted:
P.S. sorry4bad English. I am only assistant deputy backup courier.


Porno is short for Pornography/Pornographic. The latter example, although out of sequence, also stands for something. ;)

[LowSky]

Me: Err, yeah, that is pretty wrong, I shall go off and write a pompous post on that there interweb

And there you have it. We weren't searching for anything dodgy, we hadn't even entered a search term, all we clicked was more apps.

If your transcript is accurate, I see "Err" as "Oh no, my wife thinks I was looking for this earlier." I'm joking of course.

Personally I hate the whole concept of the OS suggesting applications for me to download and/or buy. If I was using the Software Center, sure fine if you have to for ad revenue. Actually I think a great option would be to have a clickable icon or link to the Software Center in the menu at all time with the following message, "Can't find what you need? Take a look here:"

But then again I use Arch Linux as my first choice OS these days. I actually have to know the app I'm looking for or I can't install it. I miss when Ubuntu was like that too, lol.

[Khayyam]

This is the point that a few people seem to be missing. This has nothing to do with religion or what we as Ubuntu users see as acceptable. It is to do with the fact that the UK government for one will not entertain the idea of implementing Ubuntu as an alternative to Microsoft products in UK schools if there are issues like this. We cannot help the way the government set criteria for things like this but by the same tokenn we cannot stand by and watch Ubuntu being rejected due to one or two minor features/packages of the operating system which are quite frankly gimmicky and not really necessary to the efficient running of the system in general.

winh8r ... I did write "If there are legal constaints then, however arbitrary, they should be followed", and I framed my point as having more to do with arbitraryness than any concern about religion, values, free-sperch, or what-have-you.

As for goverment, to err is human, to really sc**w up you need a government. :)

best ... khay

[squilookle]

I use the GIMP at work, and that gets some funny responses from folk that have never come across it before.

Personally, I have no issues with the name of the package but I can understand where the OP is coming from.

I think it's a sad case of being unable to please everyone though. You'll either infringe the rights of the users that find the name inappropriate, or infringe on the rights and freedoms of the devs to call their packages whatever they want and distribute them freely.

I suppose a filter could be provided, but
a) someone would have to take the time and effort to develop it
b) we would run into the same issue we have now: what is offensive to one person is not offensive to another
c) the OP would have to be expecting to find this to turn it on (which he didn't) or the filter would have to be on by default so others would have to turn it off to prevent apps they aren't offended by being hidden.

[mips]

You'll either infringe the rights of the users that find the name inappropriate...

What rights are those?

If you see a girly mag on the shelf at a store do you open it, look at it and buy it even though it offends you or do you chose not to be offended by not opening it, not looking it and not buying it? The same goes for this application, you are not being forced to install it, you can disable the recommended applications feature and it actually has nothing to do with porn etc. So what exactly is being forced down your throat and infringes on your rights?

[forrestcupp]

Then opt out of "Recommended for you"


A program with such an NSFW name should not be offered by default unless explicitly searched for. That must be opt-in, not opt-out. Besides, you can't opt out of Apps for Download in the Dash unless you run 12.04, and most people wont realise you can do it anyway.Right. If it's possible to "opt out", then they need to make it very obvious how to do it, and maybe even offer that as an installation choice. If I didn't even know that I can opt out, how am I going to do it?


Firstly, there is no "justification" being given here, only discussion. Secondly, would the word "p0rnview" have any meaning for your 8 year old, and what are you protecting him/her from exactly, and image viewer, or a word?

best regards ... khaySo you think discussing porn with an 8 year old is appropriate? Kids that age are already hearing things at school, so it wouldn't surprise me for him to already at least have an idea of what porn is. I don't want him opening his menu and being offered something called "pornviewer" whether it gives him access to porn or not. If you think that's appropriate, you must not have kids of your own. According to Ubuntu's Bug #1, Linux is not just for porn viewing, bearded geeks.


So people take offence to a word? What do you do when your kid reads the newspaper, sensor the content with a black marker first?

If I took offence to bible related software popping up would it also be ok for me to call for it to be 'hidden' seeing I take offence to religion and don't want my kids reading that stuff? Just an example but can you see where this is giong?They shouldn't offer us suggestions for anything at all. If I want something, I'm going to go searching for it.

[keithpeter]

Keith ... do you not find it odd that where "mass use" is concerned we wish to prevent persons being exposed to the word "p0rn" but that these same persons can be exposed to language that describes the eating of s**t and drinking p**s (2 Kings 18:27)

No, I don't find it odd.

Please understand that I am not saying what is 'right' or 'wrong' here.

I'm trying to point out to people that mass use of Ubuntu in state organisations means that Ubuntu must meet certain standards. Yes, those standards may not apply outside the organisations I work in. No that won't make any difference.

Saying that a feature 'can be switched off' is no good if you have 1200 PCs plus three thin client networks with a further 300 screens.

Perhaps the 'enterprise edition' will solve this issue. I'd love to see people using Ubuntu in Colleges instead of paying a yearly licence fee to Microsoft.

[squilookle]

What rights are those?

If you see a girly mag on the shelf at a store do you open it, look at it and buy it even though it offends you or do you chose not to be offended by not opening it, not looking it and not buying it? The same goes for this application, you are not being forced to install it, you can disable the recommended applications feature and it actually has nothing to do with porn etc. So what exactly is being forced down your throat and infringes on your rights?

I agree with you completely and I think this is a non-issue, but different people have different boundaries and it's clearly an issue for the OP. I'm just trying to see it from his point of view as well as my own.

[Sylos]

I have to say reading though this thread so far has given me quite a chuckle. I can see how this scenario might go - significant other gets recomended p0rnviewer and asks what the hell that is all about - "Err, I dont know - its just recomended it for you". Missus thinks "Hmm I didnt look for anything related to that - whats he been up to!" Que withering stare of 3 day celibacy! :mad:

Joking aside though I dont see why (as suggested above) this is really any worse than GIMP. I installed linux for my dad and he wanted to manipulate some of his photos. " No worries dad, break out the GIMP".
"Pardon?" says my 55 year old dad.

Ok, so GIMP stands for something related to the project (GNU Image Manipulation Programme I think) but where are we gonna draw the line. I doubt its a convenient coincidence that nobody noticed that the acronym spelt gimp!

I can undersatnd people dont want to have their kids asking "Dady whats p0rnviewer all about" but I cant say why the same wouldnt hold for GIMP. Ok, with GIMP you could sidestep the issue but that could lead to other issues later - imagine your innocent child in later life innocently under the impression that GIMP means nothing more than good image editing. Cue the sitcom moment when a guy dressed in black enters the room - Yikes!

[uRock]

This is an inprogress bug that is being fixed:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/883800

I have given it my +1. The name is inappropriate and hopefully it gets changed or removed. Thanks for sharing the link.

[forrestcupp]

I have given it my +1. The name is inappropriate and hopefully it gets changed or removed. Thanks for sharing the link.

Me too. Thanks.

[Dry Lips]

I have given it my +1. The name is inappropriate and hopefully it gets changed or removed. Thanks for sharing the link.

Another +1 "affects me"! I agree that there is absolutely no reason why such a package should have that kind of name. If it is a good program, many wouldn't install it simply because of the name. So I think it is in the interest of all to change the name.

[Khayyam]

Firstly, there is no "justification" being given here, only discussion. Secondly, would the word "p0rnview" have any meaning for your 8 year old, and what are you protecting him/her from exactly, an image viewer, or a word?

So you think discussing porn with an 8 year old is appropriate? Kids that age are already hearing things at school, so it wouldn't surprise me for him to already at least have an idea of what porn is. I don't want him opening his menu and being offered something called "pornviewer" whether it gives him access to porn or not. If you think that's appropriate, you must not have kids of your own. According to Ubuntu's Bug #1, Linux is not just for porn viewing, bearded geeks.

The "discussing" I'm reffering to is the discussion in this thread, are you intentionally trying to strawman? "Appropriate" in what context, and what kind of "discussion"? If the subject was broached then, yes, it'd be appropriate to explain in it in some manner, but I feel that you are simply trying to use "appropriate" in a way that says only "no-no" you can't do that with a fragile eight year old mind. As you say, they may have already have been exposed to the subject, and so there is already a context for it being discussed, how this is done obviously requires tact, and care, but as I've been at great pains to make clear, there is no other way to deal with it other than providing a context in which it can be undertood. The idea that they can be protected from exposure in some manner is an idea that is blind to how how language and social exchange works, and how learning is acquired. To say, for instance, 'I don't want my children knowing about such things' is all well and good, obviously we try to sheild our loved ones from harm, but this is a seperate question to the realtiy of our ability to do so. Exposure to danger comes as one of the hidden costs of being human, and of being a social animal, to pretend that some preventative measure is going to offset this danger, and that persons can be protected from words, is meerly the illusion of safety. Remember we are talking about the use of a word here, nothing more.

Now, as for your concluding statements, I can only recommend you take a course in logic. If Socrates were a banana then he wouldn't have kids either ... true conclusions can only come from true premises. I guess being the worlds only parent grants you a certain right to commit the argumentum ad hominem? As for your second, and authoritative, fallacy, 'bug #1', that might be classed under any number of fallacies, but I'll go with red herring.

best ... khay

[snowpine]

The "problem" here is that many Linux applications do not have descriptive, appealing names. Seems like a lot of open-source projects are named as some sort of acronym or inside-joke without any regard to marketing/public image as with a commercial product. How is a new Linux user supposed to know that "GIMP" (offensive to people with disabilities) is the image editor, "Evolution" (offensive to creationists) is for checking e-mail, and "pornview" is for... oh wait... that one at least is self-explanatory. ;)

Criticize Microsoft all you want, but at least "Internet Explorer" and "Word" do what they say they do.

[forrestcupp]

The "discussing" I'm reffering to is the discussion in this thread, are you intentionally trying to strawman? "Appropriate" in what context, and what kind of "discussion"? If the subject was broached then, yes, it'd be appropriate to explain in it in some manner, but I feel that you are simply trying to use "appropriate" in a way that says only "no-no" you can't do that with a fragile eight year old mind. As you say, they may have already have been exposed to the subject, and so there is already a context for it being discussed, how this is done obviously requires tact, and care, but as I've been at great pains to make clear, there is no other way to deal with it other than providing a context in which it can be undertood. The idea that they can be protected from exposure in some manner is an idea that is blind to how how language and social exchange works, and how learning is acquired. To say, for instance, 'I don't want my children knowing about such things' is all well and good, obviously we try to sheild our loved ones from harm, but this is a seperate question to the realtiy of our ability to do so. Exposure to danger comes as one of the hidden costs of being human, and of being a social animal, to pretend that some preventative measure is going to offset this danger, and that persons can be protected from words, is meerly the illusion of safety. Remember we are talking about the use of a word here, nothing more.

I completely agree with what you are saying about the context for this subject to be discussed with my 8 year old. But having Ubuntu suggest that my kid install an app called "pornviewer" is definitely not the appropriate way for this subject to be broached, and I can't think of any conceivable scenario where you could convince me that it is.

[snowpine]

Pornviewer aside, there are plenty of controlled environments (schools, government, military, churches) that are potential Ubuntu customers and for whom certain categories of apps (bible apps, multimedia, games, and other time-wasters) may wish to be restricted.

[mips]

Pornviewer aside, there are plenty of controlled environments (schools, government, military, churches) that are potential Ubuntu customers and for whom certain categories of apps (bible apps, multimedia, games, and other time-wasters) may wish to be restricted.

If you are going to install Ubuntu in a environment like this it would most likely be a custom locked down version. The same way you would do with windows.

[MisterGaribaldi]

This response has given me some perspective....if I am being likened to an evolutionary denialist then perhaps I have gone a tad far ;)

Point taken.

Not everyone here holds with Darwinian theology, prupert. To be honest, the first time I saw "Evolution" I'd assumed they meant it in a more slogan-istic way, like "this program represents an evolution in open-source email clients", even though I am also well-aware of the charged nature of that word.

I think children should be raised in a loving, responsible family home life, and given good, solid, and sane moral and ethical values. And yes, there's also some things which are really inappropriate for a professional organization like Canonical to become involved with. I also agree with those on here who have said you cannot and probably should not try to shield your children against every bad thing in the world. Sooner or later, they have to be allowed to realize they were born into an imperfect and also very diverse world.

Oddly enough, I've yet to hear anyone complain about the name of a certain file system/partition management utility. ;)

[Khayyam]

I completely agree with what you are saying about the context for this subject to be discussed with my 8 year old. But having Ubuntu suggest that my kid install an app called "pornviewer" is definitely not the appropriate way for this subject to be broached, and I can't think of any conceivable scenario where you could convince me that it is.

I was responding to your question, you asked: "so you think discussing porn with an 8 year old is appropriate?" A question which I took to be loaded, now your in agreement, and we've switched to another tack.

The problem I have, as I thought I'd made clear, is not with the application being provided, recommended, removed, excorcised, etc, etc, but with the 'storm' and reasoning provided to make the argument seem as though it has some justification (that is, outside of any legal and/or practical requirement). People are arguing as though they have had 'p0rn' shoved in their, or thier childrens, faces, when this is simply not the case, it is nothing but a word (used, it should be noted, ironicly). It is this protectionism, and evocation of "the children", that bothers me, as it is seems to work against any rational discussion of the subject. If anyone thinks that they, or any minor, is being protected by the removal/blacklisting of pr0nview then I would seriously question their judgement.

That doesn't mean that I object to it being removed, blacklisted, or whatever (as I said, this is not a question of censorship, or free speech) but I wonder why people seem to view this as something that needs done for reasons of 'exposure', 'protection', etc ... and that is all I have been rallying against.

Anyhow, if faced with having to justfify why 'x is appropriate' then I will generally side with reason, harm comes in all shapes and sizes, and some harm will even have its own protection clause.

best ... khay

[forrestcupp]

I'm not "evoking children" for the sake of argument; I'm speaking from my own personal situation. I really do have an 8 year old son that I don't want Ubuntu suggesting apps like pornviewer. It's a photo viewing app with "porn" in its name. I wonder what they envisioned it being used for?

It's not about it being just a word. It's about that word possibly being a temptation for a young kid to go seeking for photos to use that software how it was envisioned.

And I'm sorry that I tried to make a point by implying and accusing you of thinking it's appropriate for kids to be involved with porn. That was bad form. I didn't really think that of you; I was just making a point. But I shouldn't have done that.

[Simian Man]

I agree that things should be monitored more closely. I saw this program in software center that opened up this book with all of these really messed up stories I wouldn't want my kids exposed to. It had genocide, slavery, hatred, and other messed up stuff in it. The program was called Xiphos I think.

[Khayyam]

Keith ... do you not find it odd that where "mass use" is concerned we wish to prevent persons being exposed to the word "p0rn" but that these same persons can be exposed to language that describes the eating of s**t and drinking p**s (2 Kings 18:27)

No, I don't find it odd. Please understand that I am not saying what is 'right' or 'wrong' here. I'm trying to point out to people that mass use of Ubuntu in state organisations means that Ubuntu must meet certain standards. Yes, those standards may not apply outside the organisations I work in. No that won't make any difference.

This, I think, is two entirely seperate questions. The arbitaryness of saying one word (or series of words) is harmful while another not, is to be guarded against whatever the context, whereas the practical question of meeting certain requirements in order to "do x" is one that can be maintained without being lapsed on the former. The question is whether we simply disregard the former, and say "x requires us to do so". Removing p0rnview is one thing, but thinking that it is done for other than practical reasons, is where I think a problem might lie.

best ... khay

[snowpine]

Given the impossibility of setting a standard that will satisfy everyone, perhaps the "recommend-an-app" feature should be opt-in rather than opt-out.

[juancarlospaco]

Me insist, offensive on what language?,
maybe Gwibber means something ugly in some language...

[mips]

I agree that things should be monitored more closely. I saw this program in software center that opened up this book with all of these really messed up stories I wouldn't want my kids exposed to. It had genocide, slavery, hatred, and other messed up stuff in it. The program was called Xiphos I think.

We should log a bug report and get people to +1 it.

The above would concern me more than just a word.

Who's game?

[snowpine]

We should log a bug report and get people to +1 it.

The above would concern me more than just a word.

Who's game?

Personally I am OK with the porn and bible stuff, but would not want my (hypothetical) 8-year-old exposed to games promoting bloodshed, murder, realistic first-person-shooters, etc.

And so we see the futility of "community standards"... in the final analysis, it is not my responsibility to raise another parent's child.

[mips]

Personally I am OK with the porn and bible stuff, but would not want my (hypothetical) 8-year-old exposed to games promoting bloodshed, murder, realistic first-person-shooters, etc.

And so we see the futility of "community standards"... in the final analysis, it is not my responsibility to raise another parent's child.

I understand where you are coming from so I suggest we log another bug report for games containing violence, blood etc

Personally I have more of a problem with the promotion of violence than I have with say nudity and stuff like that.

I'm actually being serious about this in case anyone is wondering, even if it is just to get a point across.

[snowpine]

Here's my final thought on the matter, to play devil's advocate:

If your 8 year old is exposed to "naughty" applications, that implies that he/she:

a) is connected to the internet
and
b) has administrator rights to the system
and
c) is unsupervised.

Ask yourself whether stumbling across the four letters p, o, r, and n is the worst that can happen in that scenario. ;)

I agree with the bug report that's already been filed, and that is currently being fixed. "Recommend-an-app" sounds like a gimmicky and unnecessary feature, I agree it should be restricted and/or changed to opt-in for future Ubuntu releases. Sounds Canonical already has the situation in hand. (no pun intended)

[keithpeter]

Given the impossibility of setting a standard that will satisfy everyone, perhaps the "recommend-an-app" feature should be opt-in rather than opt-out.

+1

OR keep the current default for 'domestic' Ubuntu but have the enterprise/organisation version with the default set to off.

The ability to turn on recommedations would have to require admin password as well (teenagers are pretty creative, especially if there is something 'forbidden' :twisted: )

Personally, I abhor 'crapware' in any form, and 'recommendations' appearing in the software centre are 'crapware' so far as I am concerned, but that is a different argument.

[winh8r]

How it works:


https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter/Recommendations

[forrestcupp]

My last word, then you can carry on however you want.

I don't have a "hypothetical 8 year old boy"; I have a real 8 year old boy. It appears that a lot of you in this discussion don't have any kids of your own, and if that's the case, then you're not speaking from experience, so I don't give 2 cents what you have to say on this matter.

And it's also bold how some of you have turned a discussion of morals into a discussion of religion.

[KiwiNZ]

As mentioned there is a procedure to deal with type of issue. Further discussion here would be fruitless and will no doubt fracture the COC.

Thread closed