Eben Moglen about the Free Software revolution

[asimon]

Eben Moglen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Moglen) talked in his keynode at the Red Hat Summit about the Free Software Revolution (http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/videos/). It's a very good talk, watch the video!

[mostwanted]

I watched the keynote yesterday and I agree - he just spits out one clever anecdote after another.

[curuxz]

I just watched it and while I like what he does I think the speach was a load of crap. Amercian this amercian that despite Linux comming from a non-american and the US being the home of the biggest anti-opensource poeple and being the home to the worst corporate coruption that damages opensource and promotes microsoft like companies and indeed microsoft its self.

Then you have his stance saying that opensource is an amercian style of politics, im sorry thats bull crap america hates communism its alway been afraid of it and opensource is distinctly communist infact it could be described as the only working communism in history.

I know he was talking TO an american audiance but I think most of what he said was inaccurate or just grabbing credit for work done by other people and other countires. Why in a global age do some people still persist in nationalism to this extent. Talking about OSS and GPL/GNU should not have anything to do with america from a legal stand point unless your talking about how bad and ineffective its anti-trust system is.

Im sorry I watched this speach, I liked him untill now.

But thanks for linking :) always nice to be well informed.

[mostwanted]

I just watched it and while I like what he does I think the speach was a load of crap. Amercian this amercian that despite Linux comming from a non-american and the US being the home of the biggest anti-opensource poeple and being the home to the worst corporate coruption that damages opensource and promotes microsoft like companies and indeed microsoft its self.

Then you have his stance saying that opensource is an amercian style of politics, im sorry thats bull crap america hates communism its alway been afraid of it and opensource is distinctly communist infact it could be described as the only working communism in history.

I know he was talking TO an american audiance but I think most of what he said was inaccurate or just grabbing credit for work done by other people and other countires. Why in a global age do some people still persist in nationalism to this extent. Talking about OSS and GPL/GNU should not have anything to do with america from a legal stand point unless your talking about how bad and ineffective its anti-trust system is.

Im sorry I watched this speach, I liked him untill now.

But thanks for linking :) always nice to be well informed.

Linux isn't communist. You can't compare it so easily to political systems. In my mind Linux is the embodiment of the core liberal values like free competition and individual rights, doesn't make Linux a liberal flag ship no more than it makes it a communist flag ship.

And I don't mind that he emphasises that open source embodies his opinion of what the American mindset should be (note the added emphasis). I think he makes it very clear that Americans have moved away from those core values through initiatives such as software patents and alike.

[asimon]

I just watched it and while I like what he does I think the speach was a load of crap. Amercian this amercian that despite Linux comming from a non-american and the US being the home of the biggest anti-opensource poeple and being the home to the worst corporate coruption that damages opensource and promotes microsoft like companies and indeed microsoft its self.
For my ears there were too many "we americans" too. But! it makes sense to explain how the fundamental idea of Free Software is in line to old american ideals (which btw doesn't mean that these can be found only in america) when some of the most influential software companies in the world attack the Free Software revolution (among many other things) as anti-american.



Then you have his stance saying that opensource is an amercian style of politics, im sorry thats bull crap america hates communism its alway been afraid of it and opensource is distinctly communist infact it could be described as the only working communism in history.
I don't think communism is even distinctly communist despite some big software companies say so (I think Stallman once wrote an article about thiis, but of course you're free to disagree). That's the reason why Moglen explained what free software is about and tried to explain that it's actually a very american (= anti communist) thing.



I know he was talking TO an american audiance but I think most of what he said was inaccurate or just grabbing credit for work done by other people and other countires. Why in a global age do some people still persist in nationalism to this extent.
It's because the enemies of Free Software do it too. They want to give the (american) public the feeling that Free Software is anti-american and against the principles of that "great" country of Freedom. This stupid argument has to be disproved. And just saying "it's wrong" or "it's stupid" doesn't convince those who hear to such things. So in this light I think this national touch to his speech make sense. Although I wonder how he talks when speaking in front of an European audience for example.



Talking about OSS and GPL/GNU should not have anything to do with america from a legal stand point unless your talking about how bad and ineffective its anti-trust system is.
Actually it has to do a lot with the american legal system. Imagine a GPL which would be valid in France but not the USA? That would not help.

[G Morgan]

He has to keep repeating the name America in this context. I'm sorry but most people (and we are dealing with the ordinary person when trying to change opinions) only respond to buzz words. They need to make it so that OSS is accepted in the US as it is elsewhere in the world and the way to do this is mention America and OSS positively in as many sentences as posible. It's a form of brainwashing true enough but the corperations have been doing this for years.

Theres also the argument made by Warren Woodford (the business man behind Mepis) that Americans prefer an American product. The more the American influence is talked up in America the more people will buy into it.

Crap now I'm doing it :mrgreen: .

[bruce89]

Reminds me of Shelly the republican! (http://shelleytherepublican.com/2006/04/20/linux-a-european-threat-to-our-computers-by-tristan.aspx)

[G Morgan]

Reminds me of Shelly the republican! (http://shelleytherepublican.com/2006/04/20/linux-a-european-threat-to-our-computers-by-tristan.aspx)

I'm read that site before but thats exactly the point. If Windows is perceived as American while Linux is perceived as Chinese/European/Martian then people in America will probably stick with Windows. The problem is that in a time when economies are global most people still have a false belief of a certain product belonging to that country.

[curuxz]

Actually it has to do a lot with the american legal system. Imagine a GPL which would be valid in France but not the USA? That would not help.

But that is my exact point, he is talking as if America has it right and the rest of the world is somehow backward where as the reverse is true. Other counties are leading opensource and america's corporate govenment is blocking the FOSS movement.

As for those that say its anti-communist, well liberal I can understand because in many ways it is just that but you should also see that firstly the idea of communism, while not one I agree with, is principaly a good one not evil as the USA says its only failed in practice due to human greed and the same could be said for most polictial distopia's however opensource is everyone pitching in and contributing for the comman good, eveyone puts in as much as they can and we all get the benifits, now whats NOT communist about that. Its the embodyment of marxism to have system where no one big person rules, no one group has the dominant say and everyone pitches in. Its in this context I think open source software is the best working example of communist ideas.

I know about buzz words but it does not make them acceptable, lies are lies and I dont want the American style of dumbing down to start to leak in to the opensource world, yes we would like America to be onboard but fact is we have done just fine without them so far, smart Americans will join us the stupid ones will stick with what they know and suffer as a result. Just as we dont market our products at white supremasists, terrorists and zionists why should we market to those that are so stupid that buzz words would really make that much of a diffrence to them. You always have to evaulate marketing in terms of how much your target group is worth to you, they are not worth anything and this speach runs the risk of alienating hard working and contributing foss members...and people like me :)

I am the last person who wants linux to be a political icon but if someone so prominant in red hat is going to make it one then make it the true icon of world invovation and co-operation NOT an icon of Americanism the art of comming in after the battle is won and proclaiming victory. This speach is very counter productive in my view.

as for shelly "Like most things that are worth owning, Computers are an American invention. Look at any modern computer and you will see that the whole thing is the product of American brilliance." from your home page, erm I seem to remeber a certain country called the United Kingdom of Great Briton inventing the computer now I know for simple repubplican brains the letters USA and UK are 'darn mighty confusing yawl' but you should really take a closer look before opening your misguided mouth.


Please do not take my commments on any of these issues as aggressive im only voicing my concern at the flag waving attitudes of such a respected member of the foss community.

[asimon]

But that is my exact point, he is talking as if America has it right and the rest of the world is somehow backward where as the reverse is true. Other counties are leading opensource and america's corporate govenment is blocking the FOSS movement.
I must have overheard the part where he sayed that America is right and the rest world backward. He explicidly sayed that the patent system hinders innovation and that part of the corporate world (he more than once mentions Microsoft) fights the FOSS movement.


[...]however opensource is everyone pitching in and contributing for the comman good, eveyone puts in as much as they can and we all get the benifits, now whats NOT communist about that.
Actually not everyone puts in as much as they can. Most just use the software and don't improve it at all. It's about the freedom to do what you want with the software, you are not forced to work on it, there is only the possibility ensured. Anyway, I even heart arguments why propritary software is more communist then free software... there many different and often very polarized opinions.



Its the embodyment of marxism to have system where no one big person rules, no one group has the dominant say and everyone pitches in. Its in this context I think open source software is the best working example of communist ideas.
This is not how free software is working. The average user often can't change the software at all. The developers decide, so they are your dominant group here. In case of a payed developer his employer decides. The average user can only maybe convince a developer to do the changes or pay someone to do them. I think that is a far cry from a classless society.



I know about buzz words but it does not make them acceptable, lies are lies and I dont want the American style of dumbing down to start to leak in to the opensource world, yes we would like America to be onboard but fact is we have done just fine without them so far
Would like them to be onboard? Hello, there is already much code from american developers everywhere in Free Software. Do you mean you would be able to run the linux kernel or Ubuntu without the code of american Free Software developers? I must live in one of those funky parallel worlds.



, smart Americans will join us the stupid ones will stick with what they know and suffer as a result. Just as we dont market our products at white supremasists, terrorists and zionists[...]
I think you are getting far too off-topic here and I can already see this thread take a flaming end in jail or backyard...

[tageiru]

But that is my exact point, he is talking as if America has it right and the rest of the world is somehow backward where as the reverse is true. Other counties are leading opensource and america's corporate govenment is blocking the FOSS movement.
I think you are interpreting the presentation all wrong. Eben is well aware that FOSS is a global movement, but there have been a number of cases recently where some people state that FOSS is un-american and hurtful to american capitalism, Darl McBride, Ken Brown...

Eben is retorting to that, nothing else.

[curuxz]

Would like them to be onboard? Hello, there is already much code from american developers everywhere in Free Software. Do you mean you would be able to run the linux kernel or Ubuntu without the code of american Free Software developers? I must live in one of those funky parallel worlds.


I am not talking about american developers or american users of linux i was refering, quite clearly I believe, to anyone so simple minded that adding the word american to an idea would be enough to totaly change their point of view. Yes we want the americans smart enough to find us but I dont think any of us want the people so simple minded that they cant even make their own educated choices regardless of their country.

I dont think this should end up the backyard we are having a nice discussion about how someone who is respected and how he has, in my view, dumbed down his key note speech to an offensive level.

I still hold my view that Foss is most clearly identifiable with communist pricipals because while the single user can not make a change the bulk community as a whole is in charge again a communist idea of majority rules not Bill Gates in charges, I really dont understand the fear of accepting that pitching everything in for free is socalist, I personaly am a liberal but have no problem with foss since its a working commune of thousends of minds some using other contributing and most doing both.

Finaly to the McBride, Ken Brown point, I think he has been massively misguided by taking such a no your anti-american we are pro-american stance on this issue. Instead of retorting by attacking their model or distorting the true image of ours he should have commented on impact. They said it was anti-american and that it was damaging america, he should have said its an idea, that actauly fits well with the american idea of liberty (not its pro-american, because foss is not pro-anything other than pro-foss) and that it was helping america grow not damaging it. He spent to much time disbuting the root causes instead of saying the truth about the impact of foss.

I really dont want this to end up the backyard because I believe we are just having a nice, all be it slightly heated, chat about this speech :)

[asimon]

I am not talking about american developers or american users of linux i was refering, quite clearly I believe, to anyone so simple minded that adding the word american to an idea would be enough to totaly change their point of view.
Once again, that was not simple minded. Some big spindoctors say that Free Software is anti-american. Moglen made clear that this is not true, that in fact Free Software is very in line with values which are often cited as 'american'. That isn't offensive to other countries and doesn't imply that it's a american only thing. For example the Freedom Free Software offers is also very compatible to the ideas of the french revolution.



Yes we want the americans smart enough to find us but I dont think any of us want the people so simple minded that they cant even make their own educated choices regardless of their country.
No matter how we want people, we can't change them overnight (my hope lies in genetic engineering) and have to deal with them today. If a good movement gets attacked by american companies as anti-american don't you think it's reasonable to defend these good ideas and make clear that this anti-american claim is not only wrong, but that the opposite is true?



I still hold my view that Foss is most clearly identifiable with communist pricipals because while the single user can not make a change the bulk community as a whole is in charge again a communist idea of majority rules not Bill Gates in charges, I really dont understand the fear of accepting that pitching everything in for free is socalist, I personaly am a liberal but have no problem with foss since its a working commune of thousends of minds some using other contributing and most doing both.
But it's wrong, not even the majority is in charge. The number of developers is very small compared to the number of non-developer users. And there are even different classes in the community. You can't say that Free Software is like communism when you pick one single idea of communism out and lconstruct some similarities. There are many other things, ideas and principles of communism, which Free Software doesn't support. So why not taking that angle and say it's not communism because it doesn't want for example remove private property?



Finaly to the McBride, Ken Brown point, I think he has been massively misguided by taking such a no your anti-american we are pro-american stance on this issue. Instead of retorting by attacking their model or distorting the true image of ours he should have commented on impact. They said it was anti-american and that it was damaging america, he should have said its an idea, that actauly fits well with the american idea of liberty (not its pro-american, because foss is not pro-anything other than pro-foss) and that it was helping america grow not damaging it. He spent to much time disbuting the root causes instead of saying the truth about the impact of foss.

He made some comments on the impact, but evidently it wasn't the main topic of his keynode. Given the audience of the Red Hat Summit it makes sense to not go into too much detail about the impact and advantages of Fee Software, they already know about it very well.

And I think that if it helps america (through all the reasons he numerated) it's perfectly fine to use the term pro-america. Why not? Pro-america doesn't mean against europe or something like that. You seem to lay much bad weight/interpretation in his word choice.