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PuddingKnife
January 24th, 2012, 04:34 PM
"The desktop remains central to our everyday work and play, despite all the excitement around tablets, TV’s and phones. So it’s exciting for us to innovate in the desktop too, especially when we find ways to enhance the experience of both heavy “power” users and casual users at the same time. The desktop will be with us for a long time, and for those of us who spend hours every day using a wide diversity of applications, here is some very good news: 12.04 LTS will include the first step in a major new approach to application interfaces.

This work grows out of observations of new and established / sophisticated users making extensive use of the broader set of capabilities in their applications. We noticed that both groups of users spent a lot of time, relatively speaking, navigating the menus of their applications, either to learn about the capabilities of the app, or to take a specific action. We were also conscious of the broader theme in Unity design of leading from user intent. And that set us on a course which lead to today’s first public milestone on what we expect will be a long, fruitful and exciting journey.

The menu has been a central part of the GUI since Xerox PARC invented ‘em in the 70′s. It’s the M in WIMP and has been there, essentially unchanged, for 30 years."

via Mark Shuttleworth (http://markshuttleworth.com)

Over at OMG! Ubuntu, Joey Sneddon conducts and interview (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/hud-new-unity-feature/) with John Lea, leader of the Ubuntu desktop design team.

What do you guys think?

lz1dsb
January 24th, 2012, 05:06 PM
Looks quite interesting to me. It's like Dashboard but for application menu.
I wouldn't replace the menus with HUD though... If it's more as a supplement, it could be quite interesting and convenient once you get a used to it. But replacing the menus entirely... I don't think so.
What would happen if I don't know exactly what I'm looking for? With a menu I could just "browse" all of the options.
Still the question remains about the integration with the apps themselfs. In 11.10 there're still some issues with the "global menu", for some apps it just doesn't work...
Let's hope also that Unity will be growing more and more stable in the next cycles...

Paqman
January 24th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Hmmm, could have potential, but you'd want to have a play before making any pronouncements. As long as the traditional menus were still available it would be good. Exploring the menus is a good way of finding out what a program is capable of, without having a hunt around there might be features you'd never know about.

BigSilly
January 24th, 2012, 06:12 PM
This looks really good indeed. Very innovative, and ultimately, extremely useful. Looking forward to this very much in 12.04. :)

Dragonbite
January 24th, 2012, 07:15 PM
Next step afterwards is making it voice-activated!

An interesting idea, but still not sure about it yet. It may be they are moving almost too fast, not letting people get comfortable with Unity before adding this on top of it.

sffvba[e0rt
January 24th, 2012, 07:24 PM
I think this is really cool, 12.04 installed in VBox, updating with Unity 5 and then going to give the HUD a whirl.

I suspect that this won't need any modification on the applications side, it simply has to be able to index the menu's and run what is selected so I suspect it will have universal application support (with some more application specific functions built in for music etc.)


404

BrokenKingpin
January 24th, 2012, 07:25 PM
I don't really like it. I honestly don't have issues with the menus in the applications I use. I want the applications to manage it's own menus, and I want Unity to leave them alone.

Erik1984
January 24th, 2012, 07:26 PM
I think we all ddos'ed Shuttleworth :P: "The connection has timed out" :(

PuddingKnife
January 24th, 2012, 08:10 PM
I don't really like it. I honestly don't have issues with the menus in the applications I use. I want the applications to manage it's own menus, and I want Unity to leave them alone.

HUD is in addition to menus. Although, I've seen speculation that if HUD takes off, menus could theoretically be phased out.

sffvba[e0rt
January 24th, 2012, 08:41 PM
Well, 5 minutes of quickly playing the HUD in a VBox install has shown me that it seems to need some configuring for an application to work with it (LibreOffice Writer for instance didn't seem to work with it at the moment) and the second thing is it isn't as simple to use as the video's makes it look. There will be a learning curve with this (as is with most things I guess).

Will be following its progress with interest.


404

V for Vincent
January 24th, 2012, 08:42 PM
I like what I see so far. Will gladly give it a spin once it's officially released. I'm a big fan of application launchers à la Synapse or Dash, so I'm not too worried about switching between keyboard and mouse, as some are.

keithpeter
January 24th, 2012, 09:24 PM
Well, 5 minutes of quickly playing the HUD in a VBox install has shown me that it seems to need some configuring for an application to work with it

HUD can only work with applications that support the global menu, i.e. which are written using some kind of gtk standard widget. LibreOffice keeps its own interface including its own local window menus, so no HUD.

The first few searches seem a bit random, and sometimes the function you want floats away... but it does adapt quite quickly.

sffvba[e0rt
January 24th, 2012, 09:28 PM
HUD can only work with applications that support the global menu, i.e. which are written using some kind of gtk standard widget. LibreOffice keeps its own interface including its own local window menus, so no HUD.

The first few searches seem a bit random, and sometimes the function you want floats away... but it does adapt quite quickly.

Ah cool, thanks for the info (I was suspecting something like that).


404

LowSky
January 24th, 2012, 10:35 PM
I don't need voice command. No one does. It just adds to noise pollution. Yes it will be a nice feature to pull a Star Trek, and go "Computer________" But in day to day activity I don't need voice commands.

Is Canonical just trying to 1-up Apple at this point? I don't see these changes being in anyway more helpful. It just sounds like a extra disk space to fill. Plus I rather click a link than try to type it out. What if I don't know what I'm really looking for in the menu?

ZarathustraDK
January 24th, 2012, 11:44 PM
Very interesting idea IMO. If it can substitue the global menu when mature enough then that would be awesome.

@the "what if I don't know the possible menus?" one could imagine that doing "Super+something" could bring up an overview of possible menu-items for the program in the HUD, allowing first-time users to familiarize themselves with the options before doing it the quick way.

All in all, this is an awesome thing that needs to happen IMHO. Gains of the top of my head:

- We can achieve 100% vertical screen real-estate and an end to the never-ending Fitt's Law-bickering.
- Attain a proper framework/standard for feeding voice-commands to a computer without relying on application-built-in capabilities.
- Faster workflow.
- It would be a dream come true for visually challenged/disabled people; yeah, there are application solutions to this on other systems, but they were never built in from the get-go, and in the end the system itself would still be menu-based, causing problems for people with these sort of ailments.
- Identity, bold move, uniqueness etc., which is important these days, like it or not, in order to not be perceived as obsolete.

...and that's only scratching the surface I think. Human-computer interaction over time is a wave that alternates between human-centric (computers should function like humans do) and machine-centric computing (Humans should function like machines do) over time as technology enables us to do new stuff and make us revisit old ideas. This HUD-idea is like walking into a stonage-village with a backpack full of 21st century tech, the potential for improvement is staggering.

Hell yeah I'm psyched :D

neu5eeCh
January 25th, 2012, 01:44 AM
None of Ubuntu's innovations have offered me any advantages over the old text menu paradigm - HUD's pretty eye-candy doesn't sway me.

Synapse requires fewer key strokes than the launcher, for example.

If there are menu items that I use frequently (I mainly word process) hotkeys are quicker and easier to remember since I'm the one who assigned them. I have no problem adopting new technologies and paradigms if they really help and improve efficiency, but that hasn't yet been the case with any of Ubuntu's innovations. The launcher is really nothing more than another panel -- a glorified version of Gnome 2's bottom panel moved to the left. The global menu doesn't offer a single advantage and is actually a disadvantage in certain situations.

At best, I suspect that HUD will be a wash in terms of efficiency and ease of use - advantages in some areas, disadvantages in others, which hardly makes it a compelling feature -- candy-slick though it may be.

EDIT: The most efficient desktop, in my opinion, is the one that can be customized to suit the user's needs. Hotkeys provide this sort of customization. From what I can see (given Shuttleworth's stated intention to do away with menus altogether) he is going in precisely the opposite direction.

sixstorm
January 25th, 2012, 01:47 AM
It's nice but I don't see it taking over the old point and click solution we've had for years. Seems like it would take longer to type it out than to find the menu item.

sffvba[e0rt
January 25th, 2012, 08:35 AM
It's nice but I don't see it taking over the old point and click solution we've had for years. Seems like it would take longer to type it out than to find the menu item.

Ever started to look for some obscure menu entry in the Gimp which you know is some place but your just not sure where :)


404

DeadSuperHero
January 25th, 2012, 10:31 AM
I sure hope this is optional. It's a nice idea, and I'm glad to see the designers and developers try a new approach, but I feel like a crotchety old person now. I like my clicky menus, please don't take them away.

Paqman
January 25th, 2012, 11:56 AM
HUD can only work with applications that support the global menu, i.e. which are written using some kind of gtk standard widget. LibreOffice keeps its own interface including its own local window menus, so no HUD.


Well that'll need sorting. You can't have a pre-installed default app that doesn't work with a core feature of the OS.

Paqman
January 25th, 2012, 11:59 AM
I sure hope this is optional.

This is Linux. Everything is optional.

gutterslob
January 25th, 2012, 12:08 PM
No idea what to think. I had assumed Ubuntu was interested in moving to a more tablet-like interface (presumably because they seem to want to release a tablet OS in the near future), but then you get something heavily keyboard driven like this HUD interface all of a sudden. I'm all for a keyboard-centric desktop experience (I use tiling WMs more often these days) but I'm not sure what kind of user this is supposed to target. The Inkscape part in particular seemed clunky and jarring.

From my point of view, this kind of looks like a hybrid/bast*rdization of dmenu + gnome-do, albeit one that'll probably use much more memory and CPU horsepower. Then again, I'm not the type of user Ubuntu/Unity targets. If it's welcomed by the Unity-centric crowd, then more power to them.

Grenage
January 25th, 2012, 12:14 PM
It looks like that it will be useful in certain situations, and useless in others. I currently use Fedora for Gnome Shell (I really like it), but I'd give it a whirl on the laptop.

xyzzyman
January 25th, 2012, 02:39 PM
I predict rg4w is about to post...

PuddingKnife
January 25th, 2012, 02:45 PM
I think what's happening here is that for years, Linux basically emulated the looks of 90s era Windows desktops, because that's what people knew and were used to working with.

We haven't witnessed a terribly large amount of innovation or new ideas in the way that people interact with their desktops. There are a wide array of desktop environments available to the Linux user, but until Gnome Shell and Ubunu's Unity made their appearance, most DE's were still trying to perfect the desktop that Microsoft created and popularized during it's halcyon days 20 years ago.

That Unity and Gnome Shell have both attempted to try something new, and have been met with loud opposition while attempting to bring their users into a new modern era of Linux computing strikes me as the typical schizophrenic nature of the free software world.
We simultaneously want a broader adoption of our beloved niche OS while kicking and screaming about things that will bring new users into the fold.

Bug #1 isn't about copying the MS/Apple approach while offering less functionality than the Big 2, it's about growing and maturing into it's own thing; a worthy competitor to the main 2 ways of using a computer. Gnome Shell, Unity and HUD all offer dynamically different ways to interact with our hardware, and I think we should at least embrace innovation and encourage new ideas all the time.

Canonical is attempting this innovation. So is the Gnome Foundation. I think Linux users owe it to these developers and themselves to work together and really make Ubuntu, and Linux as a whole, something unique and exciting to try and use.

/rant

rg4w
January 25th, 2012, 02:53 PM
As an *addition* to menus the HUD is a very exciting prospect.

But one article referred to it as an eventual *replacement* for menus, which most research to date suggests would be a mistake. Menus aren't perfect and there's plenty of room for innovation, but typing isn't an adequate replacement.

Fortunately, outside of one hopefully-mistaken author I've seen nothing in the project notes themselves which suggest Canonical wants to do away with menus.

I'd feel more confident about this if we could have the current menu bar visible again by default. Concealing the primary command interface from the user until they discover that it's there but merely hidden is an odd choice for which it's hard to imagine any disciplined research supports. It makes it more difficult for new users to learn what commands are available, and experienced users take longer to acquire the muscle memory to use menus effectively.

I understand that Canonical reportedly does A/B prototype testing from time to time, but thus far the only published user testing results I've found have not included such tests. It would help us gain confidence with these innovations if Canonical would publish more of the research supporting them.

That said, as an *addition* to menus this does look pretty cool, and will be very helpful for power users, esp. those who previously felt that Unity's innovations were leaving the serious user behind. The HUD clearly demonstrates that the design team very much has the full spectrum of users in mind.

grahammechanical
January 25th, 2012, 03:16 PM
I would be willing to road-test a HUD enabled Ubuntu tablet PC. I think that is the intended place for a Heads Up Display. How does a person use gesture recognition to input a web address in a browser, for example?

Before 11.04 I used the Alt key and the arrow keys to navigate a structured menu system. For most of the last year I have been learning to use the mouse to work with the Launcher, the Dash and the app indicators. Now, I have got to go back to using Alt and the arrow keys again. And I wonder if I need HUD.

I have installed HUD and when you install it you will think that it has not been installed because you do not even know it is there and it does not do much.

I have found that a finger tap on the Super key will bring up the Dash, whilst holding down the Super key will bring up a pane/lens showing the keyboard short-cuts.

With an application open a press on the Alt key may or may not bring up a search panel to use with that application. But apart from the lack of applications that work with HUD it is very difficult to get a response from a press on the Alt key. It seems as if its response to an Alt key press is pressure sensitive. Bash hard on the key and HUD will pop up. Press softly and it is a no show.

Regards.

Peter09
January 25th, 2012, 06:47 PM
I would have to say again, that the 'one/two clicks on the menu is much simpler' brigade ignore the considerable effort (both physically and mentally) that it takes to navigate a mouse pointer. This tends to be due to the fact that those posting here have mastered driving a mouse and fail to see the problems with it.

Watching a new user learning to use a mouse is interesting for the amount of concentration it takes, there is a good reason why people who have to use an application intensely learn shortcuts. Add to that the physical demands - resulting in afflictions such as Carpal Tunnel Syndrome highlight that the mouse is not a perfect device.

Somewhere on the internet ( I cannot find it at the moment) is a report regarding the use of an email application. Basically it looked at two groups of users, those that managed their emails by using folders to segregate emails and those that did not sort emails, but used the search functions of their email application. The conclusion was that searching provided a faster and more effective way of working. The search functionality of Thunderbird for instance is fantastic.

I think this points very much to the idea that we should use the power of the computers of today to provide the information we need (menus, files, emails, content) rather than the dated dive in a find it yourself concept.

While the HUD will succeed or fail very much on how it is implemented I welcome the idea of moving away from the flawed point and click ideal and the development of tools that reduce the management and increase the efficiency of the interface.

KiwiNZ
January 25th, 2012, 07:00 PM
HUD will have it's place as additional functionality. I wonder if it will generate the same level of "ubuntu is doomed" posts that Unity and moving those three little buttons from right to left.

rg4w
January 25th, 2012, 07:51 PM
HUD will have it's place as additional functionality. I wonder if it will generate the same level of "ubuntu is doomed" posts that Unity and moving those three little buttons from right to left.
Probably not, because the HUD is an option that one can choose to use or not as they prefer, but no preference setting was provided for the window controls (though IMNSHO the window controls were a much smaller issue than the discussion around it <g>).

thatguruguy
January 25th, 2012, 08:17 PM
HUD will have it's place as additional functionality. I wonder if it will generate the same level of "ubuntu is doomed" posts that Unity and moving those three little buttons from right to left.

I've already drafted my "The HUD is the worst thing ever, and I'm going back to Windows!" rant. I'll post it as soon as the HUD officially launches.

I've also drafted my "The HUD is awesome, you're just too old/stupid/misinformed/paid-by-Microsoft to use and appreciate it!" rant, just in case other people beat me to the anti-HUD punch. That way, I've got all my bases covered.

keithpeter
January 25th, 2012, 08:17 PM
No idea what to think. I had assumed Ubuntu was interested in moving to a more tablet-like interface (presumably because they seem to want to release a tablet OS in the near future), but then you get something heavily keyboard driven like this HUD interface all of a sudden

Hello gutterslob

John Lea describes the results of user testing HUD thus...


"Initially the HUD started as a power user feature, aimed at improving the experience of tech-savvy users who make full use of applications but use too many apps (and adopt new apps too quickly) to remember every shortcut key."
--OMG Ubuntu article (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/hud-new-unity-feature/)

Lea has an interesting job title "Head of Desktop and TV".

I think Canonical are trying to bolt on functionality for large screen users so that a single UI can ultimately cover tablets -> 30 inch triple monitors. I think HUD was designed for a specific group. Might be used in other ways of course.

PS:Inkscape was a strange choice because you can't access toolbar based functions via the HUD.

keithpeter
January 25th, 2012, 08:19 PM
This is Linux. Everything is optional.

:twisted:this^^^

KiwiNZ
January 25th, 2012, 08:41 PM
i've already drafted my "the hud is the worst thing ever, and i'm going back to windows!" rant. I'll post it as soon as the hud officially launches.

I've also drafted my "the hud is awesome, you're just too old/stupid/misinformed/paid-by-microsoft to use and appreciate it!" rant, just in case other people beat me to the anti-hud punch. That way, i've got all my bases covered.

Awesome

beesthorpe
January 25th, 2012, 09:36 PM
The BBC have just posted a brief article about this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16731071

Copper Bezel
January 26th, 2012, 12:45 AM
Damn. So many strong opinions, and I hate to throw fuel on the fire. But....

I like it. I like search-based tools, and the fuzzy, semantic matching and preferential treatment of frequently-selected items will basically mean that the menu system for every app feels built for whatever you do with it, without ever having to customize anything. When you commonly use 15 out of 200 options in a menu system and frequently forget where this or that app has stuffed a particular dialogue, something like this is going to be brilliant.

It's going to be difficult to devise something similarly fluid and pretty for touch interfaces, but I appreciate the love for the keyboard.

I've been under the impression that just about everything could be improved by throwing a Search / Recent box at it, but this is one I hadn't thought of. Good show.

Edit: I mean, this is one case where I don't think we can say that Canonical is trying to solve a problem that no one has. The problem's pretty clear, and I think the solution is clever.

aaaantoine
January 26th, 2012, 03:06 AM
I will say this. I like Unity, save for some quirks, because it closely reflects how I want my desktop laid out.

As stated earlier, the HUD would serve better to complement the existing drop-down menu operation than to replace it. If there is no way to navigate options via mouse-only control, Canonical will anger a lot of people.

I also still hold fast to my conviction that the menu widget -- be it drop-down, HUD, or both -- should somehow still be attached directly to the original window. The most annoying thing about auto-hiding the menu options in the top bar is that I now have to consciously hit that top bar to check if any options are available on a given window, an exercise which often results in me moving the mouse to check the bar, then moving the mouse to confirm that the window I want options on is selected, then moving the mouse once more to check again.

3rdalbum
January 26th, 2012, 05:51 AM
I've already drafted my "The HUD is the worst thing ever, and I'm going back to Windows!" rant. I'll post it as soon as the HUD officially launches.

I've also drafted my "The HUD is awesome, you're just too old/stupid/misinformed/paid-by-Microsoft to use and appreciate it!" rant, just in case other people beat me to the anti-HUD punch. That way, I've got all my bases covered.

Even if you're six months too late to be among the first "The HUD is the worst thing ever and I'm going back to Windows!" ranters, you can still post your rant. Everyone else does :-)

mastergkage
January 26th, 2012, 06:09 AM
maybe they will give us an option on weather to turn the hud on or off, or if we want to use the old menu or not but using the hud this can work in a faster navigating.

3rdalbum
January 26th, 2012, 06:09 AM
I'm surprised I've heard a lot of people saying "But I'll have to take my hand off the mouse!".

On a laptop/notebook/netbook/ultrabook, if you haven't got a mouse plugged in, your hands sit only a few centimeters from the keyboard in the worse-case scenario of doing mousy-things. Using a trackpad to access menu items is difficult - it could take several full swipes up the trackpad to get to the menu. The HUD will be indispensible for removing all this movement.

Copper Bezel
January 26th, 2012, 06:56 AM
Well, that depends on the trackpad and configuration. On my netbook trackpad, a swipe from edge to edge is roughly equal to a swipe from screen edge to screen edge, up and down or left to right, so reaching the top of the screen is rarely onerous.

With that said, it's also usually easier to switch between the trackpad and keyboard on a notebook, so the problem becomes less important.

I do wonder if the HUD will eventually include more mousy elements, though. Unity makes an effort to work by mouse-only or keyboard-only in most situations, and in a consistent way. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a future version with Dash-style "categories" consisting of the menu names, so that the if the user clicks instead of searching, it becomes like the old menus, but with bigger click targets and one extra click to get to them (like the Dash.) Like the Dash, it would be the mouse-driven alternative that would also be functional under touch input.

click4851
January 26th, 2012, 09:08 AM
looks like a solution in search of a problem, reminds me of unity. Good luck with that.

KiwiNZ
January 26th, 2012, 09:15 AM
Gosh we got to page 5 before the inevitable

BigSilly
January 26th, 2012, 09:43 AM
On the BBC tech news page, here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16731071). Nice to see Ubuntu take such a prominent space on the BBC technology pages, but not surprising. ;)

EDIT: Already posted. Sorry 'bout that.

fellgrrl
January 26th, 2012, 05:44 PM
I was horrified when I read about this plan. The reason I have Ubuntu installed on my laptop is because I hate the way that Windows7 tries to second guess what I am trying to do and behaves inconsistently.

An optional HUD is OK but replacing the menus would drive me into the arms of another LINUX distro.

Dragonbite
January 26th, 2012, 05:58 PM
An optional HUD is OK but replacing the menus would drive me into the arms of another LINUX distro.

There are plenty of distributions and desktop environments to choose from.

forrestcupp
January 26th, 2012, 06:18 PM
Say hello to the Head-Up Display, or HUD, which will ultimately replace menus in Unity applications.HUD is cool, but if you "ultimately replace menus" that will be the dumbest move ever. Sure, I don't mind having the choice to use it. But there are a lot of times when I don't want to have to be forced to switch from my mouse to typing on the keyboard just because they thought it would be cool to get rid of the menus.


Next step afterwards is making it voice-activated!Voice activated would be cool. But what about if my little kid is trying to take a nap, or if I have laryngitis? It's still not a good solution to completely doing away with menus.

To the people who say "it's Linux; we have a choice," our choice may end up being to have to use a different DE or even a different distro.

lz1dsb
January 26th, 2012, 06:21 PM
Wow. From the BBC Tech news article:
"The Ubuntu operating system is to replace its application menus with a "head-up display" (HUD) box."
That doesn't sounds good. If HUD is optional - great, but forcing it to replace app menus entirely... I don't know. It just doesn't feel right...

PuddingKnife
January 26th, 2012, 06:38 PM
It's going to be optional at first. Perhaps for the next few iterations of Ubuntu, but Mark wishes to do away with traditional menus.

His only obstacle really, is discoverability and the option to still be able to browse the menu options.

If we take HUD's current functionality and judge future versions of Ubuntu on that, then we are being shortsighted.

rg4w
January 26th, 2012, 07:39 PM
Wow. From the BBC Tech news article:
"The Ubuntu operating system is to replace its application menus with a "head-up display" (HUD) box."
That doesn't sounds good. If HUD is optional - great, but forcing it to replace app menus entirely... I don't know. It just doesn't feel right...
Many years of research support your opinion.

Where's the research supporting replacing menus with the HUD?

I like the HUD, a lot. But only as an option. If it were a requirement it would raise questions about the design process that should make folks more than a little nervous.

sanderella
January 26th, 2012, 08:33 PM
I'm an old lady, and I don't like too much change. The sound of HUD scares me. Am I going to be able to manage it? :confused:

BigSilly
January 26th, 2012, 08:48 PM
I'm a bit confused though. I didn't realise the intention was to have this instead of menus. I think it would make a nice optional thing, but I can't see it replacing menus for many types of user altogether.

Copper Bezel
January 26th, 2012, 09:36 PM
The HUD won't replace the menus until the discoverability problem is solved. That's all right in the blog post:


There’s still a lot of design and code still to do. For a start, we haven’t addressed the secondary aspect of the menu, as a visible map of the functionality in an app. That discoverability is of course entirely absent from the HUD; the old menu is still there for now, but we’d like to replace it altogether not just supplement it. And all the other patterns of interaction we expect in the HUD remain to be explored.

So yes, it will replace the menus, and no, not in its present form.

The only research so far is the accidental realization that new users were getting more out of it than out of the menus. It was originally intended as a supplement for power users, but now that they're thinking in this direction, they can start to build in those other features and do real testing on it. You can't test something before it exists.

I would anticipate something very much like the Dash categories, so that before you start typing, you can click into or scrub through the menus. It will be slower (involving more clicks) than the old menus, but also have larger click targets, particularly useful for touch systems.

And again, this is something that started with a well-defined problem to solve. Menu categories are highly inconsistent across applications, making functions difficult to find, and they require more precise clicks than Unity is working toward. We also already know that Microsoft has given up on menu bars in their in-house applications for several years now.

Edit: That sounds angry. I don't mean to be. Just don't try and shoot this one down out of the gate, because it really could be a very good idea. It could also be terrible. Time will tell.

KiwiNZ
January 26th, 2012, 09:46 PM
I'm an old lady, and I don't like too much change. The sound of HUD scares me. Am I going to be able to manage it? :confused:

I am not exactly a spring chicken anymore and I always look forward to change. It is what makes life great.

keithpeter
January 26th, 2012, 11:50 PM
The only research so far is the accidental realization that new users were getting more out of it than out of the menus. It was originally intended as a supplement for power users, but now that they're thinking in this direction, they can start to build in those other features and do real testing on it.

While continuing to meet the needs of the 'power' users I hope. Something rich enough to support a verb-noun-modifier construct like vim, or quicksilver (Mac OS). When menus wither and fall away, the accelerator keys will as well.

3ldi5
January 27th, 2012, 12:30 AM
I don't need voice command. No one does. It just adds to noise pollution. Yes it will be a nice feature to pull a Star Trek, and go "Computer________" But in day to day activity I don't need voice commands.

Is Canonical just trying to 1-up Apple at this point? I don't see these changes being in anyway more helpful. It just sounds like a extra disk space to fill. Plus I rather click a link than try to type it out. What if I don't know what I'm really looking for in the menu?

+1 to this.

I just can't believe what things are categorised as being "innovative", "progressive" or whatever, in 21st century.
In what dimension it is easier and more intuitive, to TYPE a command than to POINT-CLICK it. Isn't a typing kind of thing that held Linux back for many years. I know I'm banalizing things, but really it's just as simple as that.
Just imagine productive work with complicated hundreds-of-commands kind of software with this HUD thing. I can't. And more painfully, imagine yourself learning this kind of programs. Even if this is gonna be implemented just as an addon to classic menus, I don't see any point in it. But knowing mr. Shuttleworth, I wouldn't be surprised if they totally wipe out menus till 13.04 version...
It seems like Canonical guys are lost in some alternative timeline, some different reality, with different rules and evolution. They are forcing "innovations" just for the sake of innovating, it seems. And they don't *care* about community opinion. Because if they do, none of this (first Unity, and now HUD) things would happen.

And to be honest, I don't feel sorry anymore for Canonical and for Ubuntu, for the things to come. I was literally in love with 10.04, and a bit less with 10.10 edition. And I was frustrated when Unity first appeared. But now, I'm almost totally disinterested in this distro future.

KiwiNZ
January 27th, 2012, 12:36 AM
I don't need voice command. No one does. It just adds to noise pollution. Yes it will be a nice feature to pull a Star Trek, and go "Computer________" But in day to day activity I don't need voice commands.



What about disabled users ?

JayKay3OOO
January 27th, 2012, 01:13 AM
Something that has been implemented in Windows Vista/7 for a while now.

The concept has been taken a step further and it looks good. If this is part of the forward progress of Ubuntu then it's certainly a step we could do with.

I use the search in the menus all the time because I don't always remember where things are located in a big menu so it's always easier to do a search for it. As long as it does not end up with a lot of time consuming re-calculations every time you install something then it could be quite cool.

Voice command is OK, but not that great if you need to do an assignment at 3am and your house m8s are sleeping while you shout 'NEXT LINE!', no not 'text underline!'. I said 'NEXT... LINE!', what, why the hell are you typing 'Text Nile'!!.
Knock, Knock
'Yeah'
'Dude, we have to work at 7am'
'Yeah, and I've got to do an assignment'
'Whatever. You had weeks to do it.'
'I'll stick it in whisper mode. How about that?'
'Whatever, just quit shouting man'
'I'm on 0.7'
'Ouch, sux man. 0.7 is really buggy. 0.8 is way slicker'
'Right, thanks...'
'No problem, but the servers are down right now. Probably ran 0.7
'Well... ...thanks anyway'
'No problem. Night!'
'Eh, I ain't sleeping'
'Hah,hah. well... good luck then'
'....Thanks'
Clunk
'Sigh'
'0.7 was supposed to fix bugs of 0.6 and now 0.8 is fixing bugs of 0.7. Eat this!'
Click

rg4w
January 27th, 2012, 01:46 AM
It seems like Canonical guys are lost in some alternative timeline, some different reality, with different rules and evolution. They are forcing "innovations" just for the sake of innovating, it seems. And they don't *care* about community opinion. Because if they do, none of this (first Unity, and now HUD) things would happen.
That paragraph resonates with me, not because I agree with it but because it articulates a lot about community perceptions, and perceptions are important.

I would love nothing more than to see Ubuntu reach the goal of 200 million users, but there's such a long distance between here and there that I feel the goal can only be reached if we all pull together with a sense of, if you will, unity.

It's in Canonical's interest to address the needs and desires of long-time loyal fans as much as the many-times-greater new audience to come, because it's the current fan base that will drive much of that future adoption. We may be relative geeks (as is anyone who even considers the bizarre notion of replacing the OS that came with their computer with something they downloaded off the Internet), but we have blogs, we speak at conferences, we publish articles -- as Geoff Moore points out in his book "Crossing the Chasm", if you make the geeks happy they'll carry you to the larger, more gentrified audience.

I think the HUD is a clear demonstration of high regard for the power user, and as long as Canonical allows users to choose whether to use menus or the HUD it's an unquestionable winner. This thread bears that out: at first it was seen as an "also" and was universally applauded, but only when BBC referred to it as a "replacement" did hopes sour.

With both the HUD and with Unity, very few take exception with the goals being addressed, but all too often the goals aren't clearly conveyed so it can look to some like a disconnect between the design leadership at Canonical and the desires of the current user base. People just see new stuff show up in the distro and they wonder what's going on.

I had a brief exchange with Mr. Shuttleworth in the comments of a blog some weeks ago, in which I noted the relative rarity of usability research being published from Canonical and Mark offered assurance that indeed there is much more testing and research going on than is widely known by folks outside the company.

Reflecting on that in light of your comments, I can't help but wonder if there's a role waiting to be filled, a sort of Community Usability Liaison, who could stay in touch with the usability team at Canonical and provide summaries of the work being done to the community.

This would let the Canonical team stay focused on doing the work they do, and leave the evangelism of that work to the Liaison to address questions and concerns in the community, and to make sure folks have an opportunity to more easily understand the reasoning behind new design initiatives.

Maybe another useful role for such a Liaison would be to provide feedback from the community to Canonical's design team, which of course wouldn't substitute for user testing but would augment it on a broad level by keeping the communication two-way.

We see good coordination between Canonical and the community in technical development; is there such a role currently being done for design as well?

Dragonbite
January 27th, 2012, 02:45 PM
I wonder if they will have an entry for "thingy"

I want to do that "thingy" with the file.

It will be interesting, and eventually it may take the place of point-and-click menues, but is Canoncial smart to put a lot of effort into this?

Copper Bezel
January 27th, 2012, 04:30 PM
We don't really know how much effort they're putting in. Obviously, Canonical is putting a lot of its efforts into Unity more generally, just as improving the UI has been a major focus for them since long before Unity, and whether or not that's a good priority is a fair question, but I think this effort is just an extension of that.

forrestcupp
January 27th, 2012, 05:52 PM
If we take HUD's current functionality and judge future versions of Ubuntu on that, then we are being shortsighted.



So yes, it will replace the menus, and no, not in its present form.It doesn't matter what they do to it in the long run. If I am forced to let go of my mouse and type, it's going to suck. It might be tolerable (but not preferable) on a touch screen, but not a normal desktop with a mouse.


I would anticipate something very much like the Dash categories, so that before you start typing, you can click into or scrub through the menus. It will be slower (involving more clicks) than the old menus, but also have larger click targets, particularly useful for touch systems.If they integrated something like this where it's possible to navigate to an option before having to type, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.


What about disabled users ?What about people who have speech impediments or disabled voices? If it's an option, that's great. If it's forced, it's not great.

mvblair
January 27th, 2012, 06:21 PM
I just read the BBC article about the HUD thing. I am glad that the traditional menus will stay.

I am a lay-user. I know very little about computers. I don't open command menus, I don't program, I don't do anything besides use programs. I am the kind of user that the Ubuntu community is trying very hard to appeal to (and they have been successful).

I like Ubuntu because it is cleaner than Windows. It is easier to open my browser, my word processor, and my presentation maker with Ubuntu than with Windows. That's all I want. ...and maybe a video editor that I can use to burn videos of my daughter to a DVD.

I don't think I'll be able to use this new HUD thing. I'm sure it will be nice for advanced users who can go really fast, but it doesn't sound like something for me.

forrestcupp
January 27th, 2012, 07:24 PM
I don't think I'll be able to use this new HUD thing. I'm sure it will be nice for advanced users who can go really fast, but it doesn't sound like something for me.

The crazy thing is that it is meant for people like you. Instead of having to search through all of the options in all of the menus for what you want, you can just start typing something and it finds it for you. It's a great idea for an addition, just not for a complete replacement.

pelle.k
January 27th, 2012, 08:26 PM
I don't get it. OSX has already had this for quite som time now. It's not that revolutionary if you ask me. Or is this something different?
But it's great to be able to search the menu system for sure. I use it a lot on my mac.

http://i.imgur.com/ECoacl.jpg (http://imgur.com/ECoac)

Copper Bezel
January 27th, 2012, 08:27 PM
Similar, yes, but the implementation is different.

In any case, distinctions between "power users" and whatever else are irrelevant here, as they often are (and we're all "lay" users, in that few if any of the posters in this thread are devs.) There are experienced users who like to click and less experienced users who like to type. Again, even the form factor of the device has a bearing; on a notebook, you don't have to reach anywhere to switch between mouse and keyboard input.

forrestcupp, this isn't designed for tablets, and that's part of the problem. It would be extremely awkward for use with an onscreen keyboard. Again, I really do expect to see a Dash-like mouse interface for pointer-driven use. Past experience indicates it'll be glassy, cover a lot of the screen, and take a larger number of wider, sloppier clicks than the current menus. That version will be brilliant for tablets. And yeah, the mouse is likely to lose out.

forrestcupp
January 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
And yeah, the mouse is likely to lose out.

Which is the exact opposite of how the rest of the technical world has been going for some time. The trend has been away from the keyboard and toward not just the mouse, but pointing and interfacing devices of all types other than the keyboard. I think it's crazy for them to think it's time to remove the console, yet still drive us back to the keyboard for other things. We might as well stick with doing everything command line, or go back to the Commodore.

The only things I ever want to use the keyboard for are Facebook, Ubuntu Forums, MS Word, and emails.

JDShu
January 27th, 2012, 09:30 PM
I wonder if Canonical does any real usability testing before announcing this stuff? I'm reserving judgement about this particular feature, but I've become more and more convinced that they make these decisions "just because somebody high up thinks it's cool" instead of doing proper study.

Linuxratty
January 27th, 2012, 11:25 PM
I don't really like it. I honestly don't have issues with the menus in the applications I use. I want the applications to manage it's own menus, and I want Unity to leave them alone.

Same here.
Here is what I don't agree with:


They say that using the HUD is faster than "mousing through a menu

I disagree. I can mouse way faster than I can type.


"We observe people staying more engaged and more focused on their task when they can keep their hands on the keyboard all the time."

Some people,not all people.I prefer using the mouse over using the keyboard,so this makes it even less likely I'll ever use Ubuntu again.


What about people who have speech impediments or disabled voices? If it's an option, that's great. If it's forced, it's not great.

Agreed,or people who have the use of one arm and have to use a mouse...A set up like this will cause them to take forever to do simple things.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16731071

forrestcupp
January 28th, 2012, 03:02 AM
Some people,not all people.I prefer using the mouse over using the keyboard,so this makes it even less likely I'll ever use Ubuntu again.



You can still use Ubuntu. You'll just have to use Gnome Shell or some other DE. Unity will be the only thing affected by that nonsense.

click4851
January 28th, 2012, 03:52 AM
Sure, Like Mint with Cinnamon interface.

robsoles
January 28th, 2012, 04:13 AM
... "just because somebody high up thinks it's cool" instead of doing proper study.They mention some groups who behaved a certain way on their computers so that was their study and they conducted one.

If you are selective enough, and it helps to be charismatic enough, you can make a group of people agree with whatever you reckon is cool.

I often get the feeling I'm suffering from what some or other design specialist, engineer or programmer, decided would be best for everybody in the end - all by themselves.

I either lump it or go looking for alternatives I could lump (or, actually like!) instead.

Linuxratty
January 28th, 2012, 05:01 AM
You can still use Ubuntu. You'll just have to use Gnome Shell or some other DE. Unity will be the only thing affected by that nonsense.

Yeah,I'm really looking at Xubuntu quite frankly.Mint with Cinnamon interface could also be an option,if it plays nice with Compiz.
This just gets worse and worse..At least in my way of thinking.

Copper Bezel
January 28th, 2012, 06:44 AM
Which is the exact opposite of how the rest of the technical world has been going for some time. The trend has been away from the keyboard and toward not just the mouse, but pointing and interfacing devices of all types other than the keyboard. I think it's crazy for them to think it's time to remove the console, yet still drive us back to the keyboard for other things. We might as well stick with doing everything command line, or go back to the Commodore.

The only things I ever want to use the keyboard for are Facebook, Ubuntu Forums, MS Word, and emails.

forrestcupp, you're a very reasonable person, but you're exaggerating several things here, and you're missing the point in the margins. Bear with me, here.

The HUD we're looking at now is not a finished design, and it's not the version that will ever be a default; it's going to have some kind of pointer input method by the time that happens. This version of the HUD would be insane on a tablet, and I didn't actually say that pointing is losing out. I said that mice are losing out - and I mean particularly the ones with tails, but trackpads, too. New features are largely going to make concessions to touch interfaces, which means larger click targets, even if that means more mouse movement and more steps. Whatever solution Canonical presents, I really just think it'll be slightly less handy with a mouse, specifically, than the old menus were. This is closely comparable with the Dash, which sacrifices a little mouse handiness to gain keyboard and touch usability.

But what we have right now is the keyboard part. You mentioned the terminal, but even in its present form, the HUD is very Dashy, and nothing about the Dash feels like a terminal prompt; functionally, the Dash happens to do the same basic thing as a terminal prompt, but the idea comes from smart address bars in browsers. And Gnome Terminal is cool and all - it's modern software, too - but Tab completion is not the same thing as typing some random bit of the name or description of the thing you want and having a search result list populate as you type. Tab completion, notably, requires thinking.

While it's true that touch is getting popular and that apps are getting more visual and widgety, I still don't see a fad moving away from the keyboard. Computers tend to have keyboards, particularly computers that have mice, and people who use computers generally know how to use keyboards. Windows 95 had far fewer keyboard functions than Windows 7; if anything, thinking the keyboard is passé is passé. And seriously, everyone uses Ctrl+S; if more features can be reflex gestures like that, and be universal across all applications, then the keyboard just gets a bit more useful. By all means, if no one's using it for anything, now's a good time to jump on it.

The real trend is making interfaces accessible to new users who don't know a particular interface or app and making interfaces work a little harder to suss out what the user meant to do; it's a trend of conceding to inexperience or laziness by automation and habit tracking. The HUD follows that trend; learn it once, apply it in any application.

It's a niche tool right now. It really probably will get better and broader. It also, still, really might suck. But there's nothing innately bad or old about using keyboards, nothing to indicate that touch is going to be left out by the time Ubuntu on touchscreens or a default HUD is a thing, and nothing counter-trendy about this design. Remember, the menus still need to be redesigned for touch interfaces, anyway, to increase the click target size. I imagine this'll be the way in to doing that.

Warpnow
January 28th, 2012, 06:45 AM
It looks like gnome-do with a new name.

Copper Bezel
January 28th, 2012, 06:49 AM
Well, no, that was the Dash. = ) This is Gnome-Do with a new function.

forrestcupp
January 28th, 2012, 06:02 PM
forrestcupp, you're a very reasonable person, but you're exaggerating several things here, and you're missing the point in the margins.It's fair to say that I was exaggerating when I talked about going back to command line only or the Commodore. :)


The HUD we're looking at now is not a finished design, and it's not the version that will ever be a default; it's going to have some kind of pointer input method by the time that happens. This version of the HUD would be insane on a tablet, and I didn't actually say that pointing is losing out. I said that mice are losing out - and I mean particularly the ones with tails, but trackpads, too. New features are largely going to make concessions to touch interfaces, which means larger click targets, even if that means more mouse movement and more steps. Whatever solution Canonical presents, I really just think it'll be slightly less handy with a mouse, specifically, than the old menus were. This is closely comparable with the Dash, which sacrifices a little mouse handiness to gain keyboard and touch usability.I misunderstood what you meant when you said that the mouse will lose out. You're saying that the point and click menus in HUD may end up being larger to accommodate for touch screens, which will make you have to move the mouse around more. I can deal with that as long as it's still there.

The thing to remember is that no matter how popular tablets become, there will be a need for regular computers for a long time. So we can't just forget about the standard input methods because touch screen is becoming popular.

I understand that HUD will end up looking a lot different than it does now before they completely replace current menus. But do you actually have evidence or even rumors that they will be integrating point-and-click features into HUD, or is that just your speculation because it's logical? I'm not accusing you of anything; I'm just wondering if any further plans have been mentioned.

Copper Bezel
January 29th, 2012, 03:18 AM
I misunderstood what you meant when you said that the mouse will lose out. You're saying that the point and click menus in HUD may end up being larger to accommodate for touch screens, which will make you have to move the mouse around more. I can deal with that as long as it's still there.
Yeah, that's what I'm expecting. If HUD actually replaces the menus, it wouldn't just be reasonable to include a mouse-driven option - it would be unreasonable not to. The blog post notes that the "discoverability" problem needs to be solved, and I really think it'll be solved by a still-mouse/touch-driven, still-browsable adaptation of the existing menu structure. Again, the Dash points to an easy model for how that might look.

But no, I don't know anything that's not in the blog post. I just assume that Canonical knows at least as much as I do about what needs to happen there.

Welly Wu
January 29th, 2012, 11:58 AM
It depends upon how it is implemented. I think it is an innovative idea whose time has finally come as I would much prefer to use this new HUD rather than searching for specific functions within a menu system for every software application that I use. I can type much faster than use my mouse. It would appeal to power users like myself that want a more responsive and intuitive way of using their computers, but it will be a total shock for new Ubuntu users that are used to using Microsoft Windows or Apple Macintosh OS X to find out that the menus are all gone and they have to memorize a bunch of esoteric commands to get their computers to work. I think that it should remain optional to use as a setting within the system settings window. I would use the HUD all of the time because I get the idea behind the concept and I like it in principle. It would make my life using Ubuntu much easier. I think that this will eventually creep into the standard features list by Ubuntu 14.04 LTS though. Canonical and Shuttleworth are trying very hard to create and market an unique product that spans across many form factors in order to increase the Ubuntu user base. I think that Ubuntu and other major GNU/Linux distributions will always be niche products used by a small minority of people worldwide because Linux users have a technical skill level that is generally much higher than your average computer user.

I am looking forward to Ubuntu 12.04 64 bit LTS and I will definitely use the HUD feature as much as possible.

malspa
January 29th, 2012, 12:29 PM
It depends upon how it is implemented.


I think that it should remain optional to use as a setting within the system settings window.

Sorry to carve up your post, Welly Wu, but those two sentences kinda sum things up for me.

I'll go into it with the same kind of attitude that I had with Unity and GNOME Shell (both of which I like, as things turned out); I'll keep an open mind, but if I don't like it, hey, it's Linux, I'll install some other DE or WM.

forrestcupp
January 29th, 2012, 01:48 PM
The biggest problem I can think of is portability. Is Unity going to automatically take menus that were programmed into an app and convert them to HUD? If not, then I wonder how many people are going to want to specifically program their apps to cater to Unity? Let's face it, even though Ubuntu is the most popular distro, Unity is the redheaded step-child of DEs, and I can't see all the devs jumping on board to alter their apps just to cater to Unity.

When I program things, I like to keep portability in mind so that things can be compiled for Windows and Linux. There's no way I'm going to go the extra mile to have to cater to one certain DE in Linux, too.

But if Unity does all of this automatically, then I guess it's not a problem.

keithpeter
January 29th, 2012, 05:53 PM
The biggest problem I can think of is portability. Is Unity going to automatically take menus that were programmed into an app and convert them to HUD?

The current version of HUD is just picking up the words in the application menu that is currently in the top bar, i.e. whatever menu the focussed window has. It also finds items in the indicator menus (which are usually irrelevant to the task in hand). You can test that by hacking up a program skeleton with some daft menu names and then HUDing them to see...

I'm assuming that it is picking up the text from within the global menu app itself, so I suppose the only program that needs any special arrangements to support HUD is the global menu program.

As you are a programmer: I'd love to be able to issue commands via HUD (e.g. within Firefox type 'Edit Find unity2d' and it loads the Find box, gives it focus, and types the text into it...). I'm thinking of Quicksilver on the Mac OS. You could type the name of a program, then tab to a middle region and supply data to the program.

philinux
January 29th, 2012, 07:20 PM
It made the BBC news http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/technology-16731071

forrestcupp
January 29th, 2012, 07:25 PM
As you are a programmer: I'd love to be able to issue commands via HUD (e.g. within Firefox type 'Edit Find unity2d' and it loads the Find box, gives it focus, and types the text into it...). I'm thinking of Quicksilver on the Mac OS. You could type the name of a program, then tab to a middle region and supply data to the program.

Now that would be cool.

shizz
January 29th, 2012, 07:25 PM
I dunno if it has been said already so apologise if it has but regarding the problem of discover-ability that navigating a menu gives, how about typing in a command like "Menu" into the HUD brings up the full menu. Sub menus can then be clicked into and navigated through the HUD?

azurehi
January 30th, 2012, 01:43 AM
Unity is bad enough, and, now, with the LTS release coming up, HUD appears. And Shuttleworth wants New Users?

KiwiNZ
January 30th, 2012, 02:38 AM
Unity is bad enough, and, now, with the LTS release coming up, HUD appears. And Shuttleworth wants New Users?

Yes Mark Shuttleworth does want new users thus the changes, doing the same old hasn't really worked hence the +/- 1%.

Welly Wu
January 30th, 2012, 11:04 AM
Clearly, the near future direction for Ubuntu is to appeal to the masses and make it as simple and easy to use a major GNU/Linux distribution as a preferred choice for desktop and notebook PC users as compared to Microsoft Windows and Apple Macintosh OS X users. Unity is a useful idea whose time has come in my opinion because it greatly simplifies the focus down to the software applications rather than having to learn how to use the operating system in order to perform functions and tasks carried out by software applications. The Dash and lenses do make sense to me by making it easier to find the right software application to perform a specific function and it neatly organizes almost all of your data into one location from which you can locate, search, find, and launch software applications or pieces of data. The HUD is designed to take it a step further by reducing the need to navigate through complex menu systems for each software application and just type in key words using fuzzy matching technology to find, search, locate, and launch software applications and pieces of data throughout the entire Ubuntu operating system and all of the hardware devices that store data which are connected and mounted.

Can you see where Canonical and Shuttleworth are taking these ideas in the next two years and beyond?

If you are going to grow your user base, then you have got to come up with a simple, functional, effective, and elegant design that makes it clearly easier to perform common tasks used by a majority of computer users regardless of whichever operating system and hardware or software that they use so that even a child can quickly learn how to use it. Unity 3D, Dash, lenses, and HUD are a good compromise in terms of such a design. Instead of focusing on GNOME 2.x or KDE or Xfce, I wound up learning how to use these new technologies far faster and with a much lower learning curve when I finally decided to switch from using Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit to Ubuntu 11.10 64 bit over two weeks ago. Ubuntu is much easier to use in my opinion and it helps me to organize my software applications or find new software applications to use quite easily and quickly. The Dash feature alone has saved me hours of searching through a growing mountain of hundreds of gigabytes worth of data by reducing my need to use my mouse to navigate through and click through complex menu systems just to arrive at precisely the data or software application that I need to access or use at the moment. It also looks great on modern computer hardware too.

The HUD feature is something that I have been looking for in a modern operating system for a long time. I do want to be able to just type in a few keywords or parts of a keyword and find a list of matching data so that I can become aware of my options. It makes it tremendously easy to find data and launch software applications or perform command line functions in the terminal rather than having to navigate through the Unity 3D interface or Dash to arrive at the same end result with fewer mouse clicks.

Expect HUD to become a standard feature to be rolled out in future Ubuntu releases. I expect it to be a mature software feature by Ubuntu 14.04 64 bit LTS.

HUD simplifies life for the Ubuntu user by making it less of a royal pain in the *** to search through menu systems to get what you want whether it be specific data pieces or a unique function within a software application. As HUD is further refined and improved upon, voice assisted navigation will become a part of its feature set and we will be able to speak to our computers to get them to perform specific tasks for us whether it be a desktop, laptop, server, smart phone, or tablet or some other new technology device that gains popularity among consumers and businesses. I am looking forward to that day when it becomes a reality as I am already quite tired of typing in esoteric commands into the Dash just to find data or launch software applications.

There is an immense appeal to all of these future software technologies. Canonical and Shuttleworth are taking a highly calculated series of risks as they transform Ubuntu into a unique product over the next two years. They realize that Microsoft and especially Apple will eventually develop their own proprietary, patented, closed source alternative technologies and they just can not afford to be left behind in the dust because the overall GNU/Linux market share is pitifully minuscule compared to the number of Microsoft and Apple users worldwide.

This may come off as inflammatory, but I have come to realize that this Ubuntu community has had a mixed reaction to Unity, Dash, lenses, and now HUD thus far. Some Ubuntu users like myself see the future that Canonical and Shuttleworth are taking us toward and we embrace the changes either wholeheartedly or with some reservations. Others are against recent changes and they have left the Ubuntu community for good. If we abandon Ubuntu in larger numbers, then all of these changes will be for naught. We should be behind and supportive of Canonical and Shuttleworth by telling our families, friends, co-workers, and relatives about Ubuntu's new design and its future and we should help them to install Ubuntu onto their computers to increase the number of Ubuntu users worldwide. GNU/Linux users seem to take pride in the fact that they are different and a small minority and they do not seem to embrace any changes to their favorite distributions that bring them up to date with current technology trends. It is quite the opposite effect that I see whenever Apple releases a new hardware device or software application or update to OS X. I can say for certain that Microsoft users are generally quite inquisitive about the forthcoming Windows 8 release and there will be a far larger number of Windows users that will upgrade to the latest version of Windows by the end of this year and well into the next few years just because they want to be able to run Windows on smart phones, tablets, desktops, laptops, and servers with positive enthusiasm and high expectations.

Unity, Dash, HUD, lenses, and whatever future developments proffered by Canonical and Shuttleworth do not amount to nearly as dramatic changes or improvements in terms of being on the cutting edge of hardware and software technological developments as when Microsoft releases a new desktop or server platform every 3 - 5 years. Apple has total domination over its users and they will buy everything that the company has to offer every single year because they are masters of marketing and creating love for their brand among its users.

Some Microsoft and Apple customers do peruse Ubuntu Forums. They do read our threads and posts. If I were one of them, I would not bother with Ubuntu at all. Why should I? The community is suffers from fractures and fragmentation. People can not hold a civilized conversation about Unity, Dash, lenses, or HUD and threads wind up getting closed by the administrators or moderators. Canonical does not offer any new killer hardware products with features set that are not already found in other competitor's products with much better brand recognition and support. This is the current state of the Ubuntu world. Ubuntu users exist solely on their desktops, servers, and laptops. It is designed for computer nerds and geeks that know how to code their own software applications or for enterprise customers with very specific needs such as embedded systems or back end servers where cost is often a determining factor in the overall IT budget. Ubuntu is not designed for having fun while using your computer. It requires hacking to get it to work so you can do the same stuff right out of the box on a Microsoft Windows or Apple OS X computer or device because of legal restrictions especially if you are a US citizen living in the United States of America. Prior to Unity, Ubuntu required a fairly steep learning curve for those that converted from Windows or OS X. Many of the key features weren't even introduced until recently with Unity 3D, Dash, Lenses, HUD, and you still can not play all of the top tier PC games on Ubuntu if you have a Valve Steam account.

The next two years will be critical and hopefully fruitful years for Canonical and Ubuntu. This is our time to seize the opportunities to appeal to ingrained Microsoft and Apple customers that our brand, Ubuntu, is better and a far less expensive solution to their needs. By the time Ubuntu TV, smart phones, and tablets enter the market, Microsoft will have achieved solid penetration and considerable market share with their Windows 7.5 Mango smart phones, Windows 8 tablets, Windows 8 desktop, Windows 8 Server, and Sky Drive along with Microsoft Office products to name a few. Apple will be struggling with Google Android and Microsoft combined to keep or curtail the number of people that switch from Apple iPods, iPhones, iPads, iMacs, and MacBook Airs and Pros to their competitors products in their wide and diverse ecosystems.

Where will Canonical stand? Where will the Ubuntu community be left to stand if its users do not get behind the company and embrace the future changes and developments by installing Ubuntu on more computers, TVs, tablets, and smart phones?

You know where I stand in this controversy. I support Canonical and I support free, open source software and I support paying for my software to developers that have earned my money by making available a simpler, easier, and superior solution for my specific needs (i.e., Fluendo Complete Playback and DVD-Video player). I would very much like to see a high resolution digital Ubuntu TV in my living room. I would rather spend my money to buy an Ubuntu powered smart phone and an Ubuntu powered tablet because I would have control over the source code and these new hardware devices will be compatible with my current and future Ubuntu powered laptops made by ASUS and System76. By making these choices, I am taking my stand and I am saying that I no longer support Microsoft or Apple and I can get by with my life just fine. I refuse to be overcharged for less features and more restrictive legal disclaimers and end user agreements if I decide to follow the masses and I choose to stick with a Microsoft or Apple product.

Finally, I got tired of vendor lock-in. I purchased many DVD-Video movies and music CDs over the past several years. In the United States, it is legal to make a backup copy of your media for personal usage so long as you do not share it with others. When I was using Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit, all of my media library got locked into Microsoft Bitlocker, Bitlocker to Go, Apple iTunes, and digital rights management technologies that meant that only I could access my media library by myself. I could not share it with my family within the same household because of these digital handcuffs.

I am in the process of converting my physical and digital media library to free, open source formats that place no digital handcuffs on me whatsoever by choosing to use and embrace Ubuntu and its philosophy. By the end of this week, I will be done converting all of my digital media library (e-books, digital magazine subscriptions, music, movies, videos, documents, .PDF files, etc) and I can choose to share it with my family without any restrictions whatsoever. That is liberating and it is only possible with free, open source solutions like Ubuntu and its massive software packages made available in the Software Center. I also use TrueCrypt to secure my data and it is compatible with all of the major operating systems. This is progress. I am in control of my life now. I do not need Canonical, Apple, or Microsoft to tell me how to use my data or media according to what their lawyers force me to comply with before using their software or hardware.

The HUD will be something that I am eagerly looking forward to trying out with Ubuntu 12.04 64 bit LTS. The Dash is nice, but it does not go deep enough into my hundreds of gigabytes worth of data to find exactly what I want to search for or software that I need to use. The Dash is limited in its scope and it can not match the power and elegance of HUD if it is properly implemented and Canonical decides to develop its capabilities to its fullest potential. We are living in a time in which most of us have access to a mountain of data at work or at home. Even after the floodings in Thailand, hard drives are still relatively cheap and they give your several terabytes worth of available disk space for pennies per gigabyte. We are storing more data and HUD is a good solution to find exactly what we need at the time when we request that data in a simple and elegant way. It should be an option that can be turned on or turned off in the System Settings window, but I plan to turn it on and use it daily.

forrestcupp
January 30th, 2012, 01:11 PM
Yes Mark Shuttleworth does want new users thus the changes, doing the same old hasn't really worked hence the +/- 1%.

Somehow, I don't think the user interface is the problem. ;)

Erik1984
January 30th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Somehow, I don't think the user interface is the problem. ;)

True, but it has to start somewhere. Canonical needs to do what is within their reach. They can't force hardware manufacturers to write Linux drivers and they can't force Adobe to release Photoshop for Linux (just to name a few Linux problems). What they can do is make Ubuntu a better product with a consistent interface and an 'identity'. Slowly something is evolving that could be characterized as the typical Ubuntu look.

forrestcupp
January 30th, 2012, 03:27 PM
True, but it has to start somewhere. Canonical needs to do what is within their reach. They can't force hardware manufacturers to write Linux drivers and they can't force Adobe to release Photoshop for Linux (just to name a few Linux problems). What they can do is make Ubuntu a better product with a consistent interface and an 'identity'. Slowly something is evolving that could be characterized as the typical Ubuntu look.

As a Windows 7 user (primarily), it's my opinion that the user interfaces available for Linux have been way ahead of the game for several years now. Making the user interface even better isn't going to help at all. That's not the reason that the masses aren't flocking to Linux. I'd say the biggest problem isn't even drivers or Photoshop. One big problem is that people are satisfied with how their computers come, and they're just not going to install another OS.

werty2010
January 30th, 2012, 04:22 PM
im not sure how successful it will be, since its on its first stages
but i hope it will remain optional,meaning: if we want to,we could disable it

Welly Wu
January 30th, 2012, 04:34 PM
I thought that I was well satisfied with Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit until the Reliability Monitor told me that my system scored a 1 out of 10 in terms of stability and reliability. Now, I installed Ubuntu 11.10 64 bit my life has gotten a whole lot more productive and it's fun to use my computer once again. People install their operating system of choice based upon their specific needs and my case required one with a proven track record for stability, reliability, and dependability along with enhanced performance. Microsoft Windows just was not meeting those needs anymore and I also got tired of vendor lock in, proprietary encryption technology, digital rights management, and closed source, proprietary, and patented solutions that make it impossible to port my data over to a different platform. Ubuntu freed me of all of those restrictions completely and I have full control over my data and my media library.

I told my best friend about Ubuntu many different times and he now wants me to bring my ASUS N61JV-X2 notebook PC to a local Starbucks cafe so that he can try it out. This guy is well into his sixties and he just started to learn how to use computers less than two years ago from scratch since I taught him most of what he knows. He likes the philosophy behind GNU/Linux and Ubuntu, but he lacks the technical skills to install it in a Virtualbox virtual machine or in a dual-boot configuration alongside his Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit primary operating system.

My point is simple: not everybody is content with the status quo. For me, I had to make the switch because of financial reasons as I could no longer afford to keep buying specialized software applications to solve specific Windows 7 problems like device driver compatibility or fixing the Windows Registry every time I experienced a problem. I re-installed Microsoft Windows over half a dozen times and I experienced a unique problem that caused me to re-install yet another time either due largely to my own fault or simply to get a clean installation that was fresh and free of problems.

I don't hate Microsoft or Apple. I think that Ubuntu needs to stay competitive in terms of its software technologies and it needs to expand into the lucrative smart phone, tablet, and television markets.

Copper Bezel
January 30th, 2012, 04:36 PM
As a Windows 7 user (primarily), it's my opinion that the user interfaces available for Linux have been way ahead of the game for several years now. Making the user interface even better isn't going to help at all. That's not the reason that the masses aren't flocking to Linux. I'd say the biggest problem isn't even drivers or Photoshop. One big problem is that people are satisfied with how their computers come, and they're just not going to install another OS.
Unity and the HUD get people to write mainstream news articles about the OS and have something to talk about on tech blogs. The effect is small, but it's certainly not nonexistent, and it's probably the cheapest gesture they can make in terms of users gained per lines of code written.

Think of how many people claim they switched to Linux because of Compiz back when Compiz was cool.

forrestcupp
January 30th, 2012, 06:55 PM
Unity and the HUD get people to write mainstream news articles about the OS and have something to talk about on tech blogs.

Lol. True. :)

viperdvman
January 30th, 2012, 07:00 PM
Personally, I think it's a pretty neat concept, especially with programs that users are already familiar with and common menu items within programs. However, I also agree that it's not that great of an idea for apps that users are unfamiliar with. Traditional menus, whether within the window (a la Windows) or in the top panel (a la Mac OS), are very useful for exploring a new program.

I think HUD will be a very useful tool in upcoming Ubuntu releases. However, I also feel that it should an optional tool that we can easily turn on or off in whatever system settings or Unity settings tools we end up with in future releases. As long as the app menus can be easily changed to traditional, Mac OS, or HUD, then I'm totally fine with it. Otherwise, Ubuntu will lose even more users to Linux Mint (which I also like, btw)

Yes, voice command would be really nice too, especially if Ubuntu's looking to enter the tablet market. But I think making HUD both useful and stable should take priority.

Good idea, Mark. But don't take away our traditional (Windows or Mac OS) menus. Leave them in as an option we can easily switch to.

forrestcupp
January 31st, 2012, 12:54 PM
I'll bet the people who install GimpShop because they want their menus to be like PhotoShop will be mad. :D

desire.linux
February 1st, 2012, 12:44 PM
Ubuntu seems to be on a mission, and that is to make our computer usage less efficient by each release. This menu system, in addition to the horrible and buggy Unity concept, is a great addition and one more step in that direction.

The Ubuntu fan-boys is very much like the Apple fan-boys, they embrace anything that gets thrown at them, no matter how stupid it is. Even if you had to start writing backwards instead of forwards when using Ubuntu or OSX, the fan-boys had still loved it.

I'm working with photo and 3D on my computer, thankfully on Windows 7. By having to drop your mouse and then start focus on your keyboard to get to the menus, it's a sure way to decrease the efficiency of your work dramatically. The more I use my mouse, and the less I use my keyboard, for such work, the more efficient I work. If we loose all menus altogether, and have to search our way trough the menus with keywords using our keyboard, it should be considered as sabotage.

robsoles
February 1st, 2012, 01:30 PM
Ubuntu seems to be on a mission, ...I basically agree what you are saying about fanboys in general but I feel driven to comment that you come off (in your post) sounding like a probable Windows fanboy who hasn't necessarily actually tried the HUD yet(???)

EDIT: I have to add that I spend 70% of my waking moments with PCs at home and at work straddling Linux and Windows desktop and server editions - as much as my right hand touches mice my left hand touches keyboards and (being a programmer) I can spend hours with both hands on the keyboard anyway.

All things are ultimately configurable (if you want it badly enough) and I can get what I want out of a recent enough release of Ubuntu without having to tolerate Unity. I'll check out the HUD sometime soon and quietly cackle to myself if it happens to fix my problem with Unity :roll:

Copper Bezel
February 1st, 2012, 01:30 PM
Yeah, okay, that's a little much. While I agree that this isn't going to be as efficient on desktops as on laptops, I've found GIMP to be unusable without keyboard shortcuts as-is, so it's already one hand on the keyboard, one hand on the mouse....

Dragonbite
February 1st, 2012, 02:55 PM
If it is "one hand on the keyboard and one hand on the mouse", which hand do you use to drink your beer/soda/coffee/tea/etc.? Your keyboard hand, or your mouse hand?

Copper Bezel
February 1st, 2012, 07:52 PM
For me, or in general? For me, it would be my mouse hand. I can navigate a browser with my left and have the beer in my right, but there's no way I could run GIMP that way.

Linuxratty
February 2nd, 2012, 12:58 AM
Yeah, okay, that's a little much. While I agree that this isn't going to be as efficient on desktops as on laptops, I've found GIMP to be unusable without keyboard shortcuts as-is, so it's already one hand on the keyboard, one hand on the mouse....

Not for me.I use no keyboard shortcuts for the Gimp and only use the super key to zoom in with Compiz..HUD would be an aggravation for me.

Copper Bezel
February 2nd, 2012, 01:40 AM
Well, I freaked out when Shell required me to actually use the Super key, but I got over it. It's really not that hard to get used to. And the HUD is still a supplement for menus right now - as a keyboard input method, it makes more sense to hit Alt and type than it does to hit Alt and use the arrow keys to navigate the menus.

GIMP's menus are also available on right-click anywhere, so I'm usually more likely to use them that way.

But how are you handling GIMP without keyboard shortcuts? The GUI is terrible, and the only thing that's saved it for me is the configurable accels. I mean, I use a netbook and don't always have an external display plugged in, so the dockable dialogs might be more friendly with more screen real estate, but rather than dig through a bunch of tabbed toolboxes, I find it a lot easier to make the keyboard my toolbox. For instance, I have 1, 2, 3, and 4 set to increase and decrease brush size, and I find it much easier to hit the A key on my keyboard than to bring up the toolbox dialog and click the tiny little Airbrush icon, or P for paintbrush, E for eraser, and so on.

I mean, you don't actually use the zoom tool in GIMP, do you?

Linuxratty
February 2nd, 2012, 04:18 AM
Well, I freaked out when Shell required me to actually use the Super key, but I got over it. It's really not that hard to get used to. And the HUD is still a supplement for menus right now - as a keyboard input method, it makes more sense to hit Alt and type than it does to hit Alt and use the arrow keys to navigate the menus.

GIMP's menus are also available on right-click anywhere, so I'm usually more likely to use them that way.


I mean, you don't actually use the zoom tool in GIMP, do you?

:) I never used the super key till Compiz and when someone showed me how to zoom in and out, I was impressed!

Yeah,I'm a right clicker...My first impulse is to right click on whatever and see what happens.

I used the zoom tool in Gimp because if I use the Compiz super zoom,when I click on something,my mouse jumps..When one is working on a piece of art,that's not a good idea.

Copper Bezel
February 2nd, 2012, 05:48 AM
Oh, no, I just meant - if you hold Ctrl and scroll in GIMP (or most other apps) it'll zoom within the image, the same as the clicky magnifying glass from the toolbox. That requires the keyboard, but it's a lot faster. That's all I was referring to, there. (Like the other keyboard shortcuts.) I certainly didn't mean using Compiz zoom.

I do miss Compiz zoom, though, in Shell. = ( I've actually found myself holding Super and scrolling and wondering why things don't get bigger.

forrestcupp
February 2nd, 2012, 01:04 PM
Oh, no, I just meant - if you hold Ctrl and scroll in GIMP (or most other apps) it'll zoom within the image, the same as the clicky magnifying glass from the toolbox. That requires the keyboard, but it's a lot faster. That's all I was referring to, there. (Like the other keyboard shortcuts.) I certainly didn't mean using Compiz zoom.

I do miss Compiz zoom, though, in Shell. = ( I've actually found myself holding Super and scrolling and wondering why things don't get bigger.

I don't mind keyboard shortcuts because you can do most of them with only your left hand without taking your right off of the mouse. That's a lot different than having to use two hands to type something. That's a good idea about using the keyboard as your toolbox in Gimp. I don't use a netbook, so I have plenty of screen space, but it's a good idea.

Speaking of Compiz zoom, has anyone figured out a way to zoom like that in Shell? That was one of my favorite compiz plugins, along with window transparency.

Dragonbite
February 2nd, 2012, 02:55 PM
I don't mind keyboard shortcuts because you can do most of them with only your left hand without taking your right off of the mouse.

Or vice-verse for us Left-handers who prefer the opposite! ;)

Dragonbite
February 2nd, 2012, 03:16 PM
I was talking with our Sys Admin guy here, who is a BSD and Mac guy, and described HUD to him.

He said it sounded like something that friends showed him on a Mac about 4-5 years ago, which he tried and didn't like it.

He cannot remember the name of it, or specifics. He just remembers he didn't like it (which explains also why he doesn't remember the specifics).

Anybody hear or know anything about it?

rg4w
February 2nd, 2012, 04:32 PM
I was talking with our Sys Admin guy here, who is a BSD and Mac guy, and described HUD to him.

He said it sounded like something that friends showed him on a Mac about 4-5 years ago, which he tried and didn't like it.

He cannot remember the name of it, or specifics. He just remembers he didn't like it (which explains also why he doesn't remember the specifics).

Anybody hear or know anything about it?
He may be thinking of QuickSilver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksilver_%28software%29), which was part of the inspiration for GNOME Do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome_Do), which was part of the inspiration for the HUD.

QuickSilver is here:
http://qsapp.com/

Stovey
February 2nd, 2012, 04:54 PM
I am PUMPED about the HUD! And it looks like the next step is fully integrating voice control. The future is almost here!

"Computer: search StarTrek".

Dragonbite
February 2nd, 2012, 05:14 PM
I can see it being helpful in a text-heavy environment, such as working on a server that may or may not have a GUI, or you want to minimize the GUI asepcts.

Or to just shut up the people who complain about the buttons moving from right-to-left, and the Unity interface, etc. If the screen is blank and this is the only way to do things, then what are you going to complain about? ;)

3ldi5
February 3rd, 2012, 11:37 PM
Ubuntu seems to be on a mission, and that is to make our computer usage less efficient by each release. This menu system, in addition to the horrible and buggy Unity concept, is a great addition and one more step in that direction.

The Ubuntu fan-boys is very much like the Apple fan-boys, they embrace anything that gets thrown at them, no matter how stupid it is. Even if you had to start writing backwards instead of forwards when using Ubuntu or OSX, the fan-boys had still loved it.

I'm working with photo and 3D on my computer, thankfully on Windows 7. By having to drop your mouse and then start focus on your keyboard to get to the menus, it's a sure way to decrease the efficiency of your work dramatically. The more I use my mouse, and the less I use my keyboard, for such work, the more efficient I work. If we loose all menus altogether, and have to search our way trough the menus with keywords using our keyboard, it should be considered as sabotage.

While this may seem like a windows-fanboy statement to some people, I can say I couldn't agree more. All this stuff happening with Ubuntu lately seems much more like regression than progression to me. It's like "hey, let's invent something new, and force people to believe that it REALLY is an improvement, despite what people initially think of it".

I couldn't be more Linux-fanboy than I am right now, and I'm living for a day when we can proudly say that we have an OS that wipes out floor with Windows, so noone can etiquette me as a Win-fanboy when I say these things. I'm just so sorry that this thing is happening to distro that once had a very promising future, and that people was so enthusiastic about. Now all you can see are just a words of disapointment, all over the web, basically from once hard-core Ubuntu followers.

Canonical and Mr Shuttleworth can write statements and blogs about how amazing their innovations are, as much as they want, but they obviously underestimated humans ability to think rationally and logically on their own.

And one more thing, a bit more concrete. As I'm doing a lot of stuff on my comp that is related to graphic design, I can only laugh at idea to browse through my menus via some search field, aka HUD, while performing some multitasking job. This will never become a reality on power desktops, as well as voice control. Not because it's impossible tech-wise, but because it's totally useless and non-practice, especially when it comes to complicated productive work.

And considering my enthusiasm for Linux, it's not gone. Luckily, there are some other distros taking giant steps in right direction right now.

Linuxratty
February 3rd, 2012, 11:51 PM
Oh, no, I just meant - if you hold Ctrl and scroll in GIMP (or most other apps) it'll zoom within the image, the same as the clicky magnifying glass from the toolbox. That requires the keyboard, but it's a lot faster. That's all I was referring to, there. (Like the other keyboard shortcuts.) I certainly didn't mean using Compiz zoom.
.

I did not know this..Going to go try it right now!
WOW! Totally impressed!!!! Thank you! :D


While this may seem like a windows-fanboy statement to some people, I can say I couldn't agree more. All this stuff happening with Ubuntu lately seems much more like regression than progression to me..

I totally agree. I also am of the feeling that they think there is only one way to use a computer,the way they think you should.The old "My way or the highway" attitude. Shuttleworth said as much in one of his blogs.
I've used Linux since the early 2000's and I am used to setting things up MY way. Everyone has their own system of organising tasks and implementing them..Mine is mouse heavy.



I'm just so sorry that this thing is happening to distro that once had a very promising future, and that people was so enthusiastic about. Now all you can see are just a words of disapointment, all over the web, basically from once hard-core Ubuntu followers.

I am too..I just sit and sadly shake my head each time something ever more "innovative" pops up on OMGUbuntu! Everyone acts like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and I just think:"Oh no! It's getting worse!"..I do understand the reasoning behind what he's doing with Ubuntu.Still,I'm not a happy camper.


Canonical and Mr Shuttleworth can write statements and blogs about how amazing their innovations are, as much as they want, but they obviously underestimated humans ability to think rationally and logically on their own.

As I'm doing a lot of stuff on my comp that is related to graphic design, I can only laugh at idea to browse through my menus via some search field, aka HUD, while performing some multitasking job.
This will never become a reality on power desktops, as well as voice control. Not because it's impossible tech-wise, but because it's totally useless and non-practice, especially when it comes to complicated productive work.

Yup..Just because you say it is so does not make it so.
Finally! Another graphics user speaks up..Apparently,whomever came up with this stuff does not use art programs and have 13 layers open in it,plus Fire Fox,plus their home folder with pictures,plus the camera folder with even more pictures and who knows what else...If I had to use This convoluted thingamajig while working in the Gimp,I'd throw my computer out the window in frustration.

xyzzyman
February 4th, 2012, 12:09 AM
I did not know this..Going to go try it right now!
WOW! Totally impressed!!!! Thank you!

This works in most web browsers and in other OS's too. Quite handy.

forrestcupp
February 4th, 2012, 01:29 AM
All this stuff happening with Ubuntu lately seems much more like regression than progression to me. It's like "hey, let's invent something new, and force people to believe that it REALLY is an improvement, despite what people initially think of it".
I used Ubuntu for a lot of years, but when Windows 7 came out, I started using that full time. The other day, I installed the latest Ubuntu with Gnome Shell, and I liked it so much that I set it up to use full time. I don't really like Unity, but in my opinion, Ubuntu with Gnome Shell is a progression. I know that Gnome Shell is not really a credit to Ubuntu, though.

Dragonbite
February 4th, 2012, 04:04 AM
I used Ubuntu for a lot of years, but when Windows 7 came out, I started using that full time. The other day, I installed the latest Ubuntu with Gnome Shell, and I liked it so much that I set it up to use full time. I don't really like Unity, but in my opinion, Ubuntu with Gnome Shell is a progression. I know that Gnome Shell is not really a credit to Ubuntu, though.

I've been fooling around with Windows 7 while using Ubuntu with Gnome-shell and Unity. Unfortunately I am not 100% satisfied with Gnome-shell OR Ubuntu (and I am typing this from the Gnome-shell as we speak).

I am just personally in a quandry whether to jump to Windows for a while (after so much time with Linux, Windows is new and exciting as a different Linux distro), move to KDE or stick it out and hope for the best.

3ldi5
February 4th, 2012, 09:13 AM
I used Ubuntu for a lot of years, but when Windows 7 came out, I started using that full time. The other day, I installed the latest Ubuntu with Gnome Shell, and I liked it so much that I set it up to use full time. I don't really like Unity, but in my opinion, Ubuntu with Gnome Shell is a progression. I know that Gnome Shell is not really a credit to Ubuntu, though.

Then you probably jumped over 10.04 and 10.10 editions.

Speaking of Unity and Gnome Shell, I think they are both regression in terms of usability and productivity.
Both are just cheap attempt to appeal to Win/OS X users, and attract new user army to Linux, with shiny, glassy, iconized, transparent and fancy-effects appearance.

But sadly, it's a very wrong way. While adding some fanciness to desktop, they drastically reduced usability, productivity, ability to customize your desktop (something that so called power-users appreciate a lot).

Speaking of HUD, it is just "logical" addition to Unity from Canonical point of view, as they are both unneeded and illogical "innovations".

forrestcupp
February 4th, 2012, 02:45 PM
I am just personally in a quandry whether to jump to Windows for a while (after so much time with Linux, Windows is new and exciting as a different Linux distro), move to KDE or stick it out and hope for the best.Go ahead and use Win7 for a while if you're liking it. It's not like it really matters. I just definitely won't be using Win8, unless I'm forced to. I'm really not liking that for laptops and desktops.


Then you probably jumped over 10.04 and 10.10 editions.I think I've probably tried almost all of them out; I just didn't use them. I think I really got a lot of use out of all of them from Hoary to Intreped, but I've installed almost all of them. 11.10 with Gnome Shell is the only one that I liked enough to start using again.



While adding some fanciness to desktop, they drastically reduced usability, productivity, ability to customize your desktop (something that so called power-users appreciate a lot).That may be true for Unity, but not so much for Gnome Shell. You just have to do it in different ways now. I absolutely love how you can go to a web site, click an on/off switch, and have an extension installed and activated. Extensions are awesome, and there is a lot of potential there.

neu5eeCh
February 4th, 2012, 03:19 PM
OK, I just have to make one observation.

I was just reading all the hype about 12.04's latest Alpha at OMG Ubuntu. OMG was touting the launcher's new "Quick Lists". Ha! Does this new euphemism come from "on high". 'Quick Lists'? Is that what we're now calling "Drop Down Menus"? And I notice those pesky, old fashioned 'drop down menus'... er... 'quick lists' keep creeping back into the DE in so many unexpected places. Soon, no doubt, we' will have sub-menus... er... I mean, sub-quick-lists. It's as if the devs at Ubuntu were too embarrassed to admit that drop down menus are helpful, so let's call them something else. Once HUD shows up, will drop down menus... er... quick lists also start re-appearing?

Copper Bezel
February 4th, 2012, 10:58 PM
If by "on high" you mean "Redmond," yes. In Windows 7, they're called Jump Lists (and much better implemented than in Unity.) They definitely are right-click menus, but they do at least have larger click targets, and they've been around in Unity since 11.04. And it's nothing to do with the HUD, because they don't, as you say, have submenus.

The one thing that is nice about the Launcher quicklists is that they're stored in the application's .desktop file and easy to mess around with.

No, but on Unity itself, the fact that the Dash now shows, by default, recent unpinned apps is really, really nice to see. (And the option to remove the Software Center span from the Dash is nice, effing finally, but nice.)

3rdalbum
February 5th, 2012, 07:39 AM
OK, I just have to make one observation.

I was just reading all the hype about 12.04's latest Alpha at OMG Ubuntu. OMG was touting the launcher's new "Quick Lists". Ha! Does this new euphemism come from "on high". 'Quick Lists'? Is that what we're now calling "Drop Down Menus"? And I notice those pesky, old fashioned 'drop down menus'... er... 'quick lists' keep creeping back into the DE in so many unexpected places.

Quick Lists are to programs what indicators are to System Settings.

Currently, Quick Lists contain textual menu items. In the future they might contain buttons, sliders or other UI widgets that will help the user interact with the program without having to switch to it.


It's as if the devs at Ubuntu were too embarrassed to admit that drop down menus are helpful, so let's call them something else. Once HUD shows up, will drop down menus... er... quick lists also start re-appearing?

As you and many others have not absorbed when reading about the HUD: The HUD in its current form does not replace the menus, and 12.04 will ship with the HUD and the current menus. There will be something else added to the HUD later on that will be similar to today's menus, and then the current form of the menu will be removed.

So, yes. When the HUD appears in 12.04, the drop-down menus will still be present.

3ldi5
February 5th, 2012, 12:12 PM
As you and many others have not absorbed when reading about the HUD: The HUD in its current form does not replace the menus, and 12.04 will ship with the HUD and the current menus. There will be something else added to the HUD later on that will be similar to today's menus, and then the current form of the menu will be removed.

So, yes. When the HUD appears in 12.04, the drop-down menus will still be present.

I absorbed it exactly as it is (and many others I believe).

It's exactly the same thing that they did with Unity and 11.04. They made it a testing ground for Unity, and kindly gave us a 6 months "adopt" period, before they made it default and only environment in 10.10 edition. And they didn't care a lot about users feedback (which was overall not very positive).

So why should anyone go through the same process again, knowing how it's gonna end. They will spent 6 or 12 months ensuring you how great their new innovation (aka HUD) is, untill you force yourself to like it, because you know that it's the only option you'll have in upcoming release (whichever one that will be).

This Canonical attitude is almost comical. They first sell you something as an awesome innovation. And then, it's like, well, we know that this isn't a mind blowing feature, and that most of you will dislike it, but hey, we will give you a six months adoptation period (in which you will have some alternative to make it less painfull for you). Enough time for you to realise how "great" it is, and enough time for us to fix this buggy thing.

And it's also comical what arguments (by other, "satisfied" users) are used to make disapointed ones stay with Ubuntu. It's like mirrored Canonical way of thinking. We know it's not that great right now, but hey, it's still in development process, so give it some time, it will grow on you. Or, well, if you don't like it, than you can always install this-or-that replacement, and you can still use Ubuntu.

I know I'm tired of it. For those who are not, good luck with being Canonical testing ground for half-finished products, and always waiting for something BIG to happen.

Perfect Storm
February 5th, 2012, 12:37 PM
And it's also comical what arguments (by other, "satisfied" users) are used to make disapointed ones stay with Ubuntu. It's like mirrored Canonical way of thinking. We know it's not that great right now, but hey, it's still in development process, so give it some time, it will grow on you. Or, well, if you don't like it, than you can always install this-or-that replacement, and you can still use Ubuntu.

Most what you get in Linux is Development in progress. Do you really think Gnome 2 was that featureful from the start? Those who can remember way back, will remember that Gnome 2 was featureful and tweakable as a black dot on white paper.

And the comical ones can be all those who tireless try to convince all pro-unity people that they are wrong (as you see, a statement like this a pretty wrong like yours).

Gnome 2 is dead, end of story. That's why a lot of new projects arose. Gnome shell, Unity, Pantheon, Cinnamon or choose a completely new DE. Pick one and be happy and be happy that there's a lot of options to pick from.

If it wasn't Unity but Gnome Shell Ubuntu choosed we'll just have other people whining about that instead.

3rdalbum
February 5th, 2012, 12:42 PM
It's exactly the same thing that they did with Unity and 11.04. They made it a testing ground for Unity, and kindly gave us a 6 months "adopt" period, before they made it default and only environment in 10.10 edition.

Unity was made default in 11.04, and Gnome 2 was removed in 11.10. Unity is not the only environment in any version of Ubuntu - there are plenty in the repositories.


And they didn't care a lot about users feedback (which was overall not very positive).

A lot of negative user feedback was "This is different to what I'm used to, get rid of it and bring back Gnome 2!". In other words, not feedback - just a rant.

A lot of the "generally positive but this could be improved" feedback has been acted on. The less-than-useful Dash Home is being re-worked, and it will probably be fewer clicks to get to your programs. Multi-monitor support is being implemented. You can choose the reveal corner. It will be more difficult to accidentally trigger the Launcher when moving the mouse for Firefox's back button. It's coming in 12.04.

The people who have generally been receptive of Unity but suggested improvements, are going to be taken care of in 12.04, with the exception of those who want the Launcher at the bottom of the screen. I've got a feeling we'll see that option in 12.10.

The rest of your post doesn't quite make sense - you're saying that Canonical doesn't listen to users, and then complaining that they're doing something with the global menu that the users have been giving negative feedback about.

There's always change in computing, and Ubuntu users have never really liked it much. Personally, I'd like Unity to go more far-out and experimental.

3ldi5
February 5th, 2012, 01:53 PM
Unity was made default in 11.04, and Gnome 2 was removed in 11.10. Unity is not the only environment in any version of Ubuntu - there are plenty in the repositories.


You know what I meant, but for some reason you need to explain already explained thing. Yeah, it was "default" in 11.04 with option to log into classic Gnome environment. And in 11.10 it was the only option. And being the only option is not what problem is, and not the point of my post at all. Any distro that wants to have some identity should be packed with one DE at time. It's about quality of that one.


The people who have generally been receptive of Unity but suggested improvements, are going to be taken care of in 12.04, with the exception of those who want the Launcher at the bottom of the screen. I've got a feeling we'll see that option in 12.10.

So you actually believe that those people are vast majority of curent Ubuntu users? I don't think so, but I'm fine with anyone percepting it other way. This is actually what I was talking about. You're not questioning the Unity concept, at all, but you're speaking about some details and improvements in already presented concept. So, let's assume that you liked Unity from the start. I can understand your way of thinking in that case. You like it, you expect it to be improved.

But, what about people who dislike the whole Unity (and Gnome 3, there's almost no difference) concept? If you're not living on Mars, you probably know what kind of epic-size-debates and ultimate dissapointment this Unity thing caused? All I'm saying is that Canonical attitude is ignorant at BEST. Like, ok, despite having army of users that totally disagree with our concept of modern desktop, let's focus on those who actually think it's not that bad.


Gnome 2 is dead, end of story. That's why a lot of new projects arose. Gnome shell, Unity, Pantheon, Cinnamon or choose a completely new DE. Pick one and be happy and be happy that there's a lot of options to pick from.

If it wasn't Unity but Gnome Shell Ubuntu choosed we'll just have other people whining about that instead.

Yeah, it's dead, and luckily we have some very promising projects going on right now, and ofcourse I'm happy for having a lot of options. Obviously, since this is Ubuntu forum, I'm talking about Ubuntu, and this Unity + HUD thing. I'm writing these things not because I hate Ubuntu, but because I loved it once, and I'm feeling sorry now for its new direction. (Those who know me from deviantART, they know how much art related to Ubuntu I created).

Like I said, good luck with Unity + HUD. I'm far from giving up Linux, as there are some great projets going on, from people who actually cares about users feedback.

Cheers.

neu5eeCh
February 5th, 2012, 02:10 PM
As you and many others have not absorbed when reading about the HUD: The HUD in its current form does not replace the menus, and 12.04 will ship with the HUD and the current menus.

I can't speak for the straw man you've created, but I never stated that HUD would replace menus in 12.04.


A lot of negative user feedback was "This is different to what I'm used to, get rid of it and bring back Gnome 2!". In other words, not feedback - just a rant.

So... let me understand this: If it's not "feedback" you like or approve of, then it's to be known, henceforth, as "ranting"?

Perfect Storm
February 5th, 2012, 02:21 PM
... as there are some great projets going on, from people who actually cares about users feedback.

It could be interesting to know those who are, you're talking about. So far I haven't seen a concrete of evidence that the devs doesn't listening to their usergroup(s). What I see in projects like Unity, gnome shell, Pantheon etc. is that everyone of them have a "red thread" on what they want to accomplishing. So when new ideas comes to their attention they'll look at it and see if it fits into the project.

So yes, they don't throw everything in and the kitchen sink because people tell them to. It would be disastrous for any project of any kind to do so.

overcast
February 5th, 2012, 04:27 PM
I think some of the power users of keyboard are assuming a lot of things about people who rely on mouse for hovering and exploring the desktop.

Personally I don't want some terminal to type into for the menu options. I want to explore the UI with menus so I can understand software better. HUD seems to be on the mission of removing GUI's with terminal (search mode). Honestly i dont like it. GUI's are there to minimize the keystrokes, HUD is going to increase it for sure. I checked mark's blog post and he's assuming a lot of things like "people prefer more typing than mousing". That is just plain assumption without knowing the community. Many users (like me ) are migrating from win+apple platform. I know that linux power users are good at keyboard smashing skills (no offense) but that's not applicable to all.

Current impression is that it will replace only GTK based apps but soon they'll add FLTK and QT support too. This I feel like death of clean GUI. It doesnt make work more faster, but more slower. How anyone is going to play media files? by typing? "file>open library>folder1>foler 2>folder 3>folder 4>movie.dat ?wow. i must say this will increase the amount of time it takes to do some task. Again power users will generalize things for average users and will dumb it down on them. I am all for change but this looks like change for the sake of change.

HUD is good idea for the tablet and mobiles but in case of laptops and desktop it is going to more pain. Especially if you're into design and music/video production with your custom (or community software). HUD is going to be very painful for doing some tasks because even minor change in filter which you can do with 3 mouse click will require typing "filter>reverb>option>" takes more time than 3 mouse clicks and doesn't require attention of your hand to type which your brain signals like when you do simple mouse click. So HUD is clutter and is like asking for more work, sure this learning curve can be ignored if you're good at keyboard but for others it is pain.

I guess this is the time where MATE, Xubuntu and perhaps another fork is going to cater us (low lifers who are slow at HUD). That aside, I do welcome this change as it is good for tablet and mobile, and it should remain on those platforms IMO, not laptops and desktops. Voice based desktop is even pain especially in some situations where you don't want to talk about file names or types of files to play or run. :/ Whoa, it took me a lot of time to type..no wonder I hate HUD even without trying.

Copper Bezel
February 5th, 2012, 05:20 PM
Personally I don't want some terminal to type into for the menu options. [...] I know that linux power users are good at keyboard smashing skills (no offense) but that's not applicable to all.
Please do consider attempting to learn something.


HUD is good idea for the tablet and mobiles but in case of laptops and desktop it is going to more pain.
Yes, because keyboards are always readily available on phones.


HUD is going to be very painful for doing some tasks because even minor change in filter which you can do with 3 mouse click will require typing "filter>reverb>option>" takes more time than 3 mouse clicks and doesn't require attention of your hand to type which your brain signals like when you do simple mouse click.
You don't understand how the HUD works. Look at it again.


How anyone is going to play media files? by typing?
It's replacing the menubar. What does the menubar have to do with playing media files? (That said, yes, it would be very, very nice to skip to a song by typing a bit of the name, and a hell of a lot faster than any alternative. Banshee requires hitting Slash to search, typing a bit, then clicking to play the song and hitting Slash again to clear the search box, and it's a resolutely and obtrusively awkward process.)

overcast
February 5th, 2012, 05:53 PM
Yeah. You're right I need to learn something new because this wave of tablet and touch screen displays are going to change the way we're working with computers. So sooner or later even Menus are going to increase the amount of time we spend for the work. It's yet to come but have to prepare to avoid that tech culture shock.

I don't agree with you on media player point though, I prefer mouse or UI input for searching instead of typing, if menus of media players applications are replaced with HUD then surely it is uncomfortable, that was my point earlier. I guess that is because my initial computing experience was with windows and apple. I just don't like these forced choices, be it on free software or closed source. Some things in UI should be simple, not complicated. Atleast for now lol.

That said, my plan is to install 12.04 and then test HUD and if it's comfortable to me, keep it or else moving on with Mate or xubuntu.

keithpeter
February 5th, 2012, 06:02 PM
That said, my plan is to install 12.04 and then test HUD and if it's comfortable to me, keep it or else moving on with Mate or xubuntu.

Hello overcast and all

And that is what GNU/Linux gives us all: choice. You decide what works for you, and I'll decide what works for me.

And I hope Canonical sells lots of tellies and makes a lot of profit to continue development of the 'default' stack. Its all GPL code, so the results go back into the ecosystem for others to customise and build on.

forrestcupp
February 5th, 2012, 08:15 PM
Those of you who have been reading through this thread may have noticed that I was one who was vocal against having to use the keyboard. But I've been using Gnome Shell for the past several days instead of Win7, and I find myself typing stuff into the Dash rather than going through the menus. :oops:



Like I said, good luck with Unity + HUD. I'm far from giving up Linux, as there are some great projets going on, from people who actually cares about users feedback.With all of the other DEs in the repos, I'm far from even giving up on Ubuntu. There's a lot more about Ubuntu that I like than just Unity. You can still benefit from Ubuntu even if you're using another DE.


It could be interesting to know those who are, you're talking about. So far I haven't seen a concrete of evidence that the devs doesn't listening to their usergroup(s). What I see in projects like Unity, gnome shell, Pantheon etc. is that everyone of them have a "red thread" on what they want to accomplishing. So when new ideas comes to their attention they'll look at it and see if it fits into the project.

So yes, they don't throw everything in and the kitchen sink because people tell them to. It would be disastrous for any project of any kind to do so.Good point. If every project were based on the average of a conglomeration of everyone's desires, every project would be exactly the same.

3ldi5
February 5th, 2012, 11:43 PM
Good point. If every project were based on the average of a conglomeration of everyone's desires, every project would be exactly the same.

Totally missing the point.

OFCOURSE you will not incorporate every single wish you get from community. It's unquestionable.

But when you have a vast majority of users sharing the same thoughts, suggesting the same things, being dissapointed with same things, then at least you could try to listen to them, and not putting your head in the sand.

So let me ask you this. Have you followed the last Q&A chat session with Mark Shuttleworth?
Do you know how much time he spent answering question about people dissapointment with Unity, and Mint overtaking the distrowatch page hit ranks?
Nothing, or almost nothing. Just some plain diplomatic answer about him being sure that Ubuntu will remain number one distro, and being glad some other distros are being popular too.
So will you try to tell me that it's not utterly ignorant and egoistic behavior? Totally avoiding to speak about thing that caused the biggest migration of Ubuntu users since it exists, is not something you can ignore.

And I know that this will hurt many of you, but why do you think that people are abandoning your ship, more and more? If everything in this Canonical's house is clean and shiny and in perfect order? Is it maybe because of MS/Canonical ignorance? Why is there some other distro, which is also experimenting with new things, from month to month actually, that is gathering more and more people?

So your arguments about Unity being something new (therefore requiring people some time to adopt to it), being better and better over time, being still in development and evolving, and etc etc (all explaining why people are abandoning Ubuntu), is questionable at best.

Like I said, there are some other things going on right now in Linux desktop environment world, very fresh and very new and very experimental, but still managing to fascinate a huge army of people. Comparing to multi-million company standing behind Unity, heh... I guess I made myself clear.

Copper Bezel
February 6th, 2012, 01:13 AM
Every new feature would likely get less than half of users sold on it at first blush. Users have to learn them, after all. But the negativity about Unity doesn't represent anything about the actual Ubuntu user base, and neither do Distrowatch hits. There are simple reasons in both cases I'm not going to explain yet again here. Citing them over and over again is just adding to the noise.

And Mark Shuttleworth doesn't have any more reason to go on about them than I do.

3ldi5
February 6th, 2012, 09:19 AM
Every new feature would likely get less than half of users sold on it at first blush. Users have to learn them, after all. But the negativity about Unity doesn't represent anything about the actual Ubuntu user base, and neither do Distrowatch hits. There are simple reasons in both cases I'm not going to explain yet again here. Citing them over and over again is just adding to the noise.

And Mark Shuttleworth doesn't have any more reason to go on about them than I do.

Yeah, it doesn't have to mean anything.
While Ubuntu was number one, ofcourse it was caused with Ubuntu being the most popular distro out there. Now when it's double-outnumbered, it doesn't have to mean anything. :)

But ofcourse, you, as well as Mr Shuttleworth, have all rights to percept it your way. This is already washed out subject, so there's no point going further in discussion.

I'm glad you're so positive about it. That's the spirit.

forrestcupp
February 6th, 2012, 01:29 PM
Totally missing the point.

OFCOURSE you will not incorporate every single wish you get from community. It's unquestionable.

But when you have a vast majority of users sharing the same thoughts, suggesting the same things, being dissapointed with same things, then at least you could try to listen to them, and not putting your head in the sand.
First off, I'm not a Unity fanboy, so what I've said doesn't come from that perspective. I'm using Gnome Shell right now, and I don't really like Unity.

But you're totally missing the point. If I start working on my own project that I have a vision for, I don't necessarily want a bunch of people telling me how crappy it is and how I should have done it a different way. It's my project, and I'm probably going to stick fairly close to my vision or else it's not really my project and I'm not going to be motivated to work on it.

Another thing is that the people who are pissed off about it are the ones you hear, and the people who try to be sensible about things are ripped apart and labeled as "fanboys" by the people that are pissed. Just because the pissed people are the loudest doesn't necessarily mean that it's really "the vast majority of users" who are sharing the same thoughts of disappointment. I know a lot of people are mad, but I find it hard to believe that it's the vast majority of all the users.

Mark Shuttleworth has a vision for his DE, and he knows that if people don't like it, all they have to do is install another one from the Software Center. All you have to do is search for it in the Software Center and click the "install" button. That's much easier than installing Windows, which is made by a company that accepts far less community suggestions than they do for Unity.

3ldi5
February 6th, 2012, 02:22 PM
First off...
...than they do for Unity.

I'm so over this. So yeah, you're right. Unity is mind-blowing concept and Ubuntu is gonna have dozens of millions users in next few years. And we who don't like it (as well as Gnome shell), we are just a bunch of limited people, not being able to percieve how amazing Unity actually is. Just let's not continue this discussion. It's offtopic anyway.

Cheers.

forrestcupp
February 6th, 2012, 02:55 PM
I'm so over this. So yeah, you're right. Unity is mind-blowing concept and Ubuntu is gonna have dozens of millions users in next few years. And we who don't like it (as well as Gnome shell), we are just a bunch of limited people, not being able to percieve how amazing Unity actually is. Just let's not continue this discussion. It's offtopic anyway.

Cheers.

Ok. You're right that this discussion is pointless. I wish you would have actually read what I said, though. Looks like you skipped over a lot of it, especially the part where I said I don't like Unity. And also, there are more DEs in the repos than just Unity and Gnome Shell.

Dragonbite
February 6th, 2012, 03:14 PM
Is it really the "vast majority" or is it the "vocal minority"? (sorry, didn't see it was already mentioned).

Considering people complain about Unity, and it continues unabashed might say one thing, but that Gnome-shell is getting a similar feedback and are too continuing unabashed may say either the programmers are all getting the same bad attitude (towards users), or they know and hear something we don't.

Mark Shuttleworth is a businessman. A good businessman isn't going to comment on something unless he's ready. Annoying? You betcha! ;) Sometimes, though, silence is golden.

He could also be working on feedback from Canonical's Enterprise Customers.

People will flow in-and-out of Ubuntu. It has happened to a number of distributions before and will a number afterwards. You make it sound like that is a bad thing. Linux not only provides for this, it fosters this! Where does it say that Ubuntu's goal is to be "the Linux with the most users"?

Stovey
February 6th, 2012, 03:45 PM
...Good point. If every project were based on the average of a conglomeration of everyone's desires, every project would be exactly the same.

Bodhi Linux (I think) doesn't come with a web browser. They explain that their research shows user preference is split equally between Firefox, Chrome and [Epiphany]? So if they were to provide a default browser, they would be wrong for 2/3 of the people.

For most users, a default desktop is better than no desktop. But just like swapping Firefox for Chromium immediately upon installation of Ubuntu, it is just as simple to swap Unity for Gnome-shell (or any other preferred desktop).

Dragonbite
February 6th, 2012, 04:54 PM
Bodhi Linux (I think) doesn't come with a web browser. They explain that their research shows user preference is split equally between Firefox, Chrome and [Epiphany]? So if they were to provide a default browser, they would be wrong for 2/3 of the people.

For most users, a default desktop is better than no desktop. But just like swapping Firefox for Chromium immediately upon installation of Ubuntu, it is just as simple to swap Unity for Gnome-shell (or any other preferred desktop).

Using a DVD installation disk, like Fedora or openSUSE provides, you can install either and "all" applications you want while keeping out those applications you don't.

rg4w
February 6th, 2012, 07:31 PM
Do you know how much time he spent answering question about people dissapointment with Unity, and Mint overtaking the distrowatch page hit ranks?
Probably about as much time as it merits:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11480329#post11480329

3ldi5
February 6th, 2012, 07:59 PM
Probably about as much time as it merits:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11480329#post11480329

Yeah yeah, I know. Distrowatch ranks means nothing actually. ;)

They stopped meaning anything in the right moment when Ubuntu dropped the first place. :) Cute.

KiwiNZ
February 6th, 2012, 08:14 PM
Yeah yeah, I know. Distrowatch ranks means nothing actually. ;)

They stopped meaning anything in the right moment when Ubuntu dropped the first place. :) Cute.

They stopped meaning anything circa 2001

nothingspecial
February 6th, 2012, 08:33 PM
This thread is supposed to be about HUD.

KiwiNZ
February 6th, 2012, 09:39 PM
This thread is supposed to be about HUD.


it's become Horribly,Utterly,Distracted

forrestcupp
February 6th, 2012, 09:45 PM
Mark Shuttleworth is a businessman. A good businessman isn't going to comment on something unless he's ready. Annoying? You betcha! ;) Sometimes, though, silence is golden.Yeah, people are upset that they don't pay attention to their complaints about things like HUD and Unity, but I'd like to see what would happen if they told Linus Torvalds that one part of his kernel sucks and he needs to change it. Silence is golden! :D


Yeah yeah, I know. Distrowatch ranks means nothing actually. ;)

They stopped meaning anything in the right moment when Ubuntu dropped the first place. :) Cute.Lol. I don't think they ever did mean a lot, but I get your point. :)

Algus
April 30th, 2012, 05:51 AM
As a long time Ubuntu user, I don't care at all if Ubuntu is #1 or not. I guess maybe Canonical cares since they make their money by selling support services to big companies but if everyone stops using Ubuntu because of Unity, that doesn't affect me to much. I'll probably use Ubuntu until it isn't supported, then switch to another distro. That's the nature of Linux.

Anywho, I actually searched for this topic to talk about HUD (lol)

So I've been checking it out and I have to say that I do like it quite a bit. If I was more of a power user (these days I really just use my laptop for web browsing), I'd probably get a lot more use out of it.

That said, I'm not sure that removing the point-and-click options of the menus is really a good idea. HUD seems like a great supplement (or maybe old style menus are a great supplement to HUD) but I'm not convinced that a purely text-driven system is the way to go if one of Ubuntu's goals is to remain friendly and simple for anyone, including those who are disinclined to understanding computers.

I hope the Ubuntu team isn't in a real big hurry to abandon menus. I definitely like HUD more than Microsoft's ribbon interface though.

Bandit
April 30th, 2012, 11:27 AM
Next step afterwards is making it voice-activated!
...

Oh.. This in so many ways..

kdrainey
May 1st, 2012, 01:13 AM
I don't get anything useful from hud; even simple things like alt and typing terminal does not get you access to the terminal. Do you need to train it? Is something missing from my installation?

Triblaze
May 1st, 2012, 02:51 AM
I don't get anything useful from hud; even simple things like alt and typing terminal does not get you access to the terminal. Do you need to train it? Is something missing from my installation?
The hud the alt key brings up is a search function for options within your current application. So if you're in firefox, you could search for "print", or "addons". But "terminal" won't give you anything because firefox doesn't launch the terminal. If you want the hud that launches programs (I believe it's called the glass?), then you use the super key, which is global and allows for launching programs and files.

Two seperate hud menus.


Personally, I like the HUD a lot, it's great to have it to find stuff quickly, but it shouldn't replace menus, it should only supplement them.

thatguruguy
May 1st, 2012, 02:55 AM
(I believe it's called the glass?)

FWIW, it's called the Dash.

Bandit
May 1st, 2012, 02:57 AM
HUD is neat and all, but I am trying to cut down on keystrokes and mouse clicks both. HUD isnt helping with that. But everyone has their own preference. :)

Triblaze
May 1st, 2012, 02:59 AM
FWIW, it's called the Dash.
Ah, right, Dash. No idea where glass came from. I guess it is like a glass that goes over the screen.

And the dash is cool too, but I'd also like my Gnome nested menus. Dash is faster if you know what you're looking for, otherwise I prefer the menus.

kdrainey
May 1st, 2012, 08:13 AM
Thanks! Your comment helps me understand what is and is not happening when I try to use HUD. Do we wait for system updates? Is there something users can do to make HUD productive for their actual use patterns?

(HUD is not a good name for this feature since it invites comparison to the US federal department of housing and urban development (HUD), which at times has not worked very well either.)

kdrainey
May 1st, 2012, 08:20 AM
FWIW, it's called the Dash.

Thanks, I was trying to do the wrong thing with HUD. Am I right in saying it does what I did do with application menus for some applications when I am currently using that application?

kdrainey
May 1st, 2012, 08:22 AM
Thanks, I understand now just what the big idea is.

gefalu2008
May 1st, 2012, 02:41 PM
Now that I have tested HUD a little I can say that it seems to be a wonderful innovation. My expectations were cautious, but I was surprised in the way the HUD seems to make accessing things faster. And I thought I was mouse-addicted.

And the 12.04 Unity feels even better now!

So it seems Canonical, Ubuntu teams, and Mark Shuttleworth have given us a great innovation. This is a big feat in a competitive environment.

gleedadswell
May 1st, 2012, 10:03 PM
After a very small amount of time playing with it I already like the HUD, and expect I might eventually like it a lot. Do any of the folks nearer the development efforts have any speculations about when LibreOffice will be integrated into the HUD?

Paqman
May 1st, 2012, 11:46 PM
I'm liking it a lot. Nice little feature.

mfZero
May 2nd, 2012, 12:05 AM
At first, I was just using it to try it out. I thought it was okay, but it's too "literal."

But now I've been using it to find things in the menu so I don't have to look all over for them, so I do appreciate that.