Microsoft trying to lock Linux out of ARM systems

[IanW]

As we feared with UEFI secure boot, Microsoft are insisting that ARM devices ship with the
feature enabled and no way to install any other OS alongside/instead of Win8.

Full story here:-
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2012/jan/12/microsoft-confirms-UEFI-fears-locks-down-ARM/

[Double.J]

Gotta be honest, if Windows holds it's mobile market share I don't mind ;)

I think there's two things here - windows OS on arm, and a possible
"Windows Phone" If companies such as htc make phones that can run windows 8 or android or whatever, and market the phone as the HTC "super mega touch screen phone" then I think this is wrong.

However, If a company such as htc makes a phone for microsoft, that is only commissioned to run windows OS and is sold as "Windows Mobile", "Win Phone", or "There's an I in windows phone", Then in my opinion MS would be just as within their rights to lock out other OS's as apple are with the Iphone - their phone, their rules.

It's like Chrome books, say google said that anything sold as a "chromebook" had to use a secure boot feature - we may be used to multi-booting, but if a product is sold as a "chromebook", not a "Samsung netbook 4000" (that hapens to run chrome) I think that the vendor has a right to make it difficult for you to replace their OS... not sue you for doing it, but why should they make it easy?

To reiterate, in my humble opinion, if a phone is sold as a certain model by a certain company - that's what your buying and you can put whatever OS on it you want... if it's sold by the operating system it uses.. then your buying into the package.

[amstreatam]

Even though on x86 MS *requires* Custom mode be enabled, on ARM system they require that it be disabled, and require that it isn't possible to disable secure boot.

In short, they are making sure no OS but Win8 will be able to be installed on these hardware devices.

http://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2012/jan/12/microsoft-confirms-UEFI-fears-locks-down-ARM/
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/01/14/0236244/microsoft-taking-aggressive-steps-against-linux-on-arm

[Copper Bezel]

Well, it's not "just as feared." "Just as feared" would be locking down x86, too, instead of promising not to. It's just another reason that a Windows ARM tablet isn't a real PC - as if being locked down to the Windows Store wasn't reason enough.

[CharlesA]

Threads merged. +1 to what Copper Bezel said.

[amstreatam]

Well, it's not "just as feared." "Just as feared" would be locking down x86, too, instead of promising not to. It's just another reason that a Windows ARM tablet isn't a real PC - as if being locked down to the Windows Store wasn't reason enough.
I didn't really think my grammar/punctuation would be the most noteworthy part of my post...!

Let me fix it for you, and put the caveat at the front:
On ARM: just as feared, MS is locking down UEFI

[Dangertux]

I agree with CopperBezzel as well. Nobody is forcing you to buy these devices.

[bluexrider]

Just as before, Microsoft is heading toward yet another antitrust lawsuit. They want to gobble up everything. IMHO

[sammiev]

Just as before, Microsoft is heading toward yet another antitrust lawsuit. They want to gobble up everything. IMHO

By then the damage would have been done. No new users for a few years. Seems like they win unless someone comes out with a hack.

[Paqman]

I suspect that once Win8 arrives on the scene Microsoft will start being a lot more influential on ARM devices than it is at present, so this could be a problem if it stands. I think it's fairly likely that they'll change tack on this like they did with x86 if people make enough of a stink.

Either that or some clever Linux hackers will have to find a way around it, which they seemed to do pretty easily for the signed bootloaders that some Android phones shipped with.

[Paqman]

I agree with CopperBezzel as well. Nobody is forcing you to buy these devices.

It's quite likely that ARM will power the majority of laptops within a few years, so this is worth paying attention to.

[IanW]

It's quite likely that ARM will power the majority of laptops within a few years, so this is worth paying attention to.

The exact reason I started this thread.

[Lars Noodén]

ARM is definitely up and coming. It is on phones and tablets, with tablets being the obvious area for Ubuntu to be expanding into.

Here is Glyn Moody's description of the problem:
http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2012/01/is-microsoft-blocking-linux-booting-on-arm-based-hardware/

[mips]

ARM is definitely up and coming.

Up and coming?

There's more than 15 billion of the little critters out there and it's growing exponentially. Intel/AMD can't match those numbers.

[Paqman]

Up and coming?

There's more than 15 billion of the little critters out there and it's growing exponentially. Intel/AMD can't match those numbers.

Sure, but x86 is still king of the hill for the type of machines likely to be affected by this topic. I doubt Microsoft are trying to get Win8 onto your router.

[mips]

Sure, but x86 is still king of the hill for the type of machines likely to be affected by this topic.

Agreed.

I would have been happy if x86 died a long time ago and instead we got a modern fresh 32/64 bit architecture from scratch for desktops/servers.

[RichardUK]

I believe Microsoft's goal is not to stop us using other OS's (although that is the end result) but to secure their own much in the same way Apple systems are 'locked' to Apple OS's. But of cause, as already stated, some cleaver monkey with find a way to get round it.

I hear people say 'when is Linux going to win'. Well, it already has if you look at the figures. May not own the desktop market but the other markets, it rules and these are much bigger than desktop and laptop PC's (in numbers). MS has recently been forced to add support for Linux in their cloud offering because of demand. :)

When a friend asks "Is Linux ever going to get in my home" I always reply "It already is, and I bet there are more Linux systems in your house than Windows!".

So, to reply the original post, no I don't think they are locking Linux out of the Arm os market, they are locking down their own OS because they are stuck with supporting a legacy OS. I bet a lot of MS engineers would love to be able to start again without needing backward compatibly. :P

[amstreatam]

I suspect that once Win8 arrives on the scene Microsoft will start being a lot more influential on ARM devices than it is at present, so this could be a problem if it stands. I think it's fairly likely that they'll change tack on this like they did with x86 if people make enough of a stink.

I don't think so. I doubt very much it was the "masses" that forced a change of heart - more likely to be a hardware partner big enough to listen to who is a member of the UEFI Foundation: Intel.

With ARM there's no-one annoying like that they need to appease.


It's quite likely that ARM will power the majority of laptops within a few years, so this is worth paying attention to.
Yes, Qualcomm is already planning Win8 laptops: http://www.itworld.com/hardware/240039/qualcomm-targets-pcs-takes-aim-intels-ultrabooks

[Lars Noodén]

Here is SJVN's take on the matter:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/microsoft-to-lock-out-other-operating-systems-from-windows-8-arm-pcs-devices/10132

It's going to squeeze Ubuntu at least a little since Ubuntu is moving into ARM (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/ubuntu-linux-bets-on-the-arm-server/9445) at least on the server. It'll probably do portable device, too, and that's where the real conflict would shape up if the lock-out is allowed to go forward.

[DGINSD]

This is a bit over my head but I'm planning a new Laptop purchase soon that I want to load Ubuntu on immediately after the trip home, do I need to be careful what I buy to assure I can do this?

[nothingspecial]

Not support. Moved to the cafe.

[szymon_g]

that's funny- nobody is mad when Apple and RIM does the same, but when MS does it- than "MS is evil" etc

[Lars Noodén]

This is a bit over my head but I'm planning a new Laptop purchase soon that I want to load Ubuntu on immediately after the trip home, do I need to be careful what I buy to assure I can do this?

You may be thinking of the separate but related problem of UEFI 'secure' boot (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/yes-uefi-secure-boot-could-lock-out-linux-from-windows-8-pcs/14897). Just stay clear of machines with Windows8 ( aka Vista8 ) and you'll be fine in that regard. The threat is there so you are right to be cautious in your purchasing.

However, this thread is about ARM processors and there aren't any laptops running ARM, yet. ARM is perceived as being somewhat less powerful but with huge advantages in battery life. So it's already there for smartphones, tablets and a few other devices. It's a natural conclusion that it should be on laptops, too.

[TechZilla]

This is a bit over my head but I'm planning a new Laptop purchase soon that I want to load Ubuntu on immediately after the trip home, do I need to be careful what I buy to assure I can do this?

You should always check if a device is usable with GNU/Linux, This was the norm when I first started using Ubuntu 4.10 and Debian. I'v stuck to this as a mantra, after getting so many incompatible devices!!!

Today things just have gotten so much better, that it was almost possible to just "wing it"

O and BTW,

that's funny- nobody is mad when Apple and RIM does the same, but when MS does it- than "MS is evil" etc

I assume I'm not the only one who feels this way, but your absolutely wrong. MANY MANY people have a high degree of contempt for both Apple and RIM, for those exact reasons. This opinion is also shared by the FSF, and appropriately by Stallman himself. It screws the users, of their choice, which is always unacceptable.

Also worth mentioning,

I agree with CopperBezzel as well. Nobody is forcing you to buy these devices.

The problem is about the industry "forcing" us out of buying these devices. It would be an artificial limitation, created only by a self serving industry. The GNU/Linux users, and Devs, should be at the table just like everyone else. It would be fairly good grounds for an anti-trust lawsuit, at the minimum. Monopolistic practices are "evil", destroy free market, and remove choice from the people. It is as simple as this, and these beliefs are necessary for the viability of any Free OS.

[Mikeb85]

Some Android devices have locked bootloaders, all iOS devices do, RIM probably does, it's not unusual that Windows on ARM would do the same. If you want Linux on ARM, get an Android device, then load up whatever Linux will run on it... As of right now, MS has a very, very small portion or the ARM market...

[Copper Bezel]

Well, Google doesn't lock the bootloaders on the Nexus line, and they frown on vendors doing it, but of course, they have zero control of the Android operating system outside of the logo (which, admittedly, is what Microsoft is using here.)

The worry isn't really that there are a few tablets that won't run Linux. The worry is that Microsoft's relationship with Intel, and Intel's efforts to break into the tablet market, just became, as TechZilla said, artificially important for some of us. I mean, ARM processors have some serious advantages, and the locking-out isn't ARM's fault, nor does ARM benefit in any way. Nonetheless, the average ARM PC will be useless to a non-Windows user.

Microsoft still seems to be on Intel's side in a way, in that Windows ARM devices have other limitations (no Desktop app, and no desktop applications or sideloading) but no matter which way the market goes and how prevalent ARM becomes, consumers lose out and Microsoft wins. ARM devices give Microsoft total control over their software, and Intel devices prop up Intel's monopoly - and Intel's architecture has serious limitations for ultraportable devices.

When the iPad is doing as well as it is, there's substantial reason to worry than an MSPad could do even better and cut deeply into the real PC market.

And yeah, it's another reason to root for Android, since Android devices tend to be ARM and tend to be unlocked (but as you say, not always.) That, along with the Spark tablet and whatever Canonical intends to do in 2014, seem like the only readily apparent ways to get a real OS on the new architecture. (And Android itself is likely to grow up quite a bit by then and be a real contender as a real OS along with Intel-based Windows, other Linuxes, and OSX.)

It would just be very nice if everyone could get along and go back to just competing according to their strengths.