Thoughts on all the Desktop Environment bashing recently and ideas on solving it.

[kio_http]

I've been seeing a lot of threads bashing Unity, Gnome 3 and other DE's recently and decided to write this thread.

Many people think that there is no problem at all and haters are just wasting their time. While I agree that they do waste time by tackling things the wrong way, I do believe that there is a problem (After all I'm sure they wouldn't complaint for nothing!)

Firstly myself, I was disappointed with the laggy GUI in gnome 3 be it gnome-shell or unity but I find that acceptable as gnome 3 is a new project and should improve with time. When KDE 4.0 was released I had the same experience but decided to stick with it and report the bugs. Not KDE 4.7 has come a long way from that and offers excellent performance.

Then there are other choices for the Gnome 2 lovers, its quite easy to make XFCE resemble like a Gnome 2 clone.

However I am under the impression that Canonical and Gnome (to a lesser extent) are being somewhat forceful and trying to get users to use what they want to use.

A perfect solution would be to give all variants equal importance. When I introduce new people to Linux, I show them Kubuntu (because that is what I use), then when I show them any other variant after that they dislike it. Loads of people like the stick with what they first use. In many ways Gnome 2 lovers refuse to switch to Xubuntu just because its not called "Ubuntu" or "Gnome", strange but very true.

In my opinion Canonical should discontinue the Kubuntu, Xubuntu etc branding and unite all projects (where is the "unity" :) at the moment). They should all have a common homepage featuring Ubuntu KDE, GNOME, XFCE and LXDE in a manner that shows no bias to any variant i.e no "default" signs, special textures on one logo, arrows etc. They should feature a tour page for each of them. xubuntu.org (http://xubuntu.org) has done a very decent thing by mentioning other variants.

If you look at Ubuntu's development team, they are focused on separating things too much. Ubuntu.com and canonical.com make no clear mention of the other variants at all, as if its something to be ashamed of. People feel that if they use a variant that they are using something considered inferior (Like I feel when I see Windows Starter Edition). Is this separation there because Ubuntu is the only varriant to feature Ubuntu One etc? The last time a Kubuntu developer made a Ubuntu One Client, Canonical decided to break it weeks after its existence by changing the product's API. (without any warning). Dropbox can be easily integrated in KDE but Ubuntu One cannot. On the other hand Kubuntu Devs do more upstream KDE work than on Kubuntu itself. The developer team is extremely small and has only one canonical developer (who was busy for 11.10's release and could not work on it). 90% of new users who come from Windows don't even know about any other variant then Ubuntu; a lot of them don't even know about other distros.

Why can't we just merge all the Ubuntu variants? I know many people who went back to Windows or OS X because they didn't like the interface of Ubuntu! I don't see any Unity with Ubuntu at all. All Ubuntu related sites (except the variant home pages and respective wikis) have Ubuntu branding and colors to enforce the idea that Ubuntu + Unity > Variants.

There are people who would rather downgrade to 10.10 than use 11.10 with XFCE (Not because of actual dislike).

Of course this unified project seems very unlikely considering that the current separation seems to be intentional to promote Ubuntu/ Unity.

[kio_http]

Maybe I should look into arch or chakra project,

[Gone fishing]

kio_http So basically you want the Opensuse solution? I think it is possibly better to do one thing well. Even Opnesuse does KDE best.

I'm not sure I think Ubuntu is right to concentrate on Unity - I think Ubuntu and Gnome are being brave and innovative, trying to do something radical. This has upset many users, possibly Mint have got it right by giving users an experience close to what they are used to and adding the Gnome 3 features as well (Mint 12). However, I put Mint on a partition and I still prefer Ubuntu.

I have a couple of thoughts - what is the matter with the old break out tree menu system? I would like access to such a menu for programs that I use, but infrequently; it would be easier and quicker than using the dash (right click from anywhere on the top menu bar?). Customization I think this may be what is needed add a few more features, even some of the Gnome 3 features (I like that adding opened apps to new workspaces feature) then survey what features users are actually using and use this to fine tune the installed defaults.

[grahammechanical]

I think that a recent comment by Mark Shuttleworth in an irc session is appropriate to this thread.


http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t15:00

Look for the question asked by kamilnadeem at 15:29.

Let us not forget that these built on Ubuntu but not Ubuntu operating systems are independent of Canonical. The people developing them have chosen a particular course. With open source you have the freedom to do that.

There is the freedom to make the project more like Ubuntu or less like Ubuntu. But why develop a different kind of Ubuntu if you then end up with being the same as Ubuntu? It does not make sense.

Is Canonical now to take over the development of these projects? Is that what you want?

That one Canonical developer who is working on Kubuntu is an employee of Canonical and because they pay his/her salary Canonical have the right to decide what work he/she does? Do you not agree?

Regards.

[Linuxratty]

kio_http

what is the matter with the old break out tree menu system? I would like access to such a menu for programs that I use, .

Nothing. I prefer it. I also prefer being able to have tabs for the Gimp neatly stacked on one desktop panel and tabs for FF on another desktop panel and to click on a stack and choose what I'm working with. I hate desktop shortcuts like alt tab and the only shortcut I use is for zoom (scroll super) and I want a desktop that lets me do the above. Give me that and I'm happy as a bunny in clover.

Your premise is quite interesting though.

[kio_http]

I think that a recent comment by Mark Shuttleworth in an irc session is appropriate to this thread.



Look for the question asked by kamilnadeem at 15:29.

Let us not forget that these built on Ubuntu but not Ubuntu operating systems are independent of Canonical. The people developing them have chosen a particular course. With open source you have the freedom to do that.

There is the freedom to make the project more like Ubuntu or less like Ubuntu. But why develop a different kind of Ubuntu if you then end up with being the same as Ubuntu? It does not make sense.

Is Canonical now to take over the development of these projects? Is that what you want?

That one Canonical developer who is working on Kubuntu is an employee of Canonical and because they pay his/her salary Canonical have the right to decide what work he/she does? Do you not agree?

Regards.

Actually I don't want Canonical to mess too much with Kubuntu like they have with ubuntu, but there should be more co-ordination i.e The person who made the Ubuntu One client for KDE should have known that the API was going to suddenly change or canonical should have helped fix the application. They should at least mention that the variants (official ones like Kubuntu) exist on the Canonical and Ubuntu homepage. Or rebrand the whole of it as ubuntu with gnome,kde xfce etc

[kio_http]

That one Canonical developer who is working on Kubuntu is an employee of Canonical and because they pay his/her salary Canonical have the right to decide what work he/she does? Do you not agree?

Regards.

Of course they have the right, but maybe they could consider other ways. Actually the Kubuntu developer community decides what that developer should do especially if some high priority work is needed to be done quickly.

[WinterMadness]

Agreed with OP

[bodhi.zazen]

OS / Desktop bashing is nothing new.

vim vs emacs
kde vs gnome

etc , etc

If you do not like gnome , don't use it.

If you wish to contribute code, documentation, themes, feature requests, etc, best use the proper feedback channels.

See: http://www.redhat.com/magazine/020jun06/features/bugzilla/

For how developers think.

"bashing" or ranting or complaining on these forums is a complete waste of time, the developers are not going to read it.

You really need to understand how the developers think and operate and learn how to interact with them in a positive way.

Imagine yourself in their shoes, lets take gnome 2 as an example. You are at a point where maintaining gnome 2 is untenable, it was nice while it lasted, but really the code need a major overhaul moving forward.

So you put a lot of time rolling out gnome 3. It is a massive project, and will take time to mature, but you release the stable code.

How would you take the various feedback ?

1. Gnome sucks.

2. Please consider adding in this feature.

3. Here is a bug I found in your code (bug report).

4. Here is a bug I found, and here is a potential fix.

99.99 % of the time , #1 is dead on arrival. It may spark a discussion, but honestly what would do with this type of feedback?

More so, do you have any idea what feedback the developers have given your post here on these forums on their mailing list ?

Exactly my point, the developers are not active on these forums, see the link I gave you above.

You need to learn to communicate effectively and rants on various forums are not going anywhere.

The "solution" is to teach people to use an alternate DE/ WM , teach them to code, and/or teach them to be more effective in their communication.

If the one who is "bashing" or "ranting" does not want one of the above "resolutions" , then /ignore is best and most frequent outcome.

Unless, of course, it crosses over to "trolling" or personal insults. In that event the OP are often banned once it becomes clear their only goal, or only perceived goal is to be disruptive.

Either way, ignore or ban, it is a complete failure to communicate and thus waste of time.

[Dry Lips]

I really pity the Windows crowd. When using Linux we can choose between several reasonably good DE's, so Gnome Shell/Unity isn't the end of the world for those of us who prefer something more traditional, because we'll just choose something else. But when Windows 8 is released, users don't have much of a choice if they don't like the new style... It's pretty much take it or leave it. I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see something similar to the Unity/Gnome Shell debate, once Windows 8 is released.

I think it is quite clear that what we're really seeing, is the impact from the tablets. The developers of various operative systems have started preparing for a new kind of computing, where the distinction between tablets and traditional desktop computers is blurred. This new approach to user interfaces is just a forewarning about what's to come.

So, perhaps we're missing the point when we're discussing Unity to death. Personally I favour a more traditional DE, but the changes to the DE is a minor one compared to the changes to computing in general that the tablet revolution is going to cause.

What will computing be like 4-5 years from now on?

[kio_http]

OS / Desktop bashing is nothing new.

vim vs emacs
kde vs gnome

etc , etc

If you do not like gnome , don't use it.

If you wish to contribute code, documentation, themes, feature requests, etc, best use the proper feedback channels.

See: http://www.redhat.com/magazine/020jun06/features/bugzilla/

For how developers think.

"bashing" or ranting or complaining on these forums is a complete waste of time, the developers are not going to read it.

You really need to understand how the developers think and operate and learn how to interact with them in a positive way.

Imagine yourself in their shoes, lets take gnome 2 as an example. You are at a point where maintaining gnome 2 is untenable, it was nice while it lasted, but really the code need a major overhaul moving forward.

So you put a lot of time rolling out gnome 3. It is a massive project, and will take time to mature, but you release the stable code.

How would you take the various feedback ?

1. Gnome sucks.

2. Please consider adding in this feature.

3. Here is a bug I found in your code (bug report).

4. Here is a bug I found, and here is a potential fix.

99.99 % of the time , #1 is dead on arrival. It may spark a discussion, but honestly what would do with this type of feedback?

More so, do you have any idea what feedback the developers have given your post here on these forums on their mailing list ?

Exactly my point, the developers are not active on these forums, see the link I gave you above.

You need to learn to communicate effectively and rants on various forums are not going anywhere.

The "solution" is to teach people to use an alternate DE/ WM , teach them to code, and/or teach them to be more effective in their communication.

If the one who is "bashing" or "ranting" does not want one of the above "resolutions" , then /ignore is best and most frequent outcome.

Unless, of course, it crosses over to "trolling" or personal insults. In that event the OP are often banned once it becomes clear their only goal, or only perceived goal is to be disruptive.

Either way, ignore or ban, it is a complete failure to communicate and thus waste of time.

I perfectly agree than Gnome 3 is better than Gnome 2 but needs a lot of work. There is potential. The intention of this post was not to change the Ubuntu developer's minds on how to treat the variants but rather what I feel about it. (lets face it this is never going to happen) Did you even read the post? My ideas were about giving the variants more importance not bashing Gnome 3. I do file a lot of bug reports for KDE as I understand how it works. As far as Gnome 3 is concerned by problems are performance related rather than feature related and I have no idea how Gnome 3 is built so I don't know which packages are faulty and certainly cannot provide fixes.

[keithpeter]

Imagine yourself in their shoes, lets take gnome 2 as an example. You are at a point where maintaining gnome 2 is untenable, it was nice while it lasted, but really the code need a major overhaul moving forward.

So you put a lot of time rolling out gnome 3. It is a massive project, and will take time to mature, but you release the stable code.

Hello bodhi.zen

I take the point you are making and I am taking steps to become involved with documentation efforts: writing instructions &c has always interested me.

My issue here (probably an historical one) is in the gap between your two paragraphs above. To bullet point it...

Gnome 2 code needs complete re-write
Lets change the way the GUI works completely
Gnome 3 gets rolled out to start an iteration cycle


My interest is how/why step 2 happened. I can think of various reasons (tablet/touch interfaces, research on user interaction). Any overview or documentation anywhere?

[kurt18947]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1890085
It seems from the link above that Unity was developed with an eye toward the non-keyboard/mouse UI. Isn't it fortunate that Unity, while being default isn't the only game in town? I've also noticed that HP, Lenovo and I think Acer have desktop all-in-one machines with touch-enabled screens. I can't see using a touch screen in lieu of a mouse but then I've never tried it. I wonder if tilting the touch screen and having it just above the keyboard rather than having it nearly vertical would be viable? I'm certainly no usability or ergonomics expert but at least some people are looking at alternatives to the classic monitor-sitting-on-a-beige-box model.

[Frogs Hair]

I don't know if there is a way eliminate DE bashing . I have no problem with displaying a link to with screen shots to all the Ubuntu flavors on the Ubuntu home page .

I don't understand the ranting and bashing because it is the end user that is responsible the installation of software on their own machine . Installing software based on an expectation is probably not a good idea and it best to have an idea of what you are installing .

Canonical has never installed a DE in my computer , I have . If you are unhappy with a product submit complaints and suggestions to the maker of the product .

[Linuxratty]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1890085
I wonder if tilting the touch screen and having it just above the keyboard rather than having it nearly vertical would be viable?

I'd think so..Or the screen being tilted and the keyboard being under the screen on rollers or virtual.
The screen would be where the keyboard is now,and at the same angle.
You would use touch to do everything...Yeah,that would make sense.

[wolfen69]

"Thoughts on all the Desktop Environment bashing recently and ideas on solving it"- Either contribute to a project, start your own project, or use something else. Forum rants accomplish nothing, and get stale real quick.

[inobe]

my idea is simple, i stated this in another thread, put a big sticky on the main page.

the sticky can contain customization tips and tricks.

a mod or admin described what was necessary to complete a bug report, that can be stuck up there too.

this community can link them to the sticky if they are too blind to see the sticky on the main page.

this way all that energy can be directed towards the devs, then the devs can either dismiss reports or validate them.

--------------------------------------------------

lets be realistic, you will get those that never posted in a forum, or those that do, that may never come back, those that don't care to file a report, those that will never contribute a thing, and use the site as a vent to release steam.

keep in mind, that the majority of these people never filed a report, because they didn't learn to, they didn't have to.

the reasoning behind it is almost moot, because it solves nothing to intervene.

if they really care they will file a report, if they don't, they won't waste their time and go away.

that should reduce the number of recurring discussions, and get more reports out to the devs instead of the forums, where these threads will disappear anyway.

[BenB1]

Rather seem to look at it in a skewed manner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy). Beyond this other people will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equanimity#Buddhism) use what they desire, you should as well. There really is no best. If it does as you require, great! Enjoy! Let others share this experience by letting them use what suits themselves. Be happy for their choice/s, move on. Of course, I may be a figment of some imagination or a troll of some type, too. Do not listen to my ignorant vitriol.

And yes, if need arises I can and do file bug reports. It is nice having such built into programs as convenience. Bug Buddy is also a nice idea. Further, think it would be a good idea to have a central bug report site for Linux. Call it Bug House, Squash Central, ticket Counter and direct folks to it. Provide generic forms, let users fill in required data, program, version etc. Then, keep the database updated, "Ticket #362 SOLVED: See #362 for info."

A central bug report zone would eliminate redundancy, confusion for users. It would also programmers via the same as well. Teams could assign a bug report envoy, whom would present daily updates to team. This is probably too simple, though. Am sure someone will explain a need for more complexity and a reason for our current system, or that my ideas are twenty years behind. *LOL*

[Khakilang]

I always use what works for me and play well with the hardware. I like Unity but it seem a bit laggy when I do some heavy stuff like processing hundreds of RAW images. So I go for Debian with Xfce 4.6 which give some improvement.

[StephanG]

I think what the OP is trying to say, is that there seems to be a MUCH larger focus on "Winning a user over to my distro/DE" than there is a focus on "Let us help you find the distro/DE that works best for you."

And, I can definitely understand the sentiment.

I LIKE Ubuntu. I like how simple it is to add a PPA, or install proprietary graphics drivers. But, I also like KDE. So, for me, that means Kubuntu.

Perhaps we should have a sticky, or thread or something for each DE where users of that DE, can post advantages to that DE, little tricks and features that a quick glance might not reveal.

Then, as a KDE user, I can add something to KDE's thread, for example, "If you want to copy specific songs to an external, USB device, or your phone connected as a USB device you can use Amarok. Just put the songs you want to copy in the playlist, select the playlist, and then simply drag it into Dolphin. And then select 'Copy Here'."

What I am thinking, is that threads like that, might provide a wealth of information to people looking for a DE meeting a specific set of requirements that they have, or a project that requires a certain level of performance or features.

I think what the OP was simply trying to get at, was "Let's see if we can make DE selection a matter of which DE I LOVE MOST, and not a case of which DE I HATE LEAST."

[kio_http]

I think what the OP is trying to say, is that there seems to be a MUCH larger focus on "Winning a user over to my distro/DE" than there is a focus on "Let us help you find the distro/DE that works best for you."

And, I can definitely understand the sentiment.

I LIKE Ubuntu. I like how simple it is to add a PPA, or install proprietary graphics drivers. But, I also like KDE. So, for me, that means Kubuntu.

Perhaps we should have a sticky, or thread or something for each DE where users of that DE, can post advantages to that DE, little tricks and features that a quick glance might not reveal.

Then, as a KDE user, I can add something to KDE's thread, for example, "If you want to copy specific songs to an external, USB device, or your phone connected as a USB device you can use Amarok. Just put the songs you want to copy in the playlist, select the playlist, and then simply drag it into Dolphin. And then select 'Copy Here'."

What I am thinking, is that threads like that, might provide a wealth of information to people looking for a DE meeting a specific set of requirements that they have, or a project that requires a certain level of performance or features.

I think what the OP was simply trying to get at, was "Let's see if we can make DE selection a matter of which DE I LOVE MOST, and not a case of which DE I HATE LEAST."

Since you seem interested in such a thread, see this one (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1889034) I wrote.:)

[Dustintendo]

im easy i guess, the only ones i really hate are kde and unity, and those could both be improved into something i would like.


my favorite right now is lxde, followed by xfce, and im keeping my eye on pantheon

[kio_http]

im easy i guess, the only ones i really hate are kde and unity, and those could both be improved into something i would like.


my favorite right now is lxde, followed by xfce, and im keeping my eye on pantheon

I'm curious what would you like to see in KDE and Unity.

[alexfish]

Personal thoughts (in brief)

A desktop: has to be clean and simple for new users, a terminal and menu system has no meaning to the younger generation (could place blame here , but will remain silent on this)

OK :switch it on , What do you see,

argh , Internet , You have Internet connections

click INTERNET , get connected . A terminal has no meaning to newbies

click office apps , do whatever ,type , save , send , email, browse photos ,
chat or text on-line etc etc .

gnome or kde is not the way to go. At the end of the day how many family members do you have which only do the above,
and also not Interested in looking at your latest code to get the system tweaked , or if your version of microsoft word is better). ask your self an honest question .

As for myself (been of the Nerd Nature ) , nothing stopping to produce Apps to do what ever is appropriate , a window is exactly what it is , A Window. That's the Solve. ( Don,t ask to elaborate on this).

alexfish

PS , only one question , Where is the help in Unity , (using the live usb stick with 11.10)




.

[jaimeaux]

The only problem I ever had with KDE was that it (or it's applications) crashed fairly often. I didn't mind the memory usage, as my computer handled it rather well....

Unity I'm still not sure about, but I can see why people do and don't like it. I'm pretty neutral on that one, as I'm still new to using it.

[kio_http]

The only problem I ever had with KDE was that it (or it's applications) crashed fairly often. I didn't mind the memory usage, as my computer handled it rather well....

Unity I'm still not sure about, but I can see why people do and don't like it. I'm pretty neutral on that one, as I'm still new to using it.

4.9 seems really stable here, maybe its time to try it again?

[Elfy]

Old thread closed.