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View Full Version : Interesting thread on Slashdot about a review of Dapper



henriquemaia
June 4th, 2006, 12:47 AM
The title says all. The link is:

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/03/1416201

Just an excerpt, to get an ideia of what's going on there:


"Impressive

(Score:5, Insightful)
by ditoa (952847) (http://slashdot.org/%7Editoa) http://images.slashdot.org/neutral.gif (http://linux.slashdot.org/zoo.pl?op=check&type=friend&uid=952847) on Saturday June 03, @05:25PM (#15462313 (http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=187412&cid=15462313))

I am a [very] long term Windows user and Windows Admin for a large corporation witl 100,000+ desktops. I love Windows. It is a superb operating system for a corporate environment. Sure it can be a pain in the **** because of updates but its ability to be centrally managed, etc is awesome. There is nothing else that can compete with it on an enterprise level, not even the stunning OS X 10.4. However Ubuntu 6.06 is an incredible operating system. While I am a Windows user I have a lot of respect for a lot of other operating systems. Linux being one of them. Ubuntu is probably the most professional release I have ever used. It installed without a hitch on my 6 months old IBM test workstation. I am very very impressed and I take my hat off to the Ubuntu team. The delay was worth it. Easily. They [the Ubuntu team] have done an incredible job and you have to respect that. I could easily give a Ubuntu system to a new computer user and they be able to learn how to use it for general tasks just as fast as a Windows system. You only have to go to the terminal as much as you need to go to the registry in Windows so it isn't really a battle on ease of use anymore. Ubuntu has brought Linux on par with Windows in that regard. Ubuntu just need to push on hardware support so that if it fails it fails gracfully. X server critical errors need to be replaced with a more graceful drop down to 800x600z256 colours similar to what Windows does. Also the most important thing to get working (other than the graphical interface) is the network. Once you have the network up and running you can get any other driver you need to. Ubuntu worked fine with my network card but I know that it isn't perfect from reports I have read online. I hope that this is fixed in the next release (7.01?). In a nutshell. SUPERB."

lapsey
June 4th, 2006, 01:29 AM
cue the hordes of -InsertOtherDistroHere- zealots and morons that couldnt get it to run on their 286 to get the chorus going


whoops:


It's not ready for grandma to use, and as such, it's not an XP replacement. It still takes many keystrokes to get MP3 and video codec support. Want a binary nvidia driver? Due to ideological reasons, you'll need to manually enable universe and install it. And exotic wifi protocol support is still spotty (but better). Try explaining all that to someone who is computer illiterate. All they know is that this stuff works automatically in XP or OSX.

Not that I'm ragging on Dapper Drake; I installed it the first day it came out. But it is being touted as an XP replacement when it isn't. I think it is only a marginal improvement over the last version in terms of ease of use for people who aren't already savvy. The improved theme certainly looks good, but that only goes so far when you are looking to replace XP for normal users. I think the Ubuntu team really needs to rethink leaving out MP3 decoders and regular codec support. Microsoft doesn't seem to have 'licensing issues' when they ship XP with those features, and neither does Apple.

oh /.

aysiu
June 4th, 2006, 01:31 AM
I don't know the last time my grandmother installed Windows.

Presumably anyone installing and configuring Ubuntu for "grandma" would be kind enough to run Automatix for her.

rado_london
June 4th, 2006, 02:01 AM
I don't know the last time my grandmother installed Windows.

Presumably anyone installing and configuring Ubuntu for "grandma" would be kind enough to run Automatix for her.
Nice Point aysiu. I read somewhere that to get propriate codecs it is $60000. If this is true Mr Shuttleworth can think about adding them. This isnt much is it?

polo_step
June 4th, 2006, 02:03 AM
I don't know the last time my grandmother installed Windows.

Presumably anyone installing and configuring Ubuntu for "grandma" would be kind enough to run Automatix for her.
I had problems with Automatix as it was not properly maintained, apparently because 5.10 was already old business a month or two back and nobody was checking to keep the internal info good.

I found that pretty discouraging. If something's there for the purpose of making installation transparently easy for new users, he shouldn't have to find and log onto the Ubuntu forums and ask around for a day or two until someone tells him that he has to manually update a dead link or change a repository address in Automatix.

Sort of defeats the whole purpose. After a couple of these, I just blew it off and went back to XP. ](*,)

rado_london
June 4th, 2006, 02:53 AM
I had problems with Automatix as it was not properly maintained, apparently because 5.10 was already old business a month or two back and nobody was checking to keep the internal info good.

I found that pretty discouraging. If something's there for the purpose of making installation transparently easy for new users, he shouldn't have to find and log onto the Ubuntu forums and ask around for a day or two until someone tells him that he has to manually update a dead link or change a repository address in Automatix.

Sort of defeats the whole purpose. After a couple of these, I just blew it off and went back to XP. ](*,)
Stupid excuse mate! Ohnestly now there is AUtomatix which combines BB and DD . ANd it is one click away just search. I would think you didnt eenjoy ubuntu because you left after the first difficuly of difference. Well enjoy trojans and spartans hahhaaaa:p

Iandefor
June 4th, 2006, 03:02 AM
Nice Point aysiu. I read somewhere that to get propriate codecs it is $60000. If this is true Mr Shuttleworth can think about adding them. This isnt much is it? $60,000 as a one-time license fee for MP3 codecs. You can also pay something like 35 cents per-license.

Fluendo is working on a legal DVD player for Linux; but it won't be Free.

Shuttleworth won't include MP3 codecs for good reason- Ubuntu is comitted to Free software. As soon as you get something patent-encumbered, it isn't Free.

rado_london
June 4th, 2006, 03:05 AM
$60,000 as a one-time license fee for MP3 codecs. You can also pay something like 35 cents per-license.

Fluendo is working on a legal DVD player for Linux; but it won't be Free.

Shuttleworth won't include MP3 codecs for good reason- Ubuntu is comitted to Free software. As soon as you get something patent-encumbered, it isn't Free.
I mostly agree with that. But how many people use Automatix and similar?

Iandefor
June 4th, 2006, 03:18 AM
I mostly agree with that. But how many people use Automatix and similar? That's beside the point- Shuttleworth's goal is to provide a Free desktop operating system. Not one that's not all that Free, but has some yummy codecs.

BoyOfDestiny
June 4th, 2006, 03:26 AM
As soon as you get something patent-encumbered, it isn't Free.

I have to disagree with that last statement. Since it's likely software patents apply to a lot of things. Although, thankfully, not applicable in many other countries...

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6727830.PN.&OS=PN/6727830&RS=PN/6727830

Microsoft holds a patent on the "double click".

Seriously, the software patents system is broken. I would like them to be abolished... Anyway, I guess my point is, I'd love to see an OS that doesn't infringe on any software patent. Open or closed, I deny that any such OS exists. :P

aysiu
June 4th, 2006, 04:13 AM
There are plenty of cost-free distros that include proprietary codecs--Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Blag, Xandros (well, the open circulation edition is cost-free).

As far as I know, it's not a cost issue so much as a philosophical/ideological issue--Ubuntu is committed to open source software, not just cost-free software. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's the primary reason MP3 and other popular proprietary codecs are not included in a base installation.

Jucato
June 4th, 2006, 04:24 AM
I also think that it's more of a commitment to Free Software, rather than money. I'm sure Mark could afford to pay those license fee, but that would be actually encouraging and financing the support of propriety codecs/software/etc.

One thing I don't understand, though. If it's really illegal to use some of those restricted codecs in some countries, how come distros like KNOPPIX, MEPIS, etc. can get away with?

aysiu
June 4th, 2006, 04:33 AM
One thing I don't understand, though. If it's really illegal to use some of those restricted codecs in some countries, how come distros like KNOPPIX, MEPIS, etc. can get away with? I, too, am curious about this. Is it just that Ubuntu likes to play it on the safe side...? Or is it that the assumption is Knoppix is a German distro and doesn't have to play by United States laws.

Though... Mepis and PCLinuxOS are both based out of the US. I don't know what's up with that.

brallan
June 4th, 2006, 05:17 AM
I don't think we need to worry about whether or not this is too hard for Granma Jones, everybody here knows that if some granma gets on the forum here she will get help. The real reason she isn't here is because most people are too afraid to step foot outside of the flock despite the fact that they're being shorn quite regularly.

It's users without internet or without access to a store which sells some application which could fulfill a function that the OS doesn't itself fulfill who may be tougher to really help. And I think Mark is right to think of them first. It's right not to ship on DVD.

The truth of it is, there's lots of things on ANY operating system that just don't work for a user who doesn't know how to get help. We need to stop beating ourselves up and remember how far this has all come, and that it's a continuously building and strengthening process.

I'm an ex-windows user because of Ubuntu, and yes, there are certain non-free things that I use because I can't find an alternative, but I almost always prefer the free software even on windows. But look, try finding a non-free CD burner for your XP machine if it didn't ship with one. I looked for days, and couldn't find anything.

Its the cross-platform apps that I believe will eventually squash this debate. How nice would it be to sit down to a machine on any sort of architecture and basically have the same apps for almost all of your needs because open source sooner or later produces the best product? I'd love to see that day.

mstlyevil
June 4th, 2006, 06:06 AM
I don't think we need to worry about whether or not this is too hard for Granma Jones, everybody here knows that if some granma gets on the forum here she will get help. The real reason she isn't here is because most people are too afraid to step foot outside of the flock despite the fact that they're being shorn quite regularly.

It's users without internet or without access to a store which sells some application which could fulfill a function that the OS doesn't itself fulfill who may be tougher to really help. And I think Mark is right to think of them first. It's right not to ship on DVD.

The truth of it is, there's lots of things on ANY operating system that just don't work for a user who doesn't know how to get help. We need to stop beating ourselves up and remember how far this has all come, and that it's a continuously building and strengthening process.

I'm an ex-windows user because of Ubuntu, and yes, there are certain non-free things that I use because I can't find an alternative, but I almost always prefer the free software even on windows. But look, try finding a non-free CD burner for your XP machine if it didn't ship with one. I looked for days, and couldn't find anything.

Its the cross-platform apps that I believe will eventually squash this debate. How nice would it be to sit down to a machine on any sort of architecture and basically have the same apps for almost all of your needs because open source sooner or later produces the best product? I'd love to see that day.

CD burner XP pro is freeware and has all the features the OEM Nero is lacking fo Windows XP.

henriquemaia
June 4th, 2006, 06:40 AM
cue the hordes of -InsertOtherDistroHere- zealots and morons that couldnt get it to run on their 286 to get the chorus going


whoops:



oh /.
One of the answers to that poster you quoted is very interesting:


"Re:Dapper is good, but it's not there yet.

(Score:5, Insightful)
by say (191220) (http://slashdot.org/%7Esay) http://images.slashdot.org/neutral.gif (http://linux.slashdot.org/zoo.pl?op=check&type=friend&uid=191220) <sigve@wolfraidah . n o> on Saturday June 03, @05:38PM (#15462368 (http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=187412&cid=15462368))
(http://eksploder.mine.nu/blog)

Bah! Is MS paying these people to write one post like this on every mention of linux progress anywhere?
Dear Sir,
Your post is addressing the needs of a computer user (Grandma). You argue that she could not use Ubuntu Dapper for her computing needs. According to you, she would have problems with the following:
Getting mp3 and video support
Getting a binary NVIDIA proprietary video driver
Getting a driver for her exotic wi-fi cardBecause this is why she can't switch, I am guessing that you presume she does not know anyone who can help her with that. Fine. And because you argue that this is what makes Ubuntu inapt as an XP replacement, you must be arguing that she em can do all of that on her own with Windows XP.
"Grandma" does not exist, so stop pulling her out. Let's analyse what kind of person Grandma would have to be to fit the description: She is concerned about the performance loss between the nv and nvidia drivers, but unable to follow the three steps documented under "documentation" on Ubuntus webpage to get the nvidia driver. Also, she is completely able to download and install an updated executable from the correct website when she is in Windows. That kind of person does not exist.
I am really sick and tired over these kind of comments. "It is really good, I use it, but I doubt anyone could manage to use it". What you are trying to say, is that not everyone can setup and manage a computer, and maintain a healthy, powerful and updated operating system on it. This is old news. It applies just as much to your favoured operating system (which pshyciatric examination would reveal to be Windows) as Ubuntu Dapper.
As a counter-point, and an exercise to the GP, please do compare the routine of installing office applications on Windows compared to Ubuntu Dapper. Oh, it came pre-installed on Dapper? OK, that's unfair. Then compare installing any other application on Dapper vs. Windows. The ease-of-use for new users is vastly better with Dapper's extremely user-friendly shell over apt-get and dpkg. Windows is more difficult on this much more common task for a newbie than installing custom, 4%-extra-performance-gaining graphic drivers."

aysiu
June 4th, 2006, 06:46 AM
That's a great reply.

I, too, am sick and tired of these theoretical users--"grandma," "Joe Sixpack," "average user."

Every "average" user I know downloads and installs spyware on her Windows computer, can barely get through a setup.exe, is afraid to install Firefox extension or theme, and doesn't know how to enable the "show desktop" button on Windows XP (it doesn't show up on a fresh install).

These "average" users ask their tech-savvy friends for help. They can't do things themselves. So the only difference is really:

1. When you use Windows and can't figure out something, you ask a tech-savvy friend or relative in real life.

2. When you use Ubuntu and can't figure out something, you ask a whole bunch of tech-savvy "friends" on the Ubuntu Forums.

I've found #2 to be an invaluable resource.

polo_step
June 4th, 2006, 07:29 AM
Stupid excuse mate!
No, it's not.

My point is perfectly valid, particularly in the context of the thread: If one is going to direct "his grandmother" to Automatix, it's not going to be any help if Automatix is broken, is it?

It's certainly not a new user's job to troubleshoot that.

Try to pay attention.

aysiu
June 4th, 2006, 07:34 AM
It seems that about 83% of Automatix users have no problems using Automatix (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=123569). You can read that statistic one of two ways.

On the one hand, that's the vast majority of Automatix users, meaning that's it generally works. On the other hand, that still leaves 17% with some kind of problem (even if it's a minor one, or ones that people aren't sure are Automatix-related). So, it's good, but it's not foolproof.

polo_step
June 4th, 2006, 07:35 AM
1. When you use Windows and can't figure out something, you ask a tech-savvy friend or relative in real life.

2. When you use Ubuntu and can't figure out something, you ask a whole bunch of tech-savvy "friends" on the Ubuntu Forums.

I've found #2 to be an invaluable resource.
It is, but don't overestimate it. In the past year, I'd say the forum here solved maybe 15%-20% of the technical problems I encountered. That's about par for any tech forum, I think, for any subject. The goal is to have fewer problems to begin with. ;)

Fortunately, 6.06 appears to be far less troublesome.

polo_step
June 4th, 2006, 07:40 AM
83% of Automatix users have no problems using Automatix[...] So, it's good, but it's not foolproof.
It needs to be maintained regularly, or else have more stable links, repositories, etc. There was nothing wrong with the way it worked when I had trouble with it, it just couldn't access stuff because it had changed.

prizrak
June 4th, 2006, 08:25 AM
It needs to be maintained regularly, or else have more stable links, repositories, etc. There was nothing wrong with the way it worked when I had trouble with it, it just couldn't access stuff because it had changed.
While I understand where you are comming from Automatix started off as a one person thing now I think there are more people maintaining it. So it isn't fair to expect it to be as well maintained as lets say Gaim.

The point that aysiu and others were trying to make is that the "average user" (Gramma, Joe Sixpack, Dubya) will not be installing a whole new OS by him/herself. That is way beyond the expertise of anyone who is not computer proficient. When I first started with Windows I couldn't even use a restore CD, despite having DOS experience. The point was that those users would be introduced into the world of Linux (Ubuntu) by someone knowledgeable who would be able to either run Automatix or manually configure everything (which is quite possible and easy to do by simply following HOW-TO's and guides).

This is the biggest issue with the "Gramma Argument", Windows is preinstalled and preconfigured by someone infinetly more knowledgeable than "Gramma" (or me for that matter). Ubuntu is not (unless you go to one of those obscure sites that sell Linux preloaded computers). Most users couldn't even configure their own e-mail client much less an OS (be it Windows or Linux).

egon spengler
June 4th, 2006, 09:57 AM
No, it's not.

My point is perfectly valid, particularly in the context of the thread: If one is going to direct "his grandmother" to Automatix, it's not going to be any help if Automatix is broken, is it?

It's certainly not a new user's job to troubleshoot that.

Try to pay attention.

You pay attention too, the Grandma issue has already been thoroughly refuted. Nobody is championing ubuntu as so good that your tech illiterate Grandma can use it, she is nothing more than an apparation. A trump card pulled out by those who, for whatever reason, feel impelled to try and derail things whenever they see praise lavished on *insert software here*

3rdalbum
June 4th, 2006, 12:05 PM
What about the Grandma who wants to play Ogg Vorbis files on her Windows computer? Ubuntu has Ogg Vorbis support by default and Windows doesn't. Thus, Windows is not ready for the desktop.

And as for Automatix being broken: You've gotta read help files on Linux anyway, unless you've grown up with Linux. Why not just start early and read Ubuntu's help files? There's some great information in the Starter Guide in the Help program, about how to enable restricted formats. There's some brilliant information there about how to add all sorts of convenient functionality to Gnome and Nautilus.

I've never used Automatix, you don't need Automatix unless you're a big SOFTIE, and the latter part of this post was meant to be slightly humourous :-)