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irv
November 10th, 2011, 06:46 PM
Some problems with moving away from Ubuntu. The major problem is the volume of developers who are making improvements to Ubuntu. If you move away from this distro you will miss out on some neat and interesting things that are happening. http://www.webupd8.org/2011/11/expected-changes-in-ubuntu-1204-precise.html.

Next, the ability to take part in the improvements being made. (Bug testing and suggestions).

And Last being part of the largest group of Linux support team. (This forum).

Just some thoughts I had because of talk out here about jumping ship. I try other distros but have no intentions of leaving Ubuntu as one of my main OS's. Not that I do not find other interesting but Ubuntu is the big player.

cariboo
November 10th, 2011, 08:21 PM
Under the gui, linux is linux, if you know what you are doing, what disto you use is irrelevant.

The big thing that Ubuntu based distributions do is add all the bits that you would have to add yourself using other distributions in order to have a good user experience.

The other thing is that with the ease of use that the devs have created, a user doesn't have to learn any of the underpinnings, which is a reason why many don't stick with other non-ubuntu based distributions for long.

Pithikos
November 10th, 2011, 08:41 PM
Personally one of the biggest reasons I use Ubuntu is simply because of this forum. I find newsgroups etc devestating.

irv
November 10th, 2011, 09:02 PM
Under the gui, linux is linux, if you know what you are doing, what disto you use is irrelevant.

The big thing that Ubuntu based distributions do is add all the bits that you would have to add yourself using other distributions in order to have a good user experience.

The other thing is that with the ease of use that the devs have created, a user doesn't have to learn any of the underpinnings, which is a reason why many don't stick with other non-ubuntu based distributions for long.

Very good points. I fall in the last one. I was somewhat of a programmer years ago, but with age I have become a user more then a developer. I still like finding bugs and can see where things could be improved. We can all do our share in the area of helping other, and that's where the name Ubuntu come into play.

3rdalbum
November 11th, 2011, 03:20 AM
The other thing is that people are talking about "moving away from Ubuntu" because of the removal of the Gnome 2 desktop. What will they move to? The Gnome 2 desktop is still present in a limited number of other distros, but it won't be around forever. It's unmaintained, and who knows how long the Mate project will continue or if it has the development resources to actually maintain the software and keep it running with new distros.

irv
November 11th, 2011, 04:03 AM
I know many out here remember the split between KDE and Gnome, Now we have the split between KDE, Gnome 2.X, Gnome 3.X, Unity, Xfce, etc. etc.

LowSky
November 11th, 2011, 07:44 AM
I know many out here remember the split between KDE and Gnome, Now we have the split between KDE, Gnome 2.X, Gnome 3.X, Unity, Xfce, etc. etc.

KDE killed itself with KDE 4, and it is still hurting from that mess. Gnome hurt itself with Gnome 3 but in reality it still has major support. XFCE never catches on with the masses because of its high reliance it users need of gtk or qt and now with LXDE being even lighter weight its almost not relevant. Unity is why users will try nearly anything else. I'm not saying its bad, I'm just saying user's don't seem to like it. Sorta like Vista.

The best UI are ones created out of thin air. if the people behind gnome-shell created it as a option for gnome most users would complain about its lack of function, nor would Unity exist. Actually maybe it would as Ubuntu's team love creating half thought out projects, and refining them over 2-5 years. Sorry I'm still mad on how poorly Ubuntu software center is/was, how Ubuntu One can't be used by other distros, or that unity, well exists, and needs compiz.

Thewhistlingwind
November 11th, 2011, 07:47 AM
Actually maybe it would as Ubuntu's team love creating half thought out projects, and refining them over 2-5 years. Sorry I'm still mad on how poorly Ubuntu software center is/was, how Ubuntu One can't be used by other distros, or that unity, well exists, and needs compiz.

This. The amount of time it took to add Ubuntu one support for windows tells me they did a cloud service, and did it wrong.

In cloud your first priority is client portability.

LowSky
November 11th, 2011, 09:45 AM
This. The amount of time it took to add Ubuntu one support for windows tells me they did a cloud service, and did it wrong.

In cloud your first priority is client portability.

Hopefully no one brings up you can use the web interface, it isn't as great as being part of your file system.

irv
November 11th, 2011, 03:39 PM
From the last couple of posts I see a few problem with staying with Ubuntu. So now we have to put everything on the balance scale and see which way the scale tips. For or against staying with Ubuntu and Unity. I include Unity because it is the default DE.

Copper Bezel
November 11th, 2011, 07:15 PM
Why?

I don't use Ubuntu One or Unity; the former is a poor cousin to Dropbox and the latter is not relevant to me. I liked the Ayatana work with the indicators, but Gnome 3 makes that irrelevant, too. And that's just the Ubuntu-specific stuff. I already feel like I'm distro hopping to upgrade to Gnome 3 in the first place, particularly under Shell; until a month ago, my favorite pieces of software were probably Compiz, Synapse, and DockBarX. Guess what I'm not using anymore.

I have a working system, though. I have access to PPAs, commercial software like Dropbox and Chrome built against my system, and everything that Launchpad brings along. I have a six-month release cycle that keeps things current without being too fidgety.

Ubuntu isn't a corporation, and desktop Linux isn't a single company's product. When you start to think of Ubuntu and Canonical itself as the market testing and publicity arm of Debian, these little niggles start to go away.

Anyway, I haven't really seen that much of an upswell suggesting moving away from Ubuntu. There are a few people who talk about Arch or Fedora, sure, but they're vastly outnumbered by the people moving to Xubuntu and Mint. (I know that Mint at least has its own separate servers and repositories - which Xubuntu doesn't, of course - but it's still an Ubuntu remaster and broadly equivalent to having someone else set up your Ubuntu system for you.)

Ubuntu isn't an interface or a cloud service. It's curation and maintenance and a lot of bug fixing and tweaks. It's having my wireless reconnect immediately after resuming from suspend and never having to configure Xorg settings.

VanillaMozilla
November 11th, 2011, 07:32 PM
Some problems with moving away from Ubuntu...

The only problem I can see is what to replace it with. Unless they restore Gnome, I don't know what the hell I'll do. This is a real mess. Maybe hold my nose and go back to Windows. Crap.

Thewhistlingwind
November 11th, 2011, 08:02 PM
Some problems with moving away from Ubuntu...

The only problem I can see is what to replace it with. Unless they restore Gnome, I don't know what the hell I'll do. This is a real mess. Maybe hold my nose and go back to Windows. Crap.

XFCE,KDE,LXDE.

One of those, or a tiling window manager.

That; or you can use one of the need-to-know-lua/etc DE's and customize it as much as you like.

VanillaMozilla
November 11th, 2011, 10:45 PM
Thanks, but I've looked at XFCE and KDE. I'm evaluating them on one computer, but I can't say that I'm optimistic. That's not a casual impression either.

For a start, not one of them has the nicely organized menu system of Gnome 2 Ubuntu. And I don't really want to make a career of customizing my computer desktop. And as much as I hate to make appearance a criterion, I'm not sure I can foist the primitive appearance of XFCE on others, or on myself for that matter. I'm not all that impressed by KDE4 either, because I'm not.

I don't want to make this your problem, but the transition to Unity is similar to a sudden change between primitive versions of Windows and Mac. Can you imagine if you woke up one day and your Mac Classic suddenly looked like Windows 3.1 or vice-versa? You can't just make that kind of change without angering and losing a lot of people.

To me, Unity is a total loss, and I won't be going there. I know I'm not alone.

johnnybgoode83
November 11th, 2011, 10:52 PM
I have done a fair bit of distro hopping, even since Unity first appeared on the scene, and I always came back to Ubuntu. Now, I am a curious SOB and I know that I will always want to try other distros so I decided to use an old computer for distro hopping while my main machine will be dedicated to Ubuntu. It is the best for my needs and beyond my curiosity I will continue to use it Unity and all (which I have grown quite fond of).

Copper Bezel
November 11th, 2011, 10:57 PM
I don't want to make this your problem, but the transition to Unity is similar to a sudden change between primitive versions of Windows and Mac. Can you imagine if you woke up one day and your Mac Classic suddenly looked like Windows 3.1 or vice-versa? You can't just make that kind of change without angering and losing a lot of people.

I don't actually advocate this as it's a bit of an abomination, but.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17749392/Screenshots/20111111/frippery2.png (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17749392/Screenshots/20111111/frippery.png)

VanillaMozilla
November 11th, 2011, 11:19 PM
Is that Gnome 3 fallback or whatever? Yeah, it's not so terrible, but it's an unfortunate regression from Gnome 2.

For one thing, it's moving in the direction of dumping all the applications into one menu. Ubuntu and Fedora had it right with the three main menus -- more choices at the top.

Linuxratty
November 11th, 2011, 11:20 PM
Can you imagine if you woke up one day and your Mac Classic suddenly looked like Windows 3.1 or vice-versa? You can't just make that kind of change without angering and losing a lot of people.

To me, Unity is a total loss, and I won't be going there. I know I'm not alone.

You are correct.

I've already said my piece on this,so I won't repeat myself.
Enlightenment is another option you can try.
I'll also be leaving Ubuntu come spring..I have plenty of options and will stay with some Linux distro or other.
These look good as do all the non U 'buntus.

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=bodhi

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mepis

Copper Bezel
November 11th, 2011, 11:54 PM
Is that Gnome 3 fallback or whatever? Yeah, it's not so terrible, but it's an unfortunate regression from Gnome 2.
Nope. Still Shell, with a couple of extensions enabled.

VanillaMozilla
November 12th, 2011, 12:31 AM
How do you enable it? That's one thing I have to evaluate.

cariboo
November 12th, 2011, 12:36 AM
Some problems with moving away from Ubuntu...

The only problem I can see is what to replace it with. Unless they restore Gnome, I don't know what the hell I'll do. This is a real mess. Maybe hold my nose and go back to Windows. Crap.

Debian stable, it still is Gnome 2 based.

Copper Bezel
November 12th, 2011, 01:35 AM
VanillaMozilla:

Install gnome-tweak-tool, then visit this page (http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html). All the extensions used in the screenshot are from the Frippery pack by Ron Yorston, available in a .tar.gz file you can install from the tweak tool's Extensions tab (or you can extract the folders into ~/.local/share/gnome-shell/extensions manually, then launch the tweak tool to activate them.)

vanlong441
November 12th, 2011, 09:57 AM
And I don't really want to make a career of customizing my computer desktop.
...
I know I'm not alone.
Yes, you are not alone. There are many people don't have time to read a few guides and do a few clicks to make things meet their need.

neu5eeCh
November 12th, 2011, 03:07 PM
Under the gui, linux is linux, if you know what you are doing, what disto you use is irrelevant.

I strongly disagree. That *if* is such a big *if* that it all but confirms irv's original post. Yes, you can get the source code and recompile for this or that distro, but irv is right. Ubuntu is the "Windows" of the Linux landscape. There are many tweaks and innovations that are, at least initially, Ubuntu specific. Even though I don't use Ubuntu proper (don't like Unity), I stick with Ubuntu derivatives like Xubuntu, Mint and others.

neu5eeCh
November 12th, 2011, 03:23 PM
For a start, not one of them has the nicely organized menu system of Gnome 2 Ubuntu. And I don't really want to make a career of customizing my computer desktop.

I'm in your camp. That said, methinks thou does protest too much. I recently installed Edubuntu for my kids, opted for Unity, and installed a classic menu indicator (http://www.ubuntugeek.com/how-to-install-classicmenu-indicator-on-ubuntu-11-10-oneiric-ocelot.html). Yes, I know, it solves only a small part of the overall problem with G3 & Unity, but it's a sign of things to come. I don't doubt that G3 & Unity will become increasingly configurable. Take a look at Mint's just released (today) Mint 12 - G3 with MSGE (http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_lisa_whatsnew.php). Things are looking up. :popcorn:

Johnny3
November 12th, 2011, 03:50 PM
I finely gave up on Ubuntu. I have be using it of and on for a few years. I started with just have a hard drive for windows and Ubuntu and just switch back and forth. But it took about 15 minutes got to be a pain to do. I have a Canon print and camera that I love but just doesn't work that well with Ubuntu. Then about 1.5 years ago I build a new PC It does OK with Ubuntu but I got a ATI video card that does do that well with Ubuntu. So I pulled out my old PC built in 2007. It runs Ubuntu better and almost as fast as my new PC. So I use it most of the time. Turn the windows PC on once a week to update or for pictures to print. But with it getting older I am ready to update it and finding Ubuntu(Linux) hard ware is a pain. But worth the trouble because Ubuntu I think is better than windows for what I do. This forum makes it so much easier to use Ubuntu that I always come back to Ubuntu over other Linux flavors.
Thanks and God Bless Johnny3 65+++
PS thanks all of you for helping me so much.

VanillaMozilla
November 22nd, 2011, 07:05 PM
Does anyone know if Gnome Classic (or whatever it's called in 11.10) will be supported in the future? And does anyone know where they hid the garbage can?

philinux
November 22nd, 2011, 07:16 PM
Does anyone know if Gnome Classic (or whatever it's called in 11.10) will be supported in the future? And does anyone know where they hid the garbage can?

Maybe the ubuntu +1 testing forum is what you need.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1873765

Skara Brae
November 22nd, 2011, 08:52 PM
I am running 10.04 (the LTS).

Something I was wondering about ever since support for 7.10 was cancelled: is there a way to download updates for, say 10.04, so that I can burn them to a CD/DVD-r and "re-update" 10.04 manually when support for 10.04 is cancelled?

One can (more or less) do that with Windows and with OS X: downloading updates.

Why do I wonder about that? Because, when 7.10 was dropped, I had to install a new version, while 7.10 worked fine for me.

One of the "hassles" of Windows was, and still is, that one needs to isntall a new version, only to be "safe"... 95-98-2000/ME-XP-Vista... I've had them all, not because I absolutely wanted to, but because I had to. (Sort of)

Why do I (every time again) need to get a new version of my car? I like the car that I have. Same thing.

I have looked at Unity (from afar). I don't like it.
I've seen Windows 8. Awful. It looks like something for toddler (No, I will not buy Win 8).
What will I do in 2 years from now, when support for 10.04 is dropped? Or later, when Gnome 2 disappears (and there is no alternative that I will like)?

I can keep 10.04 and not care about updates.

Or maybe I can buy a (new) Mac.
(Don't anyone mock: OS X is a good/safe/user friendly as GNU/Linux, and both are way better than Windows, as all here know).

Mark Phelps
November 22nd, 2011, 11:29 PM
There was a time when customizing in Ubuntu generally meant a log of hand-crafting using the CLI, hunting down packages using Synaptic, and even, in some cases, writing or running scripts.

In those days, moving away from Ubuntu into something like Mandriva, or PCLinux OS, or Fedora meant having to make really major changes in how you did things.

For example, instead of using dpkg or apt-get or aptitude, you would need to learn how to use yast.

But in recent Ubuntu releases, a lot of these details are being "hidden" from folks -- just notice that Synaptic isn't installed by default anymore, instead, folks are expected to use the Software Center.

Same is true of using Dash to find and launch apps, instead of manually editing the Main Menu to add your own menu items.

It's not "dumbing it down"; instead, it's "hiding the details".

Which, ironically, will make it easier and easier to move away from Ubuntu.

When all you have to know is which button to click to install something, you can learn a new button-oriented-GUI app in a few minutes -- and that's if you take your time.

Same is true of theming. I did a LOT of custom theming back in the 8.x days, but now with Unity, I don't see the point of continuing with that work. When everyone will end up using exactly the same desktop, then it will come down to which desktop you like -- and once again, if one of the other distros provides a more attractive desktop, then migrating away from Ubuntu will not be a big deal.

Also, we may not know it here, but other distros have support forums as well.

irv
November 23rd, 2011, 03:11 PM
I am running 10.04 (the LTS).

Something I was wondering about ever since support for 7.10 was cancelled: is there a way to download updates for, say 10.04, so that I can burn them to a CD/DVD-r and "re-update" 10.04 manually when support for 10.04 is cancelled?

One can (more or less) do that with Windows and with OS X: downloading updates.

Why do I wonder about that? Because, when 7.10 was dropped, I had to install a new version, while 7.10 worked fine for me.

One of the "hassles" of Windows was, and still is, that one needs to isntall a new version, only to be "safe"... 95-98-2000/ME-XP-Vista... I've had them all, not because I absolutely wanted to, but because I had to. (Sort of)

Why do I (every time again) need to get a new version of my car? I like the car that I have. Same thing.

I have looked at Unity (from afar). I don't like it.
I've seen Windows 8. Awful. It looks like something for toddler (No, I will not buy Win 8).
What will I do in 2 years from now, when support for 10.04 is dropped? Or later, when Gnome 2 disappears (and there is no alternative that I will like)?

I can keep 10.04 and not care about updates.

Or maybe I can buy a (new) Mac.
(Don't anyone mock: OS X is a good/safe/user friendly as GNU/Linux, and both are way better than Windows, as all here know).

Here are all the downloads for the older version of Ubuntu: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/ and I believe they were the most up-to-date versions with all the updates.

Docaltmed
November 23rd, 2011, 03:13 PM
Thanks, but I've looked at XFCE and KDE. I'm evaluating them on one computer, but I can't say that I'm optimistic. That's not a casual impression either.

For a start, not one of them has the nicely organized menu system of Gnome 2 Ubuntu.

wat?

KDE has that nice little button with K and the gear. Click on that, and voila! Nested menus! (If that's your thing.)

I've used KDE intermittently over the past few years. I can't for the life of me understand why if you like the taskbar-menu Gnome thing, you wouldn't like KDE. It has taskbar. It has menus. It also has great graphics.

irv
November 23rd, 2011, 04:04 PM
wat?

KDE has that nice little button with K and the gear. Click on that, and voila! Nested menus! (If that's your thing.)

I've used KDE intermittently over the past few years. I can't for the life of me understand why if you like the taskbar-menu Gnome thing, you wouldn't like KDE. It has taskbar. It has menus. It also has great graphics.

I don't know if it is just me, but I feel at home with most DE. I have 4 installed on my laptop. Sometimes I am in KDE or Unity or even Mint. These are the three I am using the most. I do have to go into Win7 once in awhile but not often. My plan is to do some beta testing on Ubuntu 12.04 next month.
But I agree with you on KDE. If you like and use Gnome 2.32 it is easy to go to KDE. At the moment I am using Unity in 11.10.

VanillaMozilla
November 24th, 2011, 04:48 PM
I've used KDE intermittently over the past few years. I can't for the life of me understand why if you like the taskbar-menu Gnome thing, you wouldn't like KDE. It has taskbar. It has menus. It also has great graphics.
I don't remember exactly what I didn't like about it. My vague impression is that it's a little messier, but that could be wrong. Ubuntu and Fedora were just so nicely and cleanly organized and visually appealing, with most everything nicely placed in those Applications, Places, and Systems menus. AND fast to use. Everything else is a shock. I have a computer I'm using to try desktops, and KDE is definitely one of the possibilities. It will get an extended an leisurely look.

vasa1
November 24th, 2011, 05:32 PM
... I know that Mint at least has its own separate servers and repositories ...

From what I remember (probably incorrectly), Mint 11 (Katya) did rely on Ubuntu's repositories. No idea about servers at all.

irv
November 24th, 2011, 06:03 PM
From what I remember (probably incorrectly), Mint 11 (Katya) did rely on Ubuntu's repositories. No idea about servers at all.

After installing Mint 12 could not do update from their repository. (Lisa), had to switch to Ubuntu then everything worked find.
I only use it for testing and right now I am using Ubuntu 11.10 with Unity and am planning to go to Ubuntu 12.04 Alpha 1 next month for beta testing.
At any given time I have 4 OS's on my laptop.

cloyd
November 26th, 2011, 05:55 PM
Unity doesn't bother me. I like it. (Well, I missed the bottom panel enough to install tint2.) I am going to have a problem with my netbook when 10.04 is no longer supported . . . because Ubuntu past 10.04 will run on that machine. However, Lubuntu will run on it, so when the next LTS comes out, perhaps I won't have to go far.

cariboo
November 27th, 2011, 06:47 AM
Unity doesn't bother me. I like it. (Well, I missed the bottom panel enough to install tint2.) I am going to have a problem with my netbook when 10.04 is no longer supported . . . because Ubuntu past 10.04 will run on that machine. However, Lubuntu will run on it, so when the next LTS comes out, perhaps I won't have to go far.

Lubuntu probably won't have an LTS release until at least 14.04, as it won't be finalized for the 12.04 release. They could really use some extra help, as there is only one developer that is doing at least 75% of the work.