Ubuntu sort arrows - when will they fix this??

[CaptSaltyJack]

Ubuntu is the only platform/OS that has their ascending/descending sort arrows the way they do. It makes no sense. Do they ever plan on fixing this? I know there is probably no official standard on this, but everywhere I've seen EXCEPT Ubuntu (or Gnome), up arrow means it's being sorted in ascending order, and down arrow means descending order.

[dcstar]

Ubuntu is the only platform/OS that has their ascending/descending sort arrows the way they do. It makes no sense. Do they ever plan on fixing this? I know there is probably no official standard on this, but everywhere I've seen EXCEPT Ubuntu (or Gnome), up arrow means it's being sorted in ascending order, and down arrow means descending order.

Who is "they"? If you have a problem with part of a Linux distribution then use the existing bug report system to notify the developers.

Just complaining in a user forum does absolutely nothing.

[CaptSaltyJack]

Maybe I wanted to discuss it first. Hence my post. On a (wait for it).. discussion forum.

[WorMzy]

I'm not sure what you mean.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2674/thunar.jpg

The arrow is pointing down, and the filenames are descending from A to Z. What is the problem?

[CaptSaltyJack]

A to Z would be ascending order, not descending. That's the problem.

[CaptSaltyJack]

I suppose some evidence would be useful:

http://plan-b-for-openoffice.org/glossary/term/ascending-order

Plus, Google around a bit and you'll see this is the standard.

[coffeecat]

Maybe I wanted to discuss it first. Hence my post. On a (wait for it).. discussion forum.

You posted in (wait for it :wink:) General Help


General Help
All your general support questions for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Xubuntu.

Therefore - moved to The Community Cafe.

[CaptSaltyJack]

Fair enough, coffeecat, fair enough. :)

[WorMzy]

A to Z would be ascending order, not descending. That's the problem.

Really? Well that's my face red. :oops:

[SavageWolf]

Down arrow meaning A-Z would make more sense, logically... As you follow the direction of the arrow, you go further on in the sequence...

[red_Marvin]

I've always thought the arrows were stupid, no matter os, because
in the v arrow would signify a normal top to bottom sorting of
the list, which would mean different things for what could be
seen as the 'default' way of ordering things...

E.g. the down arrow:

letters, if we want to traverse the alphabet in 'normal' order: ascending
letters, if we want to traverse the alphabet as data: descending
other data, depending on the data but usually; descending


That is not to say that I have a better idea, a content aware [a..z] icon
would be nice but that would need to be localized, as well as there is some
ambiguity regarding how x and X will be sorted...

[Ozor Mox]

Down arrow meaning A-Z would make more sense, logically... As you follow the direction of the arrow, you go further on in the sequence...

This is what I've always thought, that the down arrow for ascending makes more sense because that's the order it "points" in the column.

[CaptSaltyJack]

Perhaps. I think of it as up arrow = ascending, down arrow = descending. And my point is that this is how most other applications and OSs do it. It's pretty universal, except for in Linux land. One key aspect of usability is making interfaces based on what people already know, so they can jump right in. I was thrown off when I first started using Ubuntu because of the arrow direction. I strongly feel this is something that should be changed, so it's probably about time I open a ticket for it. :)

[Ozor Mox]

Perhaps. I think of it as up arrow = ascending, down arrow = descending. And my point is that this is how most other applications and OSs do it. It's pretty universal, except for in Linux land. One key aspect of usability is making interfaces based on what people already know, so they can jump right in. I was thrown off when I first started using Ubuntu because of the arrow direction. I strongly feel this is something that should be changed, so it's probably about time I open a ticket for it. :)

Yeah when you put it that way it makes sense too. I guess it's just easier if everyone sticks to the same thing, but which way is going to win? ... FIGHT!

[ugm6hr]

I guess it's just easier if everyone sticks to the same thing

That's never going to be an acceptable argument for any open-source developer... Unfortunate perhaps in other circumstances, but in this case I think Ubuntu is actually the more intuitive.

[CaptSaltyJack]

I'll make a case for it. If Ubuntu has any kind of user experience team, they'll have to see that it's important to keep things consistent and familiar for people.

[Ozor Mox]

That's never going to be an acceptable argument for any open-source developer... Unfortunate perhaps in other circumstances, but in this case I think Ubuntu is actually the more intuitive.

I don't know, just because something is open source doesn't mean it has to be devoid of standards. There's the Gnome interface guidelines, freedesktop.org, web standards, POSIX... Admittedly I'm not an expert in any of these but I'm pretty sure some of them emerged from open source technology, or at the very least is adhered to by open source projects.

[mali2297]

I don't know, just because something is open source doesn't mean it has to be devoid of standards. There's the Gnome interface guidelines, freedesktop.org, web standards, POSIX... Admittedly I'm not an expert in any of these but I'm pretty sure some of them emerged from open source technology, or at the very least is adhered to by open source projects.

Speaking of the GNOME interface guidelines...
http://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/stable/controls-lists.html.en#controls-lists-sortable

Also, there is already a bug filed:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=305277

[ssam]

I agree, gnome/ubuntu get this wrong.

∇ has the big end on top, so should be big numbers or letters on top

Δ has the small end on top, so should have small number or letter on top

just like with less than and greater than in maths. (1<2, a<z)

[earthpigg]

I wonder if there was any philosophical basis for the current GNOME choice.

They don't use 'ascending/descending', but 'natural/reverse'.

http://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/stable/controls-lists.html.en#controls-lists-sortable


Sort Order Arrow Direction Example
Natural Down Alphabetical; smallest number first; earliest date first; checked items first
Reverse Up Reverse alphabetical; largest number first; most recent date first; unchecked items first)

Upward triangles, sometimes represented in modified form as upward-pointed chevrons on ranks of aggressive uniformed forces, are associated with masculinity, paternalism, aggressiveness, etc.

Downward triangles are associated with offering comfort and things maternal and nurturing. (the chalice, the receiver, etc)

Which is more "natural", the aggressive or the comforting?

If this late 1990s discussion was philosophical in nature and comprised of nerds over-thinking things (as I am now), then it would be entirely appropriate for idealistic open source developers to have chosen the downward triangle of comfort and nurturing to be the 'natural' state of order in response to the offerings of proprietary outfits having already chosen the conquering & aggressive upward phallic triangle to be their 'natural' state of order.

[vehemoth]

I like earthpigg's logic the best, anyway this is the first time I've heard of people that look at the arrow. Everybody I know looks at the order of the files and if it's going the wrong just hit the button.

[F.G.]

I wonder if there was any philosophical basis for the current GNOME choice.

They don't use 'ascending/descending', but 'natural/reverse'.

http://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/stable/controls-lists.html.en#controls-lists-sortable


Sort Order Arrow Direction Example
Natural Down Alphabetical; smallest number first; earliest date first; checked items first
Reverse Up Reverse alphabetical; largest number first; most recent date first; unchecked items first)

Upward triangles, sometimes represented in modified form as upward-pointed chevrons on ranks of aggressive uniformed forces, are associated with masculinity, paternalism, aggressiveness, etc.

Downward triangles are associated with offering comfort and things maternal and nurturing. (the chalice, the receiver, etc)

Which is more "natural", the aggressive or the comforting?

If this late 1990s discussion was philosophical in nature and comprised of nerds over-thinking things (as I am now), then it would be entirely appropriate for idealistic open source developers to have chosen the downward triangle of comfort and nurturing to be the 'natural' state of order in response to the offerings of proprietary outfits having already chosen the conquering & aggressive upward phallic triangle to be their 'natural' state of order.
don't sergeant's stripes point down (otherwise i agree)? also why do A-Z ascend (except on the ascii table) I would generally accept thing closer to A as having higher priority.

[CaptSaltyJack]

I would generally accept thing closer to A as having higher priority.

It's not about priority, but order. What comes before the letter C? B, not D.

In ascending order:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6
A B C D E F G
October 1st, October 2nd, October 3rd

Up arrow = ascent.
Down arrow = descent.

[cariboo]

@CaptSaltyJack, can you provides us with an upstream bug number? There is no sense creating a bug on Launchpad, as you'll just be asked to submit it upstream, as nautilus is a part of Gnome.

[CaptSaltyJack]

@CaptSaltyJack, can you provides us with an upstream bug number? There is no sense creating a bug on Launchpad, as you'll just be asked to submit it upstream, as nautilus is a part of Gnome.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I just went back in the thread & grabbed this link:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=305277

Looks like someone already filed a bug. Does this help?

[earthpigg]

don't sergeant's stripes point down (otherwise i agree)? also why do A-Z ascend (except on the ascii table) I would generally accept thing closer to A as having higher priority.

My Sergeant stripes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_rank_insignia#Enlisted) did not point down when I was one. :)

Some nation's Air Forces - to differentiate themselves from the Armies they often split off from - flipped their chevrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_enlisted_rank_insignia) to point down (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/OR4_RAF_Corporal.svg). Very rough generalizations that often will not hold true.

I wonder if there is a trend wherein once a nation views its armed forces as primarily for "peacekeeping", "humanitarian", and "defense of the nation only", chevrons get flipped from aggressive/up to caring/down?

[benerivo]

It's not about priority, but order. What comes before the letter C? B, not D.

In ascending order:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6
A B C D E F G
October 1st, October 2nd, October 3rd

Up arrow = ascent.
Down arrow = descent.

I see your point, but there's loads of fuzzy examples with this. If you posted your five favourite films and labelled them with numbers, i would presume that 1 was top -- but i'd be wrong.

[CaptSaltyJack]

I see your point, but there's loads of fuzzy examples with this. If you posted your five favourite films and labelled them with numbers, i would presume that 1 was top -- but i'd be wrong.

But computers are logical and have no sense of "these are my favorite things in ascending order." It has no idea what "favorite" is. It just knows orders based on values, whether they're numbers, times/dates, characters, etc.

[benerivo]

But computers are logical and have no sense of "these are my favorite things in ascending order." It has no idea what "favorite" is. It just knows orders based on values, whether they're numbers, times/dates, characters, etc.

Yes, i agree -- or at least i would do if i were a computer. I don't see any clear answer from a users point of view. Human favourites are often associated the other way round (which is why this whole order issue has occurred) Most ordered lists for people are numbered (eg. the music charts) so '1' is highest. If i want to order a list so that it is 'descending', i want to see 1 at the top.

[F.G.]

My Sergeant stripes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_rank_insignia#Enlisted) did not point down when I was one. :)

Some nation's Air Forces - to differentiate themselves from the Armies they often split off from - flipped their chevrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_enlisted_rank_insignia) to point down (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/OR4_RAF_Corporal.svg). Very rough generalizations that often will not hold true.

I wonder if there is a trend wherein once a nation views its armed forces as primarily for "peacekeeping", "humanitarian", and "defense of the nation only", chevrons get flipped from aggressive/up to caring/down?
ha, i looked it up and you're quite right, about the states, i guess in the UK they point down (does that mean we've become peacekeepers?).

CaptainSaltyJack, i disagree with you completely. i think numbering the alphabet is completely arbitrary.

[CaptSaltyJack]

CaptainSaltyJack, i disagree with you completely. i think numbering the alphabet is completely arbitrary.

I think you'd find that computers would disagree with you. Make a SQL database table and populate it with 'A' through 'Z', then do



select * from alphabet order by letter asc


And see what happens. Or heck, load up the python command line interpreter and try this:



letters = ['A', 'B', 'C']
sorted(letters)
sorted(letters, reverse=True)


Also, take a look at the ASCII table:
http://www.asciitable.com/

So you are disagreeing with me based on what evidence, exactly?

[F.G.]

sorry i though i'd already made a post disclaiming the ascii table as a sensible was to order things in a GUI.
i mean you'd have to order lower case stuff above uppercase stuff, and 'a' and 'A' would not be next to each other unless you include a toupper() transformation, in which case it would no-longer truly be in ascii order. also the ascii table is essentially arbitrary.

I'm not disagreeing with you based on any evidence, my point is that this is not a subject which need evidence, or this kind of thinking. the reason for using a GUI like nautilus rather than grep, or an SQL db is that it is designed for user comfort, issues like natural association and familiarity trump the ascii table in importance for a GUI. a user can customise their machine how they like. for me the natural association is how they are currently.

ps i should point out that i was using Windows 7 the other day and this issue did flummox me for a minute.

[CaptSaltyJack]

Ok, but even computers and ASCII tables aside, if someone asks you to sort a list of last names alphabetically, you wouldn't put them in the order of Smith, Jones, and Rogers, would you? There's a reason the alphabet song starts at A and ends in Z. It's just the natural order of it. As far as ascending vs descending order, I suppose that's open to interpretation a bit. Still the fact remains that Ubuntu/Gnome/whatever is the odd man out by using a down arrow to indicate ascending order. It goes against what people are generally familiar with.

[F.G.]

fair enough. yes, I do list things that way. although i think the real reason why it seem to make sense natively to me for them to be descending from A-Z is probably just because they go down the page (and similarly Z-A 'ascend' ie go up the page. also i'm just used to it).