Free Ubuntu computer lab rejected for Windows

[c4c]

I'm in a group that takes in computer donations (cleans 'em up, wipe hard drives, swap parts if necessary, etc.) and gives them back out for free. We install Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on them, BibleTime, Xiphos, various Christian software/files... We have given away computers to individuals (32 desktops so far) - and one organization (3 laptops). But, we had an idea about a particular org and their specific needs for a while and approached them a couple of weeks ago.

This org works with youth and the (high-school age) children don't have computers of their own at home. A couple of them had been using office computers after hours to do research for homework, etc. We thought it would be a neat to set up a 6 desktop-computer lab for them. The initial reception to the idea was overwhelmingly positive. Our only requirements were that a kid could do his homework, research on the Internet and be able to play games.

The other guys (there are three more besides myself) had pitched in and we ended up with matching hardware (All same model Dells and everything is black; CPUs, keyboards, monitors with built-in speakers, mice), a nice networked laser printer, plenty of Ethernet wire, a 16-port router... (enough ports to take care of their office too).

Took me a bit to figure out what applications would be appropriate for the youth to do their homework and work on projects, never mind what games they may like... but I think I did pretty well. I believe there is software installed for almost everything that would interest a young person, educational stuff everywhere and there are plenty of games too. We were going to set it all up Sunday after church.

An hour or so ago, I got this email (I got it earlier, but just checked it an hour or so ago):

I am sorry but we've discussed these computers and we feel that our students need to learn Windows for their school work and the workplace therefore, we must decline on your very generous offer.

Bummer. :(

[Thewhistlingwind]

I do something similar, but from a more agnostic standpoint.

So I can imagine how that feels.

That sucks, really.

[robert shearer]

I am sorry but we've discussed these computers and we feel that our students need to learn corporate monopolistic practices for their school work and the workplace therefore, we must decline on your very generous offer.

Next time make them a less generous offer and they may feel that the 'expensive specialist systems suite' you offer is most desirable but perhaps beyond their reach.

Then you can appraise them of your 'package' where you will provide the systems and software as a Corporate sponsorship ! :):) complete with training!!

(who was it said "sell the sizzle not the sausage" ??? )

[el_koraco]

An hour or so ago, I got this email (I got it earlier, but just checked it an hour or so ago):

I am sorry but we've discussed these computers and we feel that our students need to learn Windows for their school work and the workplace therefore, we must decline on your very generous offer.

Bummer. :(

Somebody probably told them that "the Linux" sucks, and you can't even play games on it.

[Blvd]

...Took me a bit to figure out what applications would be appropriate for the youth to do their homework and work on projects...

Next time try www.edubuntu.org
or a custom Ubuntu iso to expedite your work.

[Copper Bezel]

Somebody probably told them that "the Linux" sucks, and you can't even play games on it.

Which, if they're being used in a lab for educational purposes, is rather a bonus, one would think.

I love that the kids are supposed to "learn Windows," though. That's a crackup. That's first because they're most likely doing everything in a Firefox window either way in any case, and second because only using one OS ever is a lovely way to train them computer-illiterate.

Odds are, the folks with the organization only know Windows and don't want to end up with the kids knowing more than they do about the organization's own machines.

[el_koraco]

Odds are, the folks with the organization only know Windows and don't want to end up with the kids knowing more than they do about the organization's own machines.

Since the first reaction was positive and the rejection came only later, I'd guess we're dealing with an expert giving advice. Probably one who proposed to do an install of pirated XP editions for a small fee.

[Thewhistlingwind]

Since the first reaction was positive and the rejection came only later, I'd guess we're dealing with an "expert" giving advice. Probably one who proposed to do an install of pirated XP editions for a small fee.

FTFY

Suble, but fixed.

[kaldor]

I really, really wish that people would understand the difference between learning how to perform a task and learning how to memorize a program. As soon as more people realize this, I think the tech illiteracy rate will drop.

[el_koraco]

FTFY

Suble, but fixed.

Expert, "expert", I doubt it matters.
The typical Windows user, even a fanboy, wouldn't mind getting a set of free machines, no matter what system they run. So, I'm guessing it's somebody's monetary interests in play.

[sffvba[e0rt]

@OP - Awesome work you guys are doing... sad that someone would reject such a generous offer :(


404

[kef_kf]

just find an organization that is smart enough not to turn away free computers. I imagine there shouldn't be a shortage of those.

[aysiu]

Too bad they didn't read this:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

[Dry Lips]

Clearly these guys didn't know the time of their visitation. But don't take this
as a defeat. It only means that your computer lab will go elsewhere. Take a
look around and I assure you that there will be an opening somewhere! :D

[WasMeHere]

+1

[matt_symes]

Maybe it's just a case that they have nobody how knows how to administer a Linux box.

I can see their point about wanting their boxes to run Windows as it is dominant on the desktop. Maybe they expect their people to learn by rote. It is a good way to learn specific skills. 'Move the mouse here and press this button to do this.....'

That said, and asyiu highlighted, i do think it's much better to learn the principles to achieve a goal and not specific steps to achieve that same goal. Once you understand what you need to do to send an e-mail then it's not hugely different between Windows, Mac and Ubuntu.

Actually i think they are being rather disingenuous to their people. After all people chop and change their mobile phones all the time and they can be wildly different but are mastered pretty quickly.

Keep up the good work though! :popcorn: I, for one, applaud you.

[jwbrase]

Too bad they didn't read this:
Teach kids computer skills, not computer programs (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/teach-kids-computer-skills-not-computer-programs/)

Indeed. My first computer use without an adult setting everything up for me was on Windows 3.1, which taught me less of how to use XP or 7 than GNOME 2 would have. And that was at home: I don't think I even encountered a Windows desktop at school before 9th grade. Everything before that was DOS machines (I think) running some character mode menu inteface, and a few Apple II's.

[Copper Bezel]

Yeah - although sometimes I worry that it's overly optimistic to hope that students will be open to learning what they're doing instead of just how to do it, training in one particular application is the old "feed a man for a day" scenario.

It is a very cool effort. Very much in the spirit of the Ubuntu mark, too.


Expert, "expert", I doubt it matters.
The typical Windows user, even a fanboy, wouldn't mind getting a set of free machines, no matter what system they run. So, I'm guessing it's somebody's monetary interests in play.
Yeah, this is the bit I couldn't figure out, and you're right. An altruistic expert would have taken the OP's machines and installed the pirated XP OSs on them, but one with a product to sell....

[wolfen69]

Take the computers back, and tell them to have a nice day. Give them to someone that can appreciate them.

[Legendary_Bibo]

That's actually messed up. I think it's the whole self entitlement attitude people have these days.

[cprofitt]

OP:

I would suggest, assuming you wish to, pointing them to the ISTE 21st Century Skills/NETP 2010 and adverting their attention to the fact that it does not specify Windows.

Links:
http://www.slideshare.net/indigo196/ed-tech-2010
http://www.slideshare.net/indigo196/ed-techday-2011
http://www.slideshare.net/indigo196/nyscate-2010-6033911

http://www.ed.gov/technology/netp-2010
http://www.p21.org/
http://www.iste.org/standards/nets-for-students.aspx

In fact limiting students to Microsoft products such as Windows, Office, etc will actually impede the students ability to deal with technology. Learning a specific brand is foolish.

[LinuxFan999]

OP:

I would suggest, assuming you wish to, pointing them to the ISTE 21st Century Skills/NETP 2010 and adverting their attention to the fact that it does not specify Windows.

Links:
http://www.slideshare.net/indigo196/ed-tech-2010
http://www.slideshare.net/indigo196/ed-techday-2011
http://www.slideshare.net/indigo196/nyscate-2010-6033911

http://www.ed.gov/technology/netp-2010
http://www.p21.org/
http://www.iste.org/standards/nets-for-students.aspx

In fact limiting students to Microsoft products such as Windows, Office, etc will actually impede the students ability to deal with technology. Learning a specific brand is foolish.
I agree with your post.

[SavageWolf]

To be honest, if they think that Windows is THAT important, they'd probably be the kind of people to phone you up and complain that their computers aren't working due to not being plugged in, or something.

[Dr. C]

Since the first reaction was positive and the rejection came only later, I'd guess we're dealing with an expert giving advice. Probably one who proposed to do an install of pirated XP editions for a small fee.

If this is indeed the case then here is a useful link: http://www.bsa.org/. I would take the computers back and find another worthy cause to donate them to. As for the org if there is even a hint of software piracy at the location I would give the BSA a call.

[cgroza]

They did not refuse your help, they refused the right of those children to have a computer to do their homework on.

I don't get the logic, don't accept the computers just to prevent the kids from learning an OS other than Windows?

[johnnybgoode83]

In fact limiting students to Microsoft products such as Windows, Office, etc will actually impede the students ability to deal with technology. Learning a specific brand is foolish.

I could not agree more. I have seen people who become very proficient with a certain program but if you try to get them to use something different for whatever reason they really struggle even if it is just an upgraded version of that program.

My experience of upgrading Office 03 to 07 for example has been an absolute torture.

[hsweet]

Their student's loss, somebody else's gain. They are just too Stooopid (or thing they are) to deal with something new. Keep up the good work

[b2zeldafreak]

If this is indeed the case then here is a useful link: http://www.bsa.org/. I would take the computers back and find another worthy cause to donate them to. As for the org if there is even a hint of software piracy at the location I would give the BSA a call.

Lol I thought that this was the Boy Scouts of America xP

[Calerid]

I guess that means they are suppose to be the opposite of intelligent? People who have the ability to learn multiple OS's and use them efficiently seem to have more intelligence... than those who um? need help with .exe installers....

[RJARRRPCGP]

I am sorry but we've discussed these computers and we feel that our students need to learn Windows for their school work and the workplace therefore, we must decline on your very generous offer.



That would be a typical response in 2005. :rolleyes:

[user333]

Don't give up on trying to help people in this way ;) Some people are under the impression that Ubuntu is inferior, but if only they knew how much they depended on it every day...

[BlacqWolf]

Well, I really don't think there is that good of a reason to reject it for Windows at all. Yes, the students may be more familiar with it, but learning multiple OSes makes it easier for the student to do things because he or she may start to be able to use what's on the screen to find out how to do things instead of panicking because they can't find where they do these absolutely specific things like I see a lot with computer illiterates who only learn specific steps to use specific OSes and apps.

Essentially, I agree with the stuff about how learning multiple OSes helps teach computer skills.

And if they actually thought for some reason the kids needed to use Windows, Linux would still be a better choice in most cases, in my opinion. It can be customized to look and behave any way you want it to.

But I say you should keep looking. I'm sure there's someone out there who would appreciate free computers that come with Ubuntu. :D

[drawkcab]

Send them a bill demonstrating how much it would cost to legally install and equip 6 windows computers with equivalent software. Also send them a video of windows 8s metro interface because it's not like learning windows xp is going to help you navigate future windows releases anyway.

[thatguruguy]

I'm in a group that takes in computer donations (cleans 'em up, wipe hard drives, swap parts if necessary, etc.) and gives them back out for free. We install Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on them, BibleTime, Xiphos, various Christian software/files...

I'd guess that this is the real reason behind rejecting your gift.

[ki4jgt]

i really, really wish that people would understand the difference between learning how to perform a task and learning how to memorize a program. As soon as more people realize this, i think the tech illiteracy rate will drop.

+10

[lisati]

Don't give up on trying to help people in this way ;) Some people are under the impression that Ubuntu is inferior, but if only they knew how much they depended on it every day...

Sometimes people just don't know any better. Some of my colleagues at work seem to be under the impression that Microsoft = Microsoft Windows = Microsoft Office, but trying to explain the difference is another story that's largely irrelevant: all they want to do is get on with their work without fussing too much about the technical details.

[3Miro]

I'd guess that this is the real reason behind rejecting your gift.

I was thinking about this, but I think if that was the problem, then they would have said that ... or maybe not.

I am not sure if simply having the software installed can cause problems, it's not like they would be teaching it.

[thatguruguy]

I was thinking about this, but I think if that was the problem, then they would have said that ... or maybe not.

... and incur the wrath of the religious right? No way, no how.


I am not sure if simply having the software installed can cause problems, it's not like they would be teaching it.

... and incur the wrath of the liberal left? No way, no how.

[Thewhistlingwind]

I'd guess that this is the real reason behind rejecting your gift.

I get the impression the lab was rejected before they even got an 'installed programs' list.

And even then, they could have always asked for them to be removed. In no way is that a deal-breaker.

Unless they want to make it one that is. ;)

[3Miro]

thatguruguy has a good point, but so does Thewhistlingwind. I guess the OP doesn't say whether or not the school officials had a chance to inspect the machines first.

[thatguruguy]

I get the impression the lab was rejected before they even got an 'installed programs' list.

And even then, they could have always asked for them to be removed. In no way is that a deal-breaker.

Unless they want to make it one that is. :wink:
Look at it this way. Assuming this was some kind of public institution (PARTICULARLY if it's a public school), they were in a no-win situation.

They would get hammered from the left for violation of the separation of church and state if they presented these kids with the computers with a bunch of Christian-oriented software on it. At the same time, they don't want to just say, "Hey, we can't take this because of the Christian stuff" or even "Could you give us the computers, but take the Christian stuff off of them?" because they don't want to alienate these guys or any other benefactors, or the religious right.

Seriously, they had to find a way to reject the gift, without rejecting the giver.

As stated by the OP,

Our only requirements were that a kid could do his homework, research on the Internet and be able to play games.

... but what they actually gave the organization was something else than that. They gave them religious materials on top of what was actually asked for.

Of course, I may be wrong. But this seems more likely than a rejection based on the OS.

[Thewhistlingwind]

Look at it this way. Assuming this was some kind of public institution (PARTICULARLY if it's a public school), they were in a no-win situation.

[RealTalk]

Of course, I may be wrong. But this seems more likely than a rejection based on the OS.

Well, the project I work on is ran from a school. When we tried to use Linux on the school computers, the admins told us it wasn't going to happen because:

1) This is washington state. Were in Microsoft's direct line of fire. They didn't want to risk a political scene.

2) The government mandated protection software (Read: Bloatware) doesn't work on Linux systems. The mandate calls for a three layer approach which includes the client.

3) The rest of the school infrastructure is on Windows, there used to be a problem with teachers using Mac and Admins using IBM, they don't want a repeat on a school wide basis.

4) Sunk costs with Windows.

I'd guess numbers two and three myself.

[ki4jgt]

I'm in a group that takes in computer donations (cleans 'em up, wipe hard drives, swap parts if necessary, etc.) and gives them back out for free. We install Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on them, BibleTime, Xiphos, various Christian software/files... We have given away computers to individuals (32 desktops so far) - and one organization (3 laptops). But, we had an idea about a particular org and their specific needs for a while and approached them a couple of weeks ago.

This org works with youth and the (high-school age) children don't have computers of their own at home. A couple of them had been using office computers after hours to do research for homework, etc. We thought it would be a neat to set up a 6 desktop-computer lab for them. The initial reception to the idea was overwhelmingly positive. Our only requirements were that a kid could do his homework, research on the Internet and be able to play games.

The other guys (there are three more besides myself) had pitched in and we ended up with matching hardware (All same model Dells and everything is black; CPUs, keyboards, monitors with built-in speakers, mice), a nice networked laser printer, plenty of Ethernet wire, a 16-port router... (enough ports to take care of their office too).

Took me a bit to figure out what applications would be appropriate for the youth to do their homework and work on projects, never mind what games they may like... but I think I did pretty well. I believe there is software installed for almost everything that would interest a young person, educational stuff everywhere and there are plenty of games too. We were going to set it all up Sunday after church.

An hour or so ago, I got this email (I got it earlier, but just checked it an hour or so ago):

I am sorry but we've discussed these computers and we feel that our students need to learn Windows for their school work and the workplace therefore, we must decline on your very generous offer.

Bummer. :(

If you really want to get Linux into the hands of these students. . .

Call them and ask them if you could hold a meeting with them to discuss it (You can't convince that it's anything else LOL).

In the meeting, start by telling them the uses of Linux throughout history. cellphones, modems, WEBSERVERS. Be sure to outline the benefits of working with Linux.

Cutting edge technology (why else would most cellphones use it)
Innovation (it's open sourced anyone can contribute)
speed of development (In my four short years since HS, Linux has come to incorporate all major devices on the market.)
Lastly, tell them about endorsements by major companies. Ubuntu used to be distributed with a few fliers about this. Tell them how Dell preinstalls (Ubuntu) Linux on certain models it carries.
Tell them how it comes with access to most computer programming languages preinstalled (or has easy access to them)
Show them a demo from the Ubuntu website (email sign in required)

Tell them (instead of giving them an entire lab of Linux computers) you want to give them (just) one. You feel that Linux provides innovative technologies and support for it is FREELY available from many sites online. (There's no need to pay for tech support) show them Ubuntuforums. Then tell them, after a month of the feature that Linux provides, if they're still not interested, you'll take the (one) computer back. Because if they're unwilling to use a system which is coming to the market at such a fast pace (all the devices which support it) then they are merely robbing their students the right to learn about it (thus, restricting their education) and you would like to give someone else who could possibly use it (for future practice) the chance to do so.

[Hated On Mostly]

I'm in a group that takes in computer donations (cleans 'em up, wipe hard drives, swap parts if necessary, etc.) and gives them back out for free. We install Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on them, BibleTime, Xiphos, various Christian software/files...

They should have rejected those computers. You do realize Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and others go to school as well don't you? Proselytize/brainwash somewhere else. Your "gift" has strings attached to it. They made the right decision.

[ki4jgt]

They should have rejected those computers. You do realize Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and others go to school as well don't you? Proselytize/brainwash somewhere else. Your "gift" has strings attached to it. They made the right decision.

Yeah, but you're assuming it's a public school here. If it's religious then there's no problem with it. I'm Agnostic and I realize that in a Christian school, Christians are entitled to have a computer which reinforces their own beliefs.

EDIT: Not to mention, the schools were fine with them until they heard they were Linux. I'm assuming OP informed school that the computers would be religious???

[Thewhistlingwind]

EDIT: Not to mention, the schools were fine with them until they heard they were Linux. I'm assuming OP informed school that the computers would be religious???

They would have needed a reason that wasn't "It's attached to Christianity" to reject them.

I would in fact agree that those programs likely aren't wise to have on computers being shipped to any public organization.

But then again, I'm atheist. So there's an obvious bias there.

[ki4jgt]

They would have needed a reason that wasn't "It's attached to Christianity" to reject them.

I would in fact agree that those programs likely aren't wise to have on computers being shipped to any public organization.

But then again, I'm atheist. So there's an obvious bias there.

Public yes, that's not bias. That's right to express one's beliefs freely. But the OP hasn't said whether the org was pub or pri. (at least what I've read of the thread.) I could see if the Bible was installed on something like fbreader (along with other classic books) as the bible is classic literature. But to have an entire program dedicated to it would be over kill for a public organization and the organization should have the rights to refuse them. However, in a religious school (Like several of the previous churches I attended setup) a bible program is considered part of study. So it would depend on which type of organization the OP was speaking about. I know two Atheists who go to Christian schools because they say it's more structured but a Biblical computer program kind of comes with the territory if you're willing to walk into a building dedicated to that cause. That's all I was saying. The OP has not made it clear as to which type organization they offered the service to.

[Hated On Mostly]

Yeah, but you're assuming it's a public school here. If it's religious then there's no problem with it. I'm Agnostic and I realize that in a Christian school, Christians are entitled to have a computer which reinforces their own beliefs.

It is a bad idea even if the school or organization is Christian. For example, I can assure you that any one of the various Methodist churches is not going to want generic bible study material or material that may have a christian leaning they don't agree with such as Adventist, Anabaptist, Anglican, Baptist, Quaker, Roman Catholic, Mormon, etc. They don't want material that has the leanings of other Methodist churches let alone the other denominations of Christianity. Ask a Baptist-based school if they want a Lutheran-leaning bible study guide and let me know the answer...

I doubt you will find too many christian denominations running schools that are comfortable with generic religious material. Installing non-requested and non-approved random christian/bible stuff on a computer destined for a christian school is a bad idea period. If the school is not christian and is in fact public, it's an even worse idea. The original poster should be a "fisher of men" somewhere other than schools.

[Copper Bezel]

This org works with youth and the (high-school age) children don't have computers of their own at home.
I assumed this was code for "church youth group." Looking over the post, I'm still reading it that way. He never says it's a "school."

[Thewhistlingwind]

It is a bad idea even if the school or organization is Christian.

[Serious Realtalk follows]

Well, you've convinced me at any rate.

[Copper Bezel]

Plenty of nondenominational churches about, and they tend to be the more technically inclined, from what I've seen. I mean, I would assume that the software was essentially at the organization's request. (Otherwise, just how many ideologies was this an attempt to push? Both Christianity and FOSS? = D)

[ubudog]

"Discussions on religion and politics are not allowed, except for politics directly related to free and open source issues."

Thread closed.