Amazon announced Kindle Touch and Kindle Fire

[zekopeko]

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/09/amazon-to-unveil-199-70inch-kindle-fire-tablet.ars?comments=1#comments-bar

The Kindle Fire looks interesting. The screen appears to be very high quality with good pixel density. The interface is also interesting.

[Jesus_Valdez]

May seems superficial, but the no camera thing is a let down for me, at least one front face camera would be nice.

[KiwiNZ]

Bang for buck the Kindle Fire is not bad but it is not up with the iPad or Galaxy.

[conundrumx]

Bang for buck the Kindle Fire is not bad but it is not up with the iPad or Galaxy.

It's really not trying to be. Those are all around devices, this seems pretty specifically built for consuming media from Amazon. Analysts are saying Amazon is selling these at a loss, and they're not using stock Android.

The whole point is just to make their content more accessible so you spend more money. Not a bad system to work on (ask Apple), but selling the hardware at a loss is risky.

[Paqman]

Bang for buck the Kindle Fire is not bad but it is not up with the iPad or Galaxy.

How do you know? You're going on some pretty scanty information there.

[forrestcupp]

No camera, no GPS, no 10" version, only 8GB storage, and no memory expansion. No thanks!

The only two reasons they are saying this can be an iPad killer is because of price and brand name. I don't give a rat's backside about brand name, and I'm not going to waste $199 on something that only has 8GB with no microSD slot.

[KiwiNZ]

How do you know? You're going on some pretty scanty information there.

http://www.cultofmac.com/116117/amazon-kindle-fire-vs-ipad-2-%e2%80%94%c2%a0an-in-depth-comparison/

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/28/amazon-fire-tablet-unveiled-7-inch-display-199-price-tag/

http://www.neowin.net/news/amazon-unveils-200-android-powered-kindle-fire

[forrestcupp]

I wonder how long it will be before Apple has a lawsuit against them because of the Kindle Touch.

[red_Marvin]

Bang for buck the Kindle Fire is not bad but it is not up with the iPad or Galaxy.

At $100 less than half of the cost of the cheapest ipad 2 I think it is wrong to expect it to compete
with the ipad 2. I do not currently know the price of a Galaxy (it must be astronomic :y hee hee).

[Paqman]

http://www.cultofmac.com/116117/amazon-kindle-fire-vs-ipad-2-%e2%80%94%c2%a0an-in-depth-comparison/

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/28/amazon-fire-tablet-unveiled-7-inch-display-199-price-tag/

http://www.neowin.net/news/amazon-unveils-200-android-powered-kindle-fire

None of which seems to have been written by anybody that's actually used one. Bunch of journos shooting from the hip.

[KiwiNZ]

None of which seems to have been written by anybody that's actually used one. Bunch of journos shooting from the hip.

Journalists have not been to the Moon but write about it well. With respect your argument is at best flawed, at worse well I wont say.

[Paqman]

Journalists have not been to the Moon but write about it well. With respect your argument is at best flawed, at worse well I wont say.

My argument is purely that slating devices you've never tried based on the opinions of others who've also not tried them is flaky.

I'm reminded of all those folks who read about a potential change in a future version of Ubuntu (Unity, LightDM, Wayland, etc) on OMG!Ubuntu! and rush into the forum shouting "I'm going to HATE it!". And how seriously do you take those folks? ;)

[KiwiNZ]

My argument is purely that slating devices you've never tried based on the opinions of others who've also not tried them is flaky.

I'm reminded of all those folks who read about a potential change in a future version of Ubuntu (Unity, LightDM, Wayland, etc) on OMG!Ubuntu! and rush into the forum shouting "I'm going to HATE it!". And how seriously do you take those folks? ;)

You do realize that Journalists like others involved in the Tech Industry often get to try these things before release.;)

[mamamia88]

Kind of tempting but I will be sticking with my kindle 3. I want a kindle sized tablet but I would really like it to have expandable storage because my primary use would be watching video. And honestly who cares if it isn't as powerful as the ipad? What are you really going to do on a tablet that requires a lot of processing power? And the best tablet for me would be the one I bother to take with me. I don't want an ipad becasue I would never bother bringing it with me because, I would need to carry a bag. And the size of the kindle is perfect for me. I can throw it in a size pocket of cargo shorts during summer and in the pocket of a hoodie during the fall and winter months. So guess I will keep waiting for perfect tablet. Galaxy tab 7" looks tempting but still too much in my opinion.

[LowSky]

No camera, no GPS, no 10" version, only 8GB storage, and no memory expansion. No thanks!

The only two reasons they are saying this can be an iPad killer is because of price and brand name. I don't give a rat's backside about brand name, and I'm not going to waste $199 on something that only has 8GB with no microSD slot.

I have never used the camera on my tablet, GPS would be nice, but a device over 4" is too bulky to really use in a car and without a wireless signal GPS is not so grand, unless you buy one of those overpriced apps. 10" is kinda heavy especially for reading as I found out. And 8GB of storage ain't bad. With Amazon's free cloud service you get more than enough space. For $199 I get access to a webstore that isn't so restrictive as Apple's, and works great with my Linux PC too.

If I had $199 I would buy this in a heartbeat.

Sure I wish it had HDMI out, and a SD card slot of some sort, but I can live without.

[PhillyPhil]

I wonder if Apple will sue them for the Fire having a constant width black border with rounded corners around the screen?

[forrestcupp]

My argument is purely that slating devices you've never tried based on the opinions of others who've also not tried them is flaky.
True to an extent. But we do have the specs, and the specs show that the Fire isn't anywhere close to being on par with the Galaxy Tab or iPad. I don't need first hand experience to see that.

[Dr. C]

If there was a way to install Ubuntu on it I would interested at that price.

[KiwiNZ]

If there was a way to install Ubuntu on it I would interested at that price.


Why?

[Dr. C]

Why?

It is really very simple. If I buy a paper book and take it home, the bookseller cannot change its mind, break into my home, take said book and and any notes I made have made and leave me what I paid for it on the bookcase. To prevent this kind of break in or any other kind of break in for that matter I have a lock on my door and other security measures.

With an ebook I need to do the same thing and lock the tablet down to prevent the bookseller from changing change its mind, breaking into my tablet, taking said book and any notes I made have made and leaving me what I paid for it, as Amazon actually did with George Orwell's 1984 back in 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html. The stock OS will very likely give the bookseller in this case Amazon a "master key". With Ubuntu on the other hand I control the master key and any other keys so I can lock the tablet down to prevent these kinds of break ins.

[KiwiNZ]

It is really very simple. If I buy a paper book and take it home, the bookseller cannot change its mind, break into my home, take said book and and any notes I made have made and leave me what I paid for it on the bookcase. To prevent this kind of break in or any other kind of break in for that matter I have a lock on my door and other security measures.

With an ebook I need to do the same thing and lock the tablet down to prevent the bookseller from changing change its mind, breaking into my tablet, taking said book and any notes I made have made and leaving me what I paid for it, as Amazon actually did with George Orwell's 1984 back in 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html. The stock OS will very likely give the bookseller in this case Amazon a "master key". With Ubuntu on the other hand I control the master key and any other keys so I can lock the tablet down to prevent these kinds of break ins.

If you are that concerned you should not have any e.devices. Just buy hard copy books from bricks and mortar stores. Ubuntu maybe many things to many folks but a Tablet OS it is not.

[galacticaboy]

I would love to have one. It would be an ultra cheap Android tablet. But... can it be rooted? If it cannot, I will take a Nook and root that... all the same.

[Dr. C]

I would love to have one. It would be an ultra cheap Android tablet. But... can it be rooted? If it cannot, I will take a Nook and root that... all the same.

I agree. How easy it is to root is a critical question for me when deciding whether to purchase one or not.

[Paqman]

as Amazon actually did with George Orwell's 1984 back in 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html.

Amazon didn't "change their mind". The seller that sold those books to people was doing so illegally. Amazon had to recover them or else they would have been complicit in that crime.

And yes, if you buy a stolen book from some dodgy geezer down the pub the police do have the right to come to your house and seize it.

[red_Marvin]

And yes, if you buy a stolen book from some dodgy geezer down the pub the police do have the right to come to your house and seize it.

The distinction is that it is the police that has the right to come to your house and seize it.

[Dr. C]

The distinction is that it is the police that has the right to come to your house and seize it.

There is also the question of the research notes on the book that were made in good faith by the purchaser that were also deleted. Amazon got of very easy on that one.

The key difference is with a paper book the bookseller has to go through the proper legal channels courts, police etc., and this ensures that the rights of the purchaser are also protected.

[forrestcupp]

It is really very simple. If I buy a paper book and take it home, the bookseller cannot change its mind, break into my home, take said book and and any notes I made have made and leave me what I paid for it on the bookcase. To prevent this kind of break in or any other kind of break in for that matter I have a lock on my door and other security measures.

With an ebook I need to do the same thing and lock the tablet down to prevent the bookseller from changing change its mind, breaking into my tablet, taking said book and any notes I made have made and leaving me what I paid for it, as Amazon actually did with George Orwell's 1984 back in 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html. The stock OS will very likely give the bookseller in this case Amazon a "master key". With Ubuntu on the other hand I control the master key and any other keys so I can lock the tablet down to prevent these kinds of break ins.

So how is Ubuntu going to help with ebooks? If you figure out how to read kindle books in Ubuntu, they can do the same thing even though you're viewing them in a Kindle app in Ubuntu. If you use another ereader or form of ebooks, Ubuntu still doesn't matter because you can do the same thing in Android. If you're not going to use it for ebooks at all, then why does it matter?

[markp1989]

Does look pretty good, especially at that price.

I already have a transformer 16Gb and hp touchpad 32Gb.


dual core 1Ghz, 512mb memory good spec for the price, 8gb of storage isn't really an issue for me, on my tablets I very rarely store many things local, I use them mostly for web based tasks, research,messaging, reading, note taking etc, I play a bit of music on the transformer, but I don't really need to carry my full music collection with me I already have an iPod for that. It would have been nice of the added an SD/MicroSD card slot so people can add storage if they want.


I very rarely use the camera on either of them, I don't think a tablet really works for taking photos, a front facing camera for skype would be useful for a lot of users.

I'm still waiting for a UK price, as I'm guessing it will be more than what it is in the US.

I am gonna be pretty sceptical until I see what changes Amazon have made to Android, as they could make or break the user experience.

[forrestcupp]

My main problem is the 8GB limit and the 7" screen. I could do without a camera and GPS. GPS wouldn't do any good anyway with only WIFI.

I know they're going to come out with a 10" version at the beginning of the year, or possibly even by Christmas. But judging by the price difference between the 6" Kindle and the 10" one, I seriously doubt if the 10" Fire will be a low enough price to compete with full featured tablets, like the Transformer.

The 6" Kindle is $109, while the 9.7" Kindle is $379. So how are they going to be able to compete pricewise with a full featured 10" tablet?

[Dr. C]

So how is Ubuntu going to help with ebooks? If you figure out how to read kindle books in Ubuntu, they can do the same thing even though you're viewing them in a Kindle app in Ubuntu. If you use another ereader or form of ebooks, Ubuntu still doesn't matter because you can do the same thing in Android. If you're not going to use it for ebooks at all, then why does it matter?

One avoids ebooks that are infected with DRM and uses quality FLOSS such as Calibre to read them. There are many sources for both paid and free (as in beer) quality, DRM free, ebooks.

If one installs an official Kindle app in Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, Ubuntu under Wine or Android, the DRM in the Kindle app creates a security hole in the OS if it allows Amazon to delete one or more files on that computer or device. I would not install such a DRM laden security nightmare in any OS, FLOSS or propriety for obvious security reasons.

[Copper Bezel]

Kindle's also a Chrome app. No Wine involved now.

Presumably, yes, if something was removed from my account (which they're supposedly not doing anymore, by the way) and I clicked the little "update" icon, it would be removed from local storage as well. The Kindle device would likely sync automatically on startup or something, too. It's not a "security vulnerability," because the files being added, updated, or deleted are only the ones tied to the service. It's no different from, say, Tomboy Notes syncing over U1. They're also not the sort of files one gets to "manage" otherwise - they're cryptically named files in a special folder and a proprietary format, useless without the Kindle app.

If you put a .pdf on your Kindle, there's nothing Amazon could do to see it, delete it, etc., and the Kindle does read .pdfs.

[Dr. C]

Kindle's also a Chrome app. No Wine involved now.

If you put a .pdf on your Kindle, there's nothing Amazon could do to see it, delete it, etc., and the Kindle does read .pdfs.

How do you know this?

[Copper Bezel]

Which part? The .pdf wouldn't be a part of your Kindle library, and that's the only part the service controls.

[earthpigg]

Eh. My Chinese-manufactured "7 tablet tablet runs Android and has most of this (including the kindle app and amazon app store) for $100 less.

Battery lasts twice as long on the Chinese product with the Amazon logo, but that isn't worth $100 extra. Nor is the Amazon logo on the hardware.

I'm happy with mine (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1841708).

[Paqman]

The distinction is that it is the police that has the right to come to your house and seize it.

Only because of the imperfection of the analogy. The principle is identical.

[forrestcupp]

One avoids ebooks that are infected with DRM and uses quality FLOSS such as Calibre to read them. There are many sources for both paid and free (as in beer) quality, DRM free, ebooks.

If one installs an official Kindle app in Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, Ubuntu under Wine or Android, the DRM in the Kindle app creates a security hole in the OS if it allows Amazon to delete one or more files on that computer or device. I would not install such a DRM laden security nightmare in any OS, FLOSS or propriety for obvious security reasons.

I know. Part of the point of what I said is that there are tons of ereader apps out there for Android that can read the same ebooks that you are talking about. There's no need for Ubuntu just for that when you can view the same non-DRM books in Android.

And it is true that the Kindle app can read downloaded 3rd party books that Amazon doesn't have access to. The Gutenberg Project has tons of free books that are in Kindle format. If they can do it, I'm sure there are places to buy books in Kindle format.

No matter what, you can always just use a different ereader in Android that can view anything you want. Don't forget that the Kindle Fire is an Android tablet that has the Android Market. You're not limited to the Kindle app.

[red_Marvin]

Only because of the imperfection of the analogy. The principle is identical.

I think you are wrong:
In one case the original owner can demand entrance to the buyers home to get the book back.
In the other case only a properly appointed law enforcement officer has the right to demand entry.

Yes, somebody still enters your house and takes the book, but the
question of who has the right to do so is not neglible.

In your analogy you also exchange "amazon" which "some dodgy geezer on the pub", which is, to me at least, not a straight mapping.
Amazon <-> Well known book store, represented in many countries.
Some warez site <-> some dodgy geezer on the pub
...or something like that...

[Dr. C]

I know. Part of the point of what I said is that there are tons of ereader apps out there for Android that can read the same ebooks that you are talking about. There's no need for Ubuntu just for that when you can view the same non-DRM books in Android.

And it is true that the Kindle app can read downloaded 3rd party books that Amazon doesn't have access to. The Gutenberg Project has tons of free books that are in Kindle format. If they can do it, I'm sure there are places to buy books in Kindle format.

No matter what, you can always just use a different ereader in Android that can view anything you want. Don't forget that the Kindle Fire is an Android tablet that has the Android Market. You're not limited to the Kindle app.

Yes one can replace the Android on the Kindle Fire with an Android from a trustworthy source (Amazon has already demonstrated with the 1984 fiasco they cannot be trusted with root) and do what is suggested above. I would not install the Kindle app on the new Android.

[forrestcupp]

Yes one can replace the Android on the Kindle Fire with an Android from a trustworthy source (Amazon has already demonstrated with the 1984 fiasco they cannot be trusted with root) and do what is suggested above. I would not install the Kindle app on the new Android.

If you install another ebook reader on the Kindle Fire's Android, Amazon is not going to search through your 3rd party ebooks used in a different app, and try to bust you for something. Why would they even be interested in doing that? Their interest is in covering their own butts when someone uses their Kindle ebook system in an illegal way.

If you think that Amazon is going to be keeping an eye on every single app and bit of data that everyone installs on their Fire tablet, you're a little bit too paranoid. And if you're not doing anything illegal, you don't really have any reason to be paranoid about that.

Do you think it would do any good for Amazon's public relations to be known as a company that regularly gets into people's devices and takes back books that people have purchased?

[mamamia88]

The more I think about it the more I want one. But will probably wait for second iteration that hopefully lets me expand memory. Only real problem I can forsee is if I want to store an entire season of tv shows to watch on a road trip it could run out of space quickly

[HappinessNow]

The 6" Kindle is $109, while the 9.7" Kindle is $379. So how are they going to be able to compete pricewise with a full featured 10" tablet?
I was curious where you got your pricing from?

when I go to the Amazon website these are the prices I am seeing:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wUXLZ_POgUI/TogZ_HN6lVI/AAAAAAAAMm8/2l4VZ_4LOn4/s1600/kindles.png
http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Touch-e-Reader-Touch-Screen-3G-Special-Offers/dp/B005890G8O/ref=amb_link_357575542_9/178-1644641-9773064?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=gateway-center-column&pf_rd_r=1PMH22Y5QP9XY8JXF5T3&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1321696362&pf_rd_i=507846

nothing for $109 or $379

EDIT: I see the $109 is 'without special offers' on the $79 Kindle but where is the $379 from?

EDIT Again: I see $379 is for the Kindle DX

[Paqman]

In your analogy you also exchange "amazon" which "some dodgy geezer on the pub", which is, to me at least, not a straight mapping.
Amazon <-> Well known book store, represented in many countries.
Some warez site <-> some dodgy geezer on the pub
...or something like that...

No, Amazon wasn't selling the book themselves. It was another seller flogging their wares through Amazon that turned out to be selling the ebooks illegally. So you can see why Amazon had a responsibility to act.

To be clear: the "dodgy geezer down the pub" in this case was a publisher called MobileReference (http://www.mobilereference.com). Which, as you can tell from their site, doesn't seem to be the most professional-looking outfit in the book trade.

[red_Marvin]

No, Amazon wasn't selling the book themselves. It was another seller flogging their wares through Amazon that turned out to be selling the ebooks illegally. So you can see why Amazon had a responsibility to act.

To be clear: the "dodgy geezer down the pub" in this case was a publisher called MobileReference (http://www.mobilereference.com). Which, as you can tell from their site, doesn't seem to be the most professional-looking outfit in the book trade.

In that case, my criticism of the amazon<->shady geezer was based on wrong assumptions, my bad.

But it does not change my initial argument which is that only appointed
representatives of the government should have the right to invade peoples'
homes (or "things" in this case) in order to guarantee that everything
follows protocol. (Unless someone is in danger or something.)

You seem to think that the restoration of the stolen property trumps that
rule and I think we'll just have to disagree on that point.






~ * ~

However, I don't see it as very realistic that the police should have people
on the payroll and software in order to be able to interfer with each and
every electronic device that has ever been sold.
Perhaps amazon could take care of that, but they should do that
if and only if a judge gives them that mandate.

Now, in my opinon the ideal case would be that the purchasers of the book
would be able to keep it, because they bought it fair and square.
The shady seller on the pub, so to speak, should have to pay the copyright
holders what they are owed.

The problem which can come up with physical stolen goods--that the stolen
and resold item is a family heirloom or something like that, that cannot
be replaced, making either the original holder or the final buyer have to
relinquish it in the end, should not be a problem since it is digital data
and a copyright crime. ...On that note, I think this case would make a pretty
good example of why there in law should be a difference between copyright
infringement and theft. But that is a debate for another day.

[Paqman]

Perhaps amazon could take care of that, but they should do that
if and only if a judge gives them that mandate.


Maybe so, but I suspect Amazon took legal advice before acting in this case. IANAL, but if the law is clear on a particular issue I don't see why anyone should need to get the judiciary involved before acting.


Now, in my opinon the ideal case would be that the purchasers of the book
would be able to keep it, because they bought it fair and square.
The shady seller on the pub, so to speak, should have to pay the copyright
holders what they are owed.

I believe that's exactly what Amazon said they would do in any future cases such as this. They did not enjoy all the negative press.

[forrestcupp]

EDIT: I see the $109 is 'without special offers' on the $79 Kindle but where is the $379 from?

EDIT Again: I see $379 is for the Kindle DX

Right. The DX is the newer 10" version. That's why I'm wondering what the price difference will be with a 10" Fire.

[HappinessNow]

Right. The DX is the newer 10" version. That's why I'm wondering what the price difference will be with a 10" Fire.

I am really thinking of getting the Kindle Touch 3G as a gift for my wife.

I am really impressed by the ease of reading on E-Ink, and she loves to read, it especially nice to be able to check out E-Ink library books now on the Kindles. 3G is a bonus and the price is right.

[earthpigg]

It is really very simple. If I buy a paper book and take it home, the bookseller cannot change its mind, break into my home, take said book and and any notes I made have made and leave me what I paid for it on the bookcase. To prevent this kind of break in or any other kind of break in for that matter I have a lock on my door and other security measures.

With an ebook I need to do the same thing and lock the tablet down to prevent the bookseller from changing change its mind, breaking into my tablet, taking said book and any notes I made have made and leaving me what I paid for it, as Amazon actually did with George Orwell's 1984 back in 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html. The stock OS will very likely give the bookseller in this case Amazon a "master key". With Ubuntu on the other hand I control the master key and any other keys so I can lock the tablet down to prevent these kinds of break ins.

Make the e-book purchase, don't bother downloading from seller, head over to the piratebay.org, download it, make sure you aren't seeding.

Problem solved, works on all e-book readers, no laws broken, artist compensated, everyone wins.

Here's the long-winded version of that from our friends at the EFF. (https://www.eff.org/wp/how-not-get-sued-file-sharing)

[larytet]

Short howto for 11.04 (based on http://rootkindlefire.com/kindle-fire-root/how-to-root-kindle-fire-for-mac-osx-or-linux/)

- Install Android SDK - you can pull TGZ from android.com
- Add Platform tools and Android 2.2 SDK platform - this step will add "adb" in the folder <SDK>/platform-tools
- In the file ~/.android/adb_usb.ini add two lines


0x1949
0x0006

- In the file /etc/udev/rules.d/51-android.rules (create the file if missing) add line


SUBSYSTEM==usb, SYSFS{idVendor}==1949, MODE=0666

- Connect Kindle Fire to the USB and do

sudo ./adb kill-server;sudo ./adb start-server;sudo ./adb devices

. You should get something like

List of devices attached
4B46000600000001 device

- Get the script from http://downloadandroidrom.com/file/KindleFire/root/KindleFireRootMacLinux.zip
- Execute runmelinux.sh from the folder where adb is (SDK/platform-tools/) or add adb folder to the $PATH

At this point the Kindle is rooted. Disconnect the Kindle and check if in the Application list there is "Android root". If adb does not see Kindle try command
lsusb. You should see device with vendor ID 1949

If adb sees the device you can access the the Kindle shell by simply
adb shell. Command
su -i will make you a root.

The final stage is putting applications and specifically Vending.apk (Android Market) Get it from http://www.mediafire.com/?rest29bka7mm0ck (see also http://www.pcworld.com/article/244474/how_to_install_the_android_market_on_your_kindle_f ire.html)