Anticipating New Desktop Build

[ClientAlive]

Hi,

Sometime near New Years 2012 I anticipate having around $1k to put towards a new computer build. I thought it would be nice to get some input from the folks around here. Any takers? What would you think about the following?

~ Purpose of the computer:

A small server running a cloud software service/ virtualization, and something to play with and learn.


~ General component list:

` AMD Phenom II 1090T, 6 core (possibly the 1100T - if not too much more)

` Some rock your darn sox right off your body mobo (want to go as top of the line as possible on this one, so long as it's under $200) - I'm still a little fuzzy on my mobo knowledge

` 4 x 4 GB ddr3 RAM

`An optical drive - multi drive DVD/CD everything with lightscribe (or more current/ better technology that may be available).

` Something like 3 x 3 TB 6.0 GB/s sata drives, 64 mb cache, @ 7200 rpm (or better) - or the equivalent in 2 TB drives.

` A sata 4 port hardware raid controller (w/ 1 GB cache would be nice but I think that's a fantasy at my budget)

` A 2 port graphics card with 1 GB cache for dual monitor setup.

` Some decent but cheap sound card (no need to go crazy on this one)

` Two, 20 or so inch lcd monitors (under $100 ea.)

` Pretty unclear on the wattage of a power supply I should have. I understand that I should have something that is double the wattage I will be drawing from it so that it is under a 50% load all the time. (1000 Watt??) (1200 Watt??) (800 Watt??) - This is one thing, like the mobo, that I want to get right.

` Possibly will use an older case that I already have if I can. It is a full size Gateway case from a custom computer. I think it has a full size ATX board in it now and is roughly 10 yrs old (actually has a bay for a floppy drive in it).

` Maybe, maybe a cpu cooler of some sort (heatsink and fan is standard but maybe opt for this). If I got one (though I don't really intend to overclock) I would probably look for one with <well, this one technology I looked at once. I'll have to look it up again. Gotta go for now but I come back and fill it in).


Am I missing anything? The whole, huge, daunting issue of compatibility that comes along with all the features and technologies of things these days? Compatibility with Linux = an absolute must!

Whataya all think? What specifics would you fill into a template like this?

:D

[3Miro]

What you are describing is more or less what I have. I have the Phenom II X6 3.2 Ghz, no over-clocking and the stock cooler is just fine.

I have 4 Gigabyte motherboards and I am happy with all of them. Three are micro ATX including the one with the Pehnom X6. The chipset for the phenom was AMD880, I think they have 9xx now.

I have an Nvidia GTX260, although right now you should be looking into 560.

With DVD and 5 HDD (including 2 1TB ones and an SSD), my power supply is a corsair 750W.

I have a standard ATX box, although it is almost as large as a full ATX.

[wolfen69]

Get an Nvidia video card, it's better supported than ATI.

[drawkcab]

Get an Nvidia video card, it's better supported than ATI.

Generally true except for two caveats:

1. the recent range of ati cards seem to be relatively well supported in linux

2. nvidia optimus hybrid cards are not going to be fully supported anytime soon

Regarding 2, manufacturers sometimes include a bios option to enable the discrete graphics card or, like lenovo, offer a physical switch so that you can toggle the optimus tech.

[Lucradia]

My signature has a pretty epic build too, but it fails to run Forsaken World smoothly even in Windows. Perfect World even runs better.

*sigh*

[ClientAlive]

I forgot to include a network card in my list. Ahh well.


I heard about some new bios technology that's out but can't recall what it's called.


The thing that concerns me more than anything is all the various technologies that go into some of these things (especially one's used in mother boards) - ie: "crossfire", "dual channel", sata vs. sata II vs. sata III, etc, etc, etc . . . All these technical terms that, if you don't understand what they mean, you can waste a lot of money only to end up with an expensive pile of stuff that you don't get all the features out of. Seems possible that a guy could inadvertently buy things that you don't get full use out of because either the mobo doesn't support it but the component does; or because the mobo does support it and the component doesn't.

Maybe you get a mobo that has a certain feature regarding RAM, maybe it a great performance boost too, but you don't get the right kind of RAM that has the necessary feature so chalk up one expensive loss. The mobo could have given it to you, and you spent the money for it, but you didn't get the right other component that enabled you to take advantage of the feature. Then this goes on a couple more times with some other things too - pretty soon, what do you end up with when it's all said and done? You know what I mean?

The whole idea of building a balanced system. A system where, whatever features you pay for, you are using all of them because you got all the right parts and pieces that took full advantage of every available feature. Even if it's not top of the line throwing money at it hand over fist. Even if it's just a moderate, medium level type thing - the idea of making the right choices that enable you to take full advantage of what you paid for. You know?

[ClientAlive]

There's this . . .

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128509

:-s
--------------------

Edit:



6 x SATA 6Gb/s connectors (SATA3_0~SATA3_5) support RAID 0, 1, 5, 10 and JBOD


Is that hardware RAID they're talking about? Built right into the main board?
---------------------

Edit:

And these are kinda cool . . .

http://www.crucial.com/store/mpartspecs.aspx?mtbpoid=2E13FED2A5CA7304

:D

[mips]

Pointless doing this now, by the time you are ready to buy Bulldozer will be out and prices for the older stuff would have dropped.

I would wait until you have the money and only then go down this path.

[ClientAlive]

Pointless doing this now, by the time you are ready to buy Bulldozer will be out and prices for the older stuff would have dropped.

I would wait until you have the money and only then go down this path.


Good point. I was just wondering what I could learn between now and then. That's a lot of money to spend on something. Don't really want to waste it with foolish, uninformed choices. So if it turns out I get the same system for $800 or for $700, instead of $1000 I'm none the worse off. I'll have extra money in my pocket that I didn't have to spend. It's just so difficult to find out all the compatibility and feature issues between the pieces of hardware that I thought I'd ask some experts if they can help.

:D

[wolfen69]

Read the reviews on newegg and see if any linux users have had success with whatever hardware you are buying. Probably the most important thing to make sure that is compatible is the motherboard. If that checks out, everything else should be fine.

[LowSky]

So your not building for almost 6 months?

Take that list and throw it away. New stuff is just around the corner and most of that list will be old in PC terms.

I will say this You don't need a RAID card. Most MB can do it these days. Sound cards are a waste unless your an audiophile.

Buy a new case. If its 10 years old it may not be ATX. Many PC makers used AT well into 2002, and wouldn't it be nice to have USB 2.0 or even 3.0 ports on the front of the case.

Power Supply for that setup you don't need more than 650Watts. unless you get some $400 graphics card. And if you do thats just crazy.

The machine you list can be built for well under a grand. Simple math goes like so (and stripping parts you don't really need)

Here is what I would build right now if I needed a new PC.

PII x 6 ~ $180
Motherboard ~ $100
8Gb of RAM ~ $60
2 x 2 TB drives ~ $150 (Unless you do some extensive work for a medium size company I don't see the need for so much hard drive space. That I would understand the need for so many TB of space)
Nvidia GTX 450 ~ $100 (overkill really, a $50 card can run 2 monitors easily these days)
650 Watt PSU ~ $75
Case ~ $50
DVD-RW w/Lightscribe ~ $25
Two 22" monitors ~ $250[

~ $990

[ClientAlive]

So your not building for almost 6 months?

Take that list and throw it away. New stuff is just around the corner and most of that list will be old in PC terms.

I will say this You don't need a RAID card. Most MB can do it these days. Sound cards are a waste unless your an audiophile.

Buy a new case. If its 10 years old it may not be ATX. Many PC makers used AT well into 2002, and wouldn't it be nice to have USB 2.0 or even 3.0 ports on the front of the case.

Power Supply for that setup you don't need more than 650Watts. unless you get some $400 graphics card. And if you do thats just crazy.

The machine you list can be built for well under a grand. Simple math goes like so (and stripping parts you don't really need)

Here is what I would build right now if I needed a new PC.

PII x 6 ~ $180
Motherboard ~ $100
8Gb of RAM ~ $60
2 x 2 TB drives ~ $150 (Unless you do some extensive work for a medium size company I don't see the need for so much hard drive space. That I would understand the need for so many TB of space)
Nvidia GTX 450 ~ $100 (overkill really, a $50 card can run 2 monitors easily these days)
650 Watt PSU ~ $75
Case ~ $50
DVD-RW w/Lightscribe ~ $25
Two 22" monitors ~ $250[

~ $990


More like around 3 mos from now. I don't mind having last generation's stuff. It's still great stuff; and, if the price decreases even further, that's a bonus. Any new desktop is going to be a million times better than the crap I'm working with now. :p

Thanks for the list. Good points to go off of.

I really wasn't aware they moved raid onto the mobo like that.

I would want so much hard drive space to I can run product tests and have trial users/ product testers access it as a server. That's what I'm shooting for anyhow.

Thanks again man. I sure appreciate it.

Jake

[mips]

Two things I would recommend.

Get yourself a decent PSU, Corsair or Antec 80-90% efficiency with a good warranty. PSU is the most important part of any build.

Get yourself a nice quiet & cool case, I like the looks of the Coolermaster Silencio 550. http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=6702

[BrokenKingpin]

I would recommend getting an SSD for the OS... the speed improvement is worth the cost for sure.

I also agree with going with Nvidia over ATI... they just seem to be less hassle under Linux, but this is just personal preference.

Good luck with the build.

[ClientAlive]

Two things I would recommend.

Get yourself a decent PSU, Corsair or Antec 80-90% efficiency with a good warranty. PSU is the most important part of any build.

Get yourself a nice quiet & cool case, I like the looks of the Coolermaster Silencio 550. http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=6702


Thanks. I'll definitely remember that, and the brands you mention for power supply. Seems like I've also heard of another PSU brand that's supposed to be good - was it Thermaltake?
-------------------

I spent about 5 hrs 'straight' tonight researching everything from processors to mother boards to video cards to . . . you name it. I'm considering two slightly different directions right now. One would cost me maybe 80% more than I'd planned but I could find a way to do it if I wanted I guess. This "other direction" does seem more desirable, considering what I want the machine for/ to do.

Here's my little start on that other possible direction:



AMD, Magny Cours, 6128, 8 Core CPU - Socket G34 - <Quad channel memory support> ($250)

SUPERMICRO MBD-H8SGL-F-O ATX Server Motherboard Socket G34 AMD SR5650 DDR3 1333 ($250)

2 x (4 x 4GB) ddr3 RAM @ 1333 mhZ <grand total of 32 GB> ($170)


I think for around $1800 I could put together a basic server system starting from that base.


The other option, still in that vein (going with server hardware) would go something like:



$197.99 ** AMD Opteron 4100 Series Processor 4180 (OS4180WLU6DGOWOF) <dual channel support>
http://shop.amd.com/US/_layouts/shop/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=OS4180WLU6DGOWOF&region=en-us
http://products.amd.com/en-us/OpteronCPUDetail.aspx?id=683&f1=&f2=&f3=Yes&f4=&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&f10=&f11=&


But I haven't liked the options I've seen for single CPU boards with the C32 socket. Seemed like the other components of the board were . . . err . . . just not right.


Then there's my original idea (which would represent the "other" direction):



The AMD Phenom II, X6 model 1090T
A mobo that supports the full processing power of that chip and all it's nuances and features, and that supports 16 GB of ddr3 - and fill it up with the stuff.

. . . and on from there . . .

------------------

One thing I've had a real challenging time figuring out tonight is how to have a 2 or, better yet, 3 monitor set up. I see these video cards that are for gaming but I don't need something way over the top like that. Most of my time on that machine will be spent staring at a terminal or a text editor or developer environment and maybe system monitoring tools for the server (hence the 3 monitors - one for each).

So, I'd pay for the higher end card if there were no other way, but even with them I'm awfully confused about this one little thing: Those cards all seem to have different connection ports on them. Rather than having 2 or 3 of the same kind of port; they put, like, one of each kind. Am I missing something here? Is there any advantage to hooking up 3 monitors - each with a different type of connection?

I know you can get adapters but it occurs to me that doing something like that might introduce a bottle-neck (something that just disturbs me on principle).

Doesn't someone just make a normal, cheap, 2 or 3 port graphics card?

[LowSky]

Most cards support 2 monitors right out of the gate. 3 will require two graphics cards in most cases.

[undecim]

Get an Nvidia video card, it's better supported than ATI.

That's only the case with older ATI cards.

Also, having an AMD GPU and an AMD CPU has benefits (in windows at least. idk if those features are supported with the proprietary driver in Linux).

[3Miro]

I would also recommend getting an SSD for the main OS. Things boot and run smoother. I have one 64GB SSD for the OS and regular drives for /home and storage.

The main advantage of the ATI cards is that you don't need a proprietary driver for work. If you are going to use the proprietary driver, then you might as well get Nvidia.

[ClientAlive]

I would also recommend getting an SSD for the main OS. Things boot and run smoother. I have one 64GB SSD for the OS and regular drives for /home and storage.

The main advantage of the ATI cards is that you don't need a proprietary driver for work. If you are going to use the proprietary driver, then you might as well get Nvidia.


That seems like a good idea. I looked at ssd drives last night too. For a 64 GB drive I think they start around $110.
-------------

I've been all over the place with this build. Truth is (and this was very difficult for me to come to terms with) I may want 'this' but I can really only afford 'that'. It is what it is I guess. At least for now anyway.

So I did some homework last night and I came up with what I think is a pretty darn good list for a starting point. Here's what I've got so far:



Computer Case - something like: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811815006 aprox. $30

850 Watt PSU - something like: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371024 aprox. $115

Mobo - Something Like: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131668 $95

CPU - Something Like: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103849 $170

4 x 4 GB ddr3 RAM aprox. $80

3 x 2 TB hard drives, Sata III - 6.0 GB/s, 7200 RPM (total of 6 TB = 4 TB usable under RAID 5) aprox. $300 (maybe in 3 mos. - I think they're slightly more expensive now)

Optical multi drive aprox. $25

3 x flat panel, LED monitors aprox. $300

? do I need a video card with this mobo ? I think it has 3 onboard graphics ports ? no ?

=============TOTAL $1115

Add Solid State drive (SSD) for o/s (for a 64 GB drive, price is roughly as follows) aprox. $110
=============
============NEW TOTAL $1225

* NOTES: Get a mobo that supports the 6.0 GB/s drives


I'm strongly considering going with the 3 TB drives though and in order to really do that properly I would need a mother that has the new UEFI firmaware. I'm not sure If I can find one that is in a similar price range (what I'm seeing so far is roughly double the cost).

I'm going to look into that though.

What really just grieeeeves me! Is that it seems you can't really pick and choose which parts of the mobo you want to discard or go lower end with and which you want to be higher end. They are what they are and you can't change it. I wish to goodness I could find one that was more tailored to the things that are important to me and left off the other 'fluff'. I keep hoping I'll discover some, particular mobo manufacturer. or something like that, that is geared more toward my market - toward me. Grrr . . .

Just thought I'd give an update since I think I'm starting to get my footing on this whole build thing here.

:)
---------------------

Edit:

Well I found a mobo that has the UEFI firmware, supports Sata III, and it's in a similar price range. Two things I'm not sure about though. Is this really a very good manufacturer to go wtih? For some reason, I have this impression of ASSrock that they are kinda low end across the board (in general). My other question is about the chipset. At the link below I notice they do not mention a fsb speed in the detailed specs at all. I wonder how it would compare with the performance available from the CPU?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157262&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Motherboards+-+AMD-_-ASRock-_-13157262

I also noticed that under the "Internal I/O connectors" section there is subsection with the following list. I'm not real keen on what some of those things in the list are, but it occurs to me there may be some goodies in there that I'm not aware of.



1 x IR header
1 x CIR header
1 x COM port header
1 x HDMI_SPDIF header
1 x Power LED header
CPU/Chassis/Power FAN connector
24 pin ATX power connector
8 pin 12V power connector
Front panel audio connector
1 x Dr. Debug (7-Segment Debug LED)

--------------------

Edit:

Then there's this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128514

Me likie so far!!
--------------------

Edit:

Mmmm . . . I wonder if there's a way to calculate the break even point between CPU performance and fsb speed?

[LowSky]

uh oh, someone got their feet wet...

take a step back. from your post I have gathered this might be rather new territory for you. i have been there. its fun and exciting and you think of all the magical things you will do with this computer once built.

So please take what I'm about to say as best you can, no disrespect.

You are going nuts fantasizing!! Again no disrespect. Lets be fair your thinking of mathematically choosing your processor based on performance most people don't give two poops about. Most people buy the best their dollar will afford.

Building your own machine is tailored to you. I just think you are looking for the perfect machine, and it doesn't exist. They can't, but you can get the best machine for your dollar.

Go back to what you need it for. you want to build a small server. supposedly for a client base for cloud services and general goofing around.

Sounds like fun, but you don't need $1000 or $1600 system to do any of this. Your mode of thinking says buy what ever has the most XYZ. When you might only need X and half a Y. You don't need 6 cores on a server that just stores data, Heck I got 4 cores and rarely see an app use even two of them. You don't need three 3TB hard drives, especially if you can't fill even one TB now. And you don't need a motherboard that has 6 PCIe x16 ports, be fair you had little idea a graphics card could run two screens, and now you're looking at motherboard used specifically for gaming with 3-4 graphics cards so you can run 3 or more monitors. I'm not saying to can't get a few things over the top. You do need some room for future proofing. So why not save some of that cash now, buy what you know you will use and save the rest for when it's needed. Hard drives are super easy to add later, so are graphics cards. So buy what you can use not what you want. save the rest of the cash for something else like your car's next tune up.

[ClientAlive]

uh oh, someone got their feet wet...

take a step back. from your post I have gathered this might be rather new territory for you. i have been there. its fun and exciting and you think of all the magical things you will do with this computer once built.

So please take what I'm about to say as best you can, no disrespect.

You are going nuts fantasizing!! Again no disrespect. Lets be fair your thinking of mathematically choosing your processor based on performance most people don't give two poops about. Most people buy the best their dollar will afford.

Building your own machine is tailored to you. I just think you are looking for the perfect machine, and it doesn't exist. They can't, but you can get the best machine for your dollar.

Go back to what you need it for. you want to build a small server. supposedly for a client base for cloud services and general goofing around.

Sounds like fun, but you don't need $1000 or $1600 system to do any of this. Your mode of thinking says buy what ever has the most XYZ. When you might only need X and half a Y. You don't need 6 cores on a server that just stores data, Heck I got 4 cores and rarely see an app use even two of them. You don't need three 3TB hard drives, especially if you can't fill even one TB now. And you don't need a motherboard that has 6 PCIe x16 ports, be fair you had little idea a graphics card could run two screens, and now you're looking at motherboard used specifically for gaming with 3-4 graphics cards so you can run 3 or more monitors. I'm not saying to can't get a few things over the top. You do need some room for future proofing. So why not save some of that cash now, buy what you know you will use and save the rest for when it's needed. Hard drives are super easy to add later, so are graphics cards. So buy what you can use not what you want. save the rest of the cash for something else like your car's next tune up.

Thanks for being candid with me. I need that. And thanks for giving me some perspective. The truth is, 'how much' computer I need for what I want to do with it is just a wild guess - at this stage of my understanding. Perhaps I can explain that part a little and maybe I get a little feedback to that end.

So, I had this idea about 6 mos back for an online business. After talking to some friends with more experience in technology and business I was given certain insights and ideas. Eventually, over the course of a couple mos. this original idea turned into something abstractly related yet very different. What had happened is I realized the much bigger concept that was behind my original idea. This, bigger; or, overarching concept, actually has application to my original idea (among many other applications).

So, without saying too much, what this idea involves is starting with Xen or XCP and building my product from that. It is a cloud service type concept. I have a decent amount of documentation on the specifics already.

So to get to the punch line - here's how I imagine things going once I'm about in the middle of this product development phase. Me, at the computer, laying down code or modifying existing code in relation to building up my product - while, at the same time, on the same computer, volunteer users are accessing the service, at whatever stage of development it's at, and are using it, testing it, offering bug reports, suggestions and complaints, etc. So I'd be dealing with system admin in all its implications and developing - often all at the same time.

So I suppose the way I approached how much computer I might need is to figure how many testers I could break a given quantity of storage space into (at a given amount of space per user); and what kind of system resources it would take to handle developing activities and server activities at the same time. Problem is, it's just guess.

So for example, I figured If I had, say, 4 TB of space set aside for testers I could get up to 40 tester in a trial @ 100 GB allocated to each tester. Starting with the same quantity, I could get up to 80 @ 50 GB per. Where it is a guess is I don't know if I need or even could get 80 people to test the thing, or even 40. What incentive would they have anyway? Just that this thing is cool so come check it out and spend hrs of your time to report back to me about it? And then of course, there needs to be resources available to develop too.

So, on down the line I went. Guessing 'how much' computer I might need for these various activities and to handle a certain 'unknown as of yet' load on the server and the web site. Three monitors for productivity. One for system admin (monitoring processes, server load, security and so on), one for my development environment and such, and the other for running my changes, and doing any kind of research or viewing reference materials as I may need. Again though, as you mentioned, and were dead on target, this is rather new for me.

I'm just at the beginning of comp sci major classes, learning C but just starting, know some stuff coming into it (a little), have only ever built one other computer before and that a was bunch of old 5 or 6 year old hardware that had to be pieced together and painfully resurrected.

This will be my first new build. Never dealt with managing a project like this, have no idea what it might actually turn out to be like. Never admin'd a server. Never developed anything except "hello world" and a few other things after that. It's all brand new. What I do have though is resolve, enthusiasm, a desire to succeed, and these little chills that run up and down the back of my neck every time I think of doing something like this. It may take me longer than an experienced person to do something like this but eventually . . . :popcorn:

Seriously though, I really really wonder what this is going to actually be like once I get knee deep into it.

So LowSky, you were candid with me and I believe you shared your wisdom with me from experience. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that.

Please let me know what you think from reading the above. Everyone. Anyone, who has some experience to share. It would help me tremendously by helping me to see what may lay ahead; and, more to the point, 'how much' computer I should need for it.

:)
----------------

Edit:

Oh, I was re-reading something in your last paragraph and think I should clarify. I think it will make a lot more sense if I do.

This service is intended to be much more than just storing data. People will be using 'applications' so to speak that are hosted on the server. I can't go into much more detail than that right now because I'm still not certain what I have isn't a pioneer idea (or at least just not pursued by anyone yet). Maybe it isn't, maybe it is. Up to this point, the few I have shared details with have signed non-disclosure agreements with me and were people I know well. Regarding the computing resources it may take to offer such a service though - I think it's likely they could be considerable. The plan is to: Develop the product to a point it can be demonstrated; do market testing and analysis to provide some indication of interest, market share, startup costs, and various other details; pitch the idea to potential investors, and hope I get a bite. If it goes we won't be running on a makeshift desktop though. This here, right now, is supposed to just be (or become) a mini version that I can use as a springboard to the real thing. Hope that clarifies my intentions a little.

[LowSky]

Don't lose that enthusiasm. The first months, even years, of any business plan need that. It's good to get excited.