Did we already talk about Apple moving away from the optical drive?

[ninjaaron]

So, if we didn't talk about it, There are no optical drives on low-end macs anymore, with the death of the macbook, and it's ubiquitous removal from the new mac-minis.

While there are obviously good reasons not to include an optical drive on a laptop, the removal from the mac-mini is a bit more interesting. It does save a bit of money, weight and girth, but the size isn't really such an issue with the mac-mini. Nobody actually needs a desktop PC to be as small as the mac mini previously was, though I'm not arguing against the existence of a scenario in which it might be useful.

Apple's argument is that everything is moving online anyway, and optical media are quickly becoming obsolete. That is perfectly true. I rarely use my optical drive (though I do happen to be ripping a DVD at the moment, it is a rare occurrence. I normally just buy the physical media and then download the same thing p2p if I want it on my computer).

The end of the floppy disk and the soft disk (anyone remember those? Haven't seen one since I was a little kid...) wasn't such a big deal, since they were immediately replaceable by USB disks and optical media.

The thing about this is that optical is still the major physical format for distributing media, especially blue-ray and the like.

I'm not saying that there aren't other ways to get hi-def media. There are. Namely, through the iTunes store (and Netflicks and whatever else).

The issue is this: While a do believe that optical media is on the way out eventually, it's still far from dead, and it remains the cheapest way to physically move large amounts of data. For people without high-speed Internet access (like my parents until last year; they were in an unincorporated township, but they moved), optical media is the only way to get large amounts of data on the computer. I think Apple knows that, but I think there is a bigger agenda for them.

Even if they loose customers who need/want an optical drive, they can make a lot more money by forcing people who don't care to get their movies and music from iTunes rather than Walmart. It's very clever, but it is also, in a way, an attack on the freedom of the user.

[CharlesA]

I'd rather have an internal dvd burner then have to drag out my external burner each time I need to read or burn a cd/dvd.

My laptop has a dvd burner that I use sometimes, but my netbook didn't and it make installing some things a pain in the butt.

In regards to media - is steaming high-def up to bluray quality yet?

[BeRoot ReBoot]

No, it's ancient technology, the PC makers should let it go the way of the tape drive already. I've been using USB flash drives for all my removable storage needs for years now.

[dpny]

I think the optical drive will stay put in the iMacs and Mac Pros--the machines most likely to be used by people authoring DVDs--but is likely on its way out elsewhere. The last piece of software I bought on physical media was COD:MW2.

I was a bit unsure about doing the 10.7 update using only Apple's App Store, but it was the most painless OS upgrade I've ever done.

[Oxwivi]

Oh it's nothing big, Apple just wants you to be sitting ducks in an event of internet-downtime. Just your usual conspiracy involving online streamers paying Apple to support their services. :P

[ninjaaron]

In regards to media - is steaming high-def up to bluray quality yet?I don't know if streaming is (don't use it), but I know you can download a lot of stuff at 1080p, and I don't think blueray is much better than that


No, it's ancient technology, the PC makers should let it go the way of the tape drive already. I've been using USB flash drives for all my removable storage needs for years now.

Removable storage, yes. Do you watch more movies with a flash-drive than you do with optical media?

[dpny]

Removable storage, yes. Do you watch more movies with a flash-drive than you do with optical media?

Most people I know stream, through NetFlix or something like it.

[ninjaaron]

I think the optical drive will stay put in the iMacs and Mac Pros--the machines most likely to be used by people authoring DVDs--but is likely on its way out elsewhere. The last piece of software I bought on physical media was COD:MW2.

I haven't bought any software on physical media for at least five years. I've boughten CD's and dvd's this year, and I like at least to have the music I buy on my computer an pmp, so I rip all of my CD's, and I do this all on a low-end laptop (aprox. $450 in the US. More here).

[dpny]

I haven't bought any software on physical media for at least five years. I've boughten CD's and dvd's this year, and I like at least to have the music I buy on my computer an pmp, so I rip all of my CD's, and I do this all on a low-end laptop (aprox. $450 in the US. More here).

I haven't bought a CD in years, except as a present for my parents.

[ninjaaron]

I haven't bought a CD in years, except as a present for my parents.

Not all of the options for online media are available in all parts of the world. I'm sitting in Jerusalem, and I can't use Pandora, Veoh, Hulu, or Amazon MP3's, and my selection on the Ubuntu One store is very limited. Furthermore, a lot of the local artists only have music available in optical format. Even if everything were available here, the internet is rarely fast enough to stream hi-def content.

The world is bigger, and possibly even more diverse, than NYC.

[LMP900]

I think you're right about the bigger agenda. One reason is Apple is trying to shift its costumers towards online distribution channels (particularly their own). As is Amazon. If you look at their homepage, they have moved the Android Appstore, Kindle books, music downloads, and video streaming above the physical goods on the side menu.

Personally, I'm not concerned since I don't use optical media anymore. But I can understand the resistance to this move. Luckily, there will be plenty of options on the PC side for several years, as I'm sure manufacturers are less willing to omit features as Apple is.

[dpny]

Not all of the options for online media are available in all parts of the world. I'm sitting in Jerusalem, and I can't use Pandora, Veoh, Hulu, or Amazon MP3's, and my selection on the Ubuntu One store is very limited. Furthermore, a lot of the local artists only have music available in optical format.

The world is bigger, and possibly even more diverse, than NYC.

I wasn't arguing that my access to online services is everyone's experience, merely offering my experience. I know people who still listen largely to vinyl, so clearly they don't download.

That said, the trend is obvious: we're quickly moving away from physical media and, while there large sections of the world where physical media is still the primary way of distribution, in the heavily-cosmopolitan, heavily-wired portions of the world which drive much technological innovation, physical media is on its way out. Even in those portions of the world in which downloading is more problematic, the trend is there, and accelerating.

As an aside, we all (unfortunately) know the reason you can't use Amazon or Hulu in Jerusalem has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with media monopolies protecting their assets at our expense. But perhaps that's a different thread.

[dpny]

And I should say I'm hedging my bets: when I downloaded the 10.7 installer I dug out the installer disc image and burned it to DVD. Better safe than sorry.

[3Miro]

CD and DVD are better than floppy in every way.

CD and DVD have one key component on top of USB/On-line. CD and DVDs are permanent.

As time goes on, there may be less need for CDs and DVDs, but until we get another permanent storage device, those will be around.

[el_koraco]

I'm not saying that there aren't other ways to get hi-def media. There are. Namely, through the iTunes store

Sapienti sat.

[KiwiNZ]

CD and DVD are better than floppy in every way.

CD and DVD have one key component on top of USB/On-line. CD and DVDs are permanent.

As time goes on, there may be less need for CDs and DVDs, but until we get another permanent storage device, those will be around.

CD/DVD's are not permanent, the physical recording layer starts to "decompose" after about two years resulting in lost data and data corruption. That is why it is recommend you redo optical media discs after about 18 months.

[dpny]

CD/DVD's are not permanent, the physical recording layer starts to "decompose" after about two years resulting in lost data and data corruption. That is why it is recommend you redo optical media discs after about 18 months.

Depends on how you store them. My CDs and DVDs are in a closet which is closed most of the time, so no direct sunlight, no big temperature fluctuations, etc. I've got CDs I burned ten years ago which are still readable.

That said, the only true permanent media is carving into stone. . .

[KiwiNZ]

The optical drives in my Imac and MacBook Pro have only been used once each. In my MacPro it has been used a bit more often but I would be just as happy using one of my external drives.

[ninjaaron]

Of course, I'm not really arguing that anyone needs an internal optical drive. There are practical uses, but most people in the western world can survive without it.

The point is that Apple isn't just designing hardware, they are programming user behavior.

[KiwiNZ]

Of course, I'm not really arguing that anyone needs an internal optical drive. There are practical uses, but most people in the western world can survive without it.

The point is that Apple isn't just designing hardware, they are programming user behavior.

You are assuming the people do not have free will.

[dpny]

Of course, I'm not really arguing that anyone needs an internal optical drive. There are practical uses, but most people in the western world can survive without it.

The point is that Apple isn't just designing hardware, they are programming user behavior.

They're not programming anything: Apple doesn't do legacy support, period, and clearly the company sees physical media as something which will be legacy sooner rather than later.

[BeRoot ReBoot]

Removable storage, yes. Do you watch more movies with a flash-drive than you do with optical media?

Why would you need optical media or removable drives to watch movies?

:confused:

[wirepuller134]

Why would you need optical media or removable drives to watch movies?

:confused:

We purchase the physical media when we want a movie. We don't pay for or use any streaming service for movies. That would be why we need them. We have on average 50 users a day on our connection, so streaming would be a definite bottle neck.
From a business stand point, we distribute physical prints and manuals with our products as well as a CD with all the same information in digital format. Prints age over time or get wet/destroyed from use, this way they can print the information themselves without us having to charge them to send a new copy.

[alexan]

From my point of view Apple get pretty slow on this.
During Mac Mini stuff there was already a more reasonable desktop eeep without optical drive. It would had pretty logic to do not provide optical driver already at that time. if apple didn't it were for two main reason:
1. Optical drive more easily broke == pay apple for reparation/(unlikely)upgrade.
2. OSX update were more easy to sell with CD+package.

[red_Marvin]

The only reason I use optical media nowadays is because the old computers I have laying around often do not support booting from any other kind of media except floppies.

[ninjaaron]

You are assuming the people do not have free will.

On the contrary, darling. I'm assuming that ease and force of habit will alienate people from their right to choose, not that they will lose the right.

I'm not suggesting that the exclusion of the optical drive is immoral (though it may be impractical for some), or even that Apple's desire to make money by making iTunes the easiest media solution on a Mac is immoral (though it's a little sneaky, the way they are going about it).

All that I'm saying is that this is another one of Apple's devices to lock people into their platform, and those interested in the healthy maintenance their freedom should pay attention to what is happening. Apple is using their common sense on their behalf. Consumers should use some on theirs.

I might even buy a mac-mini (there is one killer app in my academic field that is exclusive to mac), but I will never again buy anything from iTunes. The one album I did buy was more than enough to last a lifetime.

[Thewhistlingwind]

Heres why CD's will live what is arguably far longer than they should:

Cheap media distribution.

Not everyone is going to rely on digital downloads immediately, in the intermediate stage people will still distribute content through CD-R's. Besides, CD's are still lossless quality.

Besides, I feel better knowing I have a "physical" copy.

[BeRoot ReBoot]

We purchase the physical media when we want a movie.

It's like I'm really in 2005.

[LowSky]

When I built my newest PC I installed a Bluray drive. I have never used it for anything more than DVD's but it there "if I need it". I like having that piece of mind.

When I buy my next laptop I really don't want it to have an optical drive, as I see them as just a something to break and draw power. I get by on flash drives and streaming just fine.

At first I was reluctant to move toward streaming my media, but Amazon hasn't led me astray yet and I am planing to pick up their tablet this winter season to compare it against a Google experience.

[BeRoot ReBoot]

When I built my newest PC I installed a Bluray drive. I have never used it for anything more than DVD's but it there "if I need it". I like having that piece of mind.

PEACE of mind. You like having that PEACE of mind.

[Cracklepop]

The last two computers I bought, a netbook and laptop (neither Apple), had no optical drives, and the optical drive on my desktop is unplugged (because some quirk means the machine won't boot otherwise).

Barring retailers forcing free optical drives on me for free, I'm sure I'll never buy another.

[Oxwivi]

I wasn't arguing that my access to online services is everyone's experience, merely offering my experience. I know people who still listen largely to vinyl, so clearly they don't download.

That said, the trend is obvious: we're quickly moving away from physical media and, while there large sections of the world where physical media is still the primary way of distribution, in the heavily-cosmopolitan, heavily-wired portions of the world which drive much technological innovation, physical media is on its way out. Even in those portions of the world in which downloading is more problematic, the trend is there, and accelerating.

As an aside, we all (unfortunately) know the reason you can't use Amazon or Hulu in Jerusalem has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with media monopolies protecting their assets at our expense. But perhaps that's a different thread.
It's not just Jerusalem, outside the US and EU, such things are rare. I'm sure you've heard this place called Dubai in the Middle East. They're modern enough to have FTTH (fiber to the home) everywhere. But the thing is, streaming services like Hulu and Netflix are not available here.


Depends on how you store them. My CDs and DVDs are in a closet which is closed most of the time, so no direct sunlight, no big temperature fluctuations, etc. I've got CDs I burned ten years ago which are still readable.

That said, the only true permanent media is carving into stone. . .
Not quite, stones wear down too. (Though it might not wear down much if it's in the shelter of home, but still...)

[walt.smith1960]

It's like I'm really in 2005.

You may wish you were in 2005 when ISPs begin widespread broadband metering and unlimited data for a set price is but a fond memory. You want to stream media? Pay me $0.XX/GB. for everything above a certain amount. Download more? Pay me more! Plus any cost associated with the content.

[ninjaaron]

Not quite, stones wear down too. (Though it might not wear down much if it's in the shelter of home, but still...)

Not to nit-pic, but being that this is part of my discipline, I simply feel I must.

The oldest human-created data not on stone, clay, glass, or bone is something like 2200 years old, and it is only by great luck that any paper or velum of that age survived. We know they had it loooong before then, but it's all disintegrated.

Clay has been uses as a data-storage medium since the invention of writing. Clay that hasn't been fired will fall apart relatively quickly, but filed clay basically turns into stone, so we have receipts written on fired clay that are around 5000 years old. There could probably be older, but the technology for firing clay was new at the time.

Bone has been used as a medium for artistic design for even longer. I believe the oldest etched bone we have is around 8000 years old (though I could be mistaken). Bone does fall apart over time, but it takes a while.

And then there is stone. The oldest human generated data is, of course, preserved in stone. Scientists believe that the cave paintings in Chauvet, France are 35,000 years old. Of course, stone can hold fossil and chemical data for millions of years (or so it appears), so it is reasonably safe to assume that, if humans had been making inscriptions for that long, we would have some of them.

So, while you can, of course, loose data that is carved in stone, it's probably your best option for long-term storage (have to chose the right kind of stone, of course).:p

Fired clay is also a good option, and there are probably some modern synthetics that could also compete (maybe Polyoxymethylene?).

[BrokenKingpin]

I personally hate optical media... the faster the industry moves away from it the better. My two main rigs do not have a CD/DVD drive... and over the last two years I have only needed to pull my USB DVD drive out once for it.

[Grenage]

My machines haven't had DVD/CD/BD drives for years! I install my OS via USB, and the rest either comes across via the internet or ESATA/USB.

I have on one occasion had to install from CD, but I took the drive out when I was done.


In regards to media - is steaming high-def up to bluray quality yet?

Lol, God no; consider the bandwidth requirements of real BD quality - not the psuedo HD companies currently pump out.

[CharlesA]

Lol, God no; consider the bandwidth requirements of real BD quality - not the psuedo HD companies currently pump out.

That's what I thought. I couldn't imagine pushing thru 25GB (or is it 50GB per disc?) of data for a 2 hour movie. I somehow doubt a home connection could handle that if it's streaming.

[Grenage]

That's what I thought. I couldn't imagine pushing thru 25GB (or is it 50GB per disc?) of data for a 2 hour movie. I somehow doubt a home connection could handle that if it's streaming.

That's right; I think that the BD spec needs about 40Mb/s, and BD3D needs 50% again - so about 60Mb/s for modern* stuff. While there are net connections that could cope, most people don't have that sort of stable bandwidth, so the viability for customer base is bleak. At least, that's how I understand the situation.

*Gimmicky

[CharlesA]

That's right; I think that the BD spec needs about 40Mb/s, and BD3D needs 50% again - so about 60Mb/s for modern* stuff. While there are net connections that could cope, most people don't have that sort of stable bandwidth, so the viability for customer base is bleak. At least, that's how I understand the situation.

*Gimmicky
Yep, that would own my connection. Lol

[mips]

Depends on how you store them. My CDs and DVDs are in a closet which is closed most of the time, so no direct sunlight, no big temperature fluctuations, etc. I've got CDs I burned ten years ago which are still readable.


I've got original PS1 cd's I stored in their cases in a box in a cupboard. Many of them no longer work I found out the other day when my one mate asked for games as he found his old PS1 and is letting his young daughter play with it.

[KUU]

Next USB 3.0 will be replaced with ThunderBolt, it's all about capacity and speed.

[ninjaaron]

Next USB 3.0 will be replaced with ThunderBolt, it's all about capacity and speed.

That all depends on if anyone but Apple adopts the technology. Firewire was much better than USB, but no other hardware manufactures implemented it, so peripherals were rather difficult to come by.

and @blueray bit-rates... holy mother. My connection maxes out at 700Kbs, and that's only in the early morning when nobody else in the neighborhood is online. My connection would need to be about 80x faster to "stream blueray."

(yeah, it's still like that here).

[doorknob60]

I always use DVDs and CDs (burning them), because they are extremely cheap and I can store large files on them to save hard drive space. Also, I sometimes have a hard time staying under my 100 GB Bandwidth cap, so I can't stream completely everything. Also, I've never had any luck installing OSes from USB, it never seems to work right for me :P I use CDs for that too.

[ninjaaron]

Also, I've never had any luck installing OSes from USB, it never seems to work right for me :P I use CDs for that too.

I'm pretty sure Apple won't mind if you can't get Ubuntu working.