Is incompatible hardware becoming largely a thing of the past?

[kaldor]

Linux has traditionally been labled as an OS that just simply doesn't work with much modern hardware. I've really beginning to feel that this is no longer true. I posted my experience a few times in different posts, but thought it would be kinda interesting to see where the rest of the community stands on this. This isn't Windows vs Linux either. The reason I am posting this is simply because I never have to alter or mess around with anything; I buy something, it just works. Other people often tend to complain about how nothing works, and I'm kinda confused about it.

Wireless works out of the box on most PCs that I've used it on. For example, I tried my Ubuntu 11.04 live USB on a few (5 or 6; dunno the card) computers at a store before buying one. Every PC had working wireless except one. I bought the one that did not have an out of the box wireless support; a Google search revealed the latest kernel already included it. It is already working on the Oneiric beta.

Graphics cards were also a weak point in Linux before. From my experience, both NVIDIA and ATI/AMD are excellent in this department. My Ubuntu dual boot seems to have comparable FPS to that on Windows 7; in some cases, it's even better. Open source NVIDIA and AMD are good for out of the box setups on desktops these days also. Not ready for laptops yet, but will get there soon I assume.

My audio seems to have about par quality between Windows 7 and Natty. I think Windows 7 works slightly better here, but in general I only notice it in some very specific places. Overall, sound quality is nearly identical.

I haven't found a printer yet which hasn't worked with the generic drivers available in Ubuntu or Fedora. My scanner also works out of the box with no tinkering. My cameras all work fine and are instantly detected by Shotwell.

Are my needs just very limited, or is the old stigma no longer true? Please, post your experiences on machines made within the last 3 years.

This isn't a "praise Linux" thread, so please don't post WorksForMe or anti-Windows/Apple replies. Some people get lucky, some don't. The point of this thread is to get community feedback as to where Ubuntu stands when buying a new PC or peripheral. It'll probably end up in Recurring, though.

tl;dr: Does Linux still suck with your hardware?

Edit: Just a reminder that I am mainly talking about modern machines. As in if you go out and buy a new PC or device, will it work or not.

[aeronutt]

My experience; Linux lags (state of the art) hardware by at least 1 yr.

Details: ~10 months ago, purchased a new Dell Vostro with i3 Intel processor and AMD discrete GPU. 10.04LTS and 10.10 simply didn't work on the new hardware. 11.04 worked somewhat, and the AMD graphics is not supported. Just in the last few weeks, 11.04 is now working pretty well, except for the AMD GPU.

Now, throw in the power bug in the latest kernels, and one could argue that Ubuntu/Linus is still not where it should be.

[texaswriter]

I'm not sure I would generalize like that, mostly because it takes a lot of hard work by a lot of people to ensure that. Because some hardware manufacturers don't even bother trying to write Linux drivers or releasing much in the way of specs, it unfortunately does take hard work with some of the hardware.

You do see this "open source hardware" thing developing, so I guess we'll see where that takes us.

[texaswriter]

My experience; Linux lags (state of the art) hardware by at least 1 yr.

Details: ~10 months ago, purchased a new Dell Vostro with i3 Intel processor and AMD discrete GPU. 10.04LTS and 10.10 simply didn't work on the new hardware. 11.04 worked somewhat, and the AMD graphics is not supported. Just in the last few weeks, 11.04 is now working pretty well, except for the AMD GPU.

I know some people are particular about only using non-proprietary drivers and software, but if I bought proprietary hardware (read: any hardware), I'm going to accept a "proprietary" driver if it works. As such, I always use the ATI (AMD now) drivers for my graphics cards (same as a built-in gpu) and have never had problems.

[aeronutt]

I know some people are particular about only using non-proprietary drivers and software, but if I bought proprietary hardware (read: any hardware), I'm going to accept a "proprietary" driver if it works. As such, I always use the ATI (AMD now) drivers for my graphics cards (same as a built-in gpu) and have never had problems.

Neither non-proprietary or proprietary drivers are working with my AMD GPU. If I knew then what I know now, I would have upgraded from the i3 to and i5 or i7 processor, and dropped the AMD GPU.

[hakermania]

No, as long as new hardware comes out there will be problems

[kaldor]

Neither non-proprietary or proprietary drivers are working with my AMD GPU. If I knew then what I know now, I would have upgraded from the i3 to and i5 or i7 processor, and dropped the AMD GPU.

For comparison's sake, which GPU?


I'm not sure I would generalize like that...

Not sure if that was directed at me or not, but I am going based on 5 computers in my home as well as another handful when testing at a store. Everything I checked was always working out of the box.

[texaswriter]

Neither non-proprietary or proprietary drivers are working with my AMD GPU. If I knew then what I know now, I would have upgraded from the i3 to and i5 or i7 processor, and dropped the AMD GPU.

Downloading the driver (32/64 bit).
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx

Installation instructions for the driver on Natty.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Ubuntu_Natty_Installation_Guide

If you have another version of Linux, you can find the installation instructions here.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Category:Installation_Documentation

Verify the install.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Verifying

Configure the installation.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Configuring

Troubleshooting. (Uninstall all ATI drivers from system from previous installation attempts AND THEN try ALL the above steps in all the links before troubleshooting).
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Troubleshooting

[Oxwivi]

Quite old Pentium IV here, but with the exception of the nVidia GPU, everything runs great.

[keithpeter]

Hello All

There is also the question of support for older hardware, as some drivers are dropped or will not compile/install on current releases of the kernel.

I'm thinking of some of the older nvidia cards &c

http://mark.pilgrim.usesthis.com/

Scroll down to the 'dream setup' section. I'd like a hardware that I could just use for 10 years, with fully updated system hardware. I've got four years on this AMD box with nvidia 6150 graphics. Its running Debian 6 and when that drops off the end of old stable I might move sideways to CentOS 6.

[aeronutt]

For comparison's sake, which GPU?

AMD Radeon HD 6630M (128-bit) 1GB Graphic

[aeronutt]

Downloading the driver (32/64 bit).
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/linux/Pages/radeon_linux.aspx

Installation instructions for the driver on Natty.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Ubuntu_Natty_Installation_Guide

If you have another version of Linux, you can find the installation instructions here.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Category:Installation_Documentation

Verify the install.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Verifying

Configure the installation.
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Configuring

Troubleshooting. (Uninstall all ATI drivers from system from previous installation attempts AND THEN try ALL the above steps in all the links before troubleshooting).
http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Troubleshooting

Thanks, I appreciate the help. But I've tried them all. And many others. And many complete reloads of the OS. :):)

[Iowan]

I'm 1 for 3 in webcam department, so far. The Labtec works, the Microsoft and Logitech - not so much. (The Microsoft didn't work on a Windows box, either - but the Logitech did).

[kaldor]

I'm 1 for 3 in webcam department, so far. The Labtec works, the Microsoft and Logitech - not so much. (The Microsoft didn't work on a Windows box, either - but the Logitech did).

Just to compare with my own stuff, I found an old Webcam that I bought back around 2004. It's a generic, very low quality one, but when I plugged it into my PC it worked automatically. Same goes for my laptop's webcam (magically stopped working in Lucid for some reason though).

[beew]

My experience; Linux lags (state of the art) hardware by at least 1 yr.
.

I year behind state of the art is not a big deal for most people, in fact even on Windows forums they advise people to stay ~ a year behind state of the art because things are more likely to not work if hardware is too new and price drops quite a bit after one year.

[JustinR]

nVidia Optimus technology (unsupported in Linux) largely makes your expensive dedicated graphics card useless and is becoming much more common, especially at Dell.

Some TV Tuners/Fingerprint readers also come to mind.

[rjbl]

Linux has traditionally been labled as an OS that just simply doesn't work with much modern hardware. I've really beginning to feel that this is no longer true. I posted my experience a few times in different posts, but thought it would be kinda interesting to see where the rest of the community stands on this. This isn't Windows vs Linux either. The reason I am posting this is simply because I never have to alter or mess around with anything; I buy something, it just works. Other people often tend to complain about how nothing works, and I'm kinda confused about it.

Wireless works out of the box on most PCs that I've used it on. For example, I tried my Ubuntu 11.04 live USB on a few (5 or 6; dunno the card) computers at a store before buying one. Every PC had working wireless except one. I bought the one that did not have an out of the box wireless support; a Google search revealed the latest kernel already included it. It is already working on the Oneiric beta.

Graphics cards were also a weak point in Linux before. From my experience, both NVIDIA and ATI/AMD are excellent in this department. My Ubuntu dual boot seems to have comparable FPS to that on Windows 7; in some cases, it's even better. Open source NVIDIA and AMD are good for out of the box setups on desktops these days also. Not ready for laptops yet, but will get there soon I assume.

My audio seems to have about par quality between Windows 7 and Natty. I think Windows 7 works slightly better here, but in general I only notice it in some very specific places. Overall, sound quality is nearly identical.

I haven't found a printer yet which hasn't worked with the generic drivers available in Ubuntu or Fedora. My scanner also works out of the box with no tinkering. My cameras all work fine and are instantly detected by Shotwell.

Are my needs just very limited, or is the old stigma no longer true? Please, post your experiences on machines made within the last 3 years.

This isn't a "praise Linux" thread, so please don't post WorksForMe or anti-Windows/Apple replies. Some people get lucky, some don't. The point of this thread is to get community feedback as to where Ubuntu stands when buying a new PC or peripheral. It'll probably end up in Recurring, though.

tl;dr: Does Linux still suck with your hardware?

Edit: Just a reminder that I am mainly talking about modern machines. As in if you go out and buy a new PC or device, will it work or not.

Are my needs just very limited, or is the old stigma no longer true?

Personally, I've never found much truth in the 'old stigma' that GNU/Linux ain't much good on the bleeding edge of hardware. It is probably true that current GNU/Linux does noticeably better on old kit than current Windows does - that dates back to the days of RedHat 5 and 486 processors.

'Twas always so and probably ain't going to change much in the foreseeable future. GNU/Linux has always been supported by a very competent and very keen hardware driver writing community to very good effect. I have never known a failure in any of the generic drivers - since about 1995/6. OK so proprietary drivers more often enable the full capabilities of the h/w to be exploited but, there again, in all current distros the relevant proprietary drivers are trivially easy to locate and install.

Edit: Just a reminder that I am mainly talking about modern machines. As in if you go out and buy a new PC or device, will it work or not.[/QUOTE]

The Exam Question: In my experience the answer is yes; but that has been true for about the last ten or fifteen years. All the sweaty moments that I can recall involving h/w driver angst have actually been in Windows systems - in which I worked as a pro since 1985.

rjbl

[NightwishFan]

Linux has traditionally been labled as an OS that just simply doesn't work with much modern hardware.
Linux sometimes has support for hardware before it is even physically available. The only problem is when the specs are not open for some hardware. Or (optimus?) they make it hard to run on Linux.

[smellyman]

I think we can all agree it has come a looooooooonnng way.

My first experience with linux in 02 was a nightmare and I quickly gave up since nothing would work. No NIC, no modem, bad video etc...

Now it is very rare that I have an issue, actually the only issue I had in the last couple of years was a broadcom wireless card, but now that seems to work on every distro now.

if I have a retail copy of windows and a linux distro, the chances of everything working ootb is greater on Linux. Espcicially since the windows dirvers quickly become outdated on the cd. Getting a wireless card or a wired NIC to work on windows can be a pain. I have to download dirvers for it on linux and move to the Windows pc via usb stick......

[Legendary_Bibo]

No...no it's not. My wireless card didn't just work out of the box I had to edit a configuration file, and install some stuff, and my graphics card on my other laptop (ATI card) has poor performance.

[NightwishFan]

No...no it's not. My wireless card didn't just work out of the box I had to edit a configuration file, and install some stuff, and my graphics card on my other laptop (ATI card) has poor performance.

I have been lucky so far. My laptop is supported with no non free firmware files on Debian's stock .32 kernel (amd64). Soundcard works input/output, webcam works (and is automatically flipped so the image isn't upside down), my graphics get great performance, I am able to play Urban Terror at 60+ frames solid, I also have native kernel modesetting and 1 second resume from suspend, wireless works, cdrom drive passes cdparanoia tests, Multi-monitor output works, and I get my advertised 4hrs of battery life.

I like Asus, if not Zareason, I am always buying from Asus.

[ninjaaron]

Ha. No, it is not a thing of the past.

I have a netbook with a Broadcom Crystal HD card, which has an open source driver, that isn't in the kernel for some reason. It has an egalax multitouch screen which does have a driver in the kernel, and it doesn't do multitouch. There is no driver for the accelerometer. Out of box, touchscreen is completely broken, but there is a tweak. Same with headphone jack and internal mic.

So, in my experience, there are still plenty of problems. My other computer has always worked perfectly with Linux, however. It just has some generic Intel motherboard without any extras. Boring, but you know it will work. Intel does it right.

[kaldor]

No...no it's not. My wireless card didn't just work out of the box I had to edit a configuration file, and install some stuff, and my graphics card on my other laptop (ATI card) has poor performance.

Which wireless and graphics cards? As for wireless, I think a large number of Realtek and Broadcom cards will "just work" with recent Linux distros these days. Realtek usually had out of the box support, and Broadcom's open source drivers are trickling into the kernel.

Edit:

I've also heard some people say things along the lines of "good luck getting your multimedia keyboard/multibutton mouse working under Linux", which for me and a few other Linux users I know disagree with. I use a logitech mouse with 9 buttons and it works identically in Windows and Linux without any additional tweaking. An older multimedia keyboard I have works out of the box as well and all of the shortcut keys work with no tinkering.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to disprove anything, btw. I'm well aware of the problems a lot of people tend to have, but I still think a large lot of it is FUD (not directed at anyone here) based on the experiences of myself and others.

[forrestcupp]

Try recording audio using ASIO for an M-Audio Fast Track external sound card. It ain't gonna happen. In Windows 7, I just plug it in, and it works. If I install the drivers, it works very well.


I think we can all agree it has come a looooooooonnng way.
I do agree that things have come a long way.

[disabledaccount]

Try recording audio using ASIO for an M-Audio Fast Track external sound card. It ain't gonna happen. In Windows 7, I just plug it in, and it works. If I install the drivers, it works very well.Just for curiosity I've asked uncle Google about this sound card and He told me something different:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/M-Audio_FastTrack_Pro
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/42396
Low-latency tweaks/patches for usbaudio are also available.
Peoples are able to get it working in simultaneous 2in/4out mode and main "tweak" that allows to use basic functionality is to add device id.

It's not very surprising that not every piece of HW will work OOTB just after lauching OS from pendrive.

[forrestcupp]

Just for curiosity I've asked uncle Google about this sound card and He told me something different:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/M-Audio_FastTrack_Pro
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/42396
Low-latency tweaks/patches for usbaudio are also available.
Peoples are able to get it working in simultaneous 2in/4out mode and main "tweak" that allows to use basic functionality is to add device id.
Windows 7 - plug it in, open up your recording software, lay some tracks

Linux - plug it in, scour the web to find different patches to get each individual problem to work, spend hours trying to learn how to patch the kernel with multiple patches, remove Pulse audio because it gets in the way of the required Alsa, try to get your sound to even work after removing Pulse, try to set up all the different parts of Jack and unsuccessfully try to figure out how it all works together, open up your recording software, find out that it's still a PITA to figure out how to get Ardour to interface with the right sound card, after consuming a couple of bottles of Excedrin, try to lay some tracks.

Trust me. I didn't just come up with a Google link, I spent some time on this. Even if it's possible, it isn't worth it.

[el_koraco]

try to get your sound to even work after removing Pulse,

Isn't that just a one line in gconf-editor in Gnome?

[forrestcupp]

Isn't that just a one line in gconf-editor in Gnome?

Windows 7 - plug it in, open up your recording software, lay some tracks.

[el_koraco]

I'm not comparing stuff, I'm just wondering about the Pulse to Alsa escape. I don't have Pulse on my machine, but I did try it for a day or so, and installing and removing it was extremely easy. That was Openbox, though, not Gnome.

[NightwishFan]

You know what never mind.

[forrestcupp]

I'm not comparing stuff, I'm just wondering about the Pulse to Alsa escape. I don't have Pulse on my machine, but I did try it for a day or so, and installing and removing it was extremely easy. That was Openbox, though, not Gnome.

I wish I would have known about that when I was beating my brains out. :)

[el_koraco]

I wish I would have known about that when I was beating my brains out. :)

I think your problems were due to all the Gnome apps integrating with Gstreamer, which is closely tied to Pulseaudio in Gnome (and KDE more recently). You gotta make sure all the Gstreamer channels point to Alsa, and you also gotta get rid of the default sound indicator and stuff like that. It might very well be problematic in Gnome.

However, audio apps that aren't DE specific, like VLC, mplayer, Audacious and gang let you choose which sound system you want to use. Ditto for Flash, it should just be piped through any audio sink available.

[disabledaccount]

Windows 7 - plug it in, open up your recording software, lay some tracks

Linux - plug it in, scour the web to find different patches to get each individual problem to work, spend hours trying to learn how to patch the kernel with multiple patches, remove Pulse audio because it gets in the way of the required Alsa, try to get your sound to even work after removing Pulse, try to set up all the different parts of Jack and unsuccessfully try to figure out how it all works together, open up your recording software, find out that it's still a PITA to figure out how to get Ardour to interface with the right sound card, after consuming a couple of bottles of Excedrin, try to lay some tracks.

Trust me. I didn't just come up with a Google link, I spent some time on this. Even if it's possible, it isn't worth it.You've suggested that this card is unusable on Linux while in fact it's fully supported by open source driver.

It took me maybe 20 secs to find the patch - so please. Patching kernel with ready to use patch is not more complicated than f.e. compiling wine. But generally it's special case - normally it's completely oposite situation:

Linux - boot to live session from pendrive run install, click 6 times forward and watch Your favorite YouTube songs/movies or check whats new on ubuntuforums.org - almost none of existing PC's will make troubles.

Windows7/Vista/XP (still very popular on older machines):
After long installation not much HW works OOTB, except keyboard, mouse and limitted VGA support, limitted sound drivers (if You have AC97). You have to install each additional driver separately and if You are lucky then maybe it wont be necessary to search for older versions of drivers after it becomes clear that newest are broken (like f.e. Intel WiFi). In case of XP searching for drivers is rather time-consuming task these days, as most manufacturers are not providing them on main dowload sites.

In last Year I had maybe ~40 different laptops which I've boosted with ubuntu - almost everything worked flawlessly OOTB with FULL HW functionality, even such exotic like DELL XPS M1710 (with the "magic" back and ambient lights)

[kaldor]

There are lots of workarounds for incompatible stuff, but not many people are going to really bother with it. My thread isn't really about stuff that "may" work, but rather things that will just work and work properly.

Like forrestcupp said, "Even if it's possible, it isn't worth it". Things need to just work or else nobody is going to bother with it. That's the hard fact when dealing with most users.

[disabledaccount]

There are lots of workarounds for incompatible stuff, but not many people are going to really bother with it. My thread isn't really about stuff that "may" work, but rather things that will just work and work properly.

Like forrestcupp said, "Even if it's possible, it isn't worth it". Things need to just work or else nobody is going to bother with it. That's the hard fact when dealing with most users.
1. I think You have wrong understanding of term "compatible"
2. drivers not included in mainstream are still drivers.
3. Workarounds are needed in every existing OS on the planet - they are preceding final solutions/bug fixes.
4. You should title Your topic like "Does Linux supports all the existing hardware?" or "Is it easier to install Utra-Jtag-PCI-analyser under Linux or under windows" (or something in this sense), but answer for current topic is simply: yes, because most commonly used HW works OOTB (what in practice means ~98%) and in almost all other cases drivers are available to users, just not always included in mainstream.

[Legendary_Bibo]

You've suggested that this card is unusable on Linux while in fact it's fully supported by open source driver.

It took me maybe 20 secs to find the patch - so please. Patching kernel with ready to use patch is not more complicated than f.e. compiling wine. But generally it's special case - normally it's completely oposite situation:

Linux - boot to live session from pendrive run install, click 6 times forward and watch Your favorite YouTube songs/movies or check whats new on ubuntuforums.org - almost none of existing PC's will make troubles.

Windows7/Vista/XP (still very popular on older machines):
After long installation not much HW works OOTB, except keyboard, mouse and limitted VGA support, limitted sound drivers (if You have AC97). You have to install each additional driver separately and if You are lucky then maybe it wont be necessary to search for older versions of drivers after it becomes clear that newest are broken (like f.e. Intel WiFi). In case of XP searching for drivers is rather time-consuming task these days, as most manufacturers are not providing them on main dowload sites.

In last Year I had maybe ~40 different laptops which I've boosted with ubuntu - almost everything worked flawlessly OOTB with FULL HW functionality, even such exotic like DELL XPS M1710 (with the "magic" back and ambient lights)

Protip: Install Windows 7 with an internet connection.

[disabledaccount]

Protip: Install Windows 7 with an internet connection.OOTB stands for "Out Of The Box".
Try linux with internet connection... :)

[Legendary_Bibo]

OOTB stands for "Out Of The Box".
Try linux with internet connection... :)

Yeah linux doesn't let my wireless card function OOTB so yeah I would if I could.

[NightwishFan]

Yeah linux doesn't let my wireless card function OOTB so yeah I would if I could.

Then buy a wireless card that works and stop complaining.

[Neken]

Then buy a wireless card that works and stop complaining.

protip: you can't buy wireless cards for most laptops.

[NightwishFan]

protip: you can't buy wireless cards for most laptops.

Sad. 1. Buy a laptop that works. 2. There are usb wireless adapters.

[kaldor]

Sad. 1. Buy a laptop that works. 2. There are usb wireless adapters.

Like I said before, I found that the wireless worked on most new PCs I've tried it on.

[user1397]

I thought this was largely the case until I bought a Gateway laptop a few months ago.

I had never had any real hardware problems with Linux especially Ubuntu before, but this laptop has given me my share of headaches.

For one, it wouldn't even boot correctly (or it did, but the screen would be black) until I messed with some grub settings (like setting acpi=off)

Also, even though under ubuntu my wifi worked out of the box (although it was a lot more flaky then on Windows 7), I could not get it to work at all under kubuntu, which was what I really wanted to install.

I tried a few other distro to see if it wasn't an ubuntu only issue, and it sure wasn't.

Now I know that you're thinking oh well that's just one model, but I believe it is actually most of the Gateway and Acer models that came out this year, either AMD or Intel, as I have gotten similar results on my sister's Acer which is almost identical to my Gateway. I should definitely have checked more how compatible it was with Linux, but since I never had to before I forgot to do it. This is the first computer I've had in the last 5 years that I feel more comfortable on Windows than on Linux, and that makes me sad :(

***EDIT: This thread prompted me to give ubuntu a try again, and going against my previous 5 year mentality I decided to forgo the latest and greatest and give the current LTS a try (10.04) and voila! 0 problems, completely flawless and seamless install...ah the ubuntu I know :) I guess I'll stick to this release for a while, at least until I know my hardware works perfectly under the new ubuntu.

[cariboo]

protip: you can't buy wireless cards for most laptops.

How about these (http://discountechnology.com/Products/Wireless-Network-Interface-Cards-NIC)?

There are a lot more available from other manufacturers.

[dpny]

How about these (http://discountechnology.com/Products/Wireless-Network-Interface-Cards-NIC)?

There are a lot more available from other manufacturers.

I think you're actually making his point: odds are that with Windows (and definitely with OS X) the wireless card would work OOTB: no need to google or patch a kernel or buy something else.

So long as Linux remains what it is--an open source OS with no centralized control--it will continue to have hardware problems Windows and OS X don't have. Apple and MS collectively employ thousands of people whose job it is to flog hardware to make sure things work OOTB. Linux doesn't have this.

This isn't to say that one is better than the other, but that the development ecosystems of these respective OSes result in different end-user experiences.

[el_koraco]

So long as Linux remains what it is--an open source OS with no centralized control--it will continue to have hardware problems Windows and OS X don't have. Apple and MS collectively employ thousands of people whose job it is to flog hardware to make sure things work OOTB. Linux doesn't have this.


MS doesn't emplov thousands of people to work on drivers themselves, they employ people to work on their driver model and do some work for their generic drivers. The rest is done by manufacturers.

[beew]

I think you're actually making his point: odds are that with Windows (and definitely with OS X) the wireless card would work OOTB: no need to google or patch a kernel or buy something else.
.


If you google for PC problems most of the hits you get are for Windows, that is a fact. What do you think Windows forums are for?
Do you believe that usb wireless cards are bought only by Linux users?

If Windows work out of the box why are there so many third party tweaks even for simple things like unattaching an external drive? (I used to use a thing called "unlocker" or something like that in XP because when you attached an external drive you just can't stop it from Windows) Just switch to Windows 7 at work and printer has stopped working.

[ninjaaron]

It's actually kind of weird to think that kernel developers have to work on drivers at all. Hardware manufacturers are usually supposed to make sure their **** works with a variety of systems. While a lot of companies do provide the source for their drivers these days, there are still relatively few that actually port them to Linux themselves.

Then again, that's pretty much what the kernel is. Just a layer that talks to the hardware, manages it's resources, gets instructions from the programs for the hardware. Any user environment, including the console shell, is a separate program. As far as I know, the user never actually interacts with the kernel directly.

I don't know what this has to do with driver support anymore. I'm rambling. Bye.

[el_koraco]

It's actually kind of weird to think that kernel developers have to work on drivers at all. Hardware manufacturers are usually supposed to make sure their **** works with a variety of systems. While a lot of companies do provide the source for their drivers these days, there are still relatively few that actually port them to Linux themselves.

Different development models. One of the biggest complaints against Linux, when it comes to proprietary drivers, is the lack of a stable API and ABI that drivers can be written against. Otoh, when dealing with open source drivers, the Linux kernel model makes life easier for hw manufacturers, because all they have to do is get the driver into the main tree, and the kernel guys handle the maintenance. There's an old document by the kernel devs named The Stable API nonsense, which adresses some of this stuff.

It's questionable whether a change in the model would intice manufacturers to provide better quality proprietary drivers - it would be more similar to the Windows model, so I guess they'd be on more familiar ground, but it's not like a lot of companies employ dozens of people to write Linux drivers - and it's pretty obvious what advantages the model provides for open source drivers, but ya know, whatever.

[forrestcupp]

Windows7/Vista/XP (still very popular on older machines):
After long installation not much HW works OOTB, except keyboard, mouse and limitted VGA support, limitted sound drivers (if You have AC97). You have to install each additional driver separately and if You are lucky then maybe it wont be necessary to search for older versions of drivers after it becomes clear that newest are broken (like f.e. Intel WiFi). In case of XP searching for drivers is rather time-consuming task these days, as most manufacturers are not providing them on main dowload sites.I won't argue that installing XP from scratch really sucks. But it began to change with Vista.

I've installed 7 on a lot of machines. On each different machine, everything necessary worked perfectly out of the box, then when it connected to the internet, it automatically installed working drivers for everything, including my all-in-one printer, and fully working, hardware accelerated video drivers. I'm not trying to argue which is better; I'm just trying to point out that what you said isn't very accurate, except for the XP part.



Like forrestcupp said, "Even if it's possible, it isn't worth it". Things need to just work or else nobody is going to bother with it. That's the hard fact when dealing with most users.Exactly. There are some things that just aren't worth beating your brains out when it just works easily in the Windows that came installed on my machine. For everything else, Linux is probably better.



OOTB stands for "Out Of The Box".
Try linux with internet connection... :)
Try Linux without internet connection. ;) It royally sucks.

[dpny]

If you google for PC problems most of the hits you get are for Windows, that is a fact. What do you think Windows forums are for? Do you believe that usb wireless cards are bought only by Linux users?

And if you read Linux forms you will see an endless list of hardware problems, major and minor. I'm not sure what your point was.


Just switch to Windows 7 at work and printer has stopped working.

No problems with the Windows 7 install at work, or the XP installs, for that matter.

As I said, the hardware issues with Linux are a result of the development model, and are unlikely to go away. Canonical has solved some of them by focusing on making Ubuntu as painless as possible--and it's the most painless Linux install I've seen--but even then, as the forums show, there are many, many problems getting it to work.

There really is no way to avoid this entirely. The only solution is the Apple model, complete control of hardware and software. And, even there, it's not 100% successful.

[kaldor]

If you google for PC problems most of the hits you get are for Windows, that is a fact. What do you think Windows forums are for?
Do you believe that usb wireless cards are bought only by Linux users?

If Windows work out of the box why are there so many third party tweaks even for simple things like unattaching an external drive? (I used to use a thing called "unlocker" or something like that in XP because when you attached an external drive you just can't stop it from Windows) Just switch to Windows 7 at work and printer has stopped working.

Of course most problems are toward Windows. Less than 10% of people do not use Windows on a desktop or workstation. If people buy a USB wireless device, it's most likely going to work on Windows... because that's what it was intended for.

I use a few external drives and they all work just fine under Windows 7.

[Oxwivi]

Speaking of USBs, every single model needs to install drivers on Windows. On the other hand, Linux's fantastic generic USB driver means no need to install anything.

[dpny]

Speaking of USBs, every single model needs to install drivers on Windows. On the other hand, Linux's fantastic generic USB driver means no need to install anything.

Every single model? Mine plugs into Windows and OS X with no problems.

[kaldor]

Speaking of USBs, every single model needs to install drivers on Windows. On the other hand, Linux's fantastic generic USB driver means no need to install anything.

This is one of the things that drove me absolutely insane on Windows XP. Every time I plugged in a new device (mouse, keyboard, anything) it would freeze up for a while before a window popping up saying something about drivers. I don't remember this ever happening on my new Win7 system.

[MG&TL]

Well, I don't really think that you can say that all the old hardware works, either. my Nvidia graphics card works OK-ish on 10.04 and 10.10, in that it runs 3d-acceleration, but not compiz or anything effects-ish (it seems to be blacklisted :confused: (I gave up on it long ago, don't worry))

But on 11.04 I have to install the nouveau driver (which gives about 1/3 of the performance), or else it doesn't boot. And the nouveau driver kills Unity 3d.

However, on my newer laptop, everything works fine,except for hideously slow internet on 10.10.

Sheesh, we aren't here because it's easy.

[forrestcupp]

Speaking of USBs, every single model needs to install drivers on Windows. On the other hand, Linux's fantastic generic USB driver means no need to install anything.

What do you mean by USB? Try plugging in a Lexmark All-in-One printer and tell me if the generic USB driver makes it work.

[NightwishFan]

I used Linux for years without an internet connection. Just download a dvd with all the debs/rpms (I bought a boxed OpenSUSE 10.3 DVD). Had all I needed for office work, music work, etc.

[beew]

Of course most problems are toward Windows. Less than 10% of people do not use Windows on a desktop or workstation. If people buy a USB wireless device, it's most likely going to work on Windows... because that's what it was intended for.

I use a few external drives and they all work just fine under Windows 7.


Doesn't matter what %, if everything works out of the box you shouldn't be seeing any complaint or problem regarding Windows at all. So the proportional argument fails.

I use a few external drives and they work in WIndows, just that you cannot stop them even when you want to, I am sure I was not the only person with that problem, otherwise no one would have created a program (the unlocker) just for that purpose.

[beew]

And if you read Linux forms you will see an endless list of hardware problems, major and minor. I'm not sure what your point was. But you claim Windows always work out of the box, so why all the complaints? I never said Linux always does.


No problems with the Windows 7 install at work, or the XP installs, for that matter.
So because you don't have problem that means OOTB for everyone? Just told you we have had no printer since we installed Windows7. Today the technician came to tried to install the driver but still no luck, he said he would come take another look tomorrow, that is not OOTB.


As I said, the hardware issues with Linux are a result of the development model, and are unlikely to go away. Canonical has solved some of them by focusing on making Ubuntu as painless as possible--and it's the most painless Linux install I've seen--but even then, as the forums show, there are many, many problems getting it to work.It is lack of manufacturer supports, nothing to do with developmental model. Given the lack of support Linux's hardware compatibility is actually quite awesome. I would like to see how well the "WIndows model" would work if the hardware manufactures decide to give them the same level of support as they do Linux.

,

[dpny]

But you claim Windows always work out of the box, so why all the complaints? I never said Linux always does.

Windows works better OOTB on a wider range of hardware than Linux. Just the way it is.


I would like to see how well the "WIndows model" would work if the hardware manufactures decide to give them the same level of support as they do Linux.

This makes no sense, and doesn't matter.

Linux will always have this issue. It's just the way it is.

[NightwishFan]

Windows works better OOTB on a wider range of hardware than Linux. Just the way it is.
Citation needed.




This makes no sense, and doesn't matter.
I guess English isn't your first language. At least I hope that is why you do not understand.


Linux will always have this issue. It's just the way it is.
I suppose you are the expert. Oh wait...

[beew]

Windows works better OOTB on a wider range of hardware than Linux. Just the way it is.

It is because many hardware manufacturers practically work for MS and the OEMs who do all the testings before they put the computers together. How is that surprising?




Linux will always have this issue. It's just the way it is.Why? It is just a bald assertion and should be dismissed simply.

[dpny]

Why? It is just a bald assertion and should be dismissed simply.

Because Linux isn't a product: it's a community supported effort. This means:

1) The various groups which produce Linux don't get access to hardware before it's released like Apple and Microsoft do. They have to wait until the hardware is released to work on it;
2) Because it's a community effort there is are no large teams of people working solely on new hardware compatibility as there are with Apple and Microsoft. There are groups of people working on various things, but there is no central, coordinated effort like Apple and Microsoft;
3) There is no one person directing these efforts to make new hardware compatibility a priority. The community sets the priorities, and new hardware compatibility (or old hardware compatibility, for that matter) isn't always the priority.

And so forth.

I'm not saying that the hardware problems in Linux are a bad thing. There are just a by product a community-supported development effort. There are advantages to centralized, corporate OSes like Windows and Apple, and there are advantages to OSS efforts like Linux.

[Khakilang]

Windows works better OOTB on a wider range of hardware than Linux. Just the way it is.

To my experience Window doesn't work OOTB or has the latest driver. You need the hardware CD drivers or else it won't work.

[NightwishFan]

Because Linux isn't a product: it's a community supported effort. This means:
Thank you for winning any semblance of argument for me. Ever hear of Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Google, IBM, Intel, Microsoft? All of them are contributors to the Linux kernel and some have full time workers paid to do so.

Ever hear of Android?


1) The various groups which produce Linux don't get access to hardware before it's released like Apple and Microsoft do. They have to wait until the hardware is released to work on it;
http://www.linux.com/news/hardware/peripherals/278579-linux-and-usb-30
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/X86-64#Linux

Linux had supported x86_64 in long mode and USB 3.0 before the hardware was even physically available to consumers.


2) Because it's a community effort there is are no large teams of people working solely on new hardware compatibility as there are with Apple and Microsoft. There are groups of people working on various things, but there is no central, coordinated effort like Apple and Microsoft;
Wrong. :P See above.


3) There is no one person directing these efforts to make new hardware compatibility a priority. The community sets the priorities, and new hardware compatibility (or old hardware compatibility, for that matter) isn't always the priority.
This may be more of an issue, but it also leads to more of a crowd sourced development model where multiple organizations and individuals can contribute.


And so forth.
And this is how my story ends....


I'm not saying that the hardware problems in Linux are a bad thing. There are just a by product a community-supported development effort. There are advantages to centralized, corporate OSes like Windows and Apple, and there are advantages to OSS efforts like Linux.
Then what are you saying? Why not just say this to begin with?

[Legendary_Bibo]

If you google for PC problems most of the hits you get are for Windows, that is a fact. What do you think Windows forums are for?
Do you believe that usb wireless cards are bought only by Linux users?

Ummm...I think marketshare plays a big role in this...just saying.


If Windows work out of the box why are there so many third party tweaks even for simple things like unattaching an external drive? (I used to use a thing called "unlocker" or something like that in XP because when you attached an external drive you just can't stop it from Windows) Just switch to Windows 7 at work and printer has stopped working.

I just plugged in my HP Printer (notorious for not working with Windows 7) and I could print stuff. It's a network printer, and Ubuntu at least sees it, but I've yet to figure out to make it print.

[dpny]

Thank you for winning any semblance of argument for me. Ever hear of Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Google, IBM, Intel, Microsoft? All of them are contributors to the Linux kernel and some have full time workers paid to do so.

Ever hear of Android?

Install Android on your desktop. Is Android Linux? Yes. Does it count for this thread? No.

Do some companies have people contributing to Linux? Yes. Are those people dedicated to making sure you can install Ubuntu on any laptop?

No.


Linux had supported x86_64 in long mode and USB 3.0 before the hardware was even physically available to consumers.

Yet you can't go into a Best Buy, pick a laptop and be sure it will work with Ubuntu OOTB. Once again, support for one piece of tech is not the same as what this thread is about.

The basic fact: if you want to be sure that your flavor of Linux will run, you need to research the hardware you want to buy.


Then what are you saying? Why not just say this to begin with?

Because I thought it was obvious.

I'm not saying one OS is better than the other: I don't care. I'm saying that different organizational models will give different results. Apple's strict, top-down integration means that, for the most part, things will just work. Microsoft's massive investment in working with OEMs means that Windows runs on a wide variety of hardware with relatively few problems. And the open source model of Linux means it's free, open and almost infinitely configurable. However, it also means that, depending on your combination of kernel, desktop environment, etc., you may find your wireless card not working, your GPU giving terrible results, or your trackpad deciding it's not interesting in working.

Different models, different results.
Different advantages, different drawbacks.
Different folks, different strokes.

[NightwishFan]

Is Android Linux? Yes.
Yup.

Do some companies have people contributing to Linux? Yes.
Quite so.




Yet you can't go into a Best Buy, pick a laptop and be sure it will work with Ubuntu OOTB.
I don't shop at Best Buy so I wouldn't know.


Once again, support for one piece of tech is not the same as what this thread is about
No it is about "Incompatible hardware becoming largely a thing of the past".


The basic fact: if you want to be sure that your flavor of Linux will run, you need to research the hardware you want to buy.
Or just buy it from a company that specializes in Linux hardware. They do exist.


I'm not saying one OS is better than the other: I don't care.
You seem to care a great deal more than I do.


I'm saying that different organizational models will give different results. Apple's strict, top-down integration means that, for the most part, things will just work.
The existence of Apple tech support says otherwise.



However, it also means that, depending on your combination of kernel, desktop environment, etc., you may find your wireless card not working, your GPU giving terrible results, or your trackpad deciding it's not interesting in working.
The same is true for any hardware an operating system does not support.


Different models, different results.
Different advantages, different drawbacks.
Different folks, different strokes.
Different troll same argument.

[dpny]

Or just buy it from a company that specializes in Linux hardware. They do exist.

So, in order to avoid hardware incompatibility, I should look for a company which specializes in hardware guaranteed to work with Linux?

So we agree.

Let's make a bet: I bet that, in two years, the threads here will still be filled with posts asking how to make hardware work with the then-current Ubuntu.

I like Linux: I screw around with it for no reason other than curiosity. But I'm not required to turn a blind eye to its shortcomings.

[NightwishFan]

So, in order to avoid hardware incompatibility, I should look for a company which specializes in hardware guaranteed to work with Linux?
That is one option.


So we agree.
We may agree on some things.


Let's make a bet: I bet that, in two years, the threads here will still be filled with posts asking how to make hardware work with the then-current Ubuntu.
I am certain there will still be tech support and Windows forums talking about those same issues.


I like Linux: I screw around with it for no reason other than curiosity. But I'm not required to turn a blind eye to its shortcomings.
Likewise for Windows 7. Only I do not care enough to troll their forums about it. :)

[Oxwivi]

Every single model? Mine plugs into Windows and OS X with no problems.
Dunno about Macs, but Windows will need to install something the first time, regardless of what kind of device it is. Unlike Linux - if it has support it supports. If it doesn't, well, I'm inexperienced with such hardwares.


What do you mean by USB? Try plugging in a Lexmark All-in-One printer and tell me if the generic USB driver makes it work.
Well, I admit I wasn't clear, but I was referring to those simple devices, i.e. storage, keyboard/mouse, cameras, etc.

Not my personal experience, but I've read in the forums that some people can't run Microsoft devices on Windows. And other devices, even with operating system support mentioning Windows, it doesn't work.


This is one of the things that drove me absolutely insane on Windows XP. Every time I plugged in a new device (mouse, keyboard, anything) it would freeze up for a while before a window popping up saying something about drivers. I don't remember this ever happening on my new Win7 system.
Never freezed for me on XP, but on WIndows 7 they still install drivers the first time around. Only now they look for the drivers on the Internet before complaining of missing drivers.

[CarlosFerreira]

I am afraid it might not all be a thing of the past. A couple of months ago I bought a new laptop (HP g6, AMD quad-core processor) and in went Linux. Plenty of problems with 11.04, both ubuntu and Mint. Both 11.04s eventually crashed and burned, which has led me to revert back to 10.10 (detailed here (http://cyclingmonkey.wordpress.com/2011/09/03/adventures-in-ubuntu-3-grief-anger-salvation/)).
I managed to install everything neatly (sound, wireless, graphics), but it is still cranky in places (for instance, does not like waking up from hibernation and the microphone sound is way worse than it was with Natty).
I never managed to install or run Natty off a LiveCD in this particular box; I have always had to install Maverick and update it - sure sign that Not All Is Well. I look forward to Ocelot solving most of these problems.

That said, Linux sure has come a long way. For instance, the first time I tried ubuntu, in the heady days of Hardy Heron, I never managed to get the sound card to work, never mind the video. It's evolving in the right direction, and I hope the evolution goes on.

[sdowney717]

I have a USB vbox 3560 which no one has written a device driver in linux.
It picks up over the air hdtv broadcasts

http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/VBox_Cat's_Eye_USB-A_3560

[BrokenKingpin]

I would say hardware compatibility is largely a thing of there past. Sure, new devices will be released where we may not have support right away, but they usually get support fairly quickly.

Even the hardware vendors themselves are getting better. I bought a Canon printer and I can get Linux divers directly from their website (in .deb format).

That all be said I find that things that use to work fine will sometimes be broken in the next release. The touchpad on my netbook worked fine in 9.10... but 10.04+ the driver has been broken. It is very frustrating because it has been a known issue for for 3 releases, coming up on 4 and it has not been fixed. It is also not just one specific netbook either, it is effects a lot of netbooks.

[forrestcupp]

I used Linux for years without an internet connection. Just download a dvd with all the debs/rpms (I bought a boxed OpenSUSE 10.3 DVD). Had all I needed for office work, music work, etc.I guess I should have said Ubuntu. Some distros with a large DVD repository are pretty good for offline use.


Citation needed.If you count the fact that during installation, Windows 7 connects to their server and downloads their own Microsoft drivers for a lot of hardware, I don't think any rationally minded person would need a citation that shows that Windows 7 works OOTB for more hardware than Linux does. There's no reason to not count that when you consider that Ubuntu does the same thing and downloads updates during installation.

People make hardware for Windows, then they work their butts off to get WHQL signed drivers for their hardware. That's just how things are. That doesn't take away from the fact that the Linux devs are doing an awesome job working from the ground up to close the gap.

[dpny]

Only I do not care enough to troll their forums about it. :)

I'm not trolling: I'm offering my opinion. Apparently that's just a bit too much for you.

Anyway, that's enough bandwidth wasted. We'll see where things stand in two years.

[NightwishFan]

I'm not trolling: I'm offering my opinion. Apparently that's just a bit too much for you.
No, I just like winning arguments. You can't 'hit me where it hurts'. :P

My honest opinion is hardware support is lacking, but no unreasonably so. It is above the curve where I would not consider recommending or adopting a GNU/Linux system (and that is being conservative).

Special care is needed to ensure you have a good experience, but I had not done so and I have no hardware that functions incorrectly. Luck? Of course, but I believe that a good percentage of hardware is detected if I can play lotto and pick hardware that works great.

[MG&TL]

With a great deal of respect, couldn't you people be out helping to write drivers for dodgy hardware, rather than arguing about it? Just a thought...

[NightwishFan]

With a great deal of respect, couldn't you people be out helping to write drivers for dodgy hardware, rather than arguing about it? Just a thought...

Well for Ubuntu at least it is for end-users (consumers). So I suppose hardware working without needing to be a computer hobbyist is the point of this thread.

I only know python. :-(

[Oxwivi]

Well for Ubuntu at least it is for end-users (consumers).
While I understand you don't know the necessary knowledge to code drivers, using Ubuntu doesn't mean you can't develop drivers. Kinect drivers were shown to be developed on Ubuntu, for example.

[NightwishFan]

While I understand you don't know the necessary knowledge to code drivers, using Ubuntu doesn't mean you can't develop drivers. Kinect drivers were shown to be developed on Ubuntu, for example.

You misinterpreted my statement. Ubuntu is a fine developer platform.

I said that users of Ubuntu are more justified to complain about hardware since it is not a hobby os and is a product.

[Legendary_Bibo]

With a great deal of respect, couldn't you people be out helping to write drivers for dodgy hardware, rather than arguing about it? Just a thought...

That doesn't sound fun. Making an app for Windows Phone/Android and for the desktops is a lot more fun though.

[NightwishFan]

If I were a low level C/Assembly programmer I would hack on the cpu and io schedulers and not drivers. I also agree that my talents and fun lie more in interface design.

[czig49]

ive yet to have luck finding a printer/all in one. that i can plug and play. my lexmark printer never would work. my brother all in one, had drivers but to get the scanner to work someone finally told me how to script it. have never got the wireless part of the all in one to function. hopefully when i get my next printer i can find some kinda list somewhere that gives me a company and model # that i can walk in buy,go home plug and play. thanks for bringin the subject up. printers have been my only hang up since i started using ubuntu.

[NightwishFan]

All in one printers are generally a recipe for failure. I have a HP printer/scanner that works as of the hplip in Debian Testing. (I have to backport it to stable to use the scanner, otherwise the printer works).

[czig49]

the printer/all in one thing is something that i really hope the brainy ones here will make changes to. kinda a basic part of computing imho.

[Oxwivi]

HP printers generally work - it worked for me, the all-in-one as well.

[forrestcupp]

My honest opinion is hardware support is lacking, but no unreasonably so. It is above the curve where I would not consider recommending or adopting a GNU/Linux system (and that is being conservative).

Special care is needed to ensure you have a good experience, but I had not done so and I have no hardware that functions incorrectly. Luck? Of course, but I believe that a good percentage of hardware is detected if I can play lotto and pick hardware that works great.I totally agree with you there. I just can't agree that Linux has better hardware support than Windows 7 OOTB. But what you're saying here is right on.


With a great deal of respect, couldn't you people be out helping to write drivers for dodgy hardware, rather than arguing about it? Just a thought...Lol. Lol.

So you think all Linux users are hardware level Assembly language programmers who are able to reverse engineer drivers for hardware whose specs haven't been released by their companies? The point of making Linux easier to use is so that the many people who don't know how to program can use it. That means that there are now a lot of Linux users who don't know how to program at all, even arguing on these forums. ;)


ive yet to have luck finding a printer/all in one. that i can plug and play. my lexmark printer never would work.
Lexmark sucks for Linux. In the past, I've had Lexmark all-in-one printers that I was finally able to get to print, but nothing else ever worked.

[el_koraco]

Printing. This is the post-PC era, people, printing is so 2009.

[forrestcupp]

Printing. This is the post-PC era, people, printing is so 2009.

As soon as I get a tablet, my printing is going to go way down. The only thing I'll still have to print will be forms that people have to fill out and sign, only to be scanned back into my computer, and then shred the form.

Everything else, I either just save digital copies, or print to pdf, even all of my tax forms.

[Oxwivi]

Printing. This is the post-PC era, people, printing is so 2009.

Yeah, legal procedures and stuff are so yesterday. Certificates and licenses should be digital in this day and age!

[el_koraco]

Yeah, legal procedures and stuff are so yesterday. Certificates and licenses should be digital in this day and age!

I refuse the jurisdiction of any court that doesn't have a stack of iPads in the chambers!

[forrestcupp]

Yeah, legal procedures and stuff are so yesterday. Certificates and licenses should be digital in this day and age!

I actually recently told my wife that I wish they'd come up with a way to get your driver's license on your smart phone. :)

At least you can already scan coupons from a smart phone or tablet.

[MG&TL]

I wouldn't know how to write a driver either. I did say 'help to', which is the whole point of open-source and Ubuntu in my opinion, if you can't code, you file bug reports and experience. You could also classify and pre-process those bugs.

Although I agree it's not a lot of fun. And it was only a suggestion.

[sffvba[e0rt]

Due to the amount of spam this thread has received, I decided to close it.


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