japanese

[mmsmc]

any body hear speak Japanese?? ive recently started studying it (on my own) so far ive memorized the hiragana and katakana alphabet, but haven't found anyplace that has kanji, im doing it on my own for the same reason i use linux, my very limited budget :D, with that said, does anybody know of any good websites that might provide some help on my journey?

[haqking]

i would recommend learning Joyo Kanji first which is the 2000 most commonly used charcters of over 50,000 ;-) 1000 of the 2000 would make you proficient though.

but essentail for reading and writing of course.

I would thoroughly recommend finding a personal one on one teacher, preferably Japanese themselves as you will learn culture and tradition also which is essential to understanding the language i think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_j%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji

there are some good videos on youtube also.

[mmsmc]

holy mother of..... thats alot :D thanks

[Thewhistlingwind]

While your at it, any resources on learning Russian/Crylic?

[mmsmc]

i am Ukrainian, so i do know a little Russian, if you are going on a limited budget like i am i would suggest youtube! the alphabet is pretty easy to learn, but the pronunciations are difficult :D

[haqking]

While your at it, any resources on learning Russian/Crylic?

ha funily enough i took Russian middle school, and i zoned out the whole year, i can remember 4 words...ha

But rosetta stone and pimsleur have been good resources for me for a few different languages over the years.

but these look ok

http://learn-cyrillic.ehpes.com/

http://www.gadling.com/2009/03/30/gadling-teaches-you-to-read-the-cyrillic-alphabet-in-5-minutes/

http://www.russian-plus.com/

[hhh]

good website

http://www.livemocha.com/

List of languages available...
http://www.livemocha.com/learn-languages-online-free

[kaldor]

While your at it, any resources on learning Russian/Crylic?

The Russian alphabet was extremely easy for me to learn. I was familiar with all the letters after just two nights of studying it. Now, I can very easily read or transliterate the Cyrillic alphabet, even though my Russian is extremely bad.

A good practice is to try writing English words in Russia's Cyrillic alphabet. This way, Russian doesn't feel as foreign when you attempt it.

The way to think about Cyrillic is that it's an alphabet just like the latin (English alphabet) one. There's nothing weird about it compared to syllable-based writing systems like Japanese hiragana/katakana.

Examples:

Privet = Привет
Da = Да
Net = Нет
Rossiya = Россия
Restoran = Ресторан (tricky =p)

English with Cyrillic:

Ubuntu = Убунту
Hello = Хелло
Yes = Ес
No = Но
England = Ингланд
Canada = Канада
United States of America = Юнаитед Стэйтс оф Америка

Think of it as an extension of your letters like in French (é, œ) German (ö, ä), etc.

[mmsmc]

http://www.livemocha.com/

List of languages available...
http://www.livemocha.com/learn-languages-online-free


hmmm i think ive heard about that before, its free isnt it?

[hhh]

@mmsmc, yes.

[Nytram]

You might find a language translator useful, an application called Pangles can translate Japanese and Russian (amongst others) into English:

http://marteq.net/pangles/pangles.html

[BeRoot ReBoot]

As I understand it, the Japanese writing system is triply redundant - they have two different vocal sign systems (that accomplish the same thing) and a chinese-like symbolic system.

What is the purpose of this? If every Japanese word can be written in either of them, why learn three different systems to express the same thing?

Imagine English being written in latin, cyrillic and hindi scripts, interchangeably, for no apparent reason. All it achieves is confusing foreigners.

Japan - constantly generating up to 90% of the world's weird ****.

[mmsmc]

yes, there is hiragana, which is the traditional writing system, katakana which is for foreign words, and finally kanji, which is for more complex grammar, everything can be written in kanji, hiragana, or katakana, but they are mixed together for grammatical purposes. this is because there was no writing system for the Japanese, not sure when(i am NOT an expert :D) it was only spoken :)

[Bachstelze]

this is because there was no writing system for the Japanese, not sure when(i am NOT an expert :D) it was only spoken :)

Around the 5th century AD IIRC. Basically they imported the Chinese characters, but since those characters had been designed for another language, they were not entirely adequate to write Japanese, so hiragana and katakana were added to "fill in the blanks".

[haqking]

As I understand it, the Japanese writing system is triply redundant - they have two different vocal sign systems (that accomplish the same thing) and a chinese-like symbolic system.

What is the purpose of this? If every Japanese word can be written in either of them, why learn three different systems to express the same thing?

Imagine English being written in latin, cyrillic and hindi scripts, interchangeably, for no apparent reason. All it achieves is confusing foreigners.

Japan - constantly generating up to 90% of the world's weird ****.


ha ha yeah i am sure when they were designing the language the intent was to make it difficult especially for foreigners.

katakana = block style phonetic symbols for writing foreign loan words, foreign names and emphasis

hiragana = smooth style phonetic symbols for inflected endings, grammatical particles and various other japanese words.

kanji = meanings as well as sounds

romanji = romanised japanese

[whatthefunk]

Oooooo! I have lots of useful things. When I get home and onto my computer Ill post again to tell you all the wonderful Japanese things Ive found that you might find useful.

[NightwishFan]

Interesting thread! Thank you for the links. I have just started to learn Japanese recently and have been looking perhaps for some communities where I can learn about it.

There are actually deb packages probably in Ubuntu universe which are about japanese. Kiten, gjiten etc..

[whatthefunk]

Okay, Im at my home machine now.

First, have you enabled a Japanese input system on your computer? You will need this. The method of doing this varies by OS, so I cant offer much help without knowing what OS you use.

Once you get that going, Id install some Japanese fonts on your computer. Most standard English fonts deal with Kanji very poorly and trying to read them on your pc can be a nightmare. Some of the clearer ones Ive found:
ttf-sazanami-mincho
ttf-takao (mincho)
ttf-dejima-mincho
Mincho means, poorly translated, writing in a clear, proper style. SO any font that says mincho will probably do.

If you're wanting to learn kanji, Id also get:
ttf-kanjistrokeorders
This one is brilliant because it shows very clear kanji plus has little arrows to show the proper way to write it. (If you havent started writing kanji yet, youll soon find out that writing the strokes in the proper order and direction is key.)

Then, I recommend installing Gjiten dictionary. In a terminal

sudo apt-get install gjiten
Or you can find it in the package manager.
Its a great dictionary...comes with KanjiDict, which is a great kanji dictionary, and kanji pad which allows you to search for kanji by writing them with your mouse (Ive had mixed success with this).

Im more of a traditional study kind of guy so dont study much on the computer and dont know much about the following, but you might like the following:
kiten - Japanese reference and study aid for KDE
kdrill - A Kanji drill and dictionary program
anki - extensible flashcard learning program

Like I said, Im a traditional study kind of guy, so some books (those things made out of paper and ink) that you might want to look into getting:
Basic Kanji Book (http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Kanji-Book-Vol-1/dp/4893580914/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312977324&sr=8-1)
The best kanji learning book around. Amazon is charging about two times too much for it though...

Minna No Nihongo (http://www.amazon.com/Minna-Nihongo-Book-Bk-Japanese/dp/4883191028/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312977455&sr=1-1)
One of the better basic Japanese books. Again, Amazon is ripping people off with the price. You can get it for half that in Japan.

Kodansha's Essential Kanji Dictionary (http://www.amazon.com/Kodanshas-Essential-Dictionary-Japanese-People/dp/4770028911/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312977542&sr=1-1)
A dictionary of the 2,000 Joyo Kanji. Includes several ways to look up kanji, clear pictures showing how to write them, and lists several compounds for each kanji. You probably wont find much use for this at this point though.

If you're serious about learning kanji, I cant stress how important it is to learn the different readings that each kanji has. If you dont do this, you will come to a point where you realize that you actually cant read at all. I personally think that it is also important to learn to write them because you arent truly literate if you cant write and it helps you memorize. In Japan they have special notebooks for writing kanji that have boxes with grids in them so that students can get their spacing right. I would suggest looking for a something similar...graph paper maybe?? Spacing and balance are very important when writing kanji.

Thats all I can think of at the moment. I think a lot of this simply depends on what type of learner you are.

[krapp]

Japan - constantly generating up to 90% of the world's weird ****.

Japan: one of the world's major visual and therefore cinematic cultures.

I am not trying to learn Japanese. However, watching Japanese film with English subtitles might give you a feeling for conversational Japanese.

You can't go wrong with a film by either Kurosawa, Ozu, or Kobayashi.

[Bachstelze]

Okay, Im at my home machine now.

First, have you enabled a Japanese input system on your computer? You will need this. The method of doing this varies by OS, so I cant offer much help without knowing what OS you use.

For Ubuntu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1595258


Once you get that going, Id install some Japanese fonts on your computer. Most standard English fonts deal with Kanji very poorly and trying to read them on your pc can be a nightmare. Some of the clearer ones Ive found:
ttf-sazanami-mincho
ttf-takao (mincho)
ttf-dejima-mincho
Mincho means, poorly translated, writing in a clear, proper style. SO any font that says mincho will probably do.

When installing language support in Ubuntu it will install the Takao font family. Mincho fonts roughly correspond to serif font in Latin scripts, so they can be hard to read, especially at small sizes. Using gothic fonts is better for learning IMO.


kiten - Japanese reference and study aid for KDE

Kiten is basically just a dictionary (it is actually a frontend for edict and kanjidic). It is a good one, though, so I also recommend it. I don't know about all the other tools you mentioned. If you have access to a Mac, JEDict is da bomb.


In Japan they have special notebooks for writing kanji that have boxes with grids in them so that students can get their spacing right. I would suggest looking for a something similar...graph paper maybe?? Spacing and balance are very important when writing kanji.

You can get kanji notebooks at a reasonable price from jlist (http://www.jbox.com/search/all/kanji_notebook). They have a lot of study material, though none of the books you mentioned. Personally I'm studying with:

Yookoso (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0072971207) because it's the required textbook for the japanese course I'll be taking next year. I've heard the Genki (http://www.jbox.com/product/STU146) series is superior, though. Yookoso is also ridiculously expensive...
The Kanji Drill (http://www.jbox.com/product/ASA051) series of kanji workbooks, it's mostly to immerse myself in 100% japanese material, plus they're cheap and I've found the order in which kanji are covered makes more sense than in Yookoso.
The White Rabbit Press kanji flashcards (http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog/Japanese-Kanji-Flashcards-Series-2-Volume-1-p-16165.html), because everyone loves flashcards, and those are highly recommended. I've found them very good indeed.

[mmsmc]

the terrible thing is that katakana and hiragana are all pronounced the same but written differently :D

[Bachstelze]

the terrible thing is that katakana and hiragana are all pronounced the same but written differently :D

If you think that's terrible, wait until you learn kanji that can be pronounced in five or six (or 15 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%94%9F#Readings)) different ways. ;)

[whatthefunk]

the terrible thing is that katakana and hiragana are all pronounced the same but written differently :D

Its not that bad really. Half of them look similar so that helps.

Im with Bachsteleze...wait until you get into advanced kanji and have to remember kanji with over 20 strokes and all the different readings for them. Or whats even more fun is when you think youve finally learned all the readings of a kanji and then you find a place name that doesnt follow any rules whatsoever.

[whatthefunk]

Oh, and I forgot to tell you about rikaichan, a decent firefox plugin that tells you kanji readings and meanings when you hover over words.

[mmsmc]

ah cool thanks, i really cant wait to start learning kanji! :( my sister is learning mandarin, ive heard the horror stories before!

[whatthefunk]

I actually love kanji and once you get the hang of it its not all that hard. All kanji are made up of combinations of other kanji so once you know the base ones, it becomes much easier. For me at least, it is the absolute best way to remember words and improve my vocabulary. I also find that practicing it is very meditative. Kanji is good for you.

[mmsmc]

those darn asians, everything they do is good for you!! :D

[Grenage]

any body hear speak Japanese?? ive recently started studying it (on my own) so far ive memorized the hiragana and katakana alphabet, but haven't found anyplace that has kanji, im doing it on my own for the same reason i use linux, my very limited budget :D, with that said, does anybody know of any good websites that might provide some help on my journey?

I have taken beginner and intermediate Japanese courses, but only out of basic interest. I had no intention of becoming fluent, because I neither know anyone Japanese, nor have any plans to visit Japan. It's an interesting language, that's for sure; in my opinion, it's also one of the 'prettiest'.

[KUU]

good websites that might provide some help on my journey?


uztranslations

[Bachstelze]

As I understand it, the Japanese writing system is triply redundant - they have two different vocal sign systems (that accomplish the same thing) and a chinese-like symbolic system.

What is the purpose of this? If every Japanese word can be written in either of them, why learn three different systems to express the same thing?

Imagine English being written in latin, cyrillic and hindi scripts, interchangeably, for no apparent reason. All it achieves is confusing foreigners.

Japan - constantly generating up to 90% of the world's weird ****.

Just stumbled upon this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_orthography_issues


In April 1946, Naoya Shiga published National Language Issues in the periodical Kaizo, in which he made a proposal to the effect of abolishing the Japanese language and adopting French, ‘the most beautiful language in the world.’

I approve of this.

[whatthefunk]

I approve of this.

No way! Language and culture are one in the same. If all the Japanese people started speaking French, they wouldnt be Japanese anymore.

On a side note, a French friend of mine swears that English is more romantic than French...

[Gremlinzzz]

What was the first language?
you can find allot of Japanese lessons on youtube :D