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ki4jgt
July 28th, 2011, 09:01 AM
If your computer didn't have a mouse attached, but everything else was the same the OS, hardware, screen settings and the GUI automatically started when you turned it on, could you use your computer?

NOTE: This thread assumes all pointing devices to be mice. Touch screens and software pointing programs as well.

kaldor
July 28th, 2011, 09:03 AM
Design software? No.
Gaming? No.
Coding/web/IMing/etc? Yes.

matthew.ball
July 28th, 2011, 09:10 AM
I don't think I would have any issue without a mouse, but it certainly makes things easier.

StephanG
July 28th, 2011, 09:41 AM
Actually, I was in this situation quite recently. My mouse's battery died, and I didn't have a replacement on standby.

I actually found myself being able to do everything I needed to do, although a lot of it was a lot harder.

vehemoth
July 28th, 2011, 11:05 AM
I would change the set up of my computer for the purpose.
It would at first be hard unless you are used to it, but you'd learn to cope.

mcduck
July 28th, 2011, 11:28 AM
Of course I could. Gnome is pretty usable with keyboard only, and a quick Ctrl-Alt-F1 to switch to a TTY would work as well if using a GUI without a mouse gets annoying.

Besides, there's a CLI application for pretty much every task I need to do that can possibly be done without a pointing device, so gaming, media playback, web surfing and even quite a large part of my work would all be possible with only a keyboard. Some would of course be impossible, while I can handle image processing tasks with Imagemagick any actual drawing/design work would be out of the question.

But if the question is just about being able to use the computer, not about being able to do everything with it, then the answer is definitely yes. :)

edit:
I think it would be equally interesting to hear how much people would be able to do with their computers if they didn't have a keyboard. :D I, for example, wouldn't be able to do much at all since I need the keyboard to log in. However I use MPD as my music player, and since it runs as a daemon it doesn't depend on if I'm logged in or not. So I would still be able to play music on the computer using my android phone as a remote controller. ;)

Bandit
July 28th, 2011, 11:31 AM
I remember when PCs didnt have mice. But today I dont think my GIMP artwork would look as nice without one.

3Miro
July 28th, 2011, 12:30 PM
You can do most things without a mouse, but not all things. You may need to resort to Terminal and lots of Terminal apps (like mail, media player, file management...)

hakermania
July 28th, 2011, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't be able to play WOG and Frozen Bubbles but OK, I'm mostly interested in programming, but I bet that a Windows User couldn't do without it!
And of course you can do everthing from your keyboard!
Super Key - open dash
Alt Key, access menus (also F10)
So, mouse is a helper only

Copper Bezel
July 28th, 2011, 12:53 PM
Without my touchpad, I can't even access minimized applications. Without my keyboard, I can't launch unpinned ones the first place. Similarly, in my car, I can't accelerate or brake without the pedals, nor steer without the steering wheel. Funny that.

RiceMonster
July 28th, 2011, 01:11 PM
Without my touchpad, I can't even access minimized applications.

Alt+Tab?

Copper Bezel
July 28th, 2011, 01:20 PM
Nope. My rig is weird, but it works for me.

mcduck
July 28th, 2011, 01:24 PM
Without my touchpad, I can't even access minimized applications. Without my keyboard, I can't launch unpinned ones the first place. Similarly, in my car, I can't accelerate or brake without the pedals, nor steer without the steering wheel. Funny that.

Perhaps not the best analogy, as a car doesn't ave alternate methods for accelerating and steering, while any decent desktop environment is perfectly usable without only a keyboard. For example Gnome's human interface guidelines make sure you can do everything with the keyboard. I would assume it's the same in KDE as well.


Here's a list of the basic keyboard shortcuts for Gnome & KDE:
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/2289.html

qamelian
July 28th, 2011, 01:31 PM
Sure, I very seldom use a mouse for anything I do regularly. The task I would find undoable without a mouse only occur maybe two or three times per year.

Copper Bezel
July 28th, 2011, 01:43 PM
@ mcduck: It's equally important that a desktop can be configured to work without a keyboard - I'd say more important, given the use case of, say, an HTPC. The OP question is only relevant if it's taken in reference to individual users or configurations, in which case Gnome's internal guidelines aren't directly relevant.

Interfaces are configured for specific kinds of tasks and the specific hardware they're run on. When we're talking about a specific device serving specific functions, then we're closer to the car analogy than we are to the goals of a desktop environment as a whole (meant to include all of those use cases.)

SoFl W
July 28th, 2011, 02:25 PM
I sometimes think mice slow work down, you have to take your hand off the keyboard and reach over to the mouse, move the mouse, and then move your hand back. We have gotten accustomed to mice so we think of them as time saving but I believe using keyboard short cuts would actually be quicker once you were able to get used to it. The first computers I used didn't have mice so maybe that is why I think it slows you down. I also seem to always leave the mouse cursor over what I am trying to type in any input box.

Graphic design would require some sort of pointing device, they used to use light pens.

dragos240
July 28th, 2011, 03:11 PM
I had used something called ratpoison for a while, it's a wm designed to work without mice. It supports them, but it certainly works nicely without.

3Miro
July 28th, 2011, 04:04 PM
A computer has three mods of operation:

1. Both hands on the keyboard
2. One hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse
3. One hand on the mouse and another on my beer

A good environment should be able to operate efficiently in all of those. Some individual applications require either a mouse or a keyboard, but the DE shouldn't make assumptions.

SoFl W
July 28th, 2011, 04:08 PM
That is my point above (#17) your mouse takes away from your hand on your beer time.

Lucradia
July 28th, 2011, 04:13 PM
Yes, I could. Because Windows can assign the numpad to be mouse directions.

But then I'd buy myself a mouse eventually.

hoppipolla
July 28th, 2011, 04:25 PM
I would change the set up of my computer for the purpose.
It would at first be hard unless you are used to it, but you'd learn to cope.

yeah I'd probably eventually do this too. But yes it would be much slower...

Copper Bezel
July 28th, 2011, 04:34 PM
I think 3Miro has it, yes. And incidentally, for those of us using trackpads, it's less a matter of moving an arm to get to the mouse and more a matter of moving a thumb down from the keyboard. OTOH, if I have my machine set aside running a video, it's much more practical to reach for the trackpad than for the keyboard.

3Miro
July 28th, 2011, 04:34 PM
That is my point above (#17) your mouse takes away from your hand on your beer time.

Actually if I only have one hand, I would much rather have a mouse than a keyboard. If you mostly type/code than you are in mode 1 and you should never need a mouse. Mode 2 is best for web an media (and gaming), giving you the best of both worlds. However, if you have only one hand, then getting all the keyboard shortcuts is harder than going things with a mouse.

ninjaaron
July 28th, 2011, 04:56 PM
I can navigate Unity fine without a mouse. I don't really even use it very often as it is. Some of the programs I use have poor support for key-bindings. Browsing the web is possible but rather unpleasant without a mouse, unless you have a browser designed for keyboard use.

polardude1983
July 28th, 2011, 05:32 PM
Link to blog

7 Days using only keyboard shortcuts: No mouse, no trackpad,no problem? (http://www.itworld.com/software/177989/7-days-using-only-keyboard-shortcuts-no-mouse-no-trackpad-no-problem)

forrestcupp
July 28th, 2011, 06:13 PM
In Windows, I would just navigate with the keyboard to the place in the Ease of Access settings where I can turn on Mouse Keys, and use my number pad to move the cursor. :)

IWantFroyo
July 28th, 2011, 06:26 PM
If I was in that situation, I'd just hit <ctrl><alt><f1> and do my work in the command line.

CLI is more versatile than many think.

Lucradia
July 28th, 2011, 08:57 PM
If I was in that situation, I'd just hit <ctrl><alt><f1> and do my work in the command line.

CLI is more versatile than many think.


Especially with framebuffer.

oldsoundguy
July 28th, 2011, 09:04 PM
Good to see the youngsters carry on about a mouse (I use a trackball now)

At one time .. there was NO SUCH THING as a mouse and everything was done from command line or using arrow keys .. or page up/page down and hitting enter.

But that was in ancient times in the era of the 8088 processor and PCDos.

Only APPLE had a mouse. That is why many USED Apple computers. (ease of use!)

aaaantoine
July 28th, 2011, 09:18 PM
Unity actually uses keyboard shortcuts, so there's that.

Beyond that, I work primarily with the web, so there'd be a lot of tabbing to get to the control that I want...

ki4jgt
July 28th, 2011, 10:25 PM
Of course I could. Gnome is pretty usable with keyboard only, and a quick Ctrl-Alt-F1 to switch to a TTY would work as well if using a GUI without a mouse gets annoying.

Besides, there's a CLI application for pretty much every task I need to do that can possibly be done without a pointing device, so gaming, media playback, web surfing and even quite a large part of my work would all be possible with only a keyboard. Some would of course be impossible, while I can handle image processing tasks with Imagemagick any actual drawing/design work would be out of the question.

But if the question is just about being able to use the computer, not about being able to do everything with it, then the answer is definitely yes. :)

edit:
I think it would be equally interesting to hear how much people would be able to do with their computers if they didn't have a keyboard. :D I, for example, wouldn't be able to do much at all since I need the keyboard to log in. However I use MPD as my music player, and since it runs as a daemon it doesn't depend on if I'm logged in or not. So I would still be able to play music on the computer using my android phone as a remote controller. ;)
I started to ask about the keyboard, but figured it would be a necessary thing. I mean, like you said, you can't even login without it. :-(

Sure, I very seldom use a mouse for anything I do regularly. The task I would find undoable without a mouse only occur maybe two or three times per year.
Goodness. . . What's your secret‽

I sometimes think mice slow work down, you have to take your hand off the keyboard and reach over to the mouse, move the mouse, and then move your hand back. We have gotten accustomed to mice so we think of them as time saving but I believe using keyboard short cuts would actually be quicker once you were able to get used to it. The first computers I used didn't have mice so maybe that is why I think it slows you down. I also seem to always leave the mouse cursor over what I am trying to type in any input box.

Graphic design would require some sort of pointing device, they used to use light pens.

I know about leaving your mouse over things. Every time I minimize a window, for some reason, my mouse comes to rest on a midi of Eminem's - Love the Way You Lie that I have on my desktop. So, as I'm walking away, people think I'm this kid into all this rap music :-(


Yes, I could. Because Windows can assign the numpad to be mouse directions.

But then I'd buy myself a mouse eventually.

That's technically a software pointing device


Actually if I only have one hand, I would much rather have a mouse than a keyboard. If you mostly type/code than you are in mode 1 and you should never need a mouse. Mode 2 is best for web an media (and gaming), giving you the best of both worlds. However, if you have only one hand, then getting all the keyboard shortcuts is harder than going things with a mouse.

I had totally forgotten about one handed people. There are one handed typing tutorials, but they are generally on the assumption that the user's input is limited.


Unity actually uses keyboard shortcuts, so there's that.

Beyond that, I work primarily with the web, so there'd be a lot of tabbing to get to the control that I want...

You could install the firefox addon which assigns codes to all the links on the page and then allows you to enter the code. (If they still have it, I'm a chrome user now, it has it's ups and downs, for some reason, it ties up a lot more than FF and can't seem to run more than one flash object at a time, but in general it's speed is great)

oldsoundguy
July 28th, 2011, 10:56 PM
Actually if I only have one hand, I would much rather have a mouse than a keyboard. If you mostly type/code than you are in mode 1 and you should never need a mouse. Mode 2 is best for web an media (and gaming), giving you the best of both worlds. However, if you have only one hand, then getting all the keyboard shortcuts is harder than going things with a mouse.

Careful what you wish for!
My brother has the use of one hand (his right) and the index finger of his left hand .. he uses as LOT of keystroke combinations and we even re wrote some so he could use his right hand for the two keys and the left for a single key .. especially a lot of stuff in Photo Shop!

Copper Bezel
July 28th, 2011, 11:13 PM
Whatever happened to MIT's reworking of the old chord keyset idea as a one-hand keyboard? Their idea was to use it for mobiles (back before there were mobiles) because it was held basically like a Wiimote, so a person could conceivably walk and type.

ki4jgt
July 28th, 2011, 11:30 PM
Link to blog

7 Days using only keyboard shortcuts: No mouse, no trackpad,no problem? (http://www.itworld.com/software/177989/7-days-using-only-keyboard-shortcuts-no-mouse-no-trackpad-no-problem)

I'm up for the challenge. Anyone else??? :-))

krapp
July 29th, 2011, 01:38 AM
Install Openbox, Conkeror, Moc, and Emacs, and stop wondering. Not news-worthy at all.

matthew.ball
July 29th, 2011, 01:49 AM
Unity actually uses keyboard shortcuts, so there's that.

Beyond that, I work primarily with the web, so there'd be a lot of tabbing to get to the control that I want...
There's a sweet browser called Conkeror (not to be confused with the KDE browser which is Konqueror), which originally started as an extension to Firefox (this could be what ki4jgt is mentioning at the end of his post), but is these days a separate application built on xulrunner, so it is compatible with many of Firefox's extensions - it's actually written by the same guy who wrote StumpWM, which is a beautiful tiling window manager in common lisp.

Conkeror is a bit like the "emacs of web browsers" - it's basically entirely keyboard driven (you can however, and I often do, use the mouse, but the idea is that everything should be possible with the keyboard).

I'm pretty happy with it so far, though a few issues I've come across - for one, there is really not much documentation available beyond a very short tutorial the first time you launch Conkeror (and subsequent launches until you set a homepage). I spose that's not really a big problem, it's sort of self-documenting in the same way emacs is, so it's usually possible to find what you're after.

The second issue, which is probably the most painful, is that it's all done in a single thread (process), so launching some silly Java applets (like my stupid university recently moved their email system to) tends to steal the browser for a moment - on a slow internet connection (which mine is) this is not a very good thing.

forrestcupp
July 29th, 2011, 02:41 AM
Good to see the youngsters carry on about a mouse (I use a trackball now)

At one time .. there was NO SUCH THING as a mouse and everything was done from command line or using arrow keys .. or page up/page down and hitting enter.

But that was in ancient times in the era of the 8088 processor and PCDos.

Only APPLE had a mouse. That is why many USED Apple computers. (ease of use!)

What? I even had a mouse for my Commodore 64 to use in Geos. That was toward the end of the C64's life, though.

cgroza
July 29th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Right now I don't have a mouse. Lucky me that Unity and Vimperator makes things easy.