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Jad
March 4th, 2005, 03:54 PM
Imagine there's no patents,
It's easy if you try,
No lawyers around us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
developing in joy...

Imagine there's no lawsuits,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to fight or pay for,
No worries too,
Imagine all the people
hacking code in peace...

Imagine no copyrights,
I wonder if you can,
Nothing to support greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of geeks,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one

unknown source

Lynx
March 4th, 2005, 04:46 PM
the source is a clever person who adapted a great song by "A Perfect Circle". The original goes like this.


"Imagine"

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

(Imagine all the people sharing all the world)

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

jwb
March 4th, 2005, 04:48 PM
"All you need is GNU........
All you need is GNU....."

Wait..... don't rhyme.

"Hey, GNU....... don't make it bad.......
Take a sad license, and make it better....."

Nope, not catchy.

Maybe Skynryd?

"If I leave here tomorrow, would GNU still remember me?"

Hmmmmm..... that has possibilities.

Maybe from the fifties?

"Only GNU, can make this world seem right. Only GNU, can make the....."

Uh.... forgot the words.

The Who?

"GNU are you, GNU, GNU. GNU, GNU."

Repetitive.

OK, I like yours better.

WAIT!

ZEP!

"There's a lady who GNU, all that software she wrote, should be licensed in a G-P-L waaayyyy....."

No....... no.

Stupid songs.

What open source needs is more rhyming words, like train and rain and stuff.

jwb
March 4th, 2005, 04:51 PM
the source is a clever person who adapted a great song by "A Perfect Circle". The original goes like this.



Uh....... ever hear of John Lennon?

He was in some band...... with McCartney...... before Paul was in Wings. What was it?

Some little old band...... can't recall.......

jwb
March 4th, 2005, 04:53 PM
I KNOW, I KNOW.... he did it solo........

Still.....

Sheesh...... am I that old?

gylf
March 4th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Imagine there's no patents,
It's easy if you try,
No lawyers around us,


Reminds me of a quote by Lynal Hutz on The Simpsons:

Bart: Mr. Hutz when I grow up I want to be a lawyer just like you.
Hutz: Good for you, son. If there's one thing America needs, it's more lawyers. Can you imagine a world without lawyers?
[Hutz imagines a scene of people of all nationalities (plus Elvis) holding hands and dancing around in a circle under a rainbow]
Hutz: Argh. <shudders in disgust>

Zundfolge
March 4th, 2005, 06:02 PM
Imagine all the programers
dying of starvation
no jobs to pay them
no support for their dreams


Imagine all the people
stealing the hard work of others
while the best and brightest
have to work at McDonalds to survive

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/images/smilies/eusa_boohoo.gif


Open source food/shelter just doesn't exist folks ... and I will fight to the death to prevent the advance of communism that so many here (in the Linux community in general) seem to want.


Some of you guys need to toss out that well warn copy of Das Capital and go read Atlas Shrugged.


the source is a clever person who adapted a great song by "A Perfect Circle". The original goes like this.
GOD I feel old now #-o

http://www.cottageviews.com/album%20covers/John%20Lennon%20-%20Imagine.jpg

Jad
March 4th, 2005, 08:36 PM
Hey! I didn't know its that old!

bored2k
March 4th, 2005, 08:42 PM
Imagine all the programers
dying of starvation
no jobs to pay them
no support for their dreams


Imagine all the people
stealing the hard work of others
while the best and brightest
have to work at McDonalds to survive

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/images/smilies/eusa_boohoo.gif


Open source food/shelter just doesn't exist folks ... and I will fight to the death to prevent the advance of communism that so many here (in the Linux community in general) seem to want.


Some of you guys need to toss out that well warn copy of Das Capital and go read Atlas Shrugged.


GOD I feel old now #-o





ROFL ROFL


long liv the b34tL3s
--

good song by APC? lol ; Maynard has 0.0001 lyrical potential Lennon had back in .das day

jdodson
March 4th, 2005, 08:49 PM
Imagine all the programers
dying of starvation
no jobs to pay them
no support for their dreams


Imagine all the people
stealing the hard work of others
while the best and brightest
have to work at McDonalds to survive

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/images/smilies/eusa_boohoo.gif


Open source food/shelter just doesn't exist folks ... and I will fight to the death to prevent the advance of communism that so many here (in the Linux community in general) seem to want.


if i said open source and free software would not end some paying programming jobs i would be lying. but then again, who cares if an open source app overtakes a pay app and puts the pay app out of business. welcome to a pseduo-free market. however, open source is in our future and will change programming and computing and is already doing so. there will always be programmers, however the traditional jobs will change. when the car was invented people who sold horses did not have as much buisness and then had less buisness and so on until it was a nitch market. open source and free software is a reality that will continue to gain momentum. programmers can either change, like so many other people in industry have, or become irrelevant. with any shift in industry, there are jobs lost and jobs gained in another emerging market. hailing, "the end of the programmer" is far from reality. i think a change in the way business is programming is a better way to look at things.

if you hail from the good ol' US of A then open source has not been the sole cause of the loss of programming jobs. i would point my finger at the dot com greed boom. people were trying to get that dollar using completley stupid buisness practices. that pulled the rug from many programmers, though people don't preach the evils of the internet because companies axed thousands of jobs because they were too greedy. outsourcing is another loss of programmers in the states too. i think this one will explode and make programming careers in the states, less and less. open source might take a few jobs here and there as well, but companies such as intel, ibm and MANY others(such as my company) are hiring people to specifically extend open source apps to fit thier needs. this extension of open source software will not stop. so i would not say open source will be the killer of the programmer. but i do think it will change things for the betterment of everyone.

you can fight this "communism" or whatever you want to call it. but the stark reality is that this form of "communism" makes companies more money. just look at ibm or redhat or suse or any other company that claims gnu/linux saves or makes them money. my company thinks gnu/linux can save them millions upon millions, but i can't say specifically why because i signed a piece of paper saying i would not. so we are we taking "communism" to increase corporations? nope. open source is not communism, open source is community. the more community that shares and extends the large the whole gets. look up the term communism, it is far and away different from corporations making money off a community product.

kleeman
March 4th, 2005, 11:49 PM
I am a professional scientist and make a very nice income thank you.
The basis of science has always been the philosophy behind open source software:
Sharing knowledge always brings much greater gain than hiding it.
This idea goes way back to Newton and Galileo and has of course been immensely successful as a cultural movement. Communism has nothing much to do with this.

The reason someone pays me to do science is because science is
useful (very useful) to society. The same idea can work for software
I'm sure!

Ayn Rand (the author of Atlas Shrugged) was not a great intellectual
and her movement (the neoconservatives) are almost completely intellectually dishonest and self serving.

jdodson
March 5th, 2005, 12:01 AM
I am a professional scientist and make a very nice income thank you.
The basis of science has always been the philosophy behind open source software:
Sharing knowledge always brings much greater gain than hiding it.
This idea goes way back to Newton and Galileo and has of course been immensely successful as a cultural movement. Communism has nothing much to do with this.

The reason someone pays me to do science is because science is
useful (very useful) to society. The same idea can work for software
I'm sure!

Ayn Rand (the author of Atlas Shrugged) was not a great intellectual
and her movement (the neoconservatives) are almost completely intellectually dishonest and self serving.

hear, hear =D> =D>

Dylanby
March 5th, 2005, 12:24 AM
Under communism there's no individual property rights. People who release their work under the GPL or similar do so of their own free choice. The GPL is a form of copyright that would not be respected under communism. Individual effort, contribution, recognition, and choice all play a strong role in the free software "movement".

I'm sorry, but people who compare free software to communism have no clue. Free software has more in common with capitalism where personal production and profit are still possible.

Oh...I've read Ayn Rand, and being that I consider myself pro-reason & pro-individualist I could say that we share a lot of common ideals. What I find ironic is that those who publicly espouse her are usually quite dogmatic and selective in the meaning they derive from her work. They remind me of religious fundamentalists.

BWF89
March 5th, 2005, 12:37 AM
We listen to a song every Friday in English. Imagine was one of the songs our Liberal english teacher made us listen to. It was pretty good actually.

Jad
March 5th, 2005, 07:27 AM
in communism its a must to share, and its not allowed to make money more than others.

TravisNewman
March 5th, 2005, 02:55 PM
Ayn Rand's philosophy, in my opinion, is crap.

But I'm really not even sure how it applies.

Look at Mako, Daniel Stone, Jeff Waugh. They're all Open Source programmers, and surely Mark Shuttleworth is paying them enough so that they don't have to get a second job at McD's.

Look at Ben Goodger, the lead Firefox dev. he's employed by Google now.

When you made your claims I don't think you realized how far Open Source's influence goes. It's obvious that people can (and ARE) making money from open source. Just look at the many many companies that have turned Open Source in the past few years. Sun released a lot of stuff GPL, Novell bought out SuSE, made their own distribution, and really heavily started pushing Linux.

These companies are still there, so they're making money, AND they're giving back to the community. Some say that Sun and Novell were slowly dying before they GPL'd. But they're not dying anymore. Somehow, giving to the community made them more money.

It's not Ayn Rand's philosophy, it's not communism, it's smart capitalism.

jeremy
March 5th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Ayn Rand's philosophy, in my opinion, is crap.
Having read Atlas Shrugged, and despite in some ways having quite enjoyed it, I must say that I agree that Rands philosophy is crap. However, I do not feel that Rands utopia can be in any way likened to the M$ 'empire', my impression was that Happy Valley (I think that it what it was called) thrived due to hard work and mutual respect, and leaned heavily on an 'open source' atitude where people went around improving each others invention (up to this point all's well, but let us remember that the valley dwellers considered themselves the elite - as do all other fascists). Microfost's wealth, on the other hand, is built on cheating, stealing and stifling competition BAMN (by any means necessary). I cannot think of any field in which M$ has actually innovated.

As for some of the comments about communism and Marx's undoubtedly excellent writings, well... all I can say is... piffle.

TravisNewman
March 5th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Having read Atlas Shrugged, and despite in some ways having quite enjoyed it, I must say that I agree that Rands philosophy is crap. However, I do not feel that Rands utopia can be in any way likened to the M$ 'empire', my impression was that Happy Valley (I think that it what it was called) thrived due to hard work and mutual respect, and leaned heavily on an 'open source' atitude where people went around improving each others invention (up to this point all's well, but let us remember that the valley dwellers considered themselves the elite - as do all other fascists). Microfost's wealth, on the other hand, is built on cheating, stealing and stifling competition BAMN (by any means necessary). I cannot think of any field in which M$ has actually innovated.

As for some of the comments about communism and Marx's undoubtedly excellent writings, well... all I can say is... piffle.
Well, Ayn Rand's philosophy in a nutshell is that it's unethical to do something for someone unless you're getting something out of it. Not necessarily money, or other payment, but if you want to help someone for other reasons to your benefit, even if that benefit is just your enjoyment of helping people (from what I understand), then it's ok.

kleeman
March 5th, 2005, 06:39 PM
/rant

This self interested garbage really gets to me as it can be interpreted anyway you like.

So if I pay my taxes then the government spends the money to improve my community and so I benefit. Ergo taxes should be increased because my self interest is increased! This doesn't sound like Ayn Rand which just goes to show the shallowness and contradictory nature of the self interest argument. In reality these people are denying that any collective action is ethical which is so much nonsense. I agree the collective can be oppressive (witness Stalin's Russia or recently Guantanamo Bay and detention without trial) but to claim individualism is inherently superior to the collective is superficial in the extreme.

The real agenda here of neoconservatives is to defend the power of the entrenched monopolists such as M$. They are in fact being primarily financed from these sources and see nothing wrong with this since the monopolists are successful and so by their (neoconservatives) reckoning correct as well! This kind of convoluted self-interested rubbish was well analysed by J.K. Galbraith in "the Age of Affluence"

/unrant

gylf
March 5th, 2005, 09:53 PM
The basis of science has always been the philosophy behind open source software:
Sharing knowledge always brings much greater gain than hiding it.
This idea goes way back to Newton and Galileo and has of course been immensely successful as a cultural movement.

Many of the forefathers of the US Constitution would have agreed with you.
The original US copyright act of 1790 protected ONLY books, maps, and charts. Newspapers, plays, music, etc could be copied. The copying of foreign works was encouraged. It protected authors for 14 years, plus another 14 year renewal if the author was still alive. That length of time was necessary as it took a long time to print and distribute literature in the 18th century.

Compare that to modern US copyright law: the entire life of the author + 90 years.
And this is only if you consider computer code to be protected by copyright law... many recent court cases have allowed things like the Amazon "one-click shopping" button to be protected by patent law, allowing exclusive use for 20 years + extensions.

Zundfolge
March 5th, 2005, 11:59 PM
Well, Ayn Rand's philosophy in a nutshell is that it's unethical to do something for someone unless you're getting something out of it.

That's just flat wrong ... that's like saying that the central thesis of Christian philosophy is about eating bread and drinking wine.


Ayn Rand's philosophy is that it is wrong to force someone to do something for someone else without compensation and it is evil to expect others to do things for you without some form of compensation. Its based on the idea that freedom and liberty can only truly exist when people are free to pursue their own interests and are not enslaved by obligations the unproductive.

That doesn't mean no charity and no caring for your fellow man or just looking out for #1, it means no forced charity ... no coerced egalitarianism ... no sharing the fruits of your mind and your labor at gunpoint.

It means that the powers that be can't say "your work is useful therefore it belongs to everyone else and that schmuck over there who goofs off all the time and/or is an idiot gets to benefit from your hard work as much as you do (and actually a little more since he didn't have to work for it in the first place)".

I'm all for GNU and Open source as long as its voluntary ... eliminating copyright and patent laws is NOT voluntary and is nothing more then government complicity in theft.

If GNU proves to be the better solution in a truly free and open market then that's wonderful, but using government to force one person to freely give of the work of their mind or their back is slavery and just simply immoral, unethical and evil.


My response was to the goofy Utopian idea that if we did away with patents that the world would be a better place, not to the concept of free GNU licensing.


And if you don't like Rand there's always Freidrich Hayek, Thomas Sowell or Walter E Williams. :)

kleeman
March 6th, 2005, 12:39 AM
OK then lets take this crackpot philosophy of Rand to its logical (and absurd) end:

1) I don't like my (hard earned) tax dollars being spent to fund the US Army in Iraq. Can I get a refund from the neocons? I don't think so.

2) I am funded to do environmental research. The oil industry (who pay taxes) doesn't like my research because it threatens their revenue stream by showing that greenhouse warming is caused by the oil industries products. Thus the Oil industry is being effectively coerced to fund my research. Can they get a refund? I don't think so.

The obvious consequence of these arguments is that no taxation is possible in Rand's philosophy because it implies coercion. Is a no taxation world a good one? Of course not because we all have communal responsibilities. Do right wing republicans who claim to support Rand believe in abolishing taxation? Some do but most want to keep the US military even if it is funded partially by pacifists.

All this shows that these right wing "intellectuals" cannot be taken seriously. They are taken "seriously" by neocons because the philosophy offers a convenient smokescreen for defending monopolists who pay the neocons their salary.

poofyhairguy
March 6th, 2005, 04:44 AM
Unfortunately in "the States", it seems that success is only measured by how much money you make. So economic might makes right. When the country was first founded, religious extremists (such as puritans, quackers) valued hard work more than anything. Your success was determined by how much you were respected in your community because of your work. Then prohibition brought quick money and a new facination with wealth and its been downhill from there.

What I think is interesting is how many common (as in not rich) Americans support allowing Big Companies and rich people do almost whatever they want (and avoid all the taxes they want). These people seem to buy the American dream hook, line and sinker- they support laws favoring the ******* elite "because one day I might become the ******* elite." They constantly believe the tripe that as long as they work hard, they too will one day party like Billy G. (note: I think B. G. is actually a halfway decent person- he has given up most of his ill gained money- but there a LOT of really bad rich people). In truth illegal mexicans work harder in a week than the average rich white person works in a year, but the rich white people stay on top because they are part of a social network that allows them to get jobs from their rich friends (or in the case of the president and his employment before the whitehouse- from daddy's rich friends). And they sit and there country clubs and spend billions on marketing -"join the Republicans- the new majority"- to continue to trap the common man in that ******** they call an American dream.

Sorry for the rant.....John Lennon always brings out the fire in me.....

kassetra
March 6th, 2005, 05:56 AM
Sorry for the rant.....John Lennon always brings out the fire in me.....

Either that or you might want to switch to decaf. ;)

poofyhairguy
March 6th, 2005, 08:10 AM
Either that or you might want to switch to decaf. ;)

lol

EDIT: True.

Chris Ferrell
March 6th, 2005, 12:18 PM
Don't confuse FSF/GNU extremists with Open Source.

http://linux.omnipotent.net/article.php?article_id=12503

Someone like Richard Stallman does have a political agenda that goes beyond software, so be careful when you start throwing out words like "neo-con" because it can come back to haunt you.

Chris Ferrell
March 6th, 2005, 12:27 PM
Advocating abolition of copyrights is a political agenda that takes away rights from producers. I reject that.

machiner
March 6th, 2005, 02:37 PM
It's a good thing I'm in a Sonny Rollins "Grand Street" kind of a mood, else I might have to lay in deep to all this Ayn Rand nonesense.

Debates like this are best left to those living large outside of someone's back pocket, and having their house in order.

I get pretty insulted when Homo Sapien is described as having a "civilized" characteristic. Treading the abused snake of this diatribe leads nowhere and only gives merit to simpletons like Rand.

Including the likes of Rand and some further expose within a post entitled "Imagine" scares me no end.