The creator of Sabayon asks is the apocolypse of FLOSS near?

[handy]

Following is a statements by Fabio Erculiani, which I've excerpted from his blog:


You all know that I like to summarize my thinking in a few sentences. I don’t really like very long boring blog posts, and microblogging is already eating my will.

GRUB2, I’ve never understood the idiocy behind using bash scripts in bootloader configuration/setup tools. The wannabe GRand Unified Bootloder isn’t unified, grand even after a decade. And one of the sane points of GRUB1, a sane (yet could have been improved) simple configuration file that users were able to understand, was just thrown to the sharks. Same for having to regenerate grub.cfg from scratch at each kernel install/removal, this is really looking for troubles. Congrats!

KDE4, they planned to dominate the world with their outstanding ideas (they were, at the time) and they ended up having a crashy fishy Desktop Environment that is giving big headaches to downstream distributors at every minor release, with configuration, ABI, API changes, yeah. And we, as a distro, are as usual taking all the blame for things breaking so often. Hello KDE upstream, just test out your stuff a bit more before feeding the crowd with it. Oh, and of couse I have to mention the super KDE fanboys anecdote I keep hearing at every new release: KDE 4.(x+1) will be much better than KDE 4.x (and will blow GNOME 3 away!). The part in the brackets is a recent addition.

GNOME3, yeah, sooner (more likely) or later we will have to switch to it, since GNOME2 is not developed anymore, as you may have happily seen. But when this will happen, I am sure, many of our users will get promptly upset and will start to load our Bugzilla and Forum with WTFs (at a very high WTF/s rate). Many people (the majority?) just want Desktop icons which they can click, some sort of taskbar and a systray where the annoying **** is placed. It’s been like that for 15 years, why do these bright minds called “Desktop Environment developers” just pretend to know what users want and what users are not FOR SURE suitable for? On a Desktop (not Mobile nor Handheld) system. WTF? Can’t you guys stop pretending to hold the whole knowledge and sit down with us, simple human beings? And perhaps shut the **** up for a few minutes and just listen to what users want? Hasn’t the recent KDE3->KDE4 migration taught anything useful?

I’m done for today, but for sure, it’s not all about GRUB2, KDE4 and GNOME3. Everybody seems to have gone crazy, desperately trying to be revolutionary while people just want simple things that work without too much annoyance.

Update: when I wrote this blog post it was quite late here, and I feel really guilty for having forgotten Mozilla and its products, Chromium versioning, and many other examples of my theory. Is the Apocalypse of FLOSS near?
_________

(My highlighting)

http://lxnay.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/open-source-projects-are-gone-crazy-period/

[ratcheer]

Every bit of it makes sense to me.

Tim

[3Miro]

Gnome and KDE are in trouble, but this is hardly the end of FOSS. XFCE is better and more stable then ever (haven't tried LXDE lately).

I am not sure what the deal is with KDE (stopped following for some time), but Gnome 3 does come with Classic interface, which is under active development and will remain so in the foreseeable future (despite earlier statements).

Things are in a flux, but they will settle in a year or two. In short: problems are there, but this is hardly the end of FOSS.

[Bachstelze]

Many people (the majority?) just want Desktop icons which they can click, some sort of taskbar and a systray where the annoying **** is placed.

Then use XFCE or Fluxbox or Enlightenment or... Don't like what people are doing? Simple: don't use it and stop whining like a spoiled brat, you're ridiculous.

[Alwimo]

There are DEs out there for a variety of tastes.

FLOSS isn't going away anytime soon.

[Madspyman]

I use openbox it's nice. The Apocalypse is just here for mainstream Floss that's trying to sell itself to people who want to switch to a Mac from Windows. They obviously think the only reason people switch to Mac is the way it looks. They're putting all their eggs in the wrong basket.

[christoph411]

Holy rage! But regardless I agree with almost everything he said... :-\"
Yeah, fragmentation sucks. :KS

[Bandit]

Thanks for the post Handy.

He has some very good points. Seems so many idiots are trying to make a name for themself and tearing away what so many like myself are using linux for. Speaking for myself I am not looking for another freaking windows. I dont want a replacement. I want stability and scalability. I dont know whats with this flashy new GRUB2. Why the heck was GRUB1 ever replaced? It worked fine, it was stable and easy to modify without a understanding of rocket science /sarcasm.. KDE is pretty, sometimes its stable when its stable. But you change one single thing and it becomes unstable as my wife.
GNOME3 and Unity both are currently less then impressive and the majority agrees. I admire Gnome team for working on something new, but completely stopping development on Gnome2 and throwing a half finished product in our face is uncalled for. Gnome2 should still be pushed while Gnome3 is given time to mature.(AT LEAST A YEAR OR TWO). Unity shouldn't be default at the moment. I admire Ubuntu devs for trying to unscrew the GNOME3 dilemma, but Gnome2 should still be default through this next LTS letting everyone work on improving Unity before forcing it on everyone.

IMHO, XFCE devs look like the only sane people out at the moment. Guess what I am installing on my netbook right now??

[GSF1200S]

Gnome and KDE are in trouble, but this is hardly the end of FOSS. XFCE is better and more stable then ever (haven't tried LXDE lately).

I am not sure what the deal is with KDE (stopped following for some time), but Gnome 3 does come with Classic interface, which is under active development and will remain so in the foreseeable future (despite earlier statements).

Things are in a flux, but they will settle in a year or two. In short: problems are there, but this is hardly the end of FOSS.

+1

While I think KDE might finally be getting its legs back, Gnome 3 looks really bad for Gnome. That said, XFCE is absolutely fantastic as a desktop environment (its the ONLY DE that really works well on dual-head separate X as well). Highly recommend..

I agree with most of what the OP said, but I think like anything else, other projects will come up to replace failing ones (instead of a FLOSS apocalypse occurring). I would not be surprised in a few years if XFCE and KDE were the top desktop environments, with LXDE taking the role of what XFCE used to be..

[JDShu]

Typical geek's rant.

[BrokenKingpin]

I pretty much agree with everything in that post. He was clearly upset, but I can understand the frustration. At this point I have switched to Xfce as I just want a normal desktop system.

There is a lot of change happening at once, and it is frustrating because it seems like change for the sake of change.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

I think that post, especially once Fabio reaches KDE, misses something important: as someone who works on a desktop operating system, he is more of a “desktop environment developer” than upstream, because his product is reaching end users directly. Perhaps, if we want this to succeed, distributors should try be more involved with the upstreams they depend on (at least to understand them) instead of deriding them.
And, if those upstreams are not matching your operating system's philosophy, stop shipping them, because it is your product, and it is your job to make it work.

[DoktorSeven]

Everyone that complains about KDE isn't aware that KDE x.y where y is less than 3 or so shouldn't be used as a stable desktop. This was the case with KDE3 and earlier versions too, not just 4.

KDE4 past 4.3 has been absolutely amazing. I really wish KDE wouldn't label their early releases as .0, .1 and so on, but it's just the way they seem to do things.

[Bandit]

I cant fathom for the likes of me why Ubuntu just simply didnt move to XFCE and just make contributions to it. :confused:

its GTK..
its easier to Compile then Gnome..
its very similar to Gnome..
its stable..
its loaded with features..
its fast..


I am sure I can come up with more reasons.. But those 6 are good enough for me..

[radar920]

I don't know about an apocalypse but but i do feel a little anxiety around all the changes to the design.

[GSF1200S]

I cant fathom for the likes of me why Ubuntu just simply didnt move to XFCE and just make contributions to it. :confused:

its GTK..
its easier to Compile then Gnome..
its very similar to Gnome..
its stable..
its loaded with features..
its fast..


I am sure I can come up with more reasons.. But those 6 are good enough for me..

There is already an Ubuntu for that: Xubuntu ;)

Unfortunately, Xubuntu seems to receive very little attention. I agree though; Xubuntu is the reason I found gmusicbrowser (and shimmer desktop layout)- little things like that make for a nice operating system.

[handy]

@GSF1200S: I just checked your trusted computing sig' reference to see if it was the Ross Anderson page.

I used to post that in my sig' years ago too. Powerful info' there. (As you can see, I've gone a little more environmental sig' wise these days.) =;

I bought his book on security due to that page of his. Unfortunately the book was more practical than what I was hoping for. (The only philosophy was intended for people who provide online security for banks & other big fish.

[Dustin2128]

I hate all this "change for the sake of change" idiocy that seems to have infected the FOSS community of late. Case in point, Grub 2, GNOME 3, firefox 4+, and so much else. I liked GNOME 2 for customizability, and simplicity, and have found a replacement in xfce. I just stuck with grub 1- even got LILO on a few of my machines, contrary to popular belief, it is still developed. I use firefox 5 because it's still the best free browser out there, but I detest recent developments. The end of FLOSS? Not even. FLOSS developers shooting themselves in the foot? Yes.

I personally like KDE 4 and find it an improvement over 3.5 in most areas, minus resource usage- would not have made it an example.

[handy]

ixnay, was venting.

He has to put up with all of these changes that keep coming down & the problems that come with them. He's also having to deal with more dramatic changes recently (KDE 4.* & Gnomes 3, Shell) & they keep coming. [edit:] Not just from those prime targets there are so many more projects that for some reason think that if they can come up with revolutionary changes that they will become better - more popular!!!) /edit

He understandably questions the validity of many of these changes.

From his perspective he is seeing change for change sake that is also being released too soon (to make it worse) to the public, bringing the great variety of bugs that they do due to that.

"He", has to try to do what he can do with the packages that come down re. stability, compatibility, support, the end user desires & more... That, is a tough course to navigate.

I'd spit it from time to time too under such circumstances. He has to deal with the buggy stuff coming down, package it up into Sabayon as best he can (his reputation is on the line) then serve it to the ever critical unwashed masses.

His closing statement re. is this the apocalypse of FLOSS is just part of the vent. He knows better than most of us what is going on; as it is what he does.

[boydrice]

Then use XFCE or Fluxbox or Enlightenment or... Don't like what people are doing? Simple: don't use it and stop whining like a spoiled brat, you're ridiculous.

I think you are missing the point that the complaints aren't just about the DE itself but the added complexity to package it and more bugs introduced from upstream to fix.

[mips]

I'm gonna agree with Fabio on this one.

Stuff doesn't just work like it use to, to many hoops to jump through to make things work.

[kvv_1986]

Yep, this year is a very bad year for Linux. It may lead to better things in the long run, but it is a definite low.

I mean, you don't even hear those "2012 is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop!!1111!" anymore :P

[lucazade]

The creator of Sabayon is not new to this kind of bleeding-edge statements, I don't fully agree with him althought there are some good points.
To me it is only a way to speak about Sabayon and catch the attention.

[Starlight]

To me, it seems like he's saying "I don't like Gnome 3, therefore it sucks!" Personally, as a user (instead of a developer) I think that Gnome 3 is really nice to use, and it's a really big step forward. It's hard to explain, but when I use Gnome 3 it seems to me that everything fits together very well, and working with it (launching apps, switching between them, switching workspaces, etc) gives the impression of a single, continuous flow, because of the way all transitions are animated. Of course, not everyone likes it, that's why there are many different DEs to choose from.

[handy]

The creator of Sabayon is not new to this kind of bleeding-edge statements, I don't fully agree with him althought there are some good points.
To me it is only a way to speak about Sabayon and catch the attention.

What did he win for Sabayon out of that lot. He put himself on the same side as the distro users, which is certainly nice to see.

The way many seem to be seeing Canonical these days is that Canonical is upstream making decisions that change the user interface (in particular) in ways that so many do not see the need for, which makes it easy to see as rightly or wrongly being for the benefit of Canonical (business) & not for the benefit of the users.

We ask are there behind the scenes business arrangements that have motivated the radical changes to the Ubuntu desktop for example?

When much of the user base doesn't like something, as a provider, do you keep giving it to them, telling them that they will get used to it & that it will eventually be much better than it is now.

Sounds a bit like what Fabio was saying about KDE & the fan boyz to me.

[darkdawn]

The creator of Sabayon is not new to this kind of bleeding-edge statements, I don't fully agree with him althought there are some good points.
To me it is only a way to speak about Sabayon and catch the attention.

First of all Sabayon is a well done distro that doesn't need to catch attention in this way!!

And i agree with him at some points but in the same time i disagree!!
It seems like every DE Developer is trying to change the way the user interacts with the computer without actually asking the users if they like it or not, the other problem is treating a Desktop like its an ipad or a phone, optimizing every aspect of the desktop to accommodate a touchscreen user!!
And now i disagree with him, cause change is good, but people hate change, cause they don't know if anything better exists. once there is something better, you start seeing people wondering how they could ever lived without it!! :P
my 2 cents !

[handy]

To me, it seems like he's saying "I don't like Gnome 3, therefore it sucks!" Personally, as a user (instead of a developer) I think that Gnome 3 is really nice to use, and it's a really big step forward. It's hard to explain, but when I use Gnome 3 it seems to me that everything fits together very well, and working with it (launching apps, switching between them, switching workspaces, etc) gives the impression of a single, continuous flow, because of the way all transitions are animated. Of course, not everyone likes it, that's why there are many different DEs to choose from.

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying that there is & has been an unprecedented amount of radical change going on in Linux for a while now, that in general hasn't been bringing great benefit to the distro users & has been making life very difficult for the distro makers, due to the lack of sufficient testing before release.

The bugs, incompatibilities & other difficulties that the users have to deal with get blamed on the distro makers.

Whereas with Ubuntu, we have a slightly different situation as Canonical make changes that they deem to be for the best. Which puts them in the same category as the dev's upstream.

[Starlight]

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying that there is & has been an unprecedented amount of radical change going on in Linux for a while now, that in general hasn't been bringing great benefit to the distro users & has been making life very difficult for the distro makers, due to the lack of sufficient testing before release.

The bugs, incompatibilities & other difficulties that the users have to deal with get blamed on the distro makers.

Whereas with Ubuntu, we have a slightly different situation as Canonical make changes that they deem to be for the best. Which puts them in the same category as the dev's upstream.

Hmm... but he was ranting at Gnome 3 just because the devs decided to change it into something different than the traditional taskbar+systray+desktop with icons, not because of bugs or anything like that.

[handy]

Hmm... but he was ranting at Gnome 3 just because the devs decided to change it into something different than the traditional taskbar+systray+desktop with icons, not because of bugs or anything like that.

When I read what he said, I think that he stuck it to KDE far more than he did to Gnome.

You may be a little more sensitive being one who likes Gnome 3. I couldn't care less personally, about Gnome or KDE as I don't use them & haven't for years now. :)

Though to a point I agree with you, he doesn't like Gnome 3, KDE 4, & radical upgrades to a pile of other app's & tools that as he sees it don't really bring anything of great value to the overall Linux users' experience. Often the software goes backwards, which is an enormous waste of energy for all concerned.

[Starlight]

When I read what he said, I think that he stuck it to KDE far more than he did to Gnome.

You may be a little more sensitive being one who likes Gnome 3. I couldn't care less personally, about Gnome or KDE as I don't use them & haven't for years now. :)

Though to a point I agree with you, he doesn't like Gnome 3, KDE 4, & radical upgrades to a pile of other app's & tools that as he sees it don't really bring anything of great value to the overall Linux users' experience. Often the software goes backwards, which is an enormous waste of energy for all concerned.

I actually like KDE too :P but he was criticizing KDE because of technical stuff that matters for developers, and since I'm not a developer, I have no idea if he was right or not :)

[Grenage]

I think that most of the gripes come from the main menu, which is something I think Microsoft got right. The combination of a search window and the list gives you the best of both worlds, with no real drawbacks. While there have been a lot of rants over Gnome 3, I'm not sure it will play out badly in the long run. People rarely like drastic change, but once they are used to it, they will often never go back to the old system.

In my opinion Gnome 3 was the right decision, simply due to the way the mainstream desktops are evolving. If the interface didn't change, converts might be less likely to accept it. Time will tell.

[handy]

I actually like KDE too :P but he was criticizing KDE because of technical stuff that matters for developers, and since I'm not a developer, I have no idea if he was right or not :)

There would be plenty of dev's that do see what he wrote & he would know that. It certainly does him no good in any way shape or form, to stand up & say a pile of stuff that has no credibility.

All he would be doing is devaluing himself & to some extent Sabayon, which from my experience is certainly something for him to be very proud of.

[Starlight]

There would be plenty of dev's that do see what he wrote & he would know that. It certainly does him no good in any way shape or form, to stand up & say a pile of stuff that has no credibility.

All he would be doing is devaluing himself & to some extent Sabayon, which from my experience is certainly something for him to be very proud of.

Well, so maybe his criticism of KDE makes sense. :) But I still think his rant about Gnome 3 doesn't make sense. Of course Gnome 3 may be for some reason not very easy to use for him, but he's making it seem like Gnome 3 is somehow objectively hard to use, which isn't true.

[lucazade]

First of all Sabayon is a well done distro that doesn't need to catch attention in this way!!


Who said is not good? :)
The apocalypse style is only to generate hype, same things could be said in a better way.

[el_koraco]

yeah, a GRUB that automatically detects other operating systems. What a PITA.

[BrokenKingpin]

yeah, a GRUB that automatically detects other operating systems. What a PITA.
The configuration really is a mess though.

[neu5eeCh]

He never mentioned XFCE. XFCE would seem to answer all his prayers but he just couldn't quit whining about Gnome & KDE...

[nmaster]

i've never used KDE, but i totally agree about GRUB2. I loved having that simple menu file to edit. I still haven't really learned how GRUB2 works, although i probably will when i need to fix something ;)

i somewhat agree about the gnome issue... i'm going to need to upgrade my 10.10 install in the next year and i've been concerned about unity and gnome shell. i think that the shell will grow on me as it gets developed, but the interface should never be something to worry about getting in the way.

in any case, he's obvi just blowing off some steam. everyone should just give him a break.

[Dragonbite]

Wha, ... no Unity-bashing? ;)

I don't see this as the "end"... I see this as "growing pains" and FOSS will grow out of this.

If it grows out of it well, it can mean big things for its future. If it struggles too much, then it may have to work a little harder to get going again. Either way, it is still going to be here.

[forrestcupp]

Then use XFCE or Fluxbox or Enlightenment or... Don't like what people are doing? Simple: don't use it and stop whining like a spoiled brat, you're ridiculous.That's the perfect solution for now. But it's only a matter of time before everyone else follows suit, too.



And, if those upstreams are not matching your operating system's philosophy, stop shipping them, because it is your product, and it is your job to make it work.Anyone who stops shipping KDE and Gnome is going to lose most of their user base.

[Bachstelze]

That's the perfect solution for now. But it's only a matter of time before everyone else follows suit, too.

I don't think so. As long as people want a traditional desktop, someone will make one.

[reyfer]

Well, if we take the REAL and LITERAL meaning of the greek word Apocalypse, which means "Revelation", then yes, FLOSS is about to be revealed to a lot more people so the guy is right :):):P

[8_Bit]

I find the complaints about the UI really unjustified.

Both KDE and Gnome 3 are highly, HIGHLY customizable. They can be whatever you want them to.

They can be turned into the old style within minutes. Here's an example (http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html).

Gnome 3 is fully CSS- and JavaScript- modifable. The power this gives you is enormous. You can make it look however you want. CSS and JavaScript are very easy to learn, but if you can't be bothered, you can bet that other people will eventually make the plugin you want. Within a year or two, there will be so many themes and add-ons for Gnome Shell it will make sticking with Gnome 2 seem plain silly.

The developers have given you the power and the choice to do what you want with your desktop. That hasn't changed with Gnome 3.

edit: The complaints about bugs and stability definitely are justified though. I get a lot of crashing and slowdown on KDE 4. Have not had any issues with Gnome 3 however.

[Madspyman]

Well, if we take the REAL and LITERAL meaning of the greek word Apocalypse, which means "Revelation", then yes, FLOSS is about to be revealed to a lot more people so the guy is right :):):P

Hmm... than we definitely want to combine those terms together.

FLOSSPOCOLYPSE! I like it.

[BrokenKingpin]

Gnome 3 is fully CSS- and JavaScript- modifable. The power this gives you is enormous. You can make it look however you want. CSS and JavaScript are very easy to learn, but if you can't be bothered, you can bet that other people will eventually make the plugin you want. Within a year or two, there will be so many themes and add-ons for Gnome Shell it will make sticking with Gnome 2 seem plain silly.

Some of this configuration needs to be exposed through GUI tools, not everyone wants to learn Java Script to move an icon on their panel. You cannot customize Gnome3 at all (aside from the wallpaper) unless you dive into a config file. That is not acceptable for the end user.

[Dragonbite]

Some of this configuration needs to be exposed through GUI tools, not everyone wants to learn Java Script to move an icon on their panel. You cannot customize Gnome3 at all (aside from the wallpaper) unless you dive into a config file. That is not acceptable for the end user.

You mean other than gnome-tweak and using Alt + right-click to edit the panel almost like you do with Gnome 2?

Is it as customizable as Gnome 2? No, and I wasn't involved enough to be able to tell you if Gnome 2 was as configurable when it was first launched.

[christoph411]

Some of this configuration needs to be exposed through GUI tools, not everyone wants to learn Java Script to move an icon on their panel. You cannot customize Gnome3 at all (aside from the wallpaper) unless you dive into a config file. That is not acceptable for the end user.

^This

I was actually just about to say that! But you beat me to it. :)

[DZ*]

Good thing about Gnome and KDE releases is that they are asynchronous. I'm happy with KDE as it is now, but when version 5 comes out, I fully expect it to be a massive bugfest (if past releases are of any indication). Then I'll switch to a Gnome-3 based DE which I expect to become usable by then ;)

[Bandit]

We ask are there behind the scenes business arrangements that have motivated the radical changes to the Ubuntu desktop for example?

When much of the user base doesn't like something, as a provider, do you keep giving it to them, telling them that they will get used to it & that it will eventually be much better than it is now.

Excellent question. A little insight from Canonical (more personally Mark) would truly warm the soul some. If many users knew the meaning behind the madness then most may not mind the changes. But crazy changes for no reason can lead a person to disbelief in a company quick.

[Bandit]

Good thing about Gnome and KDE releases is that they are asynchronous. I'm happy with KDE as it is now, but when version 5 comes out, I fully expect it to be a massive bugfest (if past releases are of any indication). Then I'll switch to a Gnome-3 based DE which I expect to become usable by then ;)

hehe.. I have used it since 1.something. Every time a new release is put out its utter chaos from version X.0.0 to X.3.0, been down that road with 2, 3 and 4.. And always soon as they get it stable and running great.. Its time for a new version.. /sigh :rolleyes:

[handy]

Hmm... than we definitely want to combine those terms together.

FLOSSPOCOLYPSE! I like it.

I prefer aflossalypse, it appeals to my sense of cleanliness. :)

[handy]

hehe.. I have used it since 1.something. Every time a new release is put out its utter chaos from version X.0.0 to X.3.0, been down that road with 2, 3 and 4.. And always soon as they get it stable and running great.. Its time for a new version.. /sigh :rolleyes:

Which plays to Xfce's strength, as the Xfce releases are not often & traditionally each release brings more refinement, making configuration easier & more intelligent, without ever taking anything away from the rock solid stability & nimbleness that Xfce is renowned for.

As KDE & Gnome get heavier & more complex the relative difference in weight between the two heavyweight DEs & Xfce will become increasingly more obvious. Most especially for those running netbooks.

[doas777]

Ok, heres my take:

Dude is talking about desktop linux for PCs. I understand what he is saying, and he makes valid points. DEs however are not the future of floss.

it seems like he is comparing things to the current PC Desktop criteria have been prevalent since '93. Most new Linux DEs I see these days were designed more for mobile-convertibility and touchscreen input. Heck, even Windows8 is being designed with that in mind. if Linux can dominate in embedded/mobile, then that is a great boost to all open source.

To me, the biggest worry of apocalypse in FLOSS, is the borging of Sun by Oracle, and Novell's financial woes. I really hope Attachmate does right by them and the community.
Apples rise to power is equally alarming, as they seem quite set on eliminating OSS from the playing field.

[handy]

Ok, heres my take:

Dude is talking about desktop linux for PCs. I understand what he is saying, and he makes valid points. DEs however are not the future of floss.

The option of choosing to use a DE suitable for a desktop computer or a netbook/hand-held would be a nice compromise, whether that happens during the boot process or at installation time. The world of bums on seats office work is not going to disappear because of the current trend of people being attracted to smaller more portable hardware.



it seems like he is comparing things to the current PC Desktop criteria have been prevalent since '93. Most new Linux DEs I see these days were designed more for mobile-convertibility and touchscreen input. Heck, even Windows8 is being designed with that in mind. if Linux can dominate in embedded/mobile, then that is a great boost to all open source.

Linux can't dominate a market unless hardware manufacturers take to using Linux. Android has worked on the hand-held market. As I previously queried - has Canonical made the current changes to the Ubuntu interface due to behind the scenes business arrangements re. netbooks & pads? Canonical would certainly be trying to attract such business arrangements.



To me, the biggest worry of apocalypse in FLOSS, is the borging of Sun by Oracle, and Novell's financial woes. I really hope Attachmate does right by them and the community.
Apples rise to power is equally alarming, as they seem quite set on eliminating OSS from the playing field.

Apple are just another ruthless corporation. They are playing in the big league where any chink seen (or the possibility to create one) in anyone's armour is exploited to the fullest - for both profit & survival. Tough game to play, not my idea of fun.

Apple can't dominate OSS, it just can't happen, the world is too big & Apple are really only playing in a small segment of it.

[doas777]

The option of choosing to use a DE suitable for a desktop computer or a netbook/hand-held would be a nice compromise, whether that happens during the boot process or at installation time. The world of bums on seats office work is not going to disappear because of the current trend of people being attracted to smaller more portable hardware.

Now don't get me wrong, I don;t want everything to go mobile; I'm just comming to accept that I am being left behind. I'm a developer, and spend all day in front of a giant dual-head workhorse of a machine, and I can't imagine doing anything serious in a tiny screen with clumbsy touch inputs you have to look at with each keystroke.
between Intels announcement that they will no longer be focusing on desktop-class chips, and windows8 going all html5, I'm seeing mobile start to really impinge on both my view of computing utopia, but also my long term career prospects, unless I keep with the times.

[handy]

@doas777: Ah! Now I know where you are coming from. :)

[LowSky]

Now don't get me wrong, I don;t want everything to go mobile; I'm just comming to accept that I am being left behind. I'm a developer, and spend all day in front of a giant dual-head workhorse of a machine, and I can't imagine doing anything serious in a tiny screen with clumbsy touch inputs you have to look at with each keystroke.
between Intels announcement that they will no longer be focusing on desktop-class chips, and windows8 going all html5, I'm seeing mobile start to really impinge on both my view of computing utopia, but also my long term career prospects, unless I keep with the times.

I really believe that tablet computing is really just a format computers will have to fit in tow. Real work will still have to be done on interfaces like keyboards and screens. Sure desktops and laptops will die out to some degree, but large screens and real interfaces for typing and inputting data will still exist. one day we will be able to use our phone as a computer that can be plugged into a larger monitor and then use a mouse and keyboard to do "real work". Oh wait we can do that now!

[DZ*]

"death of desktop computer" != "death of desktop environment"

Bulky towers will die, but people would still want to look at their stuff on a large screen. Once a mobile is hooked to a TV, there is a need in some kind of DE. As far as I can tell, TVs only get bigger and touching a TV screen is not gonna cut it ;)

[doas777]

see, what I'm really waiting for is well, either holographic interfaces, or LCARS. LCARS would make me smile.

[Dustin2128]

I agree with you doas- I've tried text editing on mobile phones before. Even with a hard keyboard, barley doable. On something like an iphone? I don't see how any work would be done. Most mobile I can go is a netbook, which in fact strikes me as a nice compromise between the desktop and the phone. Although maybe I'm just being left behind- I've seen people type text messages around 50WPM on a numpad pseudo-keyboard- nearly 80 on a hard qwerty.

[KiwiNZ]

I have been hearing the predictions of the demise of FLOSS almost as long as I have been hearing "19**/ 20** is the year of the Linux Desktop". I do not believe in either.

[Dragonbite]

You know when the Apocolypse of FLOSS is going to be? Right after I finally get a job working with it, that's when!](*,):-#

I just have that kind of luck!

[wolfen69]

I have been hearing the predictions of the demise of FLOSS almost as long as I have been hearing "19**/ 20** is the year of the Linux Desktop". I do not believe in either.

Well said.

Just because someone posts something that is opinion, means very little to me. It's one of many trillions of opinions and thoughts. I try spending most of my time enjoying what I do like, instead of what I don't like.

I'm sure there's something out there for all of us. Let's just enjoy what we use, instead of arguing. There's a lot of great OS's out there.

[jeffathehutt]

Well said.

Just because someone posts something that is opinion, means very little to me. It's one of many trillions of opinions and thoughts. I try spending most of my time enjoying what I do like, instead of what I don't like.

I'm sure there's something out there for all of us. Let's just enjoy what we use, instead of arguing. There's a lot of great OS's out there.

My thoughts exactly! :) I have never understood why people have to argue over an operating system. Just use what works for you. :P

[handy]

I don't think Fabio was being serious with the Apocalypse bit, he's far from being that stupid. It is his blog & he would have some regulars there that would have learned to appreciate his particular style of communication.

We can throw out extreme phrases from time to time in an effort to make a point that is not a literal translation of the words themselves.

We can also exaggerate things to make a point when we have been through a long intense session of battling with them (years!) as they fill up so much of our time & mind focus.

This situation would be compounded by the fact that you are getting complaints from people that have no idea of the behind the scenes effort you have been going through to make their experience as good as you possibly can, through research, testing, looking for incompatibilities between everything, then dumping some things, patching others, & doing everything you can to smooth out the bugs that come down from up, for your distro's users & usually inside some form of time constraints which is another way to ramp up stress.

[el_koraco]

Now don't get me wrong, I don;t want everything to go mobile;

Of curse everything is not going mobile. You're just seeing more integration with "traditional" and mobile computing devices. That's all that's gonna happen.

I don't understand how this marketing scheme of "the destkop doesn't matter" has caught on so strong.

[handy]

Hopefully "they" will get over it soon.

I can understand their motivation somewhat; they don't want to miss any bus that may take them to their favourite destination = profit.

Combine that with the fact that most marketroids haven't got a clue when it comes to technical stuff as it is not the way their brains are generally built.

As far as Canonical is concerned, they are understandably trying to crack it where it counts as they need to create a commercially successful business before the funds run out.

[el_koraco]

The mobile market is the only hardware-software distributing market where Microsoft doesn't have the upper hand in ever aspect. So, Apple, Google and others are keen on having people believe that this is the route of the future, because it's the only market they can not only compete in, but dominate.

Now show a few tablets to journalists, tell them a few rosy stories, and you have a "revolution". I know how journalists operate, I was one for five years. If you give them a meme that's easy to follow, you're on your way. It's much easier to spout PR propaganda than do some research. I understand that, but why is everyone on Linux forums accepting this kind of inverted logic is beyond me.

[handy]

As you know, not everyone is accepting of that logic el_koraco.

I think that the most likely candidates re. the acceptance are the young guns, as that is how people are made.

It takes us a while to have a chance of becoming more discriminating & to identify what our personal values are.

After which we can to a greater or lesser degree say damn the fashion & whatever other social & peer group pressures may exist.

Some people become more independent of these pressures during their life than others, due to a complex set of reasons.

[wafflesausage]

The word "Apocalypse" conjures imagery of a melodramatic, cataclysmic end to something, but what is happening now seems to more of a slump if anything; "Apocalypse" is a very poor word choice. Granted the most popular distribution is now using some strange tablet-like UI, and many others are more or less following the same behaviour, but that doesn't necessarily mean that open source software is going to disappear off of the planet, rather it is in a transitional, adaptive stage. Will some users be pissed at the new designs? Of course. Will they stop using free software as a direct result? Perhaps, but another thing to keep in mind is that many projects, including propeitary ones, are going through a sort of experimental phase. Besides, as long as there're people who want to program free software, there will always be free software. This guy is clearly panicking over nothing,

[handy]

The word "Apocalypse" conjures imagery of a melodramatic, cataclysmic end to something, but what is happening now seems to more of a slump if anything; "Apocalypse" is a very poor word choice. Granted the most popular distribution is now using some strange tablet-like UI, and many others are more or less following the same behaviour, but that doesn't necessarily mean that open source software is going to disappear off of the planet, rather it is in a transitional, adaptive stage. Will some users be pissed at the new designs? Of course. Will they stop using free software as a direct result? Perhaps, but another thing to keep in mind is that many projects, including propeitary ones, are going through a sort of experimental phase. Besides, as long as there're people who want to program free software, there will always be free software. This guy is clearly panicking over nothing,

Fabio isn't panicking at all. He's pissed off about having to do so much extra work due to the creative indulgences of the dev's upstream. He is seeing far too much non-productive radical change being made for no real practical reason. It is just change for change's sake.

He has to put it all together (as I'm sure you would have read earlier in the thread) in his distro Sabayon for a very critical (aren't we all) set of users.

The users complain & he is caught - meat in the sandwich = no control on what comes down & no way of educating his users about what he has to deal with & the amount of time he spends doing it so as to give them the best possible experience.

(I've said the same thing multiple times in multiple ways in this thread already.)

[Tristam Green]

Then use XFCE or Fluxbox or Enlightenment or... Don't like what people are doing? Simple: don't use it and stop whining like a spoiled brat, you're ridiculous.

But this is the INTERNET.

[mkendall]

FLOSSPOCOLYPSE! I like it.

That anything like GNUmageddon?

[mkendall]

I have been hearing the predictions of the demise of FLOSS almost as long as I have been hearing "19**/ 20** is the year of the Linux Desktop". I do not believe in either.

Yes. We know.

[forrestcupp]

Some of this configuration needs to be exposed through GUI tools, not everyone wants to learn Java Script to move an icon on their panel. You cannot customize Gnome3 at all (aside from the wallpaper) unless you dive into a config file. That is not acceptable for the end user.It won't be long before hundreds of people will have GUIs out there. Creating a GUI to manipulate config files is a very easy thing to do. I'm pretty impressed with what I've seen of Gnome 3 and Gnome Shell. I like where it's going much more than Unity.


Now don't get me wrong, I don;t want everything to go mobile; I'm just comming to accept that I am being left behind. I'm a developer, and spend all day in front of a giant dual-head workhorse of a machine, and I can't imagine doing anything serious in a tiny screen with clumbsy touch inputs you have to look at with each keystroke.
between Intels announcement that they will no longer be focusing on desktop-class chips, and windows8 going all html5, I'm seeing mobile start to really impinge on both my view of computing utopia, but also my long term career prospects, unless I keep with the times.Amen. It's heart breaking, isn't it? To keep up with the times, I've decided to shift my programming interests from computer apps to Android apps. I only wish you could program for Android in Visual Studio. I love that IDE, and now I don't have a lot of use for it.


I don't think Fabio was being serious with the Apocalypse bit, he's far from being that stupid. It is his blog & he would have some regulars there that would have learned to appreciate his particular style of communication.
+1

I've had a soft spot in my heart for Sabayon Linux for a long time. I have a lot of respect for Fabio. He was just venting, and if you can look past his extremes, you'll see he has some legitimate points from a distro developer's perspective. People use extremes to get their point across.

[Dragonbite]

Amen. It's heart breaking, isn't it? To keep up with the times, I've decided to shift my programming interests from computer apps to Android apps. I only wish you could program for Android in Visual Studio. I love that IDE, and now I don't have a lot of use for it.

Have you looked at any of the Mono Visual Studio plug-ins and Mono-Droid? Seems kinda a round-about way to do it, but considering Xamarin (http://xamarin.com/) is hoping to make money from it all it they may be interested in listening to possible customers.

I wonder if Xamarin Studio is going to be a Monodevelop fork, or something completely new?

[forrestcupp]

Have you looked at any of the Mono Visual Studio plug-ins and Mono-Droid? Seems kinda a round-about way to do it, but considering Xamarin (http://xamarin.com/) is hoping to make money from it all it they may be interested in listening to possible customers.

I wonder if Xamarin Studio is going to be a Monodevelop fork, or something completely new?
Cool. Thanks for the info. That looks pretty interesting, and I signed up. I have some C# and .Net experience, so if I could use that in Android, it might make the transition a little easier. We'll have to wait and see what they come up with.

[Quadunit404]

I have been hearing the predictions of the demise of FLOSS almost as long as I have been hearing "19**/ 20** is the year of the Linux Desktop". I do not believe in either.

KiwiNZ IS CREDIT TO TEAM.

[wafflesausage]

It really sounds to me as if the guy's stirring up controversy to bring attention to certain things that he isn't okay with (unless he's actually paranoid enough to believe that the end of "FLOSS" is upon us, which I highly doubt he does) - this is very different from an "apocalypse". To me, it just sounds like he's being hyperbolic.

[seenthelite]

The problem is that so much of the software being released is full of bugs and released without adequate testing. This also happens with many distro's that release to a time schedule.
This obviously creates problems for many people including those maintaining and releasing linux distro's.
Sabayon releases when it is ready not to a time schedule.
I agree with what he said.

[ScionicSpectre]

While I quite enjoy all the work the guys in GNOME and KDE are doing, I know it's not great for everyone, especially people who just want the same old thing. Linux is great because it provides options- you can have the newest stuff available and still have an interface you loved from 20 years ago. We still offer quite a better deal than the top-selling operating systems do.

However, I think it would be best if the 'new' Linux community that wants to do their own thing and the 'old' Linux guys who don't like the new stuff either started working together on their own environment that suits their needs, rather than relying on the official GNOME/KDE projects.

I think Elementary might be a good look at an opportunity to embrace the newest toolkits and native technologies and retain a bit of that flavor that many users have become accustomed to.

If you just want the two panels and don't care much for compositing, use fallback mode in GNOME 3 or use Xfce. There is still plenty of choice out there for new and old users alike. Linux was never about one desktop to unite us all, and I don't think it should ever be. Multiculturalism is good, especially in the way we think about usability on the desktop.

I think it's time the community became involved like in the good old days. We need to stop constantly dividing the users from the developers as we have been.

[Superkoop]

When it comes to developing technology, I'm all for a mindset of change for the sake of change. If there wasn't a ton of change constantly going on, then there would be no actual desire for what is being made.
Sure, lots of people are all about stability and same old same old, but honestly some things should die and other things need to rise to replace them.

Technology is a change driven market, and unless it is constantly changing, people will lose interest and no longer support it. Also, if there isn't change, it's unlikely developers will actually discover a better way of doing something. It's a trial and error process.
Devs may hate it, but work is rarely easy in any business.

End of FOSS? Nope.

[Quadunit404]

the problem is that so much of the software being released is full of bugs and released without adequate testing. This also happens with many distro's that release to a time schedule.
This obviously creates problems for many people including those maintaining and releasing linux distro's.

+1

[kevdog]

Is it just me, but the older I get and the more I use Linux, the more simple I want my experience to be. I'm a big fan of Gnome but haven't used it for years. KDE?? -- haven't looked at it since 3.5. I currently switching between OpenBox and Enlightenment. I'm probably an old bird that's not representative of the average user, so I'd easily be passed up by any of these new marketeers looking for new ways to reinvent the wheel. Things always seem to get more complex, but rarely do I actually find they are truly "better".

[handy]

It really sounds to me as if the guy's stirring up controversy to bring attention to certain things that he isn't okay with (unless he's actually paranoid enough to believe that the end of "FLOSS" is upon us, which I highly doubt he does) - this is very different from an "apocalypse". To me, it just sounds like he's being hyperbolic.

Have you actually read & understood all of the posts in this thread?

[handy]

...

I think it's time the community became involved like in the good old days. We need to stop constantly dividing the users from the developers as we have been.

Who is responsible for the divide between the user & the developer?????

[handy]

When it comes to developing technology, I'm all for a mindset of change for the sake of change. If there wasn't a ton of change constantly going on, then there would be no actual desire for what is being made.

Well, you & me won't ever see eye to eye, as I can't possibly comprehend the consumer mentality that is based on the never ending consumption of worlds finite natural resources.

[el_koraco]

What, Gnome 3 is more harmful to the birdies than Gnome 2?

[forrestcupp]

What, Gnome 3 is more harmful to the birdies than Gnome 2?

Lol.

[MasterNetra]

An Apocalypse (Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis; "lifting of the veil" or "revelation") is a disclosure of something hidden from the majority of mankind in an era dominated by falsehood and misconception, i.e. the veil to be lifted.

On that note. Maybe.