General Thunderstorm headaches

[del_diablo]

Well, most of us most have experienced this one: You sit there, and use your desktop, and then suddenly you hear a really lound noise, and there is large light flashes. It turns out that it is a thunderstorm, spewing out thunder towards the ground, like some angry god attempting to kill off humanities electronics and trees.
And then one must unplug all expensive devices like TV, computer, router, etc......

Here is a short question:
What would it take to secure a electrical network against a bolt of lightning hitting the high voltage cables somewhere?

I would image the connection to the powerline to each house must be underground, and some isolation, to avoid the lightning hitting a houses internal power cables.
But beyond that, I am clueless.......

[juancarlospaco]

Remember that the thunder goes from the floor to the cloud, besides people think its in reverse...

[cgroza]

Remember that the thunder goes from the floor to the cloud, besides people think its in reverse...
The human eye is not able to see that part. High speed cameras are struggling to do it. I think this is nte reason of people misinformation.

[del_diablo]

I thought the white/blueish thunderbolts was the air heating up due the massive amounts of electrons moving down that made the "look" of a thunderbolt?
Or are we just talking how it find its way down?

[cgroza]

I am sure wikipedia can clear it for all of us.

[KiwiNZ]

Remember that the thunder goes from the floor to the cloud, besides people think its in reverse...

Thunder goes in all directions, it is the sound generated by the rapid change in heat and pressure causing the air to expand rapidly. This results in a shock wave similar to a sonic boom generated by an Aircraft.

[Bandit]

well, most of us most have experienced this one: You sit there, and use your desktop, and then suddenly you hear a really lound noise, and there is large light flashes. It turns out that it is a thunderstorm, spewing out thunder towards the ground, like some angry god attempting to kill off humanities electronics and trees.
And then one must unplug all expensive devices like tv, computer, router, etc......

Here is a short question:
What would it take to secure a electrical network against a bolt of lightning hitting the high voltage cables somewhere?

I would image the connection to the powerline to each house must be underground, and some isolation, to avoid the lightning hitting a houses internal power cables.
But beyond that, i am clueless.......


apc ups

[KiwiNZ]

Lightning travels from polarity to polarity be it cloud to ground, cloud to cloud or of course cloud to aircraft.

[oldsoundguy]

Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning rod. That will protect most small (such as a house or barn) from being hit.
Power companies have lots of safety built in, but they still get nailed.
Your cable/telecom service and your HOUSE are supposed to be grounded sufficiently to protect the occupants (by LAW).
A UPS with a quick acting fusable link will protect things such computers and AV equipment. Refrigerators/freezers need at LEAST a quality surge protector.
And your choice of where you live also makes a BIG difference.

[juancarlospaco]

Kiwi, we are talking about the traditional thunder that people most commonly refers to... i think,
not hitting to aircraft or clouds, it dont mess your expensive devices like TV, computer, etc :)

Whats a lightning rod?, you are just raising the floor more close to the cloud, so thunder ignores you.

[KiwiNZ]

Kiwi, we are talking about the traditional thunder that people most commonly refers to... i think,
not hitting to aircraft or clouds, it dont mess your expensive devices like TV, computer, etc :)

Whats a lightning rod?, you are just raising the floor more close to the cloud, so thunder ignores you.

Thunder will not hurt your TV or computer unless the shock wave causes sufficient movement to tip them off the table etc.

Lightning striking your home or a ground strike of enough intensity to track to your devices can cause damage if these are not protected.

[SoftwareExplorer]

How I would do it: I would have multiple lighting rods. Lighting rods are taller than what they are protecting and grounded. The whole idea of a lightning rod is to make it so that the lighting rod is the least path of resistance. That way, if lighting was going to strike near your house it would strike the lighting rod and go through the rod instead of hitting the nearest power pole and causing a huge surge in electrical "pressure" (volts), which could travel through wiring and zap electronics.

In addition to the rods, I would have at least three battery banks. There would be a charger that would be surge protected (in reality it's surge suppressed, surge protectors aren't perfect). At any time, one bank would be being charged. One would be being drawn down by the computers. And one would be fully charged. When a bank got low, you would connect the computers to the full bank and disconnect the low bank so there would be no interruption in power. Then you would disconnect the bank that was charging (and by now full) and start charging the low bank.

The switches would be specifically designed to have very large clearance between disconnected contacts. They would be designed so that when disconnected, contacts would be closer to a ground probe than their partner contact. This way, in surge, if any arcing occurred, it would go to the ground.

Of course, each battery bank would be contained in its own fire and heat proof container that would isolate it from the other banks and your house. That way, if a bank took a direct hit and caught on fire, it wouldn't burn the other banks you are depending on.

Of course, this system could be enhanced with more banks, an indoor generator with an exhaust system carefully designed not to attract lighting, and lighting arrestors all over the place.

Of course, the question is "what in the world would require this kind of protection?"

No, I did not just think of this. I've been perfecting the idea of this system for a while now.

[Bandit]

Kiwi, we are talking about the traditional thunder that people most commonly refers to... i think,
not hitting to aircraft or clouds, it dont mess your expensive devices like TV, computer, etc :)

Whats a lightning rod?, you are just raising the floor more close to the cloud, so thunder ignores you.

Thunder is the noise Air makes when it colides back into its self. This event happens when lighting super heats air and then the air cools back quickly. The sound it makes is Thunder. Thunder doesnt hurt anything. But lighting, now that cooks. :)

[del_diablo]

apc ups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APC_Smart-UPS
Something like that?
How would having a gigantic battery located in my cellar help me when the lightning strikes a nearby highvoltage power cable? I would need to be home, and i would be needing to have a switch somewhere.
And it would still not fix the problem... because the Ethernet cables I get internet via is still made of copper...... Which means that my "internet box" would not be safe.

[Grenage]

Well, most of us most have experienced this one: You sit there, and use your desktop, and then suddenly you hear a really lound noise, and there is large light flashes. It turns out that it is a thunderstorm, spewing out thunder towards the ground, like some angry god attempting to kill off humanities electronics and trees.
And then one must unplug all expensive devices like TV, computer, router, etc......

Here is a short question:
What would it take to secure a electrical network against a bolt of lightning hitting the high voltage cables somewhere?

I would image the connection to the powerline to each house must be underground, and some isolation, to avoid the lightning hitting a houses internal power cables.
But beyond that, I am clueless.......

I'd personally just use surge protectors; it's rarely a direct hit that destroys electronics. Most probably don't guarantee against lightning damage, but some (more expensive ones) probably do. Many come with damage insurance, so if the TV explodes and sets your cat on fire, you can buy a new TV and cat.

[uRock]

Thunder is the sound which goes in all directions, however its creator, aka lighting, can go from the ground up or the sky down or whichever way atmospheric energy takes it.

Lighting rods do work, when properly installed, which includes using the proper grounding rod which goes into the ground a few feet, but not right beside the ground from you electrical box(power meter).

[wojox]

I just called my Momma and she still says thunder is just the angels bowling. :p


apc ups

I lived in South West Florida for many years and this is what saved me many times.

[mips]

...and then suddenly you hear a really lound noise, and there is large light flashes.

In this universe I live in the laws of physics are slightly different. The flashes come first followed by the sound and you can thumbsuck how far away it is by timing the difference between the flash & the sound.

[del_diablo]

In this universe I live in the laws of physics are slightly different. The flashes come first followed by the sound and you can thumbsuck how far away it is by timing the difference between the flash & the sound.

Well, unless you are looking out of the window, or sitting in the night darkness, you won't be staring at the light.
Basically:
1. Sits glued to something
2. And what was that noise?!
3. Oh great..... thunder in the horizon!

[oldsoundguy]

Just remember that thunder is the result of lightning and it is the lightning that does the damage, not the thunder.

(thunder is caused by air rushing in to fill the void when lightning passes through the atmosphere and ionizes it.)(it is a sonic boom of sorts.)

[PartisanEntity]

As far as I know, you only need to unplug everything if your house is not grounded.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I use serge protectors. I am not talking about the surge protection power strips. Those really don't do much for lightening.

I have never had lightning striking the power lines or the ground near the house do any damage. I have had lightning damage a modem and router when the energy came through the Internet connection. When the ISP came out to replace their modem, they discovered that the distribution box the ISP has that is feeding Internet to several of my neighbors was damaged as well. Fortunately, I was planning to replace the wireless G router with a wireless N router anyway.

[Bandit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APC_Smart-UPS
Something like that?
How would having a gigantic battery located in my cellar help me when the lightning strikes a nearby highvoltage power cable? I would need to be home, and i would be needing to have a switch somewhere.
And it would still not fix the problem... because the Ethernet cables I get internet via is still made of copper...... Which means that my "internet box" would not be safe.

I miss read the post to at the start, but in regards to your PC many APCs Smart-UPS like I have also have plugs for your Ethernet cables and some even still have plugs for phone jacks to keep those isolated. But in regards to your PC, if your place is like mine, every time I hear thunder the power goes out for a few seconds then back on. Which is what I though the thread was about at first, the Smart-UPS will keep a smooth flow of power to the computer preventing any electrical harm.

[Bandit]

As far as I know, you only need to unplug everything if your house is not grounded.

Here in the US like were I live we get so many thunderstorms a week its common place to see one almost everyday for a week. And they can get very powerful with huge amount of lighting. Plus the lighting can get so strong, even if it strikes 250ft from the house, its still strong enough to shock you if your standing near any metal objects. And if the lighting is less then 100ft, its strong enough to hit some devices like telephone and such despite proper grounds. :(

A friend of mine was standing at his back door a few summers ago and lighting struck 75ft from the door in his backyard. He happen to have his hand on the metal frame of the storm-glass-door and the discharge was strong enough it shattered the bone in his wrist. He had to have it in a cast for like 6 weeks. Thats how bad it gets.

[uRock]

Here in the US like were I live we get so many thunderstorms a week its common place to see one almost everyday for a week. And they can get very powerful with huge amount of lighting. Plus the lighting can get so strong, even if it strikes 250ft from the house, its still strong enough to shock you if your standing near any metal objects. And if the lighting is less then 100ft, its strong enough to hit some devices like telephone and such despite proper grounds. :(

My location in the states is lucky to see more than 10 T-storms a year.

I have seen a neighbor carried out on a stretcher, because lightning hit her antenna and went through her TV set. This happened when I lived on the east coast.

[Bandit]

My location in the states is lucky to see more than 10 T-storms a year.

I have seen a neighbor carried out on a stretcher, because lightning hit her antenna and went through her TV set. This happened when I lived on the east coast.

LOL here in northern Mississippi we see about 10 a week.. You ever noticed the radar image I have going in Conky just for that reason. Seldom is it ever not showing thunderstorms hehe.. :)

[uRock]

LOL here in northern Mississippi we see about 10 a week.. You ever noticed the radar image I have going in Conky just for that reason. Seldom is it ever not showing thunderstorms hehe.. :)

Yup, I miss the daily storms and the once in a blue moon hurricanes in North Carolina.

[lisati]

Donner und blitzen!

How did you guys know that I was waiting at a bus stop yesterday when a thunder storm was kind enough to come by?

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=133319

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Here in the US like were I live we get so many thunderstorms a week its common place to see one almost everyday for a week. And they can get very powerful with huge amount of lighting.

I lived on the US Gulf Coast for a few years. It seemed like there were two seasons, summer and winter, with rain every day in between. When the seasons changed it seemed to rain every day starting at about 3 to 5 PM. When the thunder storms occurred at night, the lightning would light up the sky and you could see outside as if it were daytime. The thunder was so loud that the ground was shaking.

[walt.smith1960]

It ain't just computers. Today most electrical devices have fairly fragile electronic components that are pretty easy to fry. It also ain't just thunderstorms. A car hits an electric pole and voila, power surge. A friend lost a bunch of stuff to such an occurrence. He was a well qualified electronics guy that was able to prove a surge that took out a bunch of electronics was the fault of the public utility and they paid for replacements. I don't recall if he ever knew what caused it.

I'd be tempted by a whole-house surge suppressor. They're not as expensive as I'd guessed but the installation probably ain't cheap.
http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=whole+house+surge+suppressor&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I doubt it'd be a do-it-yourself project for Joe homeowner.

[Frogs Hair]

Some mother boards have surge protection and of course it is a good idea to have a high quality power strip with its own breaker and surge protector to plug your electronics into .

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I'd be tempted by a whole-house surge suppressor. They're not as expensive as I'd guessed but the installation probably ain't cheap.
http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=whole+house+surge+suppressor&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I doubt it'd be a do-it-yourself project for Joe homeowner.

The whole-house surge protector is what I have. When you have an electrician install it, you are paying for more than the part and the electrician's labor. In most US cities, the electrician will have to get permits before starting work and when they are done the work has to be inspected which increases the cost. Those permits and inspections aren't free.

[Dustin2128]

All the big stuff in my house, TV, desktops, laptops, etc. is plugged into multiple surge protectors, so not too worried there. The most annoying thing is that where I live, we have horribly unreliable electricity- feel like I'm living in a third world country with blackouts at least once a week. Considering investing in an uninterruptible power supply for at least some of my electronics.

[del_diablo]

I miss read the post to at the start, but in regards to your PC many APCs Smart-UPS like I have also have plugs for your Ethernet cables and some even still have plugs for phone jacks to keep those isolated. But in regards to your PC, if your place is like mine, every time I hear thunder the power goes out for a few seconds then back on. Which is what I though the thread was about at first, the Smart-UPS will keep a smooth flow of power to the computer preventing any electrical harm.

Wait, the light goes initially during a thunderstorm? For me, that sounds completely alien and 1950ish.
Why would the power go down? It is going from a power plant, in the high voltage cables, between many nodes, to a box in your house that converts voltage, and then into your computer.
Even with a direct strike of thunder straight towards a high voltage cable, the worst that would happen is that the light bulbs could burst, but 2-3 second blackout?
Why do the blackouts happen?

Contrast: The only blackouts i have ever experienced is during winter, when the snow gets heavy enough, sometimes the high voltage cables get either hit by a tree falling to the side, or it gets weighted down and something happens.

[juancarlospaco]

Make a giant faraday jail...

[westom1]

I have seen a neighbor carried out on a stretcher, because lightning hit her antenna and went through her TV set. This happened when I lived on the east coast.
That would never happen had her house been wired according to code. Antennas are required to be earthed. So a lightning strike goes to earth via that dedicated wired from antenna to ground.

Then the antenna lead must also be earthed where it enters the building; to the same earth ground used by AC electric and telephone. Another path to earth that means energy is not inside the building.

Code only required earthing sufficient for human safety. Informed consumers upgrade earthing to both meet and exceed post 1990 code. Code is only about human safety. Earthing for transistor safety means every wire inside every cable connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Then humans have even greater safety. And electronics work without damage during every thunderstorm.

All electronics contain serious protection. Your concern is a rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that might overwhelm appliance superior protection. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Or it goes hunting for earth ground destructively via household appliances. Only the homeowner makes that decision.

Earthing must exist for many reasons. For example, one homeowner ignored light bulbs changing intensity when major appliances power cycled. His earth ground was missing. Eventually a defective wire inside the pole transformer failed. Due to no earth ground, electricity used his gas meter to obtain ground. Fortunately nobody was home when the house exploded.

Code defines earthing that must exist for human safety. Direct earthing (cable TV, satellite dish) or earthing via a 'whole house' protector (AC electric, telephone) means transistor safety. Protection is never provided by any magic box. Protection is always and only about where energy dissipates. Destructively inside the building. Or harmlessly outside in single point earth ground.

[uRock]

That would never happen had her house been wired according to code. Antennas are required to be earthed. So a lightning strike goes to earth via that dedicated wired from antenna to ground.

Then the antenna lead must also be earthed where it enters the building; to the same earth ground used by AC electric and telephone. Another path to earth that means energy is not inside the building.

Code only required earthing sufficient for human safety. Informed consumers upgrade earthing to both meet and exceed post 1990 code. Code is only about human safety. Earthing for transistor safety means every wire inside every cable connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Then humans have even greater safety. And electronics work without damage during every thunderstorm.

All electronics contain serious protection. You concern is the rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that might overwhelm appliance superior protection. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Or it goes hunting for earth ground destructively via household appliances. Only the homeowner makes that decision.

Earthing must exist for many reasons. For example, one homeowner ignored light bulbs changing intensity when major appliances power cycled. His earth ground was missing. Eventually a defective wire inside the pole transformer failed. Due to no earth ground, electricity used his gas meter to obtain ground. Fortunately nobody was home when the house exploded.

Code defines earthing that must exist for human safety. Direct earthing (cable TV, satellite dish) or earthing via a 'whole house' protector (AC electric, telephone) means transistor safety. Protection is never provided by any magic box. Protection is always and only about where energy dissipates. Destructively inside the building. Or harmlessly outside in single point earth ground.

The house was built in the 1920s. I would never expect lightning to go straight into the ground. Though all things natural follow the path of least resistance, the overload of whatever megawatts is coming from the lightning bolt will also flow through the other paths as well.

[westom1]

The house was built in the 1920s. I would never expect lightning to go straight into the ground. Though all things natural follow the path of least resistance, ... First, resistance is futile. ... Sorry. Wrong thread. Impedance is important; not resistance.

A surge is still seeking the same earth ground. 1) If it cannot obtain earth via the low impedance connection, then why would it seek earth via less conductive paths? 2) If the connection to earth was as described, then any other current paths are made irrelevant by superior protection already inside every appliance. 3) Single point earthing further makes those alternate paths less conductive; less desirable. 4) Even separation between earthing and an appliance further increases protection.

Resistance is about wire thickness. Wire thickness is mostly irrelevant. Impedance is about wire length. Therefore increased separation between an earthed surge and an appliance further increases appliance protection.

Superior solutions for surge protection means no wiring changes inside a 1920 wired house. But means upgrading the earthing (outside) to both meet and exceed post 1990 requirements. It can be installed easily in any building - 1920 or 2010 vintage. And it was required for that antenna long before TVs even had transistors.

Her injuries were directly traceable to human failure.

[Bandit]

The whole-house surge protector is what I have. When you have an electrician install it, you are paying for more than the part and the electrician's labor. In most US cities, the electrician will have to get permits before starting work and when they are done the work has to be inspected which increases the cost. Those permits and inspections aren't free.
Haha.. I am the one who wired my Dads house almost 20 years ago when we built it. Every light switch, outlet, breaker box and all at age 15. I am sure they would trip out.. :)

[freebeer]

I use serge protectors.

Good plan. You never know when those roving gangs of tailors will show up. Best be prepared. :p

[oldsoundguy]

In the US, many of the power providers will install a whole house surge protector and along with that grant a replacement for anything that blows after install. But they charge for the install and your monthly rate goes up to pay for that "insurance".

What most do not understand is that more damage happens to electronics equipment with "brown out" conditions (low voltage) than from surges. Hence a quality UPS for critical electronics. (and a good UPS has built in surge protection as well.)

[uRock]

First, resistance is futile. ... Sorry. Wrong thread. I am sorry for posting in the wrong thread.:(

I know the difference between impedance, capacitance, resistance and all the other happy non-layman's terms coined in electrical circuits. "Path of least resistance" is a term used by lightning experts in a few of the documentaries I have seen, as well as by professors in my electronics and physics classes.

Things to consider;

The house was built in the 1920s.

The lady lived alone and was more than 70 years old. (I do not think she was an electrical engineer, nor physicist.)

The TV had sat unused for years, since her husband had died in the early 80s.

BTW, All I can say to your building codes is, :lolflag: My house was completely rewired and codes ignored and the building inspector approved every bit of the work even though it was completely different from the prints which had been approved by the Fire Department.

NLSI's statistics tell me that the current safety measures aren't trust worthy. http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lls/nlsi_annual_usa_losses.htm

I have shorted many circuits and watched as the the 110 arced all over the circuit before the breaker tripped. Some of these appliances even had the grounding prong, which didn't seem to help much.

I do not trust these low voltage appliances to protect me from a 30,000 to 300,000 amp lightning bolt should the ground where their grounding lead is installed be too dry to receive the current. Not all storms involve rain and a dry ground doesn't conduct electricity.

[coffee412]

There was a very good study performed a few years ago as to why lightning takes a particular path. The findings indicated that there is a initial electron flow that travels up towards the cloud in a storm that basically completes a path to ground. There are typically more than one electron transfer going on as the cloud increases its negative voltage potential. The strongest path will take the lightning down to ground.

Lightning does not have to hit directly for a surge to occur that damages most equipment. The energy from the lightning strike to ground can generate a voltage potential to wires in the area. Therefore the power companies do install fuses inline that trigger on spikes in power. However, These are designed mostly to save the transformers.

If your serious about protecting your equipment a UPS is the best savor of them all. A UPS is equiped with a vary large pass thru transformer and capacitors. These filter the power and protect against surges, spikes, power outage. However, the cost of the batteries should be figured in as they last on average 3 years.

Storms are kinda killer where I live in Indiana, USA.

[westom1]

There was a very good study performed a few years ago as to why lightning takes a particular path.
You are confusing construction of a lightning conductor (plasma) with actual lightning current. A conductor takes milliseconds to construct (and can be photographed). The actual surge current in done in microseconds (obviously cannot be photographed).

Since nearby lightning is so destructive, then every nearby car radio, TV, wrist watch, and cell phone is destroyed. Reality. None are damaged. Fields from nearby strikes are so trivial as to be made irrelevant by protection inside electronics. Lightning damage is always about a current incoming and outgoing through the victim.

Example: lighting was connected to earth via bulding's lightning rod and ground wire. Only four feet away from that wire (and maybe 20,000 amps) was an IBM PC. Clearly the PC was destroyed. Reality. The PC did not even blink. Those destructive EM fields are wild speculation claimed by even ignoring numbers.

If a UPS does protection, then manufacturer spec numbers were posted that claim that protection. Any protection that might exist inside a UPS is already done better inside electronics. Why? Some of the 'dirtiest' power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode. Power so 'dirity' as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. That same 'dirty' power is also ideal for all electronics. Because protection routinely inside electronics is so robust. UPS manufacturer specifications make protection claims that are near zero.

Be concerned about transients such as current from direct lightning strikes that can ovewhelm protection inside all appliances. No UPS claims protection from typically destructive transients. But again, read the numbers. Even power strips claim better protection.

[Bandit]

Good plan. You never know when those roving gangs of tailors will show up. Best be prepared. :p

LOL serge.. go go spell wrecker..

[mips]

BTW, All I can say to your building codes is, :lolflag:

From what I've seen on TV I would have to agree with you. Even a certified US installation would not pass the grade here.