vista/linux comparison

[amunimanghi]

Hey

Has anyone noticed how vista looks a lot like linux. My desktop already has a lot of stuff that vista will 'introduce'. Also, internet explorer 7. Can you say 'firefox copy'? These are just my opinions but it seems soo true. Any thoughts?

[DigitalDuality]

My thoughts.

All software and OS companies/communities copy and/or improve the functionality of other software out there.

The End.

[curuxz]

Your right amun, its a total rip off of linux and mac ideas, but then again win95 was rip off of mac, its not like microsoft have EVER had an original GUI or anything for that matter.

From the IE 7 which rips of firefox to such a high level Im suprised firefox cant sue
Powershell which is based on the Unix command system
New graphics ripping of mac os X
I could go on but it just angers me that so many people are still fooled into buying windows for non-window specific uses eg offices, small businesses etc.

[mostwanted]

Hey

Has anyone noticed how vista looks a lot like linux. My desktop already has a lot of stuff that vista will 'introduce'. Also, internet explorer 7. Can you say 'firefox copy'? These are just my opinions but it seems soo true. Any thoughts?

I'm actually extremely glad that Microsoft decided to up themselves on the new version of IE. IE users are sheep and there's no way the great majority of them were gonna switch to a proper browser anyway, so it's nice to see Microsoft support CSS more thoroughly and alpha transparency on PNG images, so that web designers can finally forget about IE when they need to make the slightest semi-advanced layout.

And most Linux tools are direct copies of proprietary UNIX tools - I don't hear no complaints here? Everyone "rips off" the best ideas from everyone else; it's called evolution, get over it.

[rickyjones]

I don't think the original Apple Macintosh was an original GUI either - it was based on what Xerox (I think) was working on at the time for Windowed interfaces. In fact, here's a wikipedia link about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface

Most companies borrow and build on ideas from others - it's how they keep moving and keep competing. Opera has tabs before firefox - why isn't Opera suing firefox? Because Firefox "did it better" and more people use firefox now.

As for the actual comparison, I'll have an opinion when Vista comes out. Until then I'll continue using Windows for my games, and dual booting on my laptop.

-Richard

[Lord Illidan]

I agree. Let's wait until Vista comes out, not just in its beta form. It's better to be fair, even if MS can be unfair at times.

[G Morgan]

To be honest how does IE7 rip off Firefox. The interfaces are totally different (MS's biggest mistake, it will confuse loads of users), the RSS icon was due to an agreement on international standards between Mozilla, Opera and MS and tabs can hardly be considered a Firefox invention.

Anyway to make an Ubuntu/Vista comparison. The recommendation for Vista is 1GB ram, a pixel shader 2.0 graphics card with at least 128MB of ram (so Geforce 6800 maybe 6600) and 1.6GHZ processor IIRC. Anyone know what the minimum spec for dapper with XGL is so we compare like for like. My benchmarks all went up from Breezy to Dapper but I haven't tried XGL yet.

[K.Mandla]

Anyone know what the minimum spec for dapper with XGL is so we compare like for like.
You can get away with XGL with far, far less than Vista will require. I've run an XGL desktop on a five-year-old 64Mb Nvidia card, and that was at 1600x1200. No stutter either, even when spinning the cube.

But to keep on topic, I don't think Microsoft has much of a track record for creativity. In my opinion, they're top-notch when it comes to marketing, but a bottom-feeder when it comes to innovation. As a result I don't look to them for anything new, and in that sense, they have yet to disappoint. :rolleyes:

Be that as it may, most folks could care less what OS they use to check their e-mail or search the Web for pr0n. And so if they stick with Windows ... that's fine. Such is life.

[G Morgan]

I kind of guessed that it was a lower spec. I've installed it just 20 minutes ago. It works fine except I don't know how to get compiz running from the begining. No matter I've added a launcher for it on the panel.

Anyway my spec is similar to the MS recommended one except I have a sempron 3000+. It works fine in XGL though my FPS in glxgears has dropped to about 7500 from 10000. Worryingly clicking the x on the glxgears window does not close it but Ctrl+c seems to work.

[n3tfury]

Your right amun, its a total rip off of linux and mac ideas, but then again win95 was rip off of mac, its not like microsoft have EVER had an original GUI or anything for that matter.



yes, Apple has always came up with their own ideas. rofl.

[warp99]

Watch Triumph of the Nerds a PBS Documentary on the rise of the PC industry and The Pirates of Silicon Valley an HBO original movie. Both will pretty much show you how everyone stole from everyone else straight from the start.

http://www.pbs.org/nerds/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/

[Kernel Sanders]

Vista is nothing like Linux!

So what, Vista's new security model is similar to Mac and Linux, IE7 also has tabs, but we're all intellegent enough to see that Firefox and IE7 are nothing alike.

Vista also has the added bonus of being compatable with 90% of the software on the market today.

Tbh, take away DRM, activation, and WGA, and Vista is one hell of an OS :p

[DigitalDuality]

So i guess Linux never copies anyone else

:::rolls eyes:::

[prizrak]

As pointed out on many occasions above everyone copies everyone else. That's normal it's called dissemination of ideas. This is the reason that ideas cannot be copyrighted/patented only the implementation can be.

[Bragador]

Windows is not about inovation. Windows is about being conservative and efficient so that everyone knows how to operate it without much trouble each time there is a new version.

Imagine if Vista was all about being revolutionary with voice inputs commands, virtual 3d desktops flying everywhere and gloves instead of a mouse ?

Poor little secretary down the street...

Some products are more innovative and advanced but these are not for everyone. It's a bit like music. If you love music you'll find great music from around the world and after a year or so you might hear some of them on the radio. Yes, the radio is always behind in terms of music innovation and quality but that's because they try to catter to the mass market... i.e. the common denominator.

So Windows Vista is very good as a product for the mass market. You have a longer time period to adapt.

Linux is a very good product for people who like innovatio and changes. You have to learn the new gadgets though.

That was my humble opinion.

[n3tfury]

Windows is not about inovation. Windows is about being conservative and efficient so that everyone knows how to operate it without much trouble each time there is a new version.

Imagine if Vista was all about being revolutionary with voice inputs commands, virtual 3d desktops flying everywhere and gloves instead of a mouse ?

Poor little secretary down the street...

Some products are more innovative and advanced but these are not for everyone. It's a bit like music. If you love music you'll find great music from around the world and after a year or so you might hear some of them on the radio. Yes, the radio is always behind in terms of music innovation and quality but that's because they try to catter to the mass market... i.e. the common denominator.

So Windows Vista is very good as a product for the mass market. You have a longer time period to adapt.

Linux is a very good product for people who like innovatio and changes. You have to learn the new gadgets though.

That was my humble opinion.

good point.

[aysiu]

Poor little secretary down the street... Or, more likely, the poor secretary's boss. All the secretaries I've seen are crazy Windows power users. Their bosses, on the other hand, can sometimes barely type...

[Dr. C]

Originally Posted by *John*
Tbh, take away DRM, activation, and WGA, and Vista is one hell of an OS

True but DRM, activation and WGA are an integral part of Vista

[3rdalbum]

True but DRM, activation and WGA are an integral part of Vista

True, but Internet Explorer is an integral part of XP!

[Rhapsody]

I did look at Windows Vista recently and think "Well it looks good, but how will the inner workings compare to Edgy Eft?". They're in about the same timeframes, so I guess we'll see how they compare in winter 2006/2007.

[amunimanghi]

We will finally see when Vista comes out. I probably won't use it...Family restrictions. LOL When I first heard 'Microsoft Vista', I thought that it was a program of some sort. I wonder why they chose the name 'Vista'.

[n3tfury]

True, but Internet Explorer is an integral part of XP!

yeah, but you're not forced to use IE.

[aysiu]

yeah, but you're not forced to use IE. You are if you want to use Windows Update.

[Iandefor]

I did look at Windows Vista recently and think "Well it looks good, but how will the inner workings compare to Edgy Eft?". They're in about the same timeframes, so I guess we'll see how they compare in winter 2006/2007. I seem to recall reading a preview of some of the features being implemented in Vista. What stuck out was:

1) Better kernel- they apparently went in and replaced all of the legacy code in the XP kernel with actually workable code, and then went in and actually did some extensive bugfixing.

2) Better security- they're implementing a system similar to Ubuntu or Mac OS X- ie, one user account gets root priveleges, but they have to authenticate everything administrative they do

3) More resiliant- drivers are loaded as modules, which can be reloaded without needing to restart the kernel, which should obviously cut down on BSOD's.

They're official Microsoft statements, and I haven't bothered to double-check them, so I'll leave it at that and let you decide on their veracity on your own.

[Virogenesis]

I seem to recall reading a preview of some of the features being implemented in Vista. What stuck out was:

1) Better kernel- they apparently went in and replaced all of the legacy code in the XP kernel with actually workable code, and then went in and actually did some extensive bugfixing.

2) Better security- they're implementing a system similar to Ubuntu or Mac OS X- ie, one user account gets root priveleges, but they have to authenticate everything administrative they do

3) More resiliant- drivers are loaded as modules, which can be reloaded without needing to restart the kernel, which should obviously cut down on BSOD's.

They're official Microsoft statements, and I haven't bothered to double-check them, so I'll leave it at that and let you decide on their veracity on your own.
Don't they say that every time a new version of windows comes out?

[Wallakoala]

It just seems as if microsoft is always behind on these technological advances, and when they come out with something that is revolutionary for windows, everyone is misleaded and thinks that it is truely revolutionary.

I mean...come on. Tabbed browsing is really not that complex.

[Lanseta]

my comparison is:

linux = free.
vista = $150 something.](*,)

openoffice = free
office12 = $ somewhat similar to vista.](*,)

[Iandefor]

Don't they say that every time a new version of windows comes out? I don't follow Windows release announcements that closely. Hell, I was eleven when XP came out. It's not like I was reading tech periodicals at eleven.

[jnev]

well, I have a computer with Vista on it that I'm betatesting, and my desktop runs Ubuntu Dapper. to be honest, Vista is nothing but XP with another skin on it. it does look rather nice, but it's confusing to navigate around and the graphics that MS bragged so much about are absolutely nothing compared to xgl/compiz on Ubuntu.

[n3tfury]

You are if you want to use Windows Update.

true, you have me there, but usually this is only the case upon a fresh install. automatic updates doesn't require any IE intervention, thank goodness.

[Rhapsody]

I seem to recall reading a preview of some of the features being implemented in Vista. What stuck out was:

1) Better kernel- they apparently went in and replaced all of the legacy code in the XP kernel with actually workable code, and then went in and actually did some extensive bugfixing.

2) Better security- they're implementing a system similar to Ubuntu or Mac OS X- ie, one user account gets root priveleges, but they have to authenticate everything administrative they do

3) More resiliant- drivers are loaded as modules, which can be reloaded without needing to restart the kernel, which should obviously cut down on BSOD's.

They're official Microsoft statements, and I haven't bothered to double-check them, so I'll leave it at that and let you decide on their veracity on your own.
That's pretty much my point. These big features of Vista (that Microsoft has been spending years implementing) are pretty much just Microsoft playing catch-up with Linux. Which I already have! For free! Meanwhile, Ubuntu already has all of that, and can focus on advancing in other areas. So while Breezy looks pretty good next to Vista, Dapper will look even better, and who knows how Edgy will compare?

[Iandefor]

That's pretty much my point. These big features of Vista (that Microsoft has been spending years implementing) are pretty much just Microsoft playing catch-up with Linux. Which I already have! For free! Meanwhile, Ubuntu already has all of that, and can focus on advancing in other areas. So while Breezy looks pretty good next to Vista, Dapper will look even better, and who knows how Edgy will compare? Yeah, at least Vista will have a mildly sane security policy. But Vista has one thing that has me jealous: selective transparency, ie, the ability to make the window background transparent while the widgets remain opaque. People keep saying that they already have the stuff that Vista has via xgl/compiz, but they're missing that freaking selective transparency! I'll be stuck on Linux forever for sure if such a feature ever manages to get incorporated.

[G Morgan]

The new kernel was pretty much dropped. They've returned almost exclusively to the NT kernel. The only major difference is they've moved the rendering system into userland. Obviously theres some bug fixes but they are still trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Also UAP is looking like a joke. It simply bombards you with dialogs saying this ain't such a good idea. The problem is the user doesn't have permission to alter files within their home directory. Theres one post from a Windows fanboy emphasizing how he didn't have permission to remove a shortcut from his desktop.

The problem is MS need to spend an entire development cycle developing a new kernel and security system exclusively. Unfortunately their OS ideals won't allow this. It doesn't help that they were originally going to use NT, then dropped it, then went back.

The worrying thing is they were going to use an SQL server to index their filesystem. This has now been dropped but it still takes at least 512MB. What would it have needed if WinFS had shipped as planned.

[Rhapsody]

Yeah, at least Vista will have a mildly sane security policy. But Vista has one thing that has me jealous: selective transparency, ie, the ability to make the window background transparent while the widgets remain opaque. People keep saying that they already have the stuff that Vista has via xgl/compiz, but they're missing that freaking selective transparency! I'll be stuck on Linux forever for sure if such a feature ever manages to get incorporated.
Well, KDE4 is also in the same timeframe, so who knows? Kubuntu Edgy with KDE4 versus Windows Vista with the Aero theme? It's possible.

[prizrak]

1) Better kernel- they apparently went in and replaced all of the legacy code in the XP kernel with actually workable code, and then went in and actually did some extensive bugfixing.
Boy do I wish that happened. It was pointed out already but they didn't rewrite the kernel at all they just made it more of a microkernel than it used to be and fixed some bugs.

2) Better security- they're implementing a system similar to Ubuntu or Mac OS X- ie, one user account gets root priveleges, but they have to authenticate everything administrative they do

Mostly MS ********, what it does is simply annoy you with mad dialogs asking whether you are actually sure. Someone pointed this out already there was a problem where someone couldn't delete a mofing shortcut on the desktop.

3) More resiliant- drivers are loaded as modules, which can be reloaded without needing to restart the kernel, which should obviously cut down on BSOD's.
That's a microkernel architecture, it's mostly BS. Drivers for slow devices such as audio and stuff are moved into user space so their crash doesn't affect the kernel. This is EXTREMELY old like before Linux old. Minix, the OS that largely prompted Torvalds to create Linux, was a microkernel. The problem with that is though, anything that needs to be fast (HDD's, optical, w/e) will be using DMA (direct memory access) anyway and a crash in one of the DMA drivers will still bring down the OS.

The trade off when it comes to the microkernels though is the fact that it makes it more complex because there are many modules to pass messages between. This might be the reason for the amount of RAM needed by that OS.

[Bragador]

Wow thank you prizrak for that microkernel info.

I've never heard a con to vista's kernel before.

Finally I have some ammunitions to put in the cons of Vista now. (aside from the "they are just catching up" line)

[Rhapsody]

Actually, am I right in thinking that rather than being the real next version of Windows, Vista is actually a stop-gap between Windows XP and Windows 'Vienna'? I think I heard that somewhere, though I may be getting it confused with Windows 'Fiji'.

But if it is more of a stop-gap than a brand-new OS (which it seems to be turning into anyway) five and a half years is a massive wait. What company other than Microsoft could get away with such a crucial product update being delayed so much? Hell, it's already made the Wired Vaporware Top 10 list in 2004 (and I see it making the 2005 list too)! Other companies have ended up bankrupt from such delays...

[G Morgan]

The advantage of an anti-competition cartel like MS have with their OEM licenses. If MS operated in a free market they would never get away with such a delay.

Anyway Vista is looking increasingly like Me V2.

[BoyOfDestiny]

The advantage of an anti-competition cartel like MS have with their OEM licenses. If MS operated in a free market they would never get away with such a delay.

Anyway Vista is looking increasingly like Me V2.

Sigh, I'm hating MS too much since I've moved to Linux.
Anyway, I'll share my ancedote: (in 2004, since Vista likes being delayed). I was talking to a friend about switching to Linux, and he is like I'll do it in 2007 after Longhorn (haha...). He claimed longhorn would be like the next windows 2000...

My response was "google it".

His reply "Oh...".

Anyway, one thing that is gone is winfs. Or rather will come "later"... Who wants to defrag... Bleh...

[prizrak]

Wow thank you prizrak for that microkernel info.

I've never heard a con to vista's kernel before.

Finally I have some ammunitions to put in the cons of Vista now. (aside from the "they are just catching up" line)
You are welcome a good source for Vista cons is http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5308_05.asp
This is a huge MS fanboy bashing Vista :)