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View Full Version : Car is hitting the decade mark -- buy new or keep fingers crossed?



samalex
June 15th, 2011, 09:42 PM
This is totally not Ubuntu related, but I figured I'd get a good mix of replies in here none the less.

In Oct 2001 I bought a 2002 Chevy Trailblazer new and now that it's gotten me through a decade and 140K miles later I'm wondering if it's getting time to move to something new and more economical. I mean this thing only gets around 14 MPG, but that wasn't a concern because back then gas was still around a buck a gallon.

So here's my logic:


Total price for Car $21,000.00
Tax 6.25% $1,312.50
Total Cost $22,312.50
Trade In $3,500.00 (Trailblazer)
Cash $3,000.00
Finance Total $15,812.50

Years 6
Payments Per Year 12
Interest Rate 3%
Payments $239.54

Yearly Repairs $600 (or $50 month)
On Current Car
New Car Repairs $0 due to Warranty

Monthly miles 1000
Gas Price 3.95
Current MPG 14 $282.14 - Current Car Monthly Gas
New MPG 30 $131.67 - New Car Monthly Gas

Current Cost (Gas + Repairs) $332.14
New Cost (Gas + Note) $371.21
Difference $39.07



I'm looking at a few smaller cars because MPG is the major factor second only to room since we have two kids. The Hyundai Elantra and Toyota Corolla are two we're looking at with the Hyundai being the front runner. I checked the Hybrid cars, but honestly the MPG isn't high enough to offset the added cost.

My Trailblazer still drives great, but I'm spending about $500-$800/year on maintenance which adds up.

Thanks for any suggestions, thoughts, opinions, etc.

Sam

tgm4883
June 15th, 2011, 09:45 PM
This is totally not Ubuntu related, but I figured I'd get a good mix of replies in here none the less.

In Oct 2001 I bought a 2002 Chevy Trailblazer new and now that it's gotten me through a decade and 140K miles later I'm wondering if it's getting time to move to something new and more economical. I mean this thing only gets around 14 MPG, but that wasn't a concern because back then gas was still around a buck a gallon.

So here's my logic:


Total price for Car $21,000.00
Tax 6.25% $1,312.50
Total Cost $22,312.50
Trade In $3,500.00 (Trailblazer)
Cash $3,000.00
Finance Total $15,812.50

Years 6
Payments Per Year 12
Interest Rate 3%
Payments $239.54

Yearly Service $600 (or $50 month)
On Current Car

Monthly miles 1000
Gas Price 3.95
Current MPG 14 $282.14 - Current Car Monthly Gas
New MPG 30 $131.67 - New Car Monthly Gas

Current Cost (Gas + Service) $332.14
New Cost (Gas + Note) $371.21
Difference $39.07



I'm looking at a few smaller cars because MPG is the major factor second only to room since we have two kids. The Hyundai Elantra and Toyota Corolla are two we're looking at with the Hyundai being the front runner. I checked the Hybrid cars, but honestly the MPG isn't high enough to offset the added cost.

My Trailblazer still drives great, but I'm spending about $500-$800/year on maintenance which adds up.

Thanks for any suggestions, thoughts, opinions, etc.

Sam

Does a new car not need any service?

samalex
June 15th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Does a new car not need any service?

I always get an extended warranty which covers the costs of repairs so any repairs that might come-up are covered. When I mentioned 'Servicing' I was thinking more of Repairs, not oil changes and so forth since those costs would probably be pretty much the same on any vehicle.

I'll update my OP and fix this though since it could be misleading.

tgm4883
June 15th, 2011, 09:58 PM
I drive a 99 Toyota Camry but I say go that providing you can afford the extra $40 per month then for it. For $40 more per month you get to drive a new car and don't have to worry about it breaking down, etc. If you could talk them down or fork over more up front cash then you might be able to eliminate the $40/month extra.

Sucks about sales tax though. No sales tax in Oregon :)

forrestcupp
June 15th, 2011, 10:06 PM
My Trailblazer still drives great, but I'm spending about $500-$800/year on maintenance which adds up.


Which is not nearly as much as a $400-$500/month car payment.

My wife just traded her '99 Cavalier that got about 28mpg in for an '08 Civic Hybrid that gets around 43mpg average. She drives around 100 miles round trip each day to work. Her car payment went from $100/month to $355/month. If you factor in the extra money we're paying for the car payment minus the money we save in gas, we're still paying anywhere from $50-$100 more per month than we were.

The only reason it was worth it for us is that the Cavalier was truly at the end of its life, and we had to buy a car anyway. In my opinion, you should only buy a car when you need to. Then when you do need to buy one, make sure to get one with good mileage.

KiwiNZ
June 15th, 2011, 10:21 PM
I always trade while the car is under the manufactures warranty. In NZ that is usually three years. Couple that with free servicing I have not purchased new tyres, car parts, oil etc for a car in years.

The change over price is usually small to the new models.

Which reminds me my Audi is due for replacement, that car has cost me only petrol in three years.

Dustin2128
June 15th, 2011, 11:13 PM
I'd go with something more fuel efficient, personally.

el_koraco
June 15th, 2011, 11:19 PM
If you're looking at Hyundai, look at Kia as well. It's the same thing, but cheaper, and some models offer a seven year warranty.

PhilGil
June 15th, 2011, 11:53 PM
I don't see the cost of auto insurance factored into your calculations. A new $20,000+ vehicle is going to cost quite a bit more to insure than your old SUV (especially if you have young drivers at home). In addition, you should factor the $3,000 cash down payment into your calculations. That works out to $42/month on a 72-month loan or five years of car repairs (at $50/month) on the old SUV.

In addition, I would strongly recommend that you look at a late model used car instead of a new car. You could keep your payments about the same but you could take out a shorter loan - six years is a long time to pay on a car loan.

Buy another car because you want to, but it's going to be almost impossible to justify financially if your old car is still running well.

smellyman
June 16th, 2011, 12:11 AM
buy a super cheap, economical car and pay all cash if you can. Run it until its dead. Worst thing people can do is live with constant car payments. You seem to be making a wise decision imo on your next car.

Cars are the single worst purchase to make. Money drainers.

Best day of my life is when I moved to Hong Kong and never had to own a car again.

KiwiNZ
June 16th, 2011, 12:14 AM
buy a super cheap, economical car and pay all cash if you can. Run it until its dead. Worst thing people can do is live with constant car payments.

Cars are the single worst purchase to make. Money drainers.

Best day of my life is when I moved to Hong Kong and never had to own a car again.

Without cars I could not get around or tow my boat, to me they are both a necessity and a life style choice. I have a Car and a SUV plus my wife has a car when we upgrade the change over is never that high.

I agree financing a Car is not the best, I never finance one.

neu5eeCh
June 16th, 2011, 01:06 AM
Everyone's financial situation is different, but if one can't buy the car outright, I personally would never recommend a new car. Over the course of a year, the upkeep on a used car should never exceed or equal the payments on a new car. Cars are rarely anything other than a liability.

drs305
June 16th, 2011, 01:11 AM
I had to make the same decision twelve years ago. And then I had to do it again two years ago...

Same vehicle both times. Still going strong after 22 years. :-)

cariboo
June 16th, 2011, 01:41 AM
I'm on my second car since 1984. I bought a Golf diesel new in 1984, and finally retired it in 2006, due to rust more than anything else. The car I'm driving now, I paid a fellow $25.00 CDN for, in a bar parking lot at midnight in 2006.

I do all my own maintenance, except for body work (I'm a certified mechanic). I just replaced the exhaust system on my 1988 Civic today, the parts cost were less than $100.00, which is the only major expense since I bought it.

Cars have gotten to the point where they will run forever if maintained regularly. You can save a fair amount of money if you do basic maintenance yourself, and I find it somewhat comforting, laying underneath the vehicle changing oil, or giving my car a grease job. :)

smellyman
June 16th, 2011, 02:06 AM
I'm on my second car since 1984. I bought a Golf diesel new in 1984, and finally retired it in 2006, due to rust more than anything else. The car I'm driving now, I paid a fellow $25.00 CDN for, in a bar parking lot at midnight in 2006.

I do all my own maintenance, except for body work (I'm a certified mechanic). I just replaced the exhaust system on my 1988 Civic today, the parts cost were less than $100.00, which is the only major expense since I bought it.

Cars have gotten to the point where they will run forever if maintained regularly. You can save a fair amount of money if you do basic maintenance yourself, and I find it somewhat comforting, laying underneath the vehicle changing oil, or giving my car a grease job. :)

Crikey. A car mechanic and a computer guy.

You must have a lot of friends buying you beer to take a look at their computer/car.

corrytonapple
June 16th, 2011, 02:14 AM
Consider a used car. Or, if you want new but do not mind the dents, come on down to Knoxville, Tn, where we have hail damaged cars that are brand new with $10,000 knocked off of the price!
I am yet to be able to drive, but, my dad says when I can, (not much longer left) I will drive him everywhere. When we are on a job, I load a trailer full of garbage, and go dispose of it. Then, he does not have to. :)
Yup, I will be driving for the rest of my life. :p

handy
June 16th, 2011, 05:08 AM
My car is 16 years old. I bought it 3 years ago for $2,500-. It would have cost approx' $35,000- new in 2005 when new. Which shows that auto-mobiles are about the worst personal investment a person can make, let alone the fact that they are collectively probably the worst thing on the planet as far as the biosphere is concerned.

So the smart move is to buy used & buy well, age doesn't matter it is the other variables of mileage/kilometres, service history, the size of the motor, whether it lived by the ocean (rust) & such that matter in the end.

uRock
June 16th, 2011, 05:12 AM
I have had cars that were more than 20 years old. If it is running well, then there is no reason to waste another 20-50 thousand on another car just to save $10 a week in gas.

OTOH, it is you money. If you want that new car smell, then go for it.

tgalati4
June 16th, 2011, 05:31 AM
Which car would your kids walk away from if in an accident? The cost of gas is small compared to the grief of losing a child that was crushed in your shiny new appliance car.

KiwiNZ
June 16th, 2011, 05:49 AM
My car is 16 years old. I bought it 3 years ago for $2,500-. It would have cost approx' $35,000- new in 2005 when new. Which shows that auto-mobiles are about the worst personal investment a person can make, let alone the fact that they are collectively probably the worst thing on the planet as far as the biosphere is concerned.

So the smart move is to buy used & buy well, age doesn't matter it is the other variables of mileage/kilometres, service history, the size of the motor, whether it lived by the ocean (rust) & such that matter in the end.

Older cars especially those 16+ years just do not have the safety features , fuel economy and emission control of modern cars.

handy
June 16th, 2011, 06:12 AM
Older cars especially those 16+ years just do not have the safety features , fuel economy and emission control of modern cars.

My car is a commodore, which certainly has some emission controls built in, though I had it converted to LPG, so it is somewhat cleaner than petrol anyway, though naturally it is still far from perfect emission wise in more ways than one.

Safety wise it has air bags & it is a large car which does have certain safety advantages re. impact.

Bandit
June 16th, 2011, 02:41 PM
Which is not nearly as much as a $400-$500/month car payment.

My wife just traded her '99 Cavalier that got about 28mpg in for an '08 Civic Hybrid that gets around 43mpg average. She drives around 100 miles round trip each day to work. Her car payment went from $100/month to $355/month. If you factor in the extra money we're paying for the car payment minus the money we save in gas, we're still paying anywhere from $50-$100 more per month than we were.

The only reason it was worth it for us is that the Cavalier was truly at the end of its life, and we had to buy a car anyway. In my opinion, you should only buy a car when you need to. Then when you do need to buy one, make sure to get one with good mileage.

Yea my '99 GrandAm is in the same boat. Trying to finish up college living on Mont GI bill money at the same time. Cant afford a new car and my Grand Am is getting to wear I need to spend $500 a year to keep running, just this last past saturday I changed breaks, that went out to wore out rotors, then both tierod ends on steering and one front axle bearing. Total cost ~$175 with tax and 3 hours of my time, I did the repairs myself.

A determining factor also is if the $100 extra a month means you got a dependable ride to ensure you are able to get to work or school.
To me yea it would be. I just hope I can get a good job soon since I am about to finish up my degree the next few months, so I can get a new car.



I'd go with something more fuel efficient, personally.
+1 So many out there now about the same price that get at least 35-40mpg.
VW Jete comes to mind, 42mpg and turbo charged.



If you're looking at Hyundai, look at Kia as well. It's the same thing, but cheaper, and some models offer a seven year warranty.
This is true and some of the newer models are not that bad looking.

psusi
June 16th, 2011, 03:04 PM
My wife's car is 10 years old. We're holding out until next year when the Tesla Model S (http://www.teslamotors.com/models) comes out. They were in town last week with the roadster and gave me a test drive and oh boy that thing is a monster. 0-60 in 4.0 seconds, warp speed ahead! Pretty good for batteries eh? ;)

mips
June 16th, 2011, 03:32 PM
My wife's car is 10 years old. We're holding out until next year when the Tesla Model S (http://www.teslamotors.com/models) comes out. They were in town last week with the roadster and gave me a test drive and oh boy that thing is a monster. 0-60 in 4.0 seconds, warp speed ahead! Pretty good for batteries eh? ;)

Eish, a 2000km road trip would require me to overnight 3 times. I used to do 700-800km day trips and that car would be useless for that and where do you find 480V outlets for a quick charge? Suppose if you are only doing short trips it's fine but then there's the price, omg.

psusi
June 16th, 2011, 03:41 PM
Eish, a 2000km road trip would require me to overnight 3 times. I used to do 700-800km day trips and that car would be useless for that and where do you find 480V outlets for a quick charge? Suppose if you are only doing short trips it's fine but then there's the price, omg.

Yep, we'll have to drive my Prius for long road trips. Really nice car for around town though.

samalex
June 16th, 2011, 03:47 PM
Which is not nearly as much as a $400-$500/month car payment.

My wife just traded her '99 Cavalier that got about 28mpg in for an '08 Civic Hybrid that gets around 43mpg average. She drives around 100 miles round trip each day to work. Her car payment went from $100/month to $355/month. If you factor in the extra money we're paying for the car payment minus the money we save in gas, we're still paying anywhere from $50-$100 more per month than we were.

The only reason it was worth it for us is that the Cavalier was truly at the end of its life, and we had to buy a car anyway. In my opinion, you should only buy a car when you need to. Then when you do need to buy one, make sure to get one with good mileage.

I had a 1995 Cavalier before the Trailblazer and drove it for about 6 years when it started reaching that End Of Life point which seems to be around 100K miles for them. I hoped I'd get better life from my Trailblazer, which I have given it's hitting 10 years and 140K miles.

My wife talked to the car dealer last night plus I recalculated my mileage since the numbers I posted originally were more guesstimate, and we're looking at about $100-$130 more a month with the new car, which I think would be worth it.

Sam

samalex
June 16th, 2011, 03:58 PM
I don't see the cost of auto insurance factored into your calculations. A new $20,000+ vehicle is going to cost quite a bit more to insure than your old SUV (especially if you have young drivers at home). In addition, you should factor the $3,000 cash down payment into your calculations. That works out to $42/month on a 72-month loan or five years of car repairs (at $50/month) on the old SUV.

In addition, I would strongly recommend that you look at a late model used car instead of a new car. You could keep your payments about the same but you could take out a shorter loan - six years is a long time to pay on a car loan.

Buy another car because you want to, but it's going to be almost impossible to justify financially if your old car is still running well.

I've spoken with the insurance company, and the insurance would be just alittle more on the new car, about $20/month. We're getting an insurance credit due to some safety features in the car we're looking at, which helps, but the Gap Insurance is what raises the cost since my Trailblazer doesn't need Gap insurance given it's been paid off for 6 years.

Also I agree that it's hard to justify a car note when our current car runs fine, but I'm looking at this from two angles -- future maintenance and also gas costs. For maintenance I think it's only time before things start breaking, and given we have two small kids I'd hate to break down with them in the car during one of our 103F afternoons. I've driven 10+ year old hand-me-down cars before, and it's just a matter of time before costly things will start going out.

And for gas, given I bought the Trailblazer when was was still at $1/gallon the 14 MPG wasn't such a hard pill to swallow, but putting $60-$70 in the tank every 6 days or so is drives me nuts when it used to cost under $20. As a family we take lots of road trips to visit family out of town, so driving something with that type of gas mileage causes even 2 hour trips to run $150 or more just for gas. With the new car this'll go down tremendously.

Also I'd like to think the trade-in will be better given the car is still mechanically sound and it runs well. It does need the breaks and shocks reworked, plus the engine is due for a tune-up, but outside of that it's a sound ride. I hope the dealer we take it to will look at all this and give us a decent trade-in, but I"m not giving it away... if they offer $2500 or less I'll just dip into savings and keep the car as a spare.

samalex
June 16th, 2011, 04:03 PM
I'm on my second car since 1984. I bought a Golf diesel new in 1984, and finally retired it in 2006, due to rust more than anything else. The car I'm driving now, I paid a fellow $25.00 CDN for, in a bar parking lot at midnight in 2006.

I do all my own maintenance, except for body work (I'm a certified mechanic). I just replaced the exhaust system on my 1988 Civic today, the parts cost were less than $100.00, which is the only major expense since I bought it.

Cars have gotten to the point where they will run forever if maintained regularly. You can save a fair amount of money if you do basic maintenance yourself, and I find it somewhat comforting, laying underneath the vehicle changing oil, or giving my car a grease job. :)

If I knew how to work on cars I'd definitely have a different outlook, but honestly I've tried to work on my own cars with little success which is why I have a mechanic I trust who does all my work. It's costly, but that's how I've gotten 10 years out of my car thus far.

About 6 years ago I bought a 1955 Chevy 210 to work on and learn about cars, which most of my friends said those were the simplest cars to work on. Yeah, after 4 years of toying with it with little success I sold it on EBay... I'm just not that mechanically inclined i guess.

samalex
June 16th, 2011, 04:10 PM
Yep, we'll have to drive my Prius for long road trips. Really nice car for around town though.

Do you like the Prius? We looked at those, but compared to the Elantra and others that have 40 or more MPG I didn't see many pros in the Prius or other hybrids. Honestly I've been drooling over the Prius for years, but the starting is $23K with few frills while the Elantra is $22K fully loaded.

We looked at the Corolla which are nice, but the reviews are horrible on the newer models. It seems everything is going back to the Elantra for us, which is probably what we'll be running with.

wizard10000
June 16th, 2011, 04:33 PM
...My Trailblazer still drives great, but I'm spending about $500-$800/year on maintenance which adds up.


$800 a year != a new car payment.

The extra fuel costs might if you add them to maintenance costs - but my own rule of thumb is if the old car costs less than the payment on a new car I keep the old one ;)

wizard10000
June 16th, 2011, 04:37 PM
Which car would your kids walk away from if in an accident? The cost of gas is small compared to the grief of losing a child that was crushed in your shiny new appliance car.

Actually the appliance car is safer in a crash than an older SUV.

Body-on-frame vehicles transmit more of the force of a collision to the passenger compartment than unibody vehicles do. You *want* the car to fold up in a crash, honest ;)

Grenage
June 16th, 2011, 04:47 PM
I have an old 97 Corolla G6, and the thing has boon solid - nothing has ever needed doing for the MOT. That said, I'll be changing the sump gasket and cleaning out the calipers rather soon. Something had to come up eventually.

A home car service is usually a trivial job, just get a Haynes manual or do some reading. It's a bonus if you don't 'need' the car the text day. ;)

forrestcupp
June 16th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Crikey. A car mechanic and a computer guy.

You must have a lot of friends buying you beer to take a look at their computer/car.My experience as a computer guy is that people don't buy you anything; they just take advantage of you and expect that it's their right. ;)



A determining factor also is if the $100 extra a month means you got a dependable ride to ensure you are able to get to work or school.
To me yea it would be.Which is exactly why we got another car. If what you already have is dependable but it's just old, it may not be worth it.


My wife talked to the car dealer last night plus I recalculated my mileage since the numbers I posted originally were more guesstimate, and we're looking at about $100-$130 more a month with the new car, which I think would be worth it.The peace of mind may be worth the extra $100-$130. The point is if you're already in the market for a car, it's a good time to get one that's fuel efficient. But if you're not in the market for a car, it probably wouldn't pay off to get one just for the sake of fuel efficiency.

PhilGil
June 16th, 2011, 04:53 PM
Also I agree that it's hard to justify a car note when our current car runs fine, but I'm looking at this from two angles -- future maintenance and also gas costs. For maintenance I think it's only time before things start breaking, and given we have two small kids I'd hate to break down with them in the car during our of our 103F afternoons. I've driven 10+ year old hand-me-down cars before, and it's just a matter of time before costly things will start going out.

And for gas, given I bought the Trailblazer when was was still at $1/gallon the 14 MPG wasn't such a hard pill to swallow, but putting $60-$70 in the tank every 6 days or so is drives me nuts when it used to cost under $20. As a family we take lots of road trips to visit family out of town, so driving something with that type of gas mileage causes even 2 hour trips to run $150 or more just for gas. With the new car this'll go down tremendously.

Also I'd like to think the trade-in will be better given the car is still mechanically sound and it runs well. It does need the breaks and shocks reworked, plus the engine is due for a tune-up, but outside of that it's a sound ride. I hope the dealer we take it to will look at all this and give us a decent trade-in, but I"m not giving it away... if they offer $2500 or less I'll just dip into savings and keep the car as a spare.

All valid reasons for purchasing a new vehicle. My point was that replacing a car that still runs well is rarely a good decision based purely on financial criteria.

I made the same choice you're considering last year. I replaced a 10-year old car with 165,000 miles on the odometer with a late model used economy car. My old car was coming up on some expensive repairs and I didn't want to put additional money into keeping it running. I commute 80 miles per day and wanted something I could rely on for the next few years.

I did, however, go with a late model used car rather than a new car. Much better value and I didn't have to eat the depreciation for the first three years.

mips
June 16th, 2011, 05:15 PM
If I knew how to work on cars I'd definitely have a different outlook, but honestly I've tried to work on my own cars with little success which is why I have a mechanic I trust who does all my work. It's costly, but that's how I've gotten 10 years out of my car thus far.


Factory service manual or a Haynes one does the trick. I taught myself and asked for advice when needed.

timZZ
June 16th, 2011, 05:36 PM
The answer is simple ...

A new cost comes with a monthly price tag that can exceed the monthly price tag of a used or currently owned vehicle.

Could you use this money somewhere else? Do you have a critical employment position will they will let you go if you are unable to reach your destination? Are you a parent?

This question is hard to solve on a forum like this because we do not have a picture of how you operate from a day to day basis.

LowSky
June 16th, 2011, 05:48 PM
A few years ago i read an article that did a cost analysis on driving a old car and buying a new Prius. Even with its amazing fuel economy the conclusion was driving the older car was more economical in the end.

The only reasons to ever buy a new(er) car is if the old one mechanically fails to the point parts are impossible to find, repairs are too frequently required, or you simple hate driving the vehicle.

BrokenKingpin
June 16th, 2011, 07:06 PM
I was driving a 1988 Mazda 323 Turbo up until a few years ago... I always prefer to drive my cars until it is no longer possible. I get attached to my cars and could not imagine giving them up while they are still running decent.

KiwiNZ
June 16th, 2011, 08:05 PM
All valid reasons for purchasing a new vehicle. My point was that replacing a car that still runs well is rarely a good decision based purely on financial criteria.

I made the same choice you're considering last year. I replaced a 10-year old car with 165,000 miles on the odometer with a late model used economy car. My old car was coming up on some expensive repairs and I didn't want to put additional money into keeping it running. I commute 80 miles per day and wanted something I could rely on for the next few years.

I did, however, go with a late model used car rather than a new car. Much better value and I didn't have to eat the depreciation for the first three years.

I have been offered a change over between my Audi A5 to a Audi A6 that would mean I am selling my A5 for $10,000 less than what I paid for it. Buying new is not as bad as a lot of people think.

psusi
June 16th, 2011, 08:07 PM
Do you like the Prius? We looked at those, but compared to the Elantra and others that have 40 or more MPG I didn't see many pros in the Prius or other hybrids. Honestly I've been drooling over the Prius for years, but the starting is $23K with few frills while the Elantra is $22K fully loaded.


I got one of the first '08 models that arrived in late '07 and have been very happy with it. I had driven a Mountaineer for 10 years before that, and when I was shopping, I wasn't sure if I could get used to driving a small car again, but was sick of the $75 fill-up.

I took it out for a test drive and found that not only did it have more room and pickup than I expected, but it deeply appealed to my inner gadget nerd. Once the engine shut off with the A/C still running I was sold. I typically only put in 7 gallons and get 300-350 miles every other week. I live in Florida so most of the year I have to run the A/C, and only live a short distance from work, otherwise I would get even better economy.

The saved gas at today's prices probably isn't quite worth the added cost, but I figured it was good insurance against further increases in the cost of gas, and a little help for the environment and our dependance on oil. Who knows? Maybe in 2 years, gas will be $8 a gallon and then the investment will have been a very good idea.

Bandit
June 16th, 2011, 08:09 PM
Without cars I could not get around or tow my boat, to me they are both a necessity and a life style choice. I have a Car and a SUV plus my wife has a car when we upgrade the change over is never that high.

I agree financing a Car is not the best, I never finance one.
Having purchased cars both overseas and in the US, buying a car overseas normally is easier and cheaper at times. Buys a car here in the US can be a pain and get expensive. Few people here have more then 10k USD in the bank unless they are very well off because there is such a huge gap between rich and lower income people.

giddyup306
June 16th, 2011, 11:00 PM
100,000 miles isn't a lot on a modern production vehicle. I have 270,000 miles on my 97 Lincoln Town car with the original engine and transmission. The only major work I had to do to it was around 242K I had to put head gaskets in it. Granted book time is 11.6 hours, and I spent about $1000 in machine work and parts. If you think "it's not worth it", that's the cost of two car payments.

There was an Econoline van that went 1.4 million miles on the original engine and trans before reverse gave out. As far as I know he fixed it and is still driving it...

If you're looking for something with a warranty, here's some food for thought. These companies are still making money. If you buy a Hundai, you still need to do PMs like trans, brake, coolant flushes, and you need to replace things like timing belts at service interivals. Chrysler has a lifetime powertrain warranty, but that only covers the engine itself. If you are over 12,000 miles a lot of stuff isn't covered.

One of the worst things you can do is buy a new car. Unless you pay cash, you will end up owing more than it is worth after a year or two due to depreciation.

Another thing you need to look at is longevity. Things like Kias, and Hundais are cheap because they are made cheap. Things aren't meant to be replaced, just buy another car. I had to price a wheel bearing for a Kia something-or-another a couple years ago. It was over $300. I also remember working on a Daewoo. Nope no parts, that company doesn't exist anymore, nor did the aftermarket make parts for it.

Some of the more fuel efficient cars suffer longevity issues. Most modern 4 cylinder engines use timing belts rather than timing chains. I have never saw a 2.5/3.0/4/6/5.4/6.8's engine break a timing chain. I have seen a lot of timing belts go out on the 2.0 Ztec. Most modern engines are interferance engines, so when that happens, it most often results in catastrophic engine failure.

Also I like to buy American made products. Even if the vehicle itself is made in the US, the parts usually aren't.

My better car is a 2002 Crown Vic. In the past 6 months I've driven it over 25,000 miles. Three roundtrips from Omaha to LA and once roundtrip from Omaha to Miami. I'll go half way across the US, and not even think twice about it. I bought the CV with 120,000 miles on it.

As far as fuel efficiency goes, most of it depends on driving style. The TC and CV get about the same as far as that goes. I drove from Omaha to East St. Louis a few years ago. Some people don't believe me, but I averaged low 30's on that trip. Let off the fuel when you go up a hill, gain speed when you go down, scan ahead and use the brake as little as possible. You really make people behind you mad, but you have just as much right to be on that road as everyone else.

el_koraco
June 17th, 2011, 02:27 AM
Another thing you need to look at is longevity. Things like Kias, and Hundais are cheap because they are made cheap. Things aren't meant to be replaced, just buy another car. I had to price a wheel bearing for a Kia something-or-another a couple years ago. It was over $300. I also remember working on a Daewoo. Nope no parts, that company doesn't exist anymore, nor did the aftermarket make parts for it.



When I was a kid, my mom drove a Hyundai Accent. That was the 98 model or something, the lowest price range. She kept the thing for 10 years, and literally the only thing to replace was the front suspension and the grill after I drove the car into a tree. The repair costs were minimal. Things might be different in the US, though, the Koreans are quite prominent where I live, and the parts are cheap as hell.

apple+
June 17th, 2011, 07:44 AM
My car is from 1968. At most when it needs it save money and get an eigine rebuild. :)

mips
June 17th, 2011, 11:48 AM
Having purchased cars both overseas and in the US, buying a car overseas normally is easier and cheaper at times. Buys a car here in the US can be a pain and get expensive. Few people here have more then 10k USD in the bank unless they are very well off because there is such a huge gap between rich and lower income people.

Cars in the US actually seem pretty cheap to me compared to where I live. If you think the gap between rich & poor is bad in the US then it's very bad in non-western countries. I just think people in the US don't save much, the consumer based society is more about spending than saving and people are living beyond their means. Even those well off earning 150-200k pa seem to have lots of debt as credit is so easy to come by.

Bandit
June 17th, 2011, 01:43 PM
Actually the appliance car is safer in a crash than an older SUV.

Body-on-frame vehicles transmit more of the force of a collision to the passenger compartment than unibody vehicles do. You *want* the car to fold up in a crash, honest ;)
To clarify this up since most every here possible pictures an accordion in their head when they read this. Since I know what he was talking about. You want the body to fold up. Fold up under the hood or trunk to absord the shock and the inner body zone to be more rigid protecting people in the car. Which is also by they are adding more air bags now in the car.

Bandit
June 17th, 2011, 02:08 PM
Cars in the US actually seem pretty cheap to me compared to where I live. If you think the gap between rich & poor is bad in the US then it's very bad in non-western countries. I just think people in the US don't save much, the consumer based society is more about spending than saving and people are living beyond their means. Even those well off earning 150-200k pa seem to have lots of debt as credit is so easy to come by.

You gota take into account of the value of currency by looking at the exchange rates.

You are correct tho that some countries have it worse off, I have been around the world and have seen this. But reason I pointed it out is that everyone I meet seems to think the US has roads paved with gold, which is further from the truth.

I dont want to steer this topic off, so I will try to keep this brief.

Currently here in the US, how much money you make really depends on your education. Education in a local community college isnt to un reasonable ruffy $120 per semester hour plus book and other fees, which is about $1800 all together full time - per semester if you dont live in a door or get a meal ticket. Thats 3600 a year or roughly $7200. Sounds reasonable yea..
(Avergage paying job after 2 year course $35,000-$80,000)

Ole Miss (graduate college) says students need minimum $6400 per semester. Were as 5200 is tuition and fees, 1200 books. Doesnt include housing or food.
(Average paying job after 4 year degree, $75,000-$125,000)

OK most people here that only have a High school Diploma or just a GED make an average of $12.00 per hour. Which is $480 gross before taxes and insurance. Not counting in retirement. Insurance for basic 80/20 plan is around $80, then fed/state taxes are about $80. So that leaves the person with $320 USD week, $1280 a month. -$400 rent or morgage, -$300 food, -$200 power/water/gas bills. We are already at -$900 leaving $380 for gas and this doesnt count if you have a phone, cable or even a car payment or car insurance that is required by law. Thus how can anyone afford to send their children to college without assistance. Also showing that its not that people here in the US blow money,, its soon as we make it someone is taking it in the form of bills.

This is also the reason I went to the military for 6 years so I could get my GI Bill money and go to college. But not everyone is as lucky. But you can see the gap from what I was explaining.


Now to get back on topic. I really want to see what car the OP has chosen since I am gonna be in the market hopefully in a few months.

uRock
June 17th, 2011, 05:34 PM
This is also the reason I went to the military for 6 years so I could get my GI Bill money and go to college.

That extra $1400 a month really helps.

I regret buying my latest cars. I am paying almost a grand in car payments a month, which could be going to much better uses. Once these cars are paid off I will run them until they die before buying another car.

CharlesA
June 17th, 2011, 07:28 PM
@uRock: Ouch! That's a hell of a car payment.

I'm still making car payments on my car (2005 Neon), and once it's paid off, I'm going to be driving it until it dies. It's in good condition, even if it idles a bit rough - I've had it checked a couple times and no one can find a problem or a reason why it it is idling rough. *shrugs*

I'd much rather have to deal with the cost of maintenance over a car payment, even if it's a major repair cuz it's only a one time thing, not every month.

uRock
June 17th, 2011, 07:34 PM
@uRock: Ouch! That's a hell of a car payment.
Its for two cars. :D

mips
June 17th, 2011, 07:40 PM
Its for two cars. :D

You don't play around :D

CharlesA
June 17th, 2011, 09:43 PM
Its for two cars. :D

Wow. I thought $500 for two cars was bad. :lolflag:

handy
June 18th, 2011, 01:50 AM
I've leased a couple of vehicles when I was in business, as the tax office here in Oz, allows you to write off up to 13 monthly payments paid in advance.

I bought my first car (Toyota Starlet - 40->50 miles/imperial gallon) in the last week of the financial year (which ends on the 30th of June here) & could therefore pay 13 months in advance & not have to pay tax on that income for the year. I had kept a log book for 3 months which allowed me to write off 93% of all costs involved with the vehicles.

The 2nd one that I leased was used with reasonably low k's on the odometer. It was a fibreglass high-top Toyota Hi-Ace lwb van, that had been used to carry plants around. It was perfect for me to fit out into a campervan, all of which I wrote off against my tax & 93%. :) A most enjoyable vehicle which today I regret that I ever parted with it.

Buying a new car is usually the worst investment we ever make. As soon as you have signed the papers & driven out the door you have lost many thousands of dollars that you will not recover. Tax, stamp duty, depreciation & for many on-road costs from the dealer as well, all add up to hit you like a sledge hammer. That's not to even mention financial fees & then the interest on top of that, if you are borrowing money to pay for the car, be it lease, hire purchase or (the smart way if you can) extending your home loan.

Buying a low mileage used vehicle is truly the smart way to buy as the original owner is the one that took the big financial hit for you.

If you are mechanically minded or know someone who can help you, going to automotive auctions can bring you a bargain, but you have to be prepared to put the time in going to the auctions until the bargain that is just right for you turns up.

Bandit
June 18th, 2011, 03:34 AM
@uRock: Ouch! That's a hell of a car payment.

I'm still making car payments on my car (2005 Neon), and once it's paid off, I'm going to be driving it until it dies. It's in good condition, even if it idles a bit rough - I've had it checked a couple times and no one can find a problem or a reason why it it is idling rough. *shrugs*

I'd much rather have to deal with the cost of maintenance over a car payment, even if it's a major repair cuz it's only a one time thing, not every month.

Having a GrandAm with a Quad four engine, I have experience roughness big time at idle. I was told by the dealerships and family that own car lots that its just the way they are. I went to Autozone and purchased Bosch Platinum Quad sparkplug that have 4 side electrodes. It got rid of better then 90% of my shudder. Plus the last pair I ran I put over 100,000 miles on and they still looked brand new. I should have just left them in.. hehe They are about $5 bucks a piece, try those and see if they dont help.

CharlesA
June 18th, 2011, 03:40 AM
Having a GrandAm with a Quad four engine, I have experience roughness big time at idle. I was told by the dealerships and family that own car lots that its just the way they are. I went to Autozone and purchased Bosch Platinum Quad sparkplug that have 4 side electrodes. It got rid of better then 90% of my shudder. Plus the last pair I ran I put over 100,000 miles on and they still looked brand new. I should have just left them in.. hehe They are about $5 bucks a piece, try those and see if they dont help.

Nice thanks. The "rough idle" feels like it's in tune with the firing of each cylinder, if that makes sense. I'll give that a shot. :)

The strange part is that if I shift into neutral, the rough idle goes away. :confused:

73ckn797
June 18th, 2011, 04:03 AM
Being a mechanic, now an extended warranty inspector, my cost of repairs are low. I have a 2000 Ford Ranger, 2.5L 4 cyl., 5 speed trans. I bought the truck with 38,000 miles and now have 467,000 miles on it. Typical wear and tear maintenance. 1 clutch, ball joints, radiator and the seat cover is worn from my butt getting in and out a dozen times a day. I drive 200-300 miles a day, mostly highway. The vehicle has been paid for since 2004. The engine does not leak or use oil. The differential is whining but with this many miles, I would too.

Really the kind of driving I do is better for a vehicle than one that goes under 20k a year. I have seen vehicles that have perfect maintenance but are only driven 10k a year and the engines are sludged and the effects of time take a toll.

Being biased I think that keeping a vehicle as long as possible is cheaper than the expense of constant payments.

Extended warranties can be good and bad. Good if you ever have to replace an engine or transmission. Sometimes one computer in a vehicle can cost $1,000. That expense will pay for the cost of the warranty. I am an inspector for multiple extended warranty companies and usually the higher end vehicles (MB, BMW, Audi ...etc) are the ones that can cost a lot of money to maintain and repair. I spent 20 years working on imports (in the USA) and the dirty secret is the cost of parts, though there was, generally, a better reliability factor with imports, though not so much these days. Bad if you never have to use it. Then the cost of the contract is never returned. I guess that peace of mind has an advantage to some.

Any warranty is only as good as the care that a person puts into their vehicle. Too many think they can drive the wheels off a vehicle and not maintain it and then feel the warranty should cover any failures. WRONG!!

73ckn797
June 18th, 2011, 04:06 AM
Nice thanks. The "rough idle" feels like it's in tune with the firing of each cylinder, if that makes sense. I'll give that a shot. :)

The strange part is that if I shift into neutral, the rough idle goes away. :confused:
That is likely an engine mount issue. Especially if it is a 4 cylinder engine. New mounts will only improve the condition for a short period of time. This is a characteristic common with 4 cylinder transverse engines.

CharlesA
June 18th, 2011, 04:23 AM
That is likely an engine mount issue. Especially if it is a 4 cylinder engine. New mounts will only improve the condition for a short period of time. This is a characteristic common with 4 cylinder transverse engines.
Thanks. Would never have thought of that.

Swagman
June 18th, 2011, 01:54 PM
I bought my car brand new back in 1993. It'll be 19 years old this August and has never let me down.

Unlike a lot of other countries, the UK has a compulsory vehicle road-worthiness test every year. We have always taken our vehicle to the strictest test station (who ONLY do the test, so they are not touting for other work) and apart from twice where it failed on worn CV boot gaiters it has passed every year.

I put this down to the fact I bought it BRAND NEW so it's only my feet that have made the carpet mucky ie: I can only blame ME for anything that's gone wrong.

It's still on the original clutch, I changed the exhaust for the first time last year, the fanbelt last month (it wasn't broken but looking dodgy). And you wouldn't believe how the radiator is holding up..Actually I'll take a pic of it and post it here in a minute.

I've put 140k miles on the odo since new.

If you are going to keep the vehicle for about a decade then it pays MAJOR dividends to buy brand new (if you can afford the initial outlay)

I want the vehicle to last one more year as I'm saving up for a Honda Civic 2.2 litre diesel

Reason for choosing that as our next vehicle ?

Well, you can't really knock Jap vehicles can you. That and our Road tax (over here it's known as Vehicle Excise Duty) is rated on the emissions (pollution) the engine emits.

I'm currently paying 125 pa VED for a 1.3 litre petrol, the Honda is just 115 pa for a 2.2 litre. Larger than 1.4 litre petrol is 199 pa

And I like the shape of the vehicle.. It's not just another brick shape with the corners rounded off.

[edit]

Pic of Rad

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1036/radh.th.jpg (http://img580.imageshack.us/i/radh.jpg/)

mips
June 18th, 2011, 02:18 PM
It's still on the original clutch, I changed the exhaust for the first time last year, the fanbelt last month (it wasn't broken but looking dodgy). And you wouldn't believe how the radiator is holding up..Actually I'll take a pic of it and post it here in a minute.

I've put 140k miles on the odo since new.

No cambelt change?
That radiator won't get you very far over here in our climate before the car starts overheating.

I don't believe you have to buy new, it's a waste of money. I got my Honda second hand at 40k km and it's now close to 300k km and it's been trouble free. As long as a vehicle has a full service history and has not been involved in any accidents you should be good to go. Oh, stick to Japanese cars as they last, you don't see many old German cars on the road.

handy
June 18th, 2011, 02:27 PM
Well, my 1995 VS Commodore has ~248k kilometres on the odometer. It passes the roadworthy every year for the 4 years or so I've owned it. I don't do my own mechanical work anymore, because it hurts, so I get a good local mechanic to service the vehicle every year (I do 10k k/year these days), I also had him change all of the fluids in the vehicle.

I expect that I'll get another 15 -> 20 years out of the vehicle, as these motors last a long time & there is no hint of any problems in the transmission. I do country miles, not city miles, so life is a lot easier for the vehicle, not stop & start & very short hops. It does the vast majority of its running at optimum operating temperature & not cold, the drive into town is about 13k's each way.

The car cost me $2,500- when I bought it (which was a pretty good price at the time), it currently has an insurance market value of $3,500-. There is no way in the world I would want to spend upwards of ~$20,000- on a vehicle that does the exact same job as this one does;- very reliably, comfortably & on LPG quite economically considering it has a 3.8 litre engine.

Swagman
June 18th, 2011, 04:13 PM
No cambelt change?
stick to Japanese cars as they last, you don't see many old German cars on the road.

I changed the cambelt at 70k.. I suppose it really should be changed again now it has another 70k on it

Good point about not seeing too many old German cars

daverich
June 18th, 2011, 05:18 PM
I changed the cambelt at 70k.. I suppose it really should be changed again now it has another 70k on it

Good point about not seeing too many old German cars

I change mine every 30k-40k, it just isn't worth the risk!
;)

Kind regards

Dave Rich

Bandit
June 18th, 2011, 07:34 PM
Nice thanks. The "rough idle" feels like it's in tune with the firing of each cylinder, if that makes sense. I'll give that a shot. :)

The strange part is that if I shift into neutral, the rough idle goes away. :confused:
It idles at lower RPMs when in gear, plus then torsion is being diverted to your wheels, making the effect worse. This is even more noticeable on front wheel drive autos. Your knock sensors will try to idle up the engine to prevent the shudder to some degree, but not always able to fully compensate without idling the car to high. What the shudder is caused from is high compression, most of the time going to a higher octane gas will reduce or eliminate this. Higher Octane gas burns slower and longer. Which in terms burns more efficiently then a quick burn that actually will not burn all of the gas completely, which is why cars were equiped with EGR systems starting late 70's. The Quad plugs will help aid in burning the gas more efficiently even with lower octane gas by shooting off multiple/simultaneous sparks.

Hope this helps shed some light on it. :-)

CharlesA
June 18th, 2011, 11:45 PM
It idles at lower RPMs when in gear, plus then torsion is being diverted to your wheels, making the effect worse. This is even more noticeable on front wheel drive autos. Your knock sensors will try to idle up the engine to prevent the shudder to some degree, but not always able to fully compensate without idling the car to high. What the shudder is caused from is high compression, most of the time going to a higher octane gas will reduce or eliminate this. Higher Octane gas burns slower and longer. Which in terms burns more efficiently then a quick burn that actually will not burn all of the gas completely, which is why cars were equiped with EGR systems starting late 70's. The Quad plugs will help aid in burning the gas more efficiently even with lower octane gas by shooting off multiple/simultaneous sparks.

Hope this helps shed some light on it. :-)
Thanks. That helps a lot. :)

73ckn797
June 19th, 2011, 01:20 AM
Your knock sensors will try to idle up the engine to prevent the shudder to some degree, but not always able to fully compensate without idling the car to high.

Knock sensors are designed to do exactly what they are named. Sense internal knocks in the engine and adjust timing to eliminate the knock. If the engine idles so low that it creates a knock then there are other issues going on.

Bandit
June 19th, 2011, 06:52 AM
Knock sensors are designed to do exactly what they are named. Sense internal knocks in the engine and adjust timing to eliminate the knock. If the engine idles so low that it creates a knock then there are other issues going on.
Not always. Sometimes **** poor engine design cant be fixed with a few knock sensors. BTW, yes Knock sensor will adjust timing if timing is retarded, but when timing is fine. Like most cases after the car is warmed up, the computer will raise the RPMs slightly. I may have not been clear enough on this, but I wasnt trying to teach auto-mechanics 101.
But dont worry, I am 33 and I have been working on cars since I was 12 when I started building automatic transmissions in my dads shop because it paid A LOT more then allowance. Having a 140IQ really really helps with mechanical skills. :-)

psusi
June 19th, 2011, 03:35 PM
I seem to see plenty of old Volkswagon's on the road, and even some BMWs.

HermanAB
June 19th, 2011, 06:10 PM
Hmm, a Blazer with 140,000km is still good for another 100,000 or so, at which point you would need to replace some CV joints and then you can drive it another 100,000.

The Blazer has a 6 cylinder motor. A 6 banger runs at lower revs than a 4 banger and an 8 banger even slower still. Less revs, means less wear per km and therefore longer life.

My Dodge with its 5.7 litre, 8 cylinder hemi, cruises at 120km/h at only 2000 revs. It should be fine for 400,000km - if I can avoid having a major accident on the road.

Remember, the best second hand car, is your own...

uRock
June 19th, 2011, 06:31 PM
I seem to see plenty of old Volkswagon's on the road, and even some BMWs.

Same here. I even see quite a few of the old diesel Mercedes rolling around. I have a VW Rabbit, which I plan to see just how long I can make it last. My next car will be a truck, but it won't be new. I prefer to buy one in decent working order and make it last 15-20 years.

handy
June 20th, 2011, 02:49 AM
+1

I'm into recycling too, rather than adding to the environmental demands involved in the production of a new car. Which are by no means small:

http://www.nextgreencar.com/ratings.php

http://www.edf.org/article.cfm?contentID=549

http://environment.about.com/od/environmentfriendlyautos/a/new_old_cars.htm

http://www.acea.be/index.php/news/news_detail/production_car_makers_reduce_environmental_impact/

doas777
June 20th, 2011, 03:02 AM
I'm getting kinda meh on warranties lately, after my gf's Hyundai experience.
her warranty specifies that to remain valid, the car must recieve thousands of dollars in dealership-only service at specific milestones in the cars life (30/60/90K miles), at the owners expense.

since we have had no issues with the mobile (I'll admit perhaps due to the regular maintenance), this seems more like a scam than a benefit of purchasing new.

Myself, I'll probably always buy used, and just be careful about my shopping. having a nice car just doesn't mean that much to me. as long as its safe, comfortable, and fully functional, I'm just fine.

KiwiNZ
June 20th, 2011, 03:07 AM
I'm getting kinda meh on warranties lately, after my gf's Hyundai experience.
her warranty specifies that to remain valid, the car must recieve thousands of dollars in dealership-only service at specific milestones in the cars life (30/60/90K miles), at the owners expense.

since we have had no issues with the mobile (I'll admit perhaps due to the regular maintenance), this seems more like a scam than a benefit of purchasing new.

Myself, I'll probably always buy used, and just be careful about my shopping. having a nice car just doesn't mean that much to me. as long as its safe, comfortable, and fully functional, I'm just fine.


Go for new car makers that offer free servicing with their warranty. All three of our vehicles have that. I haven't paid for servicing for years.

handy
June 20th, 2011, 03:29 AM
Go for new car makers that offer free servicing with their warranty. All three of our vehicles have that. I haven't paid for servicing for years.

But how much more do you pay for the car to get that benefit?

You don't get something for nothing, most especially in any business that care dealerships are associated with.

KiwiNZ
June 20th, 2011, 03:39 AM
But how much more do you pay for the car to get that benefit?

You don't get something for nothing, most especially in any business that care dealerships are associated with.

An example I am looking at upgrading my 3 year old Audi A5 to a new Audi A6 The change over will cost me about $10,000. I have paid for no servicing, no tyres, the only fluids I have paid for is petrol. That is $65 per week for luxury motoring.

My wifes 1 year old Mazda 3 MPS has cost her no servicing etc in its first year.

Our 18 month SUV is the same has cost us nothing in Service cost.

handy
June 20th, 2011, 03:42 AM
An example I am looking at upgrading my 3 year old Audi A5 to a new Audi A6 The change over will cost me about $10,000. I have paid for no servicing, no tyres, the only fluids I have paid for is petrol. That is $65 per week for luxury motoring.

My wifes 1 year old Mazda 3 MPS has cost her no servicing etc in its first year.

Our 18 month SUV is the same has cost us nothing in Service cost.

You still don't get something for nothing. You paid for it somewhere along the line. Business is business.

KiwiNZ
June 20th, 2011, 03:46 AM
You still don't get something for nothing. You paid for it somewhere along the line. Business is business.

I agree, but with the price I have negotiated on the Audi it is heavily in my advantage.

handy
June 20th, 2011, 04:09 AM
I agree, but with the price I have negotiated on the Audi it is heavily in my advantage.

Well done. :)

There exist circumstances both microeconomic & macroeconomic, that are beyond our control that can cause business deals to swing either in our favour or through to the other extreme. It is nice when things fall into place for us at just the right time. :)

PhillyPhil
June 20th, 2011, 04:23 AM
An example I am looking at upgrading my 3 year old Audi A5 to a new Audi A6 The change over will cost me about $10,000. I have paid for no servicing, no tyres, the only fluids I have paid for is petrol. That is $65 per week for luxury motoring.

Look at it from the point of view of the dealer: they made a profit from you in the initial transaction, and even with servicing costs they make a profit from your upgrade every three years - they give you a car that doesn't really cost all that much to make (relative to it's price), you give them a three year old one they can sell and $10k.
Much, much better than selling you a car and waiting until it falls apart before selling you another one.

BTW, using "luxury" to describe a car that can be bought sub $50k in Europe is pushing things a bit... ;)

giddyup306
June 20th, 2011, 04:30 AM
Knock sensors are designed to do exactly what they are named. Sense internal knocks in the engine and adjust timing to eliminate the knock. If the engine idles so low that it creates a knock then there are other issues going on.


Not always. Sometimes **** poor engine design cant be fixed with a few knock sensors. BTW, yes Knock sensor will adjust timing if timing is retarded, but when timing is fine. Like most cases after the car is warmed up, the computer will raise the RPMs slightly. I may have not been clear enough on this, but I wasnt trying to teach auto-mechanics 101.
But dont worry, I am not 33 and I been working on cars since I was 12 when I started building automatic transmissions in my dads shop because it paid A LOT more then allowance. Having a 140IQ really really helps with mechanical skills. :-)


Just for clarification, the KS doesn't control engine RPM, that is adjusted by the IAC (idle air control) motor. The KS is a Piezo-electric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezo-electric) sensor retards timing if it detects spark-knock.

Also the opposite is true about raising engine RPMs. When you first start a cold vehicle, it will raise RPMs so that it can get up to operation temperature and go into closed-loop faster.

KiwiNZ
June 20th, 2011, 04:39 AM
Look at it from the point of view of the dealer: they made a profit from you in the initial transaction, and even with servicing costs they make a profit from your upgrade every three years - they give you a car that doesn't really cost all that much to make (relative to it's price), you give them a three year old one they can sell and $10k.
Much, much better than selling you a car and waiting until it falls apart before selling you another one.

BTW, using "luxury" to describe a car that can be bought sub $50k in Europe is pushing things a bit... ;)

I take it you drive something way better than an Audi A6

uRock
June 20th, 2011, 04:39 AM
Knock sensors do have the ability to raise the engine's RPMs when a knock is caused by low RPMs, which does happen.

Bandit
June 20th, 2011, 05:31 AM
Knock sensors do have the ability to raise the engine's RPMs when a knock is caused by low RPMs, which does happen.

++ Thanks uRock

And does happen on high compression engines. Anything with 10/1 compression or better these days is going to shake a good bit at low RPMs. Adjusting the timing is not going to clear all of it up.

handy
June 20th, 2011, 05:34 AM
I live in the country (not that, that matters much in this country in this instance) & see so many people driving around in Land Cruiser wagons that have cost them over $80k!

I think it is bizarre for someone to spend so much money on a motor vehicle. A bit over 20 years ago it cost us less than $20k to build our house [edit:] on an acre of land that cost us $8k /edit. It is now worth $360k.

In 20 years, that Land Cruiser will be worth next to nothing, beyond what you can get for the over 2 tonnes of scrap.

Where is the sense in making such a large investment into something that depreciates so rapidly (apart from the ongoing maintenance & running costs & highly likely financial fees & interest)?

Grenage
June 20th, 2011, 09:52 AM
I live in the country (not that, that matters much in this country in this instance) & see so many people driving around in Land Cruiser wagons that have cost them over $80k!

I think it is bizarre for someone to spend so much money on a motor vehicle. A bit over 20 years ago it cost us less than $20k to build our house [edit:] on an acre of land that cost us $8k /edit. It is now worth $360k.

In 20 years, that Land Cruiser will be worth next to nothing, beyond what you can get for the over 2 tonnes of scrap.

Where is the sense in making such a large investment into something that depreciates so rapidly (apart from the ongoing maintenance & running costs & highly likely financial fees & interest)?

Disposable income and comfort; the same could be said of many, many things.

handy
June 20th, 2011, 10:06 AM
Disposable income and comfort; the same could be said of many, many things.

I agree. Though I was addressing the topic.

If we start speaking about the inequitable use & share of the planets resources, & the control of same by various groups, then we will have ventured beyond the safety of this topic, which will ensure that this thread will get closed pretty quickly I think.

KiwiNZ
June 20th, 2011, 10:34 AM
For a lot and I would say the vast majority, the selection of a motor vehicle to purchase is a life style choice and usage comes second and finally fiscal resources.

For me the SUV was required for ,(a) the towing of our boat and (b) for my photography hobby (c) the voluntary work I do and finally (d) to facilitate the mobility aids.

My Audi was indulgence, it cost a lot (over 100K) but I earned the money, can't take with you therefore I indulged.

My Wife's car the Mazda 3 MPS is for her work and indulging her love of powerful zippy cars.

The SUV is not a suburban tractor, it works hard pulling the boat and goes off road regularly.

handy
June 20th, 2011, 10:42 AM
In the end it comes down to an individuals values & no one can truly validate them other than themselves.

Values that we hold valid at one time in our life we may consider to be totally invalid at another.

Values surely have shown themselves to be extremely dynamic...

KiwiNZ
June 20th, 2011, 10:54 AM
In the end it comes down to an individuals values & no one can truly validate them other than themselves.

Values that we hold valid at one time in our life we may consider to be totally invalid at another.

Values surely have shown themselves to be extremely dynamic...

Very true.

When I became disabled and having found myself in Coronary care with wires and breathing tubes etc connected to me I realised that mortality is real and I cannot take my cash with me. If I was to have the luxuries then have them.

Also my time spent doing rescue work in Aceh , Christchurch and others I also realise it can so easily be taken away.

So yes I changed, I changed a lot, some may say I am selfish buying such luxuries but those person would not see the whole picture.

Grenage
June 20th, 2011, 10:58 AM
Quite so, it's all very subjective; I find cars as boring as hell, opting for a sports bike for fun, and a car for chores. It's foolish to project one's values onto others.

Bandit
June 20th, 2011, 02:06 PM
For a lot and I would say the vast majority, the selection of a motor vehicle to purchase is a life style choice and usage comes second and finally fiscal resources.

For me the SUV was required for ,(a) the towing of our boat and (b) for my photography hobby (c) the voluntary work I do and finally (d) to facilitate the mobility aids.

My wife and I are really wanting a SUV style of vehicle. Currently I am just fet up having to "stop-drop-and-roll" to get into my grandam. Its just to low to the ground for me. I really want something I can just copen the door and get into without having to squat down or worry about hitting my head. Its really starting to feel like a gown man riding a 10 year olds go-cart.

But we was looking a possibly a Chevy Equinox (http://www.chevrolet.com/equinox/), its a cross over and supposed to get as good of gas mileage as my GrandAm.. Price seems somewhat reasonable. I was thinking about getting one that was 1 year old and a ex-lease vehicle. You can get those only a year old, super low mileage and priced around 12-15k. about 6k to 10k lower then current models MSRP.

giddyup306
June 20th, 2011, 11:38 PM
Knock sensors do have the ability to raise the engine's RPMs when a knock is caused by low RPMs, which does happen.


That's not how knock sensors work. As a matter of fact, the older EEC-IV systems don't adjust timing until you're above 1,500 RPM. Knock sensors are to prevent engine damage, not for idle quality.

The PCM uses input from the crank/cam sensor and adjust injector puilsewidth and IAC steps. If the KS detects detonation, it retards the ignition. If it was to raise RPM it would have to increase the advance. It it has sparkknock, it's not going to advance it even more.

Here's two experiments you can do. Find a scanner that supports live PIDs. Take off a vacuum like. Watch how the IAC and injector PW reacts to it. Also you can find an older EEC vehicle and manually advance the distributor. Watch how the idle increases. Now do both tests, but unplug the KS.

This isn't theory, I've been specializing in drievability for 10 years. :)

Bandit
June 20th, 2011, 11:42 PM
This isn't theory, I've been specializing in drievability for 10 years. :)
Well you havent specialised in spelling.
BTW, your still 10 full years or more behind me. Trust experience.

giddyup306
June 20th, 2011, 11:55 PM
Well you havent specialised in spelling.


Neither have you (irony is ironic).



BTW, your still 10 full years or more behind me. Trust experience.

Okay then list all your credentials. I have an associates degree in automotive technology from a NATEF certified school. I'm currently Ford , ASE (Automotive Service Excellence), ATRA (Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association), AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association), and Moog certified. I'm also an iATN (International Automotive Technicians Network) member. I've worked as a driveability tech at 6 shops, three of them were dealerships. I have four years of formal education, not counting classes that I had to take when I was in the field.

There's a difference between being a weekend mechanic and being a professional. I think you need to stick to computers.

handy
June 21st, 2011, 12:24 AM
Come on, there is no need to get the tape measure out...

CharlesA
June 21st, 2011, 12:53 AM
Come on, there is no need to get the tape measure out...
Indeed. No need to derail the thread.

uRock
June 21st, 2011, 01:02 AM
That's not how knock sensors work.

Knock sensors only sense knocks. One of the CPUs actually makes the changes in engine speed when a knock is sensed. I have had an engine knock and noticed the engine's RPMs go higher. I may not specialize in automotive, but I have worked full time as an auto mechanic, made repairs to my own vehicles, rebuilt carbs, swapped engines in cars, trucks, M1A1 tanks and UH60A Blackhawks. I have a little common sense as to how vehicles work and how to know what I hear, when I hear it.

KiwiNZ
June 21st, 2011, 01:24 AM
The easiest way to stop pre-ignition was to add Tetraethyl to petrol. However that is not good for humans and not good for Catalytic Converters.Other ways and easier is a well maintained engine, tuned, that is "Hot" run to eliminate deposits in the combustion chamber etc

Eliminating Knock or abnormal detonation is harder, increasing the Octane level of the fuel used is the simplest. Ensure the ignition timing is set correctly and the correct spark plugs are used. Also fresh fuel is used, older decomposing fuel burns at a lower temp and thus may not completely detonate.

Bandit
June 21st, 2011, 05:30 AM
Come on, there is no need to get the tape measure out...

Im not. Cant argue with all the intellect. :rolleyes:
Just gonna be a better man and fold.

giddyup306
June 21st, 2011, 05:24 PM
Knock sensors only sense knocks. One of the CPUs actually makes the changes in engine speed when a knock is sensed. I have had an engine knock and noticed the engine's RPMs go higher. I may not specialize in automotive, but I have worked full time as an auto mechanic, made repairs to my own vehicles, rebuilt carbs, swapped engines in cars, trucks, M1A1 tanks and UH60A Blackhawks. I have a little common sense as to how vehicles work and how to know what I hear, when I hear it.

Your talking about a base engine knock, not spark knock. The pcm is trying to compensate for the lack of a power impulse. That has nothing to do with the knock sensor, it doesn't detect that sort of knock.

PhillyPhil
June 22nd, 2011, 04:32 AM
I take it you drive something way better than an Audi A6

Er, sorry, didn't know this thread was a competition to compare cars...

I drive a 2005 Toyota Corolla - I'm a classic example of the eternal student, and I have the income to match ;) (Not that I'm into cars anyway - my ideal car would probably just be a normal, largish station wagon, even if I had money to spare)

The car industry are masters of market segmentation. This is an example of one segmentation method: the same car can be perceived and marketed differently in different countries, and tripling or quadrupling the price isn't uncommon. Toyata/Lexus is the most extreme example - change the badge over and jack the sale price sky high.

Don't get me wrong, I like the A6, it's a nice car, but Germans can buy it roughly for what Australians pay for mid range Holden Commodores (the comparison becomes even closer when you factor in the higher average wage of Germans). It's definitely not what I'd call luxury.

On a related note, I've lived in China for quite a few years, and the A6 is massively popular there: you can't cross the road without being almost run down by half a dozen. You aren't anyone in business in China until you own a black A6...

DZ*
June 22nd, 2011, 09:31 PM
On a related note, I've lived in China for quite a few years, and the A6 is massively popular there: you can't cross the road without being almost run down by half a dozen. You aren't anyone in business in China until you own a black A6...

The same thing in Russia, but it doesn't mean that cars are any cheaper over there. Even a "normal" car like Toyota Camry (Russian-built) costs 34K-48K over there (http://www.toyota.ru/cars/new_cars/camry/price.aspx).

The larger disparity, the more people with some money seem to be willing to spend on luxury.

I mean, does A6 provide 5 times more comfort than a regular family sedan, and is there a tolerance upper bound beyond which a person can no longer tell the difference? :-)

KiwiNZ
June 22nd, 2011, 09:47 PM
Er, sorry, didn't know this thread was a competition to compare cars...

I drive a 2005 Toyota Corolla - I'm a classic example of the eternal student, and I have the income to match ;) (Not that I'm into cars anyway - my ideal car would probably just be a normal, largish station wagon, even if I had money to spare)

The car industry are masters of market segmentation. This is an example of one segmentation method: the same car can be perceived and marketed differently in different countries, and tripling or quadrupling the price isn't uncommon. Toyata/Lexus is the most extreme example - change the badge over and jack the sale price sky high.

Don't get me wrong, I like the A6, it's a nice car, but Germans can buy it roughly for what Australians pay for mid range Holden Commodores (the comparison becomes even closer when you factor in the higher average wage of Germans). It's definitely not what I'd call luxury.

On a related note, I've lived in China for quite a few years, and the A6 is massively popular there: you can't cross the road without being almost run down by half a dozen. You aren't anyone in business in China until you own a black A6...

Yes price gets bumped due to transport costs and Forex rates etc however it is relative, the same escalation happens to Toyota, Ford, BMW etc so the price differential is still the same. We have no local vehicle manufacturing or assembly in New Zealand so all our vehicles are imported assembled.

So with that said an Audi is way superior than a Toyota Camry, anything Kia or Hyundai, anything Holden etc etc etc.

They are comparable to BMW, and Mercedes Benz.

uRock
June 22nd, 2011, 09:55 PM
Yes price gets bumped due to transport costs and Forex rates etc however it is relative, the same escalation happens to Toyota, Ford, BMW etc so the price differential is still the same. We have no local vehicle manufacturing or assembly in New Zealand so all our vehicles are imported assembled.

So with that said an Audi is way superior than a Toyota Camry, anything Kia or Hyundai, anything Holden etc etc etc.

They are comparable to BMW, and Mercedes Benz.
Audi is sweet. I have seen way too many Mercedes on flatbeds headed to the dealer for warranty work. Audi has the get up and go and the safety features that American, Japanese and Korean automakers will not implement until forced by law. When I purchased my VDub, I was sold on the safety features. At the time the Ford Escort had only two airbags, while the VDub had ten dual stage airbags. I find it odd that the US started requiring all new cars to have ESP traction control yet the outrageously priced Dodge Viper doesn't have it. At least that is what I read on Car & Driver's site last year.

KiwiNZ
June 22nd, 2011, 10:37 PM
Audi is sweet. I have seen way too many Mercedes on flatbeds headed to the dealer for warranty work. Audi has the get up and go and the safety features that American, Japanese and Korean automakers will not implement until forced by law. When I purchased my VDub, I was sold on the safety features. At the time the Ford Escort had only two airbags, while the VDub had ten dual stage airbags. I find it odd that the US started requiring all new cars to have ESP traction control yet the outrageously priced Dodge Viper doesn't have it. At least that is what I read on Car & Driver's site last year.


My Father was a Motor Engineer he always said that the Japanese Motors are awesome, I recall him showing me the inside of a Toyota Corolla engine that had done 200,000kms and a Ford that had done similar KMs. the ware on the Cylinders bearings big ends etc was negligible. Even putting calipers in the bore showed that they were as new for measurements and consistency.

The Ford however was a different story, slack bearings and big ends, a degree of piston slap and worn cam shaft and gudgeon's.

He also used to say that if you want excellent overall engineering, build quality and materials and safety go German. I will grant you though Mercedes has slipped of late with their build quality.

As for safety I will not buy a motor vehicle that does not have a 5 Star safety rating. I believe that all new vehicles should have Traction, stability and Yaw control, ABS with brake force assist, at least 6 airbags including curtain airbags.

I would like to see the planned removal of all cars that don't have these features from the roads and the eventual banned sales of them by dealers.

Bandit
June 22nd, 2011, 10:45 PM
As for safety I will not buy a motor vehicle that does not have a 5 Star safety rating. I believe that all new vehicles should have Traction, stability and Yaw control, ABS with brake force assist, at least 6 airbags including curtain airbags.

Yea the older I get the more I find myself looking for the same thing.

Speaking of German, I really would like a new 3 series BMW with moonroof.

PhillyPhil
June 24th, 2011, 02:57 AM
Yes price gets bumped due to transport costs and Forex rates etc however it is relative, the same escalation happens to Toyota, Ford, BMW etc so the price differential is still the same. No, you're missing the point. The price is also put up just because it can be for some markets, where the product's perceived value is higher, for whatever reason.
We have no local vehicle manufacturing or assembly in New Zealand so all our vehicles are imported assembled.

So with that said an Audi is way superior than a Toyota Camry, anything Kia or Hyundai, anything Holden etc etc etc.

They are comparable to BMW, and Mercedes Benz.

Well that's all a matter of opinion ;)
How do you define 'superior'? Price? Manufacture quality? (I'm pretty sure Honda and Toyota have the lowest defect rates in the world)

On a luxury level I would rate Audi (slightly) higher than those Asian/Australian brands you mentioned too, but I certainly wouldn't put them up there with BMW or Mercedes.

BandD
June 24th, 2011, 03:02 AM
I'd look into diesel. Seriously, Check out the VW Jetta TDI. I know 2 people who have one and both report 50+ MPG on the highway. Plus the diesel engines are basically bulletproof and will lost 200,000+ miles NO PROBLEM!

Derxst
June 24th, 2011, 03:12 AM
So long as the car can be serviced and parts are available, continue to drive the old car.

When maintenance per year starts to exceed the amount you would spend per year in car payments, then that is when it is time to get a new car.

Also, with a paid off decade old car, be sure to carry the minimum amount of insurance necessary. That will save some money.

With a financed new car (in most areas), you are required to carry full insurance.

I am driving a 1988 Volkswagen Fox with 264,000 miles and I spend about $1000 a year in maintenance. Car is still in great condition. The lack of payment also allows me to by the toys I want.

uRock
June 24th, 2011, 05:16 AM
Last time I cut the insurance to "liability only" the price only went down by $20 a month. Later the vehicle was totaled in a "no fault" accident. I had no car, no rental and was stuck with public transportation until I could save up to buy another. In that case I wish I had paid a little more and had insurance to pay me the book value. It was a 5.0 mustang and the engine and drive train were unharmed by the accident. I did manage to sell it for 1500 to an enthusiast who wanted the four-in-the-floor tranny and the Mallory ignition system.

In the accident, I had T-Boned a Ford Escort who had run a red light. I was going about 50mph when it happened. No witnesses stopped, so the judge could not place either of us at fault.

KiwiNZ
June 24th, 2011, 09:52 AM
No, you're missing the point. The price is also put up just because it can be for some markets, where the product's perceived value is higher, for whatever reason.

Well that's all a matter of opinion ;)
How do you define 'superior'? Price? Manufacture quality? (I'm pretty sure Honda and Toyota have the lowest defect rates in the world)

On a luxury level I would rate Audi (slightly) higher than those Asian/Australian brands you mentioned too, but I certainly wouldn't put them up there with BMW or Mercedes.

I am not missing points, I would suggest that the point missing rests elsewhere.

What Top Gear said about my current Audi....

Quality
"When it comes to making a car feel expensive and well built, Audi has a solid grasp on the concept. The A5 feels like it'll last until the universe implodes."

Handling
"The A5 is one of a new breed of Audis that can ride and handle at the same time. There's decent feedback from the wheel - unusual for a mass-market Audi - and for what looks like quite a big car, exceptional body control."

Overall
"The Audi A5 is a great car. Slightly divisive looks, but a great drive and superb engines make for a fantastic cruiser. Almost too quiet for some."


I will concede that I am also considering the BMW 528i.

PhillyPhil
June 24th, 2011, 10:34 AM
I am not missing points, I would suggest that the point missing rests elsewhere.
The point was the reason for the massive difference in price between Germany and NZ (and other countries).

What Top Gear said about my current Audi....

Quality
''When it comes to making a car feel expensive and well built, Audi has a solid grasp on the concept. The A5 feels like it'll last until the universe implodes.''

Handling
''The A5 is one of a new breed of Audis that can ride and handle at the same time. There's decent feedback from the wheel - unusual for a mass-market Audi - and for what looks like quite a big car, exceptional body control.''

Overall
''The Audi A5 is a great car. Slightly divisive looks, but a great drive and superb engines make for a fantastic cruiser. Almost too quiet for some.''


I will concede that I am also considering the BMW 528i.
Yes...? I'm not sure what your point is; no-one's said Audi don't make nice cars.

Bandit
June 24th, 2011, 01:15 PM
I'd look into diesel. Seriously, Check out the VW Jetta TDI. I know 2 people who have one and both report 50+ MPG on the highway. Plus the diesel engines are basically bulletproof and will lost 200,000+ miles NO PROBLEM!

I am not sure I would go that route. For over the past year Diesel has been going for about $3.80-$3.90 per gallon while gas has been going for around $3.25-$3.40 and VW offers a Turbo Charged Jetta that runs on gas that gets 42+ MPG.

I may be wrong, it is to early in the morning for me. But I dont see the extra 8MPG and 0.50c cost being a economically better solution. Unless.. your going to be making your own bio diesel. Then in that case id go for it.

uRock
June 24th, 2011, 05:00 PM
I am not sure I would go that route. For over the past year Diesel has been going for about $3.80-$3.90 per gallon while gas has been going for around $3.25-$3.40 and VW offers a Turbo Charged Jetta that runs on gas that gets 42+ MPG.

I may be wrong, it is to early in the morning for me. But I dont see the extra 8MPG and 0.50c cost being a economically better solution. Unless.. your going to be making your own bio diesel. Then in that case id go for it.

The down side is, if you don't already have a lead foot, VW will issue one. Especially if you get the GTI with the shifter paddles on the steering wheel.

mips
June 24th, 2011, 05:25 PM
Yes price gets bumped due to transport costs and Forex rates etc however it is relative, the same escalation happens to Toyota, Ford, BMW etc so the price differential is still the same. We have no local vehicle manufacturing or assembly in New Zealand so all our vehicles are imported assembled.


Here's an interesting bit of info. BMW 3-series vehicles manufactured in South Africa, exported to Australia and then imported back to South Africa are cheaper than the locally sold ones. Read an article about this a few years ago and the same probably also goes for other brands. We have a local motor manufacturing industry (BMW, VW, Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Noble etc etc, mostly for export) but the industry is heavily protected by government and we end up paying high prices for the products which the general populous is fed up with.

KiwiNZ
June 24th, 2011, 10:43 PM
Here's an interesting bit of info. BMW 3-series vehicles manufactured in South Africa, exported to Australia and then imported back to South Africa are cheaper than the locally sold ones. Read an article about this a few years ago and the same probably also goes for other brands. We have a local motor manufacturing industry (BMW, VW, Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Noble etc etc, mostly for export) but the industry is heavily protected by government and we end up paying high prices for the products which the general populous is fed up with.

New Zealand does not have a local manufacturing or assembly of Motor Vehicles therefore there is no need for protection. All our Cars are imported assembled so all we have is the usual import duty and Forex fluctuations.

PhillyPhil
June 24th, 2011, 11:04 PM
New Zealand does not have a local manufacturing or assembly of Motor Vehicles therefore there is no need for protection. All our Cars are imported assembled so all we have is the usual import duty and Forex fluctuations.

(I think) mips' point is that shipping costs and fluctuation in foreign exchange are unlikely to cause very large increases in price like you see in Audis from Germany to NZ.

I repeat, Audi's NZ pricing is high mainly because Audi can get away with artificially raising it - because although Audi is not really a luxury car maker (some of their top models may qualify?) they are perceived as one in NZ (and other countries).

uRock
June 24th, 2011, 11:07 PM
(I think) mips' point is that shipping costs and fluctuation in foreign exchange are unlikely to cause very large increases in price like you see in Audis from Germany to NZ.

I repeat, Audi's NZ pricing is high mainly because it can be - because although Audi is not really a luxury car maker (some of their top models may qualify?) they are perceived as one in NZ (and other countries).

If you've ever gotten out of a Honda Accord or Toyota family car and climbed into an A4, you will quickly notice the difference. Audi is Luxury. Luxury doesn't depend upon $$$, but build quality.

PhillyPhil
June 24th, 2011, 11:17 PM
If you've ever gotten out of a Honda Accord or Toyota family car and climbed into an A4, you will quickly notice the difference. Audi is Luxury. Luxury doesn't depend upon $$$, but build quality.

That may be your personal definition of luxury, but not everyone's.
As I've already said, I also consider a Toyota to be less luxurious than an Audi, but that doesn't make Audi a luxury car like a BMW.
As for build quality, Toyota has the lowest defect rate it the world (I actually thought it was number 2 to Honda, but apparently, in 2004 at least, it was the lowest: http://www.glresources.com/168.html) so you may want to revise your 'luxury' definition.

uRock
June 24th, 2011, 11:22 PM
That may be your personal definition of luxury, but not everyone's.
As I've already said, I also consider a Toyota to be less luxurious than an Audi, but that doesn't make Audi a luxury car like a BMW.
As for build quality, Toyota has the lowest defect rate it the world (I actually thought it was number 2 to Honda, but apparently, in 2004 at least, it was the lowest: http://www.glresources.com/168.html) so you may want to revise your 'luxury' definition.
I am guessing you missed that super huge recall? The one where cars were playing speed racer whether its driver was game or not.

Luxury means high quality.

PhillyPhil
June 24th, 2011, 11:28 PM
I am guessing you missed that super huge recall? The one where cars were playing speed racer whether its driver was game or not.

Oh, well, game over: of course one error in a model of Toyota's cruise control must mean all other manufacturer's jump ahead of the leader in quality, mustn't it? :rolleyes:
Does that mean you consider Toyotas before that recall to be luxury cars? ...I don't.
Luxury means high quality.'High quality' is also a subjective, undefined term (and I very much doubt many people would agree they are the same thing. Yes luxury *usually* implies high quality, but high quality does *not* imply luxury). But I personally would consider 'quality' to be inversely proportional to defect rate....so when I hear 'high quality' I think 'Toyota' (note that this has absolutely nothig to do with the fact I own a Toyota - I have no special regard for Toyota)

uRock
June 24th, 2011, 11:39 PM
Oh, well, game over: of course one error in a model of Toyota's cruise control must mean all other manufacturer's jump ahead of the lowest defect leader, mustn't it? :rolleyes:
Does that mean you consider Toyotas before that recall to be luxury cars? ...I don't. 'High quality' is also a subjective, undefined term (and I very much doubt many people would agree they are the same thing. Yes luxury *usually* implies high quality, but high quality does *not* imply luxury). But I personally would consider 'quality' to be inversely proportional to defect rate....so when I hear 'high quality' I think 'Toyota' (note that this has absolutely nothig to do with the fact I own a Toyota - I have no special regard for Toyota)

A problem they refused to act upon until every news agency and half of the world's governments stepped in.

PhillyPhil
June 24th, 2011, 11:43 PM
A problem they refused to act upon until every news agency and half of the world's governments stepped in.

You're now ignoring the argument, and making points about something else - I'm not going to participate in this new fork.

Audi is not 'luxury'.
High price does not mean luxury (see German vs NZ prices).
High quality does not mean luxury (else Toyota would be luxury, and the super high quality spade I use to dig in my garden would be luxury).

uRock
June 24th, 2011, 11:48 PM
Luxury, IMO, is having a vehicle with the HP to get up and go, comfortable seating, 5 star safety rating and resale value.

Bandit
June 25th, 2011, 01:43 AM
Luxury, IMO, is having a vehicle with the HP to get up and go, comfortable seating, 5 star safety rating and resale value.

Or when your in College, just one that cranks and the tires are in good shape. :D

uRock
June 25th, 2011, 04:37 AM
Or when your in College, just one that cranks and the tires are in good shape. :D

Very true. When I was in the Army, Luxury could have been a turret without leaky seals.

DZ*
June 25th, 2011, 05:04 AM
I am guessing you missed that super huge recall? The one where cars were playing speed racer whether its driver was game or not. Luxury means high quality.

Those Toyota recalls included Lexus models.

KiwiNZ
June 25th, 2011, 07:00 AM
You're now ignoring the argument, and making points about something else - I'm not going to participate in this new fork.

Audi is not 'luxury'.
High price does not mean luxury (see German vs NZ prices).
High quality does not mean luxury (else Toyota would be luxury, and the super high quality spade I use to dig in my garden would be luxury).

Next you will be telling us that Commodores, Barinas and Ford Falcons are good cars :rolleyes:

PhillyPhil
June 25th, 2011, 11:36 AM
Next you will be telling us that Commodores, Barinas and Ford Falcons are good cars :rolleyes:

? That's a comment out of nowhere...why would I say that? Are you avoiding what I actually *did* say?

Bandit
June 25th, 2011, 01:47 PM
About those Toyota/Lexus recalls. Anyone driving that doesnt have the common sense to either A) Cut the ignition off, or B) Just put the car in neutral. Should not have been driving IMHO. But thats my opinion. A lot of people drive Toyotas here, they matter of fact are finishing up building a new production plant here close in Blue Springs MS. But back to what I was saying, after that old lady told her story on the evening news, the only thing that came to mind is that she made me scared for my life. They should have pulled that stupid ________'s license and got HER off the road.

IMHO of course..

JRV
June 25th, 2011, 02:28 PM
buy a super cheap, economical car and pay all cash if you can. Run it until its dead. Worst thing people can do is live with constant car payments. You seem to be making a wise decision imo on your next car.

Cars are the single worst purchase to make. Money drainers.

Best day of my life is when I moved to Hong Kong and never had to own a car again.



Smellyman has it right, depreciation and interest are the worst investments you can make.

uRock
June 25th, 2011, 07:08 PM
About those Toyota/Lexus recalls. Anyone driving that doesnt have the common sense to either A) Cut the ignition off, or B) Just put the car in neutral. Should not have been driving IMHO. But thats my opinion. A lot of people drive Toyotas here, they matter of fact are finishing up building a new production plant here close in Blue Springs MS. But back to what I was saying, after that old lady told her story on the evening news, the only thing that came to mind is that she made me scared for my life. They should have pulled that stupid ________'s license and got HER off the road.

IMHO of course..
Supposedly she tried killing the engine and changing gears and nothing worked, which I find hard to believe. Every car I have owned has jumped out of gear when moving if I hit the shifter from drive to neutral.

mips
June 25th, 2011, 07:19 PM
Climbing on the brakes would be a good start I reckon.

corrytonapple
June 26th, 2011, 03:47 AM
A problem they refused to act upon until every news agency and half of the world's governments stepped in.


Or when your in College, just one that cranks and the tires are in good shape. :D


Next you will be telling us that Commodores, Barinas and Ford Falcons are good cars :rolleyes:
:lolflag: That is all true.... :popcorn:

Supposedly she tried killing the engine and changing gears and nothing worked, which I find hard to believe. Every car I have owned has jumped out of gear when moving if I hit the shifter from drive to neutral.


Climbing on the brakes would be a good start I reckon.
Yeah, maybe her old grannyness means she did not have the strength to shift the car? She probably never gets it out of third gear....
It always works. It is like a car jumping the emergency brake on a flat road; It is not going to randomly not work.

Bandit
June 26th, 2011, 06:13 AM
Supposedly she tried killing the engine and changing gears and nothing worked, which I find hard to believe. Every car I have owned has jumped out of gear when moving if I hit the shifter from drive to neutral.

I can see the engine not shutting down for some reason. I had 64cc heads on my old trans am with Kieth Black flattops and it would "diesel" with me because of compression sometimes. But the transmission still has a cable ran to it to the best of my knowledge. Most models also have a neutral rev limiter for those cases and stupid 15 year olds that think 6000RPMs = kewl..




Climbing on the brakes would be a good start I reckon.
Thats what she did. For about 10 miles I believe. Which is bad because that can cause brake failure, and brakes could catch on fire. Which both can lead to huge repair cost or even a car burning up.

corrytonapple
June 26th, 2011, 01:58 PM
Maybe the car could have a sensor or computer that says "Hmm, she has been hitting the brakes for the past three miles as hard as she can, the car is going 60MPH, and the transmission is being jerked into neutral to no success. I should turn off the engine for her."

PCaddicted
August 17th, 2011, 10:21 AM
Hope I'm not necromancing this thread. 2 months since last reply mustn't be so long.
Don't waste money on a new car. Sell the old car and go buy yourself a utility_bicycle (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Utility_bicycle), that's the best choice ;-).