Is it morally ethical to help spammers [if they pay you]

[ki4jgt]

A certain group is employing me to build a web crawler to crawl the web for phone numbers and emails. I already have one of these programs pre-written. I thought it would be fun and kind of weird. So I did it one day out of utter boredom. Now, I'm wondering if I should hand over the code or not. The average bid on the job was $40. I bid $10 b/c I already had it coded. It also includes keywords from the site where the contact info was harvested so the company can target the person's interests, and avoids professional organisations, by ignoring emails which have the same domain as the webpage the email was found on.

Is it ethical to hand this over to a company which will probably use it to just fill up our inboxs with more of the stuff we hate?

[satanselbow]

Well you bid on the job! - so $10 says you thought it ethical it the time...

[ki4jgt]

Well you bid on the job! - so $10 says you thought it ethical it the time...

Yeah, but now I'm not so sure :-( I could always refuse.

[SoFl W]

If you have to ask, then it probably is against your morals.

They are going to make a heck of a lot more than $10.

[nrundy]

Hate spammers. Can;t you find another way to make $10? Maybe look to write code to destroy spammers ability to spam? I'd pay $20 to eliminate spammers.

[GWBouge]

I'd accept the job. Just so I could get their phone number and e-mail.

[ki4jgt]

If you have to ask, then it probably is against your morals.

They are going to make a heck of a lot more than $10.

Gracias for this. I've withdrawn my application. I know they'll probably get someone else to do it, but it won't be me :-)

[Dustin2128]

It's 10$...

[sisco311]

Are you asking if it's moral or if it's ethical. They are different things.

[e79]

I personally found disturbing the simple fact you considered at some point helping them knowingly....just feels weird.
I found it the same as asking : is it morally ethical to help someone doing somehting bad that could affect others if they pay you ? :(

[ki4jgt]

I personally found disturbing the simple fact you considered at some point helping them knowingly....just feels weird.
I found it the same as asking : is it morally ethical to help someone doing somehting bad that could affect others if they pay you ? :(

Well first, I looked at it as, people send other people advertisements by snail mail everyday. Then I was like: People don't usually get viruses which could cause their house to burn down everyday in snail mail.

[Dry Lips]

Gracias for this. I've withdrawn my application. I know they'll probably get someone else to do it, but it won't be me :-)

I think you've made the right decision. You won't regret it!

[ki4jgt]

Are you asking if it's moral or if it's ethical. They are different things.

A little of both: morally (meaning the rules by which people live life) and ethical (how we should feel about doing things)

So by the standards that most people expect to live (laws) is it ethical (Should I feel bad) about it?

[e79]

Well first, I looked at it as, people send other people advertisements by snail mail everyday. Then I was like: People don't usually get viruses which could cause their house to burn down everyday in snail mail.

Not mentioning the fact we don't know what they send exactly, I personaly simply hate spam, working against it everyday in my IT job ;)


A little of both: morally (meaning the rules by which people live life) and ethical (how we should feel about doing things)

So by the standards that most people expect to live (laws) is it ethical (Should I feel bad) about it?

You alone can decide whether you feel bad about it or not, it might be 'acceptable' by laws, but I found it unethical to bombard someone with crap mails :D

just my $0.02

[ki4jgt]

Hate spammers. Can;t you find another way to make $10? Maybe look to write code to destroy spammers ability to spam? I'd pay $20 to eliminate spammers.

I actually thought about this:

P2P style

All nodes would use pop3 accounts and enter that information into the program. Email programs would have a button installed which would mark a certain email as spam. When you hit the button, the program would broadcast that email address to 10 other users, who would in turn spam the spammer back. . . Something like:

Dear spammer,

This email is to inform you that:

XXX@domain.com no longer wishes to receive emails from you.
. . .
. . .
. . .
If you continue sending emails to this user, your email will continue to receive 10 emails for every 1 email you send to this user. Attached below is a 1.0 MB text file which states all our terms and legal rights to do this. Each email will contain a copy of this document, so you will have plenty of time and chances to read it over.

Thank you for your time. Please have a great day!

[pricetech]

Amusing. I had a similar quandary some years ago with someone who wanted a quote on a server. I didn't give much thought to what the server was to be used for (streaming strippers from a nightclub) initially, but when it set in, I decided I wasn't interested.

Got hooked backing up data / reinstalling windows for a woman who simply said she worked for a magazine publisher. She neglected to mention the magazine were all hard core porn. I had minor children at the time, so my shop, which was normally open to them, was off limits until I was done and the computer was gone.

It happens.

[ki4jgt]

Amusing. I had a similar quandary some years ago with someone who wanted a quote on a server. I didn't give much thought to what the server was to be used for (streaming strippers from a nightclub) initially, but when it set in, I decided I wasn't interested.

Got hooked backing up data / reinstalling windows for a woman who simply said she worked for a magazine publisher. She neglected to mention the magazine were all hard core porn. I had minor children at the time, so my shop, which was normally open to them, was off limits until I was done and the computer was gone.

It happens.

I could see that. As long as it's not influencing other people to the point where she's actually forcing them to watch it. But you never know what they're going to do with those emails. What they will send them, or if you'll be held responsible. I did specify to the group that I only do GPL licensed programs (Source code distribution was their problem) though, so I'm covered there.

[forrestcupp]

I know you've already made your decision, but I'll bet you could raise a lot more than $10 from people who want you to not give those guys your code.

[e79]

I actually thought about this:

P2P style

All nodes would use pop3 accounts and enter that information into the program. Email programs would have a button installed which would mark a certain email as spam. When you hit the button, the program would broadcast that email address to 10 other users, who would in turn spam the spammer back. . . Something like:

Dear spammer,

This email is to inform you that:

XXX@domain.com no longer wishes to receive emails from you.
. . .
. . .
. . .
If you continue sending emails to this user, your email will continue to receive 10 emails for every 1 email you send to this user. Attached below is a 1.0 MB text file which states all our terms and legal rights to do this. Each email will contain a copy of this document, so you will have plenty of time and chances to read it over.

Thank you for your time. Please have a great day!

Now you're talking ! I luv it :D But unfortunately most of the time the servers used to send some spam are legit but poorly configured in a way they allow open relays, and sometime the company is not even aware about it :( So you might end up spamming yourself a company who does'nt even know their server is used as an open relay lol

Have a great day too

[Irihapeti]

The trouble with bouncing spam is that it doesn't necessarily originate from the account in the header.

I - fortunately only once - received a spam email that was allegedly sent by me. I gather that this is quite common, and also a reason why bouncing isn't widely used any more.

[robert shearer]

Now you're talking ! I luv it :D But unfortunately most of the time the servers used to send some spam are legit but poorly configured in a way they allow open relays, and sometime the company is not even aware about it :( So you might end up spamming yourself a company who does'nt even know their server is used as an open relay lol

Have a great day too

So... that would make the companies with poorly configured servers configure them properly thus removing options from the spammers arsenal...?

can't be all bad then...;)

[ki4jgt]

I would just be worried about header editing. I think I'd also want to send a copy of the header to the person as well, just so they can run their own investigation, if they're legit.

[e79]

The trouble with bouncing spam is that it doesn't necessarily originate from the account in the header.

I - fortunately only once - received a spam email that was allegedly sent by me. I gather that this is quite common, and also a reason why bouncing isn't widely used any more.

Yup....talk about NDR spam ;)

[ki4jgt]

Why doesn't email protocol impliment GPG to fix this? I mean the server and clients could have a key, so the server knew it actually originated from that email. The recipient server could verify said key with the sending server, and then emails would no longer be able to be faked.

[rogue1987]

Is it ethical to hand this over to a company which will probably use it to just fill up our inboxs with more of the stuff we hate?

if you have to ask, then no

[undecim]

Take the $10, but give them faulty code.

[Irihapeti]

Take the $10, but give them faulty code.

I'm not sure that's very ethical, either.

In any case, it doesn't pay to p*&($%&* some people off. Wasn't there an anti-spam outfit that got into big trouble?

[sisco311]

A little of both: morally (meaning the rules by which people live life) and ethical (how we should feel about doing things)

So by the standards that most people expect to live (laws) is it ethical (Should I feel bad) about it?

I don't care

[doas777]

short answer, no.
long answer, definitely not for only 10$

[forrestcupp]

Get their email address and start spamming them. :)

[oldos2er]

Well first, I looked at it as, people send other people advertisements by snail mail everyday. Then I was like: People don't usually get viruses which could cause their house to burn down everyday in snail mail.

Snail mail is paid for by the companies sending it. Email spammers steal others' computer resources at little or no cost to themselves; they are thieves.

[juancarlospaco]

Build a web crawler to crawl the web for phone numbers and emails is not Spamm...

[ki4jgt]

Build a web crawler to crawl the web for phone numbers and emails is not Spamm...

No, but you don't know what the lists will be used for. I've considered selling lists to these companies (So I can verify them and all, make sure it's something legit and not some adult web company continued income, and wouldn't be bombarded with things that are annoying.)

[juancarlospaco]

No, but you don't know what the lists will be used for.

Too abstract... is like to say

"ISP help Spammers, you don't know what the Connections will be used for."

[ki4jgt]

Too abstract... is like to say

"ISP help Spammers, you don't know what the Connections will be used for."

Yes, but ISPs have legal responsibilities. If I ever did that, I would of course have to sign a legal document with the company as to what they could and could not sell the consumer, and the email addresses they would be allowed to use to do so.

[saphil]

I actually thought about this:

P2P style

All nodes would use pop3 accounts and enter that information into the program. Email programs would have a button installed which would mark a certain email as spam. When you hit the button, the program would broadcast that email address to 10 other users, who would in turn spam the spammer back. . . Something like:

Dear spammer,

This email is to inform you that:

XXX@domain.com no longer wishes to receive emails from you.
. . .
. . .
. . .
If you continue sending emails to this user, your email will continue to receive 10 emails for every 1 email you send to this user. Attached below is a 1.0 MB text file which states all our terms and legal rights to do this. Each email will contain a copy of this document, so you will have plenty of time and chances to read it over.

Thank you for your time. Please have a great day!
Problem is, most spam comes from spoofed addresses that don't really exist...
So... your victim would receive 10 "Undeliverable " notices for every spam they get.

-Wolf

[juancarlospaco]

Yes, but ISPs have legal responsibilities. If I ever did that, I would of course have to sign a legal document with the company as to what they could and could not sell the consumer, and the email addresses they would be allowed to use to do so.

Not move it out of concept, i can get the software to make Statistics, for random example,
you get the point...

[alaukikyo]

Are you asking if it's moral or if it's ethical. They are different things.
they are quite similar


Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) that addresses questions about morality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality)

[handy]

Following through on the logic of the topic name of this thread:-

Spamming must be a moral & ethical practice as it is done to make money.

/thread

[Oxwivi]

A certain group is employing me to build a web crawler to crawl the web for phone numbers and emails. I already have one of these programs pre-written. I thought it would be fun and kind of weird. So I did it one day out of utter boredom. Now, I'm wondering if I should hand over the code or not. The average bid on the job was $40. I bid $10 b/c I already had it coded. It also includes keywords from the site where the contact info was harvested so the company can target the person's interests, and avoids professional organisations, by ignoring emails which have the same domain as the webpage the email was found on.

Is it ethical to hand this over to a company which will probably use it to just fill up our inboxs with more of the stuff we hate?

I'm using an extreme example. but is it ethical to kill if I'm paid? Or do some bad things if I'm paid?

[dh04000]

They offered you $10 for this program............. do you have no self worth?

Ask them for $10,000 at least!

EDIT: If they refuse to pay that amount, then threaten to give their contact info to the police. (morally wrong, but I'd do it.... spammers are bad people)

[conradin]

Hate spammers. Can;t you find another way to make $10? Maybe look to write code to destroy spammers ability to spam? I'd pay $20 to eliminate spammers.

I log abuse and push ISPs to shutdown malicious traffic. Just for the hell of it but I would take a 20$ bill.

you know, its possible to spam fax machines and printers? However, the USA judicial system had the fore sight ilegalize that, mainly because it incurs a direct cost to the user. If you want to stop spammers, you'll need the courts to be convinced that spam incurs a cost to the user.
I host my own mail server, and pay for Internet, so im in a position to complain. If you use hotmail, gmail, yahoo what eva, you're not incurring any direct cost, and are in no legal position to complain.

I have serveral techniques for hire, including a fake social network generator Im working on. Also a fake email server with known spammers as addressed targets. Maybe Ill work more on my ideas when the funding is right.

[lisati]

Also a fake email server with known spammers as addressed targets.

Something similar to a honeypot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeypot_%28computing%29#E-mail_trap)?

[Thewhistlingwind]

EDIT: If they refuse to pay that amount, then threaten to give their contact info to the police. (morally wrong, but I'd do it.... spammers are bad people)

So are blackmailers, and the latter usually get in more trouble.

[ki4jgt]

I log abuse and push ISPs to shutdown malicious traffic. Just for the hell of it but I would take a 20$ bill.

you know, its possible to spam fax machines and printers? However, the USA judicial system had the fore sight ilegalize that, mainly because it incurs a direct cost to the user. If you want to stop spammers, you'll need the courts to be convinced that spam incurs a cost to the user.
I host my own mail server, and pay for Internet, so im in a position to complain. If you use hotmail, gmail, yahoo what eva, you're not incurring any direct cost, and are in no legal position to complain.

I have serveral techniques for hire, including a fake social network generator Im working on. Also a fake email server with known spammers as addressed targets. Maybe Ill work more on my ideas when the funding is right.

What if we mixed my idea, with your fake email server and came up with a way to verify sender information (to make sure we were spamming the right person)?

EDIT: by using a predefined spammer's list of emails. Meaning the list would be floating around in the p2p network somewhere.

[prodigy_]

$10
Man, аre you for real? If so then you're either desperate or... I don't know. *scratches head*

We all sell our souls but rarely that cheap.

[ki4jgt]

Everyone says I need to go higher :-) The average bid was $40. The interviews are over, so IYO, what should I have bid? (considering the average bid was $40)

[del_diablo]

A certain group is employing me to build a web crawler to crawl the web for phone numbers and emails.

Report them to the police for attempting to mine data.
It is illegal in some countries.

[forrestcupp]

Are you sure those bids were even real? $40 seems pretty low for that kind of thing.

How many hours did it take you to come up with the code you already have?

[ki4jgt]

Are you sure those bids were even real? $40 seems pretty low for that kind of thing.

How many hours did it take you to come up with the code you already have?

The bids were verified by third party source, who I plan to use for all my programming interactions (http://www.odesk.com) They're pretty great about their policies and I don't think they'd fake anything (from what I've heard from others who have used them) They install software on the employee's computer that sends shots of the employee working (Webcam and Desktop) to the employer. If the employee is hired on an hourly basis, then as long as they're working (Doesn't depend on whether what they're doing meets the employer's quality or not) they will get paid. Since I already had the script written, I had to go with the up front option which was a straight price. (The benefit of proven work does not apply here and it's up to the employer whether you get paid or not) The average bid was $40. When I bid $10, the average went down to $37. So yeah :-) It took me 3 days to write (Which I only did b/c I was bored out of my mind)

[forrestcupp]

It took me 3 days to write (Which I only did b/c I was bored out of my mind)

You could mow a lawn in an hour and make a lot more than $10.

[juancarlospaco]

Let me suggest something for your IT life:

Work for Expensive Price, or Work for Free, but Never for Cheap

[lisati]

What if we mixed my idea, with your fake email server and came up with a way to verify sender information (to make sure we were spamming the right person)?

EDIT: by using a predefined spammer's list of emails. Meaning the list would be floating around in the p2p network somewhere.

The thing to be careful about, apart from possible backlash from the spammers and other issues, is that the "From", "Reply-to" and "Received" email headers are not a reliable guide to who really sent the email, because they can be faked or otherwise tampered with. If you run your own email server, the envelope sender is better, but still not a 100% infallible guide.

[ki4jgt]

You could mow a lawn in an hour and make a lot more than $10.

This I know :-) Mowed lawns with my lil bro in trailer park. I just did it to help em out. No money was taken. Plus having to dethissle 50 acres isn't fun at all, IDKW, I just like doing things for the fun of it, the price doesn't influence me much. The logging program I wrote for my site has a ton of features. I'm adding more soon. I just like doing things for the fun of it. I often tell people "Boredom is my best friend" Every time I get bored, I'm constantly trying new things.

[Khakilang]

It is wrong. You don't know what they do or steal no matter what they say to you.

[ki4jgt]

But how would we harness it?

[jhonan]

This I know :-) Mowed lawns with my lil bro in trailer park. I just did it to help em out. No money was taken. Plus having to dethissle 50 acres isn't fun at all, IDKW, I just like doing things for the fun of it, the price doesn't influence me much. The logging program I wrote for my site has a ton of features. I'm adding more soon. I just like doing things for the fun of it. I often tell people "Boredom is my best friend" Every time I get bored, I'm constantly trying new things.
People can afford to be philanthropists when they're either living at home, supported by their parents, or living in their own home supported by their shareholders.

[ki4jgt]

People can afford to be philanthropists when they're either living at home, supported by their parents, or living in their own home supported by their shareholders.

Maybe that's why they have shareholders. People trust them as a third party input because of all the things they've done. I read IQ is something you're born with (haven't read up on it in a while, so don't know if it's changed or not) but I used to contribute that to being the reason mine was so high. Doing good things for others allowed me to express myself. It literally helped me learn. I wasn't always worried about the deadline as much as about the quality of the finished product. In turn, people trusted me more, and somehow I managed to finish the product before the deadline. I remember coming into school several times after having been assigned a writing assignment (hadn't worked on it all weekend), because it was last minute, I started seeing inspiration for my writing everywhere. I know once of twice that my paper was chosen to be read in front of the entire class :-). Then, I sort of lost belief in myself, and have gone down hill from there, but that my friend, is another story. I'm wanting to return to that mindset though, to just be able to throw everything together and it all turn out fine. But I can't do it, when I'm focused so much on money and what I'm getting out of it. For some reason, I'm just not wired that way. I've seen what money can do to people and I don't want anything to do with it, other than it buying my meals (and some really cool toys) but I don't wan it to be the reason I'm working. I want to work, b/c I know I can, and b/c I know I can be proud of myself for doing so.

EDIT: I know I didn't do everything perfect, but it was dedicated.

[jhonan]

For some reason, I'm just not wired that way. I've seen what money can do to people and I don't want anything to do with it, other than it buying my meals (and some really cool toys) but I don't wan it to be the reason I'm working. I want to work, b/c I know I can, and b/c I know I can be proud of myself for doing so.

EDIT: I know I didn't do everything perfect, but it was dedicated.
Yeah, I started out like that too. But eventually I realised that something has to pay the rent and the 'really cool toys', and there's a direct correlation between the coolness of your toys and how much money you make.

[Paqman]

$10? Really? Why bother?

[ki4jgt]

Yeah, I started out like that too. But eventually I realised that something has to pay the rent and the 'really cool toys', and there's a direct correlation between the coolness of your toys and how much money you make.

I'm sorry. . . You just don't get it.


~ Your identity and your success go hand in hand. Many people sacrifice their identities by not doing what they really want to do. And that's why they're not successful. ~ Lila Swell

I had a hard life growing up. From alcohalic paranoid parents to bullies at school, but every day, I would get up and tell myself, that no matter what happened, I didn't have to sink to that level. I didn't have to be those people. I didn't think I was better than them, but I KNEW, I was better than what they were doing. While they were out partying, I was talking people through suicides and other crap. So, I secluded myself to a corner to avoid them. They all thought I was stuck up. But after getting cokes poured on you constantly, being harassed for thinking differently, having anything someone can pick up thrown at you (including but not limited to rocks and pencils) and not joining in their constant drug craze because you're the slightest bit religious, then of all things, having other religious people (and the people you talked to about their own problems only a year earlier) turn their backs on you, to go and join them (even in torturing you). It gets hectic. But, I never lost sight of who I was. I used all that to become the best that I could become. I helped people who couldn't get around their houses, do their chores. I talked to kids about their problems with bullies and other things. I was fully supporting myself while this was going on. Then one day (I was forced to see) a doctor told me, that I was lying to myself, and that I had never felt anything in my life. Because this was pretty much the story that everyone had told me, after a few weeks, I just suddenly snapped. HE WAS RIGHT!!! I had never felt anything!!!! All the hopes and dreams I had for my life, they WERE not real. All the helping I did for other people, it wasn't real. All the pride I got from knowing, that I did something good, It just wasn't real. I was living in a world where the only thing that mattered was the person with the most power, and I was giving all mine away! From that day, until now, I have been a bum. I have had less power, from that day, then all of those people who were mean to me put together. I started being mean, ruthless. I gave up on humanity, and I didn't take care of myself. Every time I would start to program, or play piano, or write poetry, I would instantly lose interest. I became very hostile, and the projects I had designed for myself to make money and to get me into college, all fell through (because I became pushy to the people behind those projects) I thought, that by being better, I was actually making myself better. If I was making myself better than them, then I must have been the worst person in the world, so I was punishing myself for everything they had said. Guess what? Yesterday, after all this time, I had a friend from highschool who I thought had turned his back on me, actually thank me, for getting him involved in computers. He thanked me for helping him get a scholarship. It was like hearing, thanks for keeping at it. You were an inspiration. This is who I want to be again. (I don't think I'll ever be the person I was, I can't even acurately describe him anymore) I want to be the person who cares, the person who uses their heart, the person who's challenged by the most simplest of things. after writing this though, I realise, I never lost it. I've been holding onto it all this time. That's why I can't sleep, can't eat, can't think about complex things (without getting a migraine) I'm holding onto who I am. If I let go, I WILL NOT be successful in life. I've already had one professional tell me it wasn't real. I know now not to listen to the next. It's who I am. Without it, I'm just another nerd sitting at a computer 24/7. So, to answer you, if I lose who I am, then no, I won't be able to support myself. I'll know something is wrong. Something won't feel right, and I'll lose hope, b/c I'll lose everything that makes me, me.

Sorry for all the text LOL

[ki4jgt]

$10? Really? Why bother?

I already had it written and $10 is $10

[3rdalbum]

I already had it written and $10 is $10

Okay, I see where you're coming from. You'd written it thinking that you'd get nothing from it, and then you saw the opportunity to get money from it.

But $10 is far too low - have you no pride? I used to work in a job that paid $15 per hour. The job was to sell furniture - big profit margins, I could sell one modestly-priced chest of drawers and the company would make back my wage for the day. I was a hardworking salesperson and tried to upsell to more expensive products when they were better for the customer too.

Only since moving on to my current job ($23 an hour, not even selling anything) and seeing a job advertisement for someone to help out at a freakin' costume hire shop for $19 an hour did I realise how much some people can be undervalued. The furniture business makes a lot more money than costume hire, but that little costume hire shop pays its employees more than the manager of the shop I was at.

Even putting aside the fact that your issue is with some ethically-questionable people, I think you're selling yourself too cheaply. Have some pride, price your services realistically, taking into account the fact that the spammers will make hundreds of thousands of dollars from your work and you will make $10.

If that isn't enough to convince you, remember that these ethically-and-legally-questionable people will probably demand you make changes to your script and add new features that were not in the original spec, and say "Well, since it took you three days to write that program that you sold us for $10, that means we can pay you $3.33 per day to program for us".

[jhonan]

I'm sorry. . . You just don't get it.

I had a hard life growing up.<snip>

Sorry for all the text LOL
Okay... step slowly away from the keyboard... :P

I was relating my experience. But then I'm an old school contract programmer with a good few years of cynicism under my belt.

If you're happy, then keep doing what you're doing.

[ki4jgt]

Okay, I see where you're coming from. You'd written it thinking that you'd get nothing from it, and then you saw the opportunity to get money from it.

But $10 is far too low - have you no pride? I used to work in a job that paid $15 per hour. The job was to sell furniture - big profit margins, I could sell one modestly-priced chest of drawers and the company would make back my wage for the day. I was a hardworking salesperson and tried to upsell to more expensive products when they were better for the customer too.

Only since moving on to my current job ($23 an hour, not even selling anything) and seeing a job advertisement for someone to help out at a freakin' costume hire shop for $19 an hour did I realise how much some people can be undervalued. The furniture business makes a lot more money than costume hire, but that little costume hire shop pays its employees more than the manager of the shop I was at.

Even putting aside the fact that your issue is with some ethically-questionable people, I think you're selling yourself too cheaply. Have some pride, price your services realistically, taking into account the fact that the spammers will make hundreds of thousands of dollars from your work and you will make $10.

If that isn't enough to convince you, remember that these ethically-and-legally-questionable people will probably demand you make changes to your script and add new features that were not in the original spec, and say "Well, since it took you three days to write that program that you sold us for $10, that means we can pay you $3.33 per day to program for us".

I get it, which is why I backed out. I know the script is worth more than that but, at the same time, I was done with it. I really didn't see any sense in charging an arm and a leg for something I did just as a hobby. It was more of a training excercise. I learned a lot about threading :-). I understand honest work, for honest pay, but I also don't like to put money on something I enjoyed doing, b/c then to me, it feels like I'm just saying, this is worth, of who I am, and what I did. When I'm not doing it for fun, I would enjoy being paid. But I just don't want to forget to have fun in the process.

[ki4jgt]

Okay... step slowly away from the keyboard... :P

I was relating my experience. But then I'm an old school contract programmer with a good few years of cynicism under my belt.

If you're happy, then keep doing what you're doing.

Sorry LOL, it's just, I have two different modes. Creative and creative experienced. When I build something purely creative, I don't like to put a price tag on it. It makes me feel like a shrink. You can come tell me your problems, but you have to pay me $100 dollars for me to be a decent human being and listen to them. In my mind (I'll pour my heart into this, with all my creativeness, but EVERY time I do, you have to pay me $100 dollars.) I understand that the light bill MUST be paid, but I don't want to put a price tag on being creative all the time. This is where creative expirience comes into play. Once I've had my fun, then there's work to be done. It's like, I know I gotta get the dough, but I don't want that to be all that I am. I don't want to lose my creative side by putting a price tag on it, I just want to do the job, get paid, and if I see something I missed, I'll put in a few minutes fixing it (depending on how fun I can make it) again, sorry for all the mess of words <snip> LOL :-) I'm slowly regaining my composure.

EDIT: and there's nothing wrong with being an old programmer. Wisdom comes with age. Who know's I may need your advice in the future. but all I was saying is, right now, I'm trying to hold on to the idea of my self worth, and my self worth, is that somethings don't have a price tag. Like things I did for fun. So, I sell them for cheaps, so I can say, I helped someone else out, even though I knew it was worth more, I did them a favor.

[whiskeylover]

Glad you turned it down. But, as you yourself mentioned earlier, they would find someone else to do it.

So, if you have had helped them out, you'd have been $10 richer, and the other programmer would have been $40 poorer, while everything else would have been the same.

Thats another way to look at it.

[forrestcupp]

I'm sorry. . . You just don't get it.



I had a hard life growing up.I'm sorry about the rough life you've had. But if you keep going from one extreme to the other, it will be like a pendulum and you'll never be happy. You have to find balance. One thing I've learned through a lot of experience is that if you are benevolent to the extreme, people start expecting it, they get a welfare mentality, and they're worse off than they were to begin with. You have to use wisdom with your benevolence.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a good heart and a positive attitude while your are taking care of your own responsibilities. I would rather pay a friendly, good-hearted, hard working server a huge tip than to be served by a jerk for free.


I understand honest work, for honest pay, but I also don't like to put money on something I enjoyed doing, b/c then to me, it feels like I'm just saying, this is worth, of who I am, and what I did.I think you're getting it wrong. It's a very small percentage of the population that actually has a career that they enjoy. There's nothing wrong with enjoying what you do for a living. That's a blessing to be able to do that. If you put a low price tag on what you do, then everyone else thinks that that's what you think you're worth. After what you've come through, I think you can learn to think more highly of yourself. You can think highly of yourself without thinking lowly of others.

[aeronutt]

A certain group is employing me to build a web crawler to crawl the web for phone numbers and emails. I already have one of these programs pre-written. I thought it would be fun and kind of weird. So I did it one day out of utter boredom. Now, I'm wondering if I should hand over the code or not. The average bid on the job was $40. I bid $10 b/c I already had it coded. It also includes keywords from the site where the contact info was harvested so the company can target the person's interests, and avoids professional organisations, by ignoring emails which have the same domain as the webpage the email was found on.

Is it ethical to hand this over to a company which will probably use it to just fill up our inboxs with more of the stuff we hate?

You have to define 'spammer' before this can be answered. eg, spamming advertising and spamming phishing attacks have different answers.

[Paqman]

I already had it written and $10 is $10

Yeah, but if you've got reservations it hardly makes it a difficult offer to turn down. It's not like you'd miss the money.

[Ghost|BTFH]

The bids were verified by third party source, who I plan to use for all my programming interactions (http://www.odesk.com) They're pretty great about their policies and I don't think they'd fake anything (from what I've heard from others who have used them)

As someone who's worked for oDesk (not a bad service at all) I have to say that what the other poster was asking about is something I've seen and experienced first hand:

Someone posts a job. They then have 2-3 people (friends, relatives, even employees) post bids that are low, but still a little higher than what they want to pay. You then come by and see the bids and figure "Well, I need to undercut these guys if I want the job..." and a low bid comes in from an outside source they can use.

I know this because I saw a job that was perfect for me, but they were getting $40-50 bids for a job I knew would take me a lot of time and effort and would be worth ten times what they were asking. So I applied and instead of putting $40/job on the application, I put $40/hr.

They asked if it was a typo and I said it wasn't. They said they preferred to work on a flat fee and I didn't hesitate to say "$500 for this job or any work similar" and the price was agreed after they saw a sample of my work.

It is definitely something to watch out for - NEVER sell yourself short. There are many people in 3rd world countries that work on oDesk. Most companies don't want workers who can barely speak English or have difficulty with (Major country goes here) ideals. You are who you are. If they want you for that, you have a great job ahead and a fantastic working relationship in the future.

They may not hire you for the minor crap, but let's be honest, you don't want to be inundated with that - leave that to the poor and desperate. If you have skills, utilize them for the right price and don't settle for less.

Cheers,
Ghost|BTFH

[Ghost|BTFH]

Sorry LOL, it's just, I have two different modes. Creative and creative experienced. When I build something purely creative, I don't like to put a price tag on it. It makes me feel like a shrink. You can come tell me your problems, but you have to pay me $100 dollars for me to be a decent human being and listen to them.

Here's the key to balancing those issues (ones I've faced myself time and again):

1) People need your help no matter what you do. If you're a janitor, people need your help cleaning up. If you're a doctor, people need your help to get better. Either way, people need your help.

2) There are those who can pay for your skills, knowledge and services (like those who go to a shrink) and those are people who are willing to part with money to have solutions. There's nothing wrong with that, in a tribal setting, they'd be doing nothing more than helping you build your home, bringing you food, or getting you tools, etc. That's what money does for you, it's simply a representation of someone's goods or services which in turn can purchase more of the same.

3) There are those who cannot pay for your skills, knowledge and services. These people may not be able or willing to pay, depending on their situation/mindset/etc. It is up to you to decide whom you help out of these people - but help them you can and will if you so desire.

Just like a plastic surgeon who gets $10k for a tummy tuck so he can afford to do free work to fix a burn victim so they don't have horrible scarring, you can and should charge a reasonable market rate for your skills and give your service away to those organizations or individuals you deem worthy of such generosity.

Be your own person, love others, but love yourself first.

Cheers,
Ghost|BTFH

[forrestcupp]

@Ghost|BTFH

Those were two excellent and informative posts.

[ki4jgt]

Here's the key to balancing those issues (ones I've faced myself time and again):

1) People need your help no matter what you do. If you're a janitor, people need your help cleaning up. If you're a doctor, people need your help to get better. Either way, people need your help.

2) There are those who can pay for your skills, knowledge and services (like those who go to a shrink) and those are people who are willing to part with money to have solutions. There's nothing wrong with that, in a tribal setting, they'd be doing nothing more than helping you build your home, bringing you food, or getting you tools, etc. That's what money does for you, it's simply a representation of someone's goods or services which in turn can purchase more of the same.

3) There are those who cannot pay for your skills, knowledge and services. These people may not be able or willing to pay, depending on their situation/mindset/etc. It is up to you to decide whom you help out of these people - but help them you can and will if you so desire.

Just like a plastic surgeon who gets $10k for a tummy tuck so he can afford to do free work to fix a burn victim so they don't have horrible scarring, you can and should charge a reasonable market rate for your skills and give your service away to those organizations or individuals you deem worthy of such generosity.

Be your own person, love others, but love yourself first.

Cheers,
Ghost|BTFH

Thanks :-)
Been doing some thinking and, I agree. Anyway, on to odesk, thanks for the explain. Even though I'm Agnostic (right now) I do believe in the law of Karma. When they jip me, that's something they'll have to pay for. That's loss to their own human character. It's a flaw that they'll have to live with for the rest of their lives. The fact that they outed someone else. From what you're talking, they don't sound like very nice people anyway and they'll have to deal with their own personality complex. One that will keep them from enjoying life (a little or a lot, depending on how far it goes) I consider them to be in the same boat as the ones without any money, only less of a human being, b/c they have money and are just too cheap to spend it. So, who am I to judge the situation? I just set the price. Thankfully, I pulled out. I realised that those people weren't the type I wanted to be associated with (with a little help from you guys) and pulled out of the situation. But I totally know where you're coming from. It takes money to start a business, it takes money to keep said business going, I however don't want to be the judge of whether or not someone can afford using my services, b/c I know there are stipulations to every situation.

[jhonan]

I however don't want to be the judge of whether or not someone can afford using my services, b/c I know there are stipulations to every situation.
But that's what it's all about, isn't it? - This is the one piece you have to judge; Whether to charge someone, and how much to charge them.

1) A multinational making $20bn a year comes to you and likes the look of some code you've written - They think you've done a fantastic job, and promise to attribute you as the author on all derivatives, as well as allowing you to use them as a reference on your CV. All you need to do is sign over the rights. For free. Good deal?

2) An old lady at the end of your street is snowed into her house. She's offering you $200 to clear the snow for her. Do you accept?

3) A web development company has a vacancy for a <insert your favorite programming language> programmer. You'll get loads of respect, and be doing something you enjoy doing. However, they're a start-up and although they're on target to turnover $50m/year by year 2 they don't have much cash right now. They're offering you $10/hour

I could go on for pages, but this is already a tl;dr - The point I'm trying to make is that everything you do either in your personal life or your career is based on judgements you make. And learning to weigh up judgements in business and make sound decisions is absolutely essential if you don't want to spend your life getting ripped off.

That's the reality of it. It only takes one unscrupulous businessman to see through you, and he'll rip you off to high heaven.

[Ghost|BTFH]

1) A multinational making $20bn a year comes to you and likes the look of some code you've written - They think you've done a fantastic job, and promise to attribute you as the author on all derivatives, as well as allowing you to use them as a reference on your CV. All you need to do is sign over the rights. For free. Good deal?

2) An old lady at the end of your street is snowed into her house. She's offering you $200 to clear the snow for her. Do you accept?

3) A web development company has a vacancy for a <insert your favorite programming language> programmer. You'll get loads of respect, and be doing something you enjoy doing. However, they're a start-up and although they're on target to turnover $50m/year by year 2 they don't have much cash right now. They're offering you $10/hour

Sorry, the devil made me answer this one instead of the OP:

1) No.
2) Yes.
3) Hell yes.

[athenroy]

Personally, if your program works, I wouldn't let it go for $10 and not at all to known spammers. As to the last post about the 3 questions. 1. No, because, strange how soon companies forget who you are. 2. You shovel her driveway for free, because it is the moral thing to do, regardless. 3. In this economy, if I were looking for a job with potential, I'd take a chance with a new company as long as I knew they were on the right track.

[BrokenKingpin]

Even if you are somewhat not sure... it probably isn't worth the 10 bucks. If it was $5000 then you would have a tougher choice.

[timZZ]

I thought it would be fun and kind of weird.

Sounds like you where looking to be a spammer.

[ronaldmduff]

for me i spammers are really annoying.. but if they pay me to help them with the right price then why not.. right?