What has happened to Ubuntu Forums

[zealibib slaughter]

I have noticed here recently that the trend at solving problems isn't actually solving anything but telling the OP to reinstall, install 10.10, or even install windows and forget about 11.04 entirely. In the past people was trying to help you fix whatever was wrong but now they just say to dump your install. Has anyone else noticed this and if you have why do you think that is?

[kerry_s]

I think it depends on how new they are. rather than waste hours/days/weeks trying to fix, just do a 30min install & there back up with in the hour. most don' t even know how to provide enough info to really help us help them.
also the forum has driven off most old timers, so you'll see a lot of new trying to help new & they just don't know.

so yes, I understand it's somtimes easier to move on rather than fighting with a problem.

[jerenept]

I have noticed here recently that the trend at solving problems isn't actually solving anything but telling the OP to reinstall, install 10.10, or even install windows and forget about 11.04 entirely. In the past people was trying to help you fix whatever was wrong but now they just say to dump your install. Has anyone else noticed this and if you have why do you think that is?

Because a lot of people here on the forums hate unity?

[zealibib slaughter]

I think it depends on how new they are. rather than waste hours/days/weeks trying to fix, just do a 30min install & there back up with in the hour. most don' t even know how to provide enough info to really help us help them.
also the forum has driven off most old timers, so you'll see a lot of new trying to help new & they just don't know.

so yes, I understand it's somtimes easier to move on rather than fighting with a problem.


Yes it is fustrating to try and get information from new users so I can see that point. Also with the new people trying to help causes chaos sometimes.

[Thewhistlingwind]

Also with the new people trying to help causes chaos sometimes.

"The elitism that's killing LINUX!!!":lolflag:

No, the problem isn't new users. (Look at join date.) The problem is people who don't understand that reinstall should be a last resort, and that if you don't know what to do, let someone else assist.

[nmccrina]

I've never personally told someone to reinstall to fix a problem. But, having installed several different distros many times each (in other words, it's no big deal anymore), for me that is actually the easiest way to correct whatever "d'oh!" thing I've managed to do. So I can see how that would be something people would suggest. Especially since maybe a fix would only correct the symptom, and the actual problem might resurface again at some point. A reinstall gives a clean slate. Of course, someone who really knows what they're doing would presumably be able to fix the underlying problem so that reasoning is perhaps flawed.

[cariboo]

There have always been people recommending a re-install to solve problems, this is pretty normal. I've seen several threads where someone just keeps re-installing until their problem is solved.

Personally, If I don't know the answer to a question, I just move on to the next thread.

I think I've recommended that the op do a re-install once or twice when they've run:


chmod -R 777 *

as it's much quicker to re-install than it is to spend days trying to restore proper permissions, to all the files and directories.

[katykat]

As Linux is reaching out these days to the unwashed masses, it should always use caution when recommending updates to new releases, which are expected to run on machines that may not be able to handle ever increasing resources, especially for those in countries where the average person simply cannot go out and buy a new computer for very new OS release.

New releases are often buggy, and I normally avoid them.
I only went to alpha Meerkat when I got fed up with the buggy Jaunty after having to reinstall a couple of times due to dependency hell.

For me Meerkat is a stable OS, and I have been unable to break it, so there is no way I am going to 'upgrade' when I've already installed over a half million files that may, or may not like a new OS.

Sometimes going back to the earlier install is the ONLY real option, especially as there can be hardware specific bugs that nobody is interested in fixing.

And with a new OS, there is simply not the time or experience for the veteran troubleshooters to be able to deal with bugs that may not even be repeatable on their systems.

What I would recommend doing for those who would like to upgrade is this:
1. Keep your original installation on its original disk.
2. Get another hard drive, and have it dual boot. Something like Meerkat, and Natty each on their own drives.
3. Give it a month or two, and see which one you like to boot to the best, and which is giving the least problems, the winner stays, the loser gets formatted on the next upgrade cycle and the process repeats.

The folks at Ubuntu should also consider at least 5 years for their LTS releases. For those of us with online businesses the current cycle is too short for a real production environment, and I most small businesses are simply not going to retrain every two years or so. Small businesses are conservative software wise, and if it works are loath to change. Some are still running Win98.

[irv]

I personally have never told anyone to just re-install, but there were times I maybe should have.

When 11.04 first came out, I installed it and tried Unity. I did not like it so I installed Gnome 3 and did a lot of changing of things to the point that Unity and Gnome 3 would not work right. I know I broke some packages and got to such a state that I couldn't even ask for help because I didn't even know where to start. I just did a re-install and started over. Within the last 30 days, I have gone from Ubuntu 11.04 64bit, to the 32bit, back to 10.10 32 and 64bit, not to mention Xubuntu 64bit, I have tried just about every DE you can think of. And this is not to mention Suse and a couple of other Distros.

Right now I am settling in on Xubuntu 11.04 with Xfce and I think I will be staying with this until the next release. I bounce between three Hard Drive so it is not as bad as it seems. And I also have Ubuntu 10.10 64 bit on my main Hard Drive to always fall back on Just in case I really hose this one up.

Yes, I am one of those guys that break things just so I can fix them. This is the best way to learn things in my book.

[Laforge129]

I have got to put in my 2 pennies on this matter.

First when it comes to re-installing that isn't the problem. The problem is that most of the ABSOLUTE Beginners are those who are do not know how to do the command line with Linux and if I tell them to do something, they will most likely make it harder on me. I don't recommend re-installing until I know if the problem is going to drive the new user away and if that is the case finding another distro is far quicker and easier to keep that user from abandoning Linux all together.

There is my two pennies. Enjoy!

[snowpine]

Unity is new and unfamiliar to all of us. Suddenly the old-time Gnome experts are in the same boat as the newcomers and simply don't know the answer to every question. "Do a fresh install of 10.10" is a cop-out answer, I agree. But if my experience on these forums has taught me anything, in 6 months, people will be saying "11.10 is terrible, I recommend a fresh install of 11.04." :)

[|{urse]

I've totally noticed this too.

I find whether you're going to be told to reinstall or not depends a lot on how accurate and complete the details of the op's issue are.

That said, seems like a lot of the absolute beginners aren't able to explain their problems very well and sometimes due to communication breakdowns are finally suggested to reinstall.

This may be indicative of a large new group of users hitting the forums. Used to be that linux was a smaller yet more savvy group of people who could easily communicate even via text with nerd-telepathy and generally sorted their problems very quickly. What we may be seeing here is the first wave of truly mainstream users who aren't already windows or mac proficient (no nerd-telepathy).

Just a postulation.

[coffee412]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have new users supply some basic info about their system in their requests for help. Things like the log file (/var/log/messages) and probably lspci and lsusb outputs.

It sure would make it easier if they just included this along with their posts as attachments.

Perhaps a good post sticky (or update if it exists) of a easy to read "How to post your problem"

](*,)
coffee

[Laforge129]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have new users supply some basic info about their system in their requests for help. Things like the log file (/var/log/messages) and probably lspci and lsusb outputs.

It sure would make it easier if they just included this along with their posts as attachments.

Perhaps a good post sticky (or update if it exists) of a easy to read "How to post your problem"

](*,)
coffee

Great Suggestion there Coffee. Maybe they should start doing that, at least then we have some place to start off and not be scratching our heads as to what the problem is in the first place.

[coffee412]

Great Suggestion there Coffee. Maybe they should start doing that, at least then we have some place to start off and not be scratching our heads as to what the problem is in the first place.

Sure would save alot of time posting questions. Oh, Lets not forget post titles like " I need help" or "Please help me".

The first reply should always ask for the logs if they are not supplied.

You know, While we are at it - GOOGLE IT. :roll:

coffee

[Bandit]

I have noticed here recently that the trend at solving problems isn't actually solving anything but telling the OP to reinstall, install 10.10, or even install windows and forget about 11.04 entirely. In the past people was trying to help you fix whatever was wrong but now they just say to dump your install. Has anyone else noticed this and if you have why do you think that is?

Two things I think are amiss here.

1) Being ubuntu has a plethera of new linux users still learning (not a bad thing, everyone starts somewhere) and re-install is what is normally done with windows and currently all they really know to do when they mess something up.

2) Like previously stated. Most everyone here hates Unity. But as frustrated as everyone is, most are still sticking with Ubuntu. Pretty much like hanging on to the titanic after the stern has sunk half way to the oceans floor.

[u.rusty]

As a new Ubuntu user, I can attest that much of what is being said here about new users is true.

I installed Ubuntu on my notebook computer, dual boot with WinXP, and when it didn't work right at first, I reinstalled Ubuntu. That did fix the problem, and old habits die hard.

When I decided to run the notebook computer with Ubuntu exclusively, I installed 10.10 and loved it. Then, when 11.04 came out I upgraded it, but didn't like Unity, so I reinstalled 10.10. Of course, after I reinstalled 10.10 I read that all you have to do is log into 11.04 with the Classic interface and no more Unity. So, yes you guessed it, I reinstalled 11.04 and logged in using the classic interface.

I'm clearly still learning, but I did discover that having the /home directory on it's own partition make multiple re-installations simpler because many of your settings are saved there.

I have to say, I'm extremely impressed with Ubuntu! I've dual booted my desktop and run Ubuntu most of the time. Windows has become my gaming OS.

[irv]

u.rusty are an average user, and I do not say this in a bad way. In fact I fit right in with you except I have been doing this since 2005.

One thing I find on this forum is I will be trying to help someone with a problem and after 8 or 10 posts I find they have a completely different set up then what I thought. It make a big difference if they installed on it own partition or a Wubi install, or even a Virtualbox install. This is also just some basic information.

Let me give you another example: Wifi cards! I have a Broadcom 4311 card that works with Ubuntu but to get it to work the fix was different in 11.04 compared to 10.04 and 10.10. The additional driver supplied by Ubuntu in 10.x worked find but did not in 11.04. In fact you needed to un-install the driver and do a apt-get install for the right one. Plus you needed to reboot. But that was only half the problem because others who had a Broadcom 4312,4313, etc had to do things differently. This just added to the confusion. This was not a case of re-installing, but many got so frustrated that they when back to 10.x. At first I was ready to do the same thing.

Just for the record this was a 11.04 thing not Unity because Xubuntu 11.04 acted the same way.
EDIT: If you want to read through all the confusion check out this thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1604868&page=32 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1604868&page=32)

[towheedm]

I think it depends on how new they are. rather than waste hours/days/weeks trying to fix, just do a 30min install & there back up with in the hour. most don' t even know how to provide enough info to really help us help them.
also the forum has driven off most old timers, so you'll see a lot of new trying to help new & they just don't know.

so yes, I understand it's somtimes easier to move on rather than fighting with a problem.

And why do you think the forum has driven off most old timers? Probaly the council should take a note.

[krapp]

My theory is that Arch Linux popularity shot up, and now it's suggested as the solution to an incredibly broad range of problems.

[el_koraco]

My theory is that Arch Linux popularity shot up, and now it's suggested as the solution to an incredibly broad range of problems.

KISS it baby!

[Laforge129]

My theory is that Arch Linux popularity shot up, and now it's suggested as the solution to an incredibly broad range of problems.

It is all About flavors and what people like. Yes we do have more broad problems that is what I like about Linux, I can customize my desktop the way I want without crapware being there!!

[krapp]

It is all About flavors and what people like. Yes we do have more broad problems that is what I like about Linux, I can customize my desktop the way I want without crapware being there!!

Apparently Arch is for people who wish they were running Unix/BSD, not GNU.

[irv]

Apparently Arch is for people who wish they were running Unix/BSD, not GNU.

There are Nerds and there are Nerds that rule the Nerds!!

[krapp]

Which ones like GNU? And which ones are self-hating GNU/Linux users?

[spynappels]

Just FYI, not all experienced Ubuntu users hate Unity!

At first I did, but I figured I'd give it a fair chance, and now that I've been using it for a month, I actually like it. Sure, it took me a while to find all I was looking for and to get used to doing things differently, but overall, it was not so bad.

And I manage all my servers through CLI exclusively, I just use what works best for me, and the beauty of Linux (not just Ubuntu) is that you can do exactly what you want to! Use Unity, Gnome 2, Gnome 3, KDE, whatever you like.

Long live Linux!

Oh, and I never suggest a re-install unless everything else has been tried first, but I will suggest using a LTS server release to someone struggling with a 11.04 server install, for long term stability sake once they do get the issues sorted.

[mikewhatever]

I don't think anything has happened. A new release is out, and as always, it's touted 'the worst ever' by a bunch of well meaning trolls, but nevertheless, people rush to upgrade. Reinstalling has always been a viable solution, especially if an older release worked well. Reinstalling Ubuntu is easy and fast, and if it solves a few problems along the way, I don't see why not.

PS: All the Unity hate is beginning to sound like a suck record. Get over it.

[RiceMonster]

Apparently Arch is for people who wish they were running Unix/BSD, not GNU.


Which ones like GNU? And which ones are self-hating GNU/Linux users?

What are you talking about?

[krapp]

What are you talking about?

Care to enumerate your objections?

[RiceMonster]

Care to enumerate your objections?

Care to explain what you're talking about? I have no idea where you're getting this stuff from.

[irv]

What are you talking about?

Krapp wanted to know who were the nerds and who ruled the nerds. I just didn't answer him, because we were off topic and I didn't want to get to far off base. Which I am doing right now.
The End.

[krapp]

Care to explain what you're talking about? I have no idea where you're getting this stuff from.

From the household truths promoted by Arch users on their forum and elsewhere. I know you post on Linsux, so you might as well admit that you too are a self-hating GNU/Linux user before trying to defend that angle.

[RiceMonster]

From the household truths promoted by Arch users on their forum and elsewhere. I know you post on Linsux, so you might as well admit that you too are a self-hating GNU/Linux user before trying to defend that angle.

Still no idea where this came from. All of a sudden you're talking about "self hating GNU/Linux users" out of nowhere. Nobody brought anything like that up or anything. Maybe you just feel the need to complain?

Whatever, have fun. I was just trying to figure this out, is all.

[krapp]

Still no idea where this came from. All of a sudden you're talking about "self hating GNU/Linux users" out of nowhere. Nobody brought anything like that up or anything. Maybe you just feel the need to complain?

Whatever, have fun. I was just trying to figure this out, is all.

Uh try reading all the waaaay back to page 2 where I suggest that Arch users are what happened to UF.org.

Edit: I thought the logic was clear enough but here it is written out: Arch users don't like GNU/Linux > their way of sabotaging GNU/Linux is to get unsuspecting Ubuntu users trying to troubleshoot to re-install GNU/Linux > GNU/Linux stays buggy.

[snowpine]

Uh try reading all the waaaay back to page 2 where I suggest that Arch users are what happened to UF.org.

I'd have to STRONGLY disagree with this. Other OS users (Arch, Debian, Fedora, etc.) have been valuable and helpful members of UbuntuForums since I joined over 3 years ago. So long as everyone used the same Gnome environment, expertise was easily transferable across distros.

But now that Ubuntu has gone to a unique desktop environment, lots of the non-Unity-users are leaving the forums. Until the rest of the Linux world catches up, Unity users are in the lonely position of being pioneers.

Unity is not hard, it's just that it's so new there aren't as many help/support resources available yet. Give it some time. :)

[Thewhistlingwind]

But now that Ubuntu has gone to a unique desktop environment, lots of the non-Unity-users are leaving the forums. Until the rest of the Linux world catches up, Unity users are in the lonely position of being pioneers.


No offense, but it's unity that needs to catch up. They've shipped a 1.0 release versus the gnome-shell and KDE.

It's making ubuntu look bad, and if you really think it's going to become the standard on all distros, your dreaming.........

[snowpine]

No offense, but it's unity that needs to catch up. They've shipped a 1.0 release versus the gnome-shell and KDE.

It's making ubuntu look bad, and if you really think it's going to become the standard on all distros, your dreaming.........

Unity is the new standard DE for Ubuntu, I think it is very nice and we should all rally around and support it by recommending it to new users and supporting them when they have questions! "Unity stinks, don't use it" is not a warm welcome to new users, I think. If Unity becomes as influential as I think it will, then it won't be long before it's ported to the other distros.

But if you don't personally like Unity, I respect that... and remind you that Classic Gnome, KDE, Xfce, LXDE, etc. are still 100% supported by Ubuntu/Canonical. :)

[cespinal]

I have noticed here recently that the trend at solving problems isn't actually solving anything but telling the OP to reinstall, install 10.10, or even install windows and forget about 11.04 entirely. In the past people was trying to help you fix whatever was wrong but now they just say to dump your install. Has anyone else noticed this and if you have why do you think that is?

Worse than that:

OP: GOOD GOD PLEASE HELP!!! mi wifi is not working!, the HD is not being detected and the screen resolution sucks!! I HATE LINUX

Posters: dude what are you talking about? my systems is just going on rails... no problems here!

[irv]

Unity is not hard, it's just that it's so new there aren't as many help/support resources available yet. Give it some time.
Yes, it is new and different. But as I see it, what is happening is that because Ubuntu released 11.04 with this new Unity DE that wasn't really ready yet as the default it cause some to revert back to 10.x and Gnome 2.32 or just switch the the classic view which is Gnome 2.32. So what this means is that the Unity base users will be small compared to Gnome 2.32.

To add to this we have Gnome 3 that is out and some have installed it, so now we have 3 camps with different DE's. And one more problem I see that will develop over time is that Gnome 2.32 will be going away because of Gnome 3 coming out. Because of this I switched to Xubuntu 11.04 with Xfce. It is the closest think to Gnome 2.32 that will be around for awhile.

This is just my take on some problem that I see.

[sffvba[e0rt]

Worst than giving the advice to re-install is what has happened in this thread... the whole issue gets derailed and half the posts are off-topic (yes, even threads in the Community Cafe actually have a specific topic ;)



404

[Laforge129]

Are we just ranting and hating Linux or is there an actual point to this thread??

:lolflag:

[hhh]

Perhaps a good post sticky (or update if it exists) of a easy to read "How to post your problem"
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1422475


You know, While we are at it - GOOGLE IT. :roll:Just be polite if you suggest Google. All caps and an eye roll warrants an infraction (Section II - 16)...
http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy


Worst than giving the advice to re-install is what has happened in this thread... the whole issue gets derailed and half the posts are off-topic (yes, even threads in the Community Cafe actually have a specific topic ;)Ding ding ding! Well said.

My 2 cents... the forums' structure is a mess, does one even know how to find the Code of Conduct? And it was well over 6 months before I even noticed Absolute Beginners Talk.

There are a lot of young users here, all of whom have different motivations for being here, draw your own conclusions.

There are a lot of users here who are antagonistic, period. krapp in this thread is a good example. krapp... is that referring to the play, the chamber opera, the herb or the human waste product?

Just do your best to provide good support, be pleasant whenever possible and ignore most of the rest. Use the Report button when necessary.