Making Ubuntu relevant again

[jago25_98]

A bit of reterospection first,

when I started using Ubuntu maybe 8 or 10 years ago things were very different to how they are now.

We were still reeling from Win98, that was a big drive that people remember to this day. We also had a general sense of computers being a blackbox, hard to control.

Previous distributions like Mandrake and Gentoo started changing that. People started learning. Ubuntu become popular after these and did lots to help the situation. The 2 big things that set Ubuntu apart from other distro that allowed Ubuntu to really take off was great leadership and that regular release cycle.

Since then many things have changed. There's always the threat that everything will go to the cloud. Is Ubuntu scaling down ambitions in readiness for this by becoming like ChromeOS?
It would be easy to think of a bleak future but hang on! How many people have rooted phones these days compared to when Ubuntu first started? ALL of those people are potential users because they understand the essence of self determination, actually having the power and understanding to work your own gear. That's a massive potential for open source. These people are prepared to get thier hands dirty. They don't need Ubuntu Unity. More and more people are clued up, that's the vector for new users. These people are looking for help with the nuts and bolts of Ubuntu. That help is needs to be improved in Ubuntu itself. In the man pages, commenting in /etc... but more importantly, geek innovation on how to show what is going on in the background in a live setting - bringing explaination closer than the forum and magazine.

Since I've been using Ubuntu I've noticed a pattern. A pattern that wasn't happening with Gentoo. With Gentoo it was pretty obvious it needs work. With that work you learn what's going on. But it's accessible and you get on with it. It's a bit of a bummer in that it's effort and you have people saying `Linux is not ready for the desktop yet` but everybody knows where they stand.
The pattern I'm seeing is going after that goal of ease of use, not for intermediate users but for new users. This is a good goal to have. But the thing is it's a hard goal to have and massively different to what's been happening in the past. You don't want hundereds of male engineers, you want people research.

So to this end we've seen things lean towards glossing over. Nothing wrong with this per-sec, startup messages hidden not to scare anyone, no refresh button on NetworkManager and the much talked about Unity of course. These decisions might be a good idea if you've got a strategy of bundling Ubuntu onto new Netbooks aimed at new linux users. But the thing is that it's trying to please so many people in one go. Should the fork for this be more defined? Otherwise these changes aren't going to be great for people who have a slight clue at linux. Which I think is the great many current users. Play to ones strengths.

I'm actually considering for alternative distros as an interim but keeping Ubuntu as my shell server. I think I might be better off with Gentoo or Slack again but that would be admitting to losing what Ubuntu was. I think I'm not alone in this.

I think if Ubuntu can complete it's ambitious goal of easy to use on Netbooks that will be good but would it come at a cost of what it was a few years ago.

Should Ubuntu be trying to emulate some of ChromeOS/Android's successes? Should there be more developer ease of use in the way things are arranged: annotated man pages, verbose bubble popups that don't change focus, more emphasis on usability research ideas - things that are hidden in Android could be brought to the surface.

I think there needs to be a reenvisioning (or clearer vision?) of what Ubuntu should be. And that if this has happened it should be clear to everyone. If it means that experienced users can't be catered for that should be clear up front. If it means that a new direction is being taken for the moment and there will be some neglect of the current userbase that should be said.

Could we bring the community more into each others machines somehow? We have vnc, screencasting and pastebin, but most of this is orientated around forums. What if the structure of a virtualmachine install was shared over Facebook? What if every aspect of a problem was documented socially? Playing to the unique strengths of open source again.

Regards Canocial too: I'm a user and I've been using Ubuntu for maybe 10 years. Sometimes I get a problem and I'm prepared to pay for it. That's where Canocial should be able to step in but that's not what's happening. I'm not being sold to, that's mostly a good thing, but I'd love it if it was as accessible as a premium rate phone line or prepay per minute.

Here's an idea - get the server version of Ubuntu tight first. Focus on this for a while. There's a lot of visual centric thought right now but it's the stuff behind the scenes that matters.

Also, have a look at Mark Shuttleworths blog from time to time. It helps with clarity on many things. It can also help to meet Ubuntu people in person at various events like LUGRadio. This is the kind of thing that helps things on. In fact, it's usually the social things that have exponential changes. It would be good to have a mix up of various projects at smaller events from time to time in addition to the bigger ones, meeting in person.

Can anyone chip in with some ideas here for me to solidify what Ubuntu could be, maintaining it's uniqueness, and thus relevance as the world changes around it.

Thoughts?

[aaaantoine]

when I started using Ubuntu maybe 8 or 10 years ago...

I assume you mean Linux here, given the further context.


These people are prepared to get thier hands dirty. They don't need Ubuntu Unity.

I'm tempted to stop reading from this point forward, but I'll continue.

[rg4w]

Most of your post focuses on abstract references to the GUI, but then you keep coming back to the server, which of course has no GUI. I'm confused by this.

What specific issues are you having with the server edition?

[Smilax]

again??

[Docaltmed]

I don't think anyone's trying to take away your command line, bucko. :)

It honestly reads like you're complaining because Ubuntu has gotten too easy to use and too bug-free to really get your geek on.

I dunno, you might want to check in with a few 11.04 upgraders before running for second base with that argument.

I really don't mind using a system that doesn't require me to fire up some bare-bones text editor so that I can put obscure commands in a hard-to-find .conf file every other Thursday. Really. I'm quite pleased to turn the damned thing on and have it work.

That way I have the *option* of climbing under the hood if I want to, rather than having to get my hands dirty because the brakes gave out on me half-way down the mountain.

[nothingspecial]

Are you trying to say that it should be easier for anyone to improve Ubuntu?

[forrestcupp]

I assume you mean Linux here, given the further context.
Right, since Ubuntu has only been around for 6 1/2 years. ;)

I think the OP may either not have a good memory or he may be confusing Ubuntu with the overall history of Linux. The thing that made Ubuntu catch on and become popular was that it was easy to use from the very moment it was released. Sure, it has come a long way in ease of use since then. But even in the beginning, one of the main goals was to make it easy to use.

Now if you're talking about the history of Linux and not just Ubuntu, that's a different story.

[grahammechanical]

Again? What do you mean, Again? Here is the relevance of Ubuntu?


The pattern I'm seeing is going after that goal of ease of use, not for intermediate users but for new users.What else would Ubuntu for Humans mean? The goal is not yet achieved. It is still being developed. It is why I am using it.

Regards.

[3Miro]

What if the structure of a virtualmachine install was shared over Facebook?

Sorry, but I cannot make sense of the OP. Above the is the particularly bad example, but the rest of the post is just as hard to follow.

Ubuntu is the easiest Linux distro to use and this has been their goal from day 1 (about 7 years ago). People don't know computers and they don't care, they just want something that works and Canonical is trying to deliver.

Canonical cannot make an entire OS by themselves so they have to rely on the community for a lot of what they do, particularly the DE. Gnome moved from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3 and the developers decided to change the interface to something that will not work for everyone. Canonical decided to make a new interface of their own that would be more accessible to new users. Hence for Ubuntu 11.10 you will have Gnome 3 with the choice of Unity 2D/3D or Gnome-shell or Gnome Classic.

I hope this answers some of the points made by the OP.

[cariboo]

Ubuntu is just the same underneath the default desktop as it has always been, after all it is a Linux distribution, you can do anything you want, there is nothing to stop you from removing Unity and setting up the desktop the way it suits you.

What I'm seeing is more users prefer to use the distribution defaults, this may be because they haven't actually learned how to use Ubuntu, the same way they know how to use Windows, or that they are happy with the ease of use such that it is.

If you aren't happy with the direction the Ubuntu desktop is taking, use the mini.iso (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD), and setup a desktop that makes you happy.

[koenn]

when I started using Ubuntu maybe 8 or 10 years ago things were very different to how they are now.
here's were you loose all credibility - the first Ubuntu release was less than 7 years ago.



Thoughts?
Your thinking and/or writing needs work. Lots.
From the thread title I can make out that you want to make Ubuntu relevant again, but that's about it.

The rest is just noise. Vague ideas, and sentences running from left to right without knowing where they're going.
No interesting insights, no conclusions, just rambling about - I'm guessing here - how things used to be better, and you don't like Unity.


F

[Thewhistlingwind]

So, let me try and sum this up, to make sure I'm understanding it right:

You want usability, but don't think unity is it.

You want more documentation, easier to access help utilities, but don't see anyone writing them.

You think that Ubuntu is driving towards a cloud model thats unhealthy.

Your mind dreams not of greater integration with servers, but of advanced peer-to-peer capabilities that will feel more like a woven community, like an Ubuntu install is a node in a great network of users.

Am I understanding this correctly?

At any rate, Ubuntu isn't 8+ years old, I think you may mean Linux in general.

[tgm4883]

TL;DR

I kid I kid. But I kinda wish I wasn't. I have no idea what the OP actually wants.

It does seem like he means Linux in general, but the whole thing is confusing. LUGRadio? Mark Shuttleworth's blog? I just don't know where to start. Seems to me that Ubuntu is exactly where it should be with regards to the mission statement (Linux for Human Beans). If you have outgrown Ubuntu, move on to something else.

[jago25_98]

I hope this answers some of the points made by the OP.

Yes that does.

"What I'm seeing is more users prefer to use the distribution defaults, this may be because they haven't actually learned how to use Ubuntu, the same way they know how to use Windows, or that they are happy with the ease of use such that it is."

That's exactly my point. I use the defaults not because I don't understand, but to save time. That situation isn't even on the radar. I used to spend many hours a day fiddling, now I want to spend my time on other things. I've found recently that I've needed to fiddle more than I did for release 6. Have you been finding this too? "still being developed"-grahammechanical

An analogy. The BMW 7 series vs an old army Landrover. Under the bonnet of the army Landrover things are labelled up for the mechanic. Under the bonnet of the 7 series we need specialist diagnostic equipment. Ubuntu is neither of these extremes, so what is it?

I haven't had the chance to try Unity yet. I'm commenting on what it means in terms of ideology.

Should we be playing to the strengths of opensource or forging ahead into new ground? I'm not sure what is happening is either of those things. What do you think?

Sorry for not making points clear. I'm as unclear as Ubuntu ideology feels. Am I mistaken?

Caribou: "Ubuntu is just the same underneath the default desktop as it has always been, after all it is a Linux distribution,"
I remember when I first saw the simple thing of Gentoo colourising Portage with verbose info as to what's going on. That was a revelation. Such a simple thing. What if that attitude was applied across the board to make linux accessible at the core.

nothingspecial: "Are you trying to say that it should be easier for anyone to improve Ubuntu?" Yes. More accessible in that sense too. That would surely have to have a senergetic effect, something that would fit well with Ubuntu.

Don't know about you but I need to get involved with documentation. Hang on, looks like I'm doing such a good job of that right now!

3miro: "People don't know computers and they don't care, they just want something that works and Canonical is trying to deliver." I think that could be the core of it. Are any of us on this thread that person though? To be honest I'm not qualified to say. I don't know how many new users to linux Ubuntu is creating. Does anyone? Has there been some market research here? Are Ubuntu users mostly newbies or experts trying to save time and contribute back? Or is it more complicated than that? Is Ubuntu actually bringing more people to linux? Or do new users take one look and return the netbook back to the shop with `What the heck is this`? I don't know but I'm sure you'll have a guess. Guesses aren't ennough. We need to know for sure.

Thewhistlingwind: yes to all those things. I can't remember how long ago it was I first started using Ubuntu... release 3? I remember at release 6 things were just going up and up (very relevant and becoming more and more so), so much so that I thought it would change the world. I took it for granted, feeling like this is the way things are now but that kind of slowed down even though the userbase exploded. Could you say Ubuntu has played it's part for making the way for Android and other changes we've seen generally with software since then?

Thanks for the feedback. I know it's a meandering post of mine. I should have thought about it for a few weeks before posting to get it all straight but... well it's in the offtopic and I've thrown it out there now.

[jhonan]

I'm being TL;DR'ed to death here.

Much of this is irrelevant to Canonical until the next LTS. Anything they do over the next 12 months can be seen as more-or-less a beta test.

Freaking out over Unity is fine, but remember - it's not impacting Canonical's revenue.

[cariboo]

Actually Unity may be having some impact on Canonicals revenue, some of you may have noticed the new Asus support sub forum, 10.10 is already certified to run on Asus EeePC hardware, with 11.04 only being a month old, can certification of it be far behind?

[Primefalcon]

frankly I like where Ubuntu is and where it's going :D

[3Miro]

Users use system defaults because they don't care. Users are several groups, novice, average and power.

- Novice users only care to know how to get to the Firefox icon to check Facebook, where to click to check mail and where to click to check word documents. Pretty much any interface is good here.

- Average users (the largest group by far) are more or less like the novice ones, but they care to change the desktop background and care about the browser or media player that they use. An interface needs only minimal customization abilities to make most people happy.

- Power users really care about what is happening, where all the shortcuts are and how fast they can access their apps and files. Power users have their own unique idea of what the perfect desktop is and they don't feel satisfied until they get it.

Canonical mostly aims at novice and average users. Power users need to do some tweaking to unlock all the capabilities of the system, but they are used to that anyway. Overall, Ubuntu is more restrictive than other distributions, but in the end, it is attractive enough to all kinds of people.

Canonical also targets non-Linux users a lot. One example is that the default clock settings mimic windows so that Ubuntu will work well with windows dual-boot. If you want to dual-boot Ubuntu and another distribution (for example Gentoo) you will have to do some work to make sure the clock isn't messed up on every reboot.

I am not sure what you mean by "release 6". Ubuntu releases are linked to year-months like 10.04 (April 2010) or 8.10 (October 2008). Compared to other Linux distributions, Ubuntu needs a lot less maintenance. Ubuntu is even better than Windows XP (I haven't really used Vista or 7 so I cannot tell about that).

Ubuntu ideology is to make the system for the lowest common denominator, something that will work well for everyone. Naturally no system can be perfect for everybody, but Canonical is trying to get as close as they can.

More and more places start offering computers with Ubuntu pre-installed, however, finding a computer with per-installed Ubuntu is still hard (and will be for quite some time to come). People end up installing Ubuntu on their own and that is where most of the problems lay. There is plenty of incompatible hardware with large issues or even issues that cannot be resolved. If people hit on good hardware, they keep Ubuntu, if not, they remove Ubuntu and don't come back to it. I think this is the biggest thing holding Ubuntu back (although not the only one).

[jhonan]

Users use system defaults because they don't care. Users are several groups, novice, average and power.

- Novice users only care to know how to get to the Firefox icon to check Facebook, where to click to check mail and where to click to check word documents. Pretty much any interface is good here.

- Average users (the largest group by far) are more or less like the novice ones, but they care to change the desktop background and care about the browser or media player that they use.
I'm not sure this is the case, especially the 'largest group by far' claim.

Given the types of devices we're seeing emerging, I think the segmentation can be kept a lot simpler;

1) Creators

2) Consumers

[uRock]

Actually Unity may be having some impact on Canonicals revenue, some of you may have noticed the new Asus support sub forum, 10.10 is already certified to run on Asus EeePC hardware, with 11.04 only being a month old, can certification of it be far behind?
Yay! I knew there was a reason my Asus Wireless card boasted Linux support on the package.

frankly I like where Ubuntu is and where it's going :D
Me too! I love Unity and I love Ubuntu. I am so glad that Canonical and GNOME alike are moving forward to a newer look and feel, which makes the OS easier to use as well.

[3Miro]

I'm not sure this is the case, especially the 'largest group by far' claim.

Given the types of devices we're seeing emerging, I think the segmentation can be kept a lot simpler;

1) Creators

2) Consumers

Depends for what purpose. Maybe people using iPhones all do more or less the same things, but when it comes to computers, things are different. In no way am I the same "type" of user as my father and a one-size-fit-all solution cannot make both of us happy.

[Allavona]

I'm thoroughly amazed that enough people made sense out the OP to have replies!

At what point in time did Ubuntu lose it's relevancy? Does this mean that all the many distros based on Ubuntu have now become irrelevant? Or, has Linux in general?
Change is always on the horizon with technology and the way we interface with it and use it.

What this really seem to be is a fear of change. A point was made earlier that no one is taking your command-line away from you. Linux is going towards the future. It's no longer the domain of geeks, nerds, trekkers (ME!), etc...

I'm one of the people described in this thread that simply likes things to work by default. I can go to the command-line if need be, but rarely have to in Ubuntu, or any of the other distros that I run at any given time.

[Thewhistlingwind]

I'm probably damaging my reputation by saying this, but I think that if the OP's title wasn't so sensationalist, and his writing a little clearer, he wouldn't be facing such a hostile audience. I actually agree with him on some points.

(To anyone who wants to point out that I don't have a reputation, it is possible to have a negative stigma attached to your name.)

[wolfen69]

frankly I like where Ubuntu is and where it's going :D

So do I, and it will be much better when ubuntu supports gnome 3 fully. Until then, I have to stay with Fedora.

But yeah, I don't understand the OP much. I just don't tend to get all Ideological/philosophical lately when it comes to software. I find what works for me and go with it.

Discussions like this are basically entertainment for me. Kinda like watching a sit-com.

[wolfen69]

I'm probably damaging my reputation by saying this, but I think that if the OP's title wasn't so sensationalist, and his writing a little clearer, he wouldn't be facing such a hostile audience. I actually agree with him on some points.

(To anyone who wants to point out that I don't have a reputation, it is possible to have a negative stigma attached to your name.)

Good one.

Although I would be tempted to say something like: "you can't damage a reputation that's beyond repair". j/k of course.

[Jagoly]

Depends for what purpose. Maybe people using iPhones all do more or less the same things

I agree. I Write c++ code and shell scripts on my iPod. Everyone does that

[forrestcupp]

I'm probably damaging my reputation by saying this, but I think that if the OP's title wasn't so sensationalist, and his writing a little clearer, he wouldn't be facing such a hostile audience.So now we can start looking at you as that type, huh? :) just joking.


I agree. I Write c++ code and shell scripts on my iPod. Everyone does that
Wow! You really are the man, since iPod Touch and iPhone uses Objective C and not C++. :D

[timZZ]

Blah! I really hate that people cannot divide "Linux" from the "User Interface" you can make Ubuntu look like many different desktop versions.

I love how people come on these forums "Someone said something bad about Linux" or "This Linux distribution has lost focus."

1. Linux has always been attacked .. Just like Windows and Apple as everyone loves opinions.
2. 1 thing about Linux be-it for the best or worse ... So many distributions exist, put your vote to whose opinion you like best

[forrestcupp]

put your vote to whose opinion you like bestMy opinion is best! ;)

[Jagoly]

So now we can start looking at you as that type, huh? :) just joking.


Wow! You really are the man, since iPod Touch and iPhone uses Objective C and not C++. :D

however, g++ works on ARM, and can be installed on jailbroken devices.:D

[Swagman]

Actually Unity may be having some impact on Canonicals revenue, some of you may have noticed the new Asus support sub forum, 10.10 is already certified to run on Asus EeePC hardware, with 11.04 only being a month old, can certification of it be far behind?

And Yet I had to downgrade my daughters Eeepc 701 from 10:10 (unity style interface) to 10:04 because it kept freezing up randomly. I assume it doesn't have the Cajones to run > 10:04 (Which runs brilliantly on it).

[Gremlinzzz]

There Ain't No Bugs On Me I Like Unity.Haven't had any bugs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3aFjQ8Emc4
http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=193442&stc=1&d=1306606627