DistroWatch

[DouglasAdams]

i look at the latest releases on distrowatch most days.
today i noticed this entry:

Fedora 15, a new version of one of the leading and most widely used Linux distributions on the market, has been released

"most widely used"?
really?

on the same page it shows ubuntu (orig) as most downloaded followed by mint, fedora is way, way down the list.
and that doesn't include ubuntu other flavours.

can anyone enlighten me as to why distrowatch have this, seemingly, unfounded opinion please?

[Barrucadu]

It doesn't say Fedora is the most widely used, it says "one of the leading and most widely used".

[Random_Dude]

on the same page it shows ubuntu (orig) as most downloaded followed by mint, fedora is way, way down the list.
and that doesn't include ubuntu other flavours.


I think that list is based on page views and not downloads.

Cheers :cool:

[ivanovnegro]

I think that list is based on page views and not downloads.

Cheers :cool:

Right. And I would not trust so much at the statistics on Distrowatch even if you can use it as an orientation.
And Fedora is indeed one of the mostly used OSs I think and also very popular, maybe not as Ubuntu.

[tjwoosta]

Exactly, the HPD (hits per day) list on distrowatch is not an accurate assesment of which distro is the most widely used, only which distro has the most users who visit distrowatch. Most of distrowatch's visitor base would be people looking into switching distros ;)

[Random_Dude]

Exactly, the HPD (hits per day) list on distrowatch is not an accurate assesment of which distro is the most widely used, only which distro has the most users who visit distrowatch. Most of distrowatch's visitor base would be people looking into switching distros ;)

Do you mean that they detect which distro are you using when visiting distrowatch.com? :confused:
I thought it was which distro page on distrowatch had the most hits.

[DouglasAdams]

cheers guys.

now you've got me thinking, why do i still keep looking at distrowatch?
... anyone know if there's a support group for distrowatch addicts plez? :)

it has made me wonder though, does anyone have figures on the number of commercial users of red hat and ubuntu plz?
or is that a state secret?

[Joe of loath]

On distrowatch I always click the interesting distros, not the most used one. I think most would agree with me here that there isn't really any way to gauge usage.

[handy]

I think that DistroWatch is a very loosely valid gauge. It really does give you a pretty good general idea of the popularity of the systems on its list. imho anyway.

Here's another site you can play with:

http://oswatershed.org/

[tjwoosta]

Do you mean that they detect which distro are you using when visiting distrowatch.com? :confused:
I thought it was which distro page on distrowatch had the most hits.

Ohh.. Actually that does make more sense. I may have misinterpreted.

[Dragonbite]

I like looking at the "more statistics (http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity)" link because it gives a mild view of trends.

Like that Fedora for 12, 3 and 1 month time frame is in the #3 slot and only dropped to #4 in the 6 month slot (conceding to Debian).

They always go up around release time too.

And if you watch distro stats so vehemently, what do you think about when PCLinuxOS was in the #1 slot? In the forums here, people were rather mad! It was fun to watch!

[ivanovnegro]

And if you watch distro stats so vehemently, what do you think about when PCLinuxOS was in the #1 slot? In the forums here, people were rather mad! It was fun to watch!

I dont understand why the people were mad, I can remember it was somehow controversial.

[danbuter]

Do you mean that they detect which distro are you using when visiting distrowatch.com? :confused:
I thought it was which distro page on distrowatch had the most hits.

It actually does register what distro you are using, as long as the distro names itself in the internet settings. Ubuntu and Fedora both do. It also measures pages visited.

[danbuter]

on the same page it shows ubuntu (orig) as most downloaded followed by mint, fedora is way, way down the list.
and that doesn't include ubuntu other flavours.


Yeah, Fedora is consistently 3rd or 4th on the list. That's way, way down. :rolleyes:

[Random_Dude]

It actually does register what distro you are using, as long as the distro names itself in the internet settings. Ubuntu and Fedora both do. It also measures pages visited.

I didn't know it was possible to know that much about who visits the webpage. I though the most you could know is that the computer was running Linux.

If it is that easy to get such detailed information about webpage visits, is there any data on the OSs that people use when visiting Google? That should give a more accurate OSs market-share statistic than just speculation.

[Simian Man]

I didn't know it was possible to know that much about who visits the webpage. I though the most you could know is that the computer was running Linux.

If it is that easy to get such detailed information about webpage visits, is there any data on the OSs that people use when visiting Google? That should give a more accurate OSs market-share statistic than just speculation.

By default most distros append the distro name to "linux" in their browser packages. For example, "linuxfedora" or "linuxubuntu". My browser is built from source though, so it just says "linux".

[forrestcupp]

DistroWatch is not a good source for statistics. Whether it detects your system or it counts the number of page hits, it's only measuring people who visit DistroWatch. I really doubt if the majority of Linux users regularly visit DistroWatch enough to come up with valid statistics.

I'd say Fedora is definitely at the top of the list of popular distributions. Even on DistroWatch, it's now #4 (right at this exact time).

DistroWatch is a good source of information, but a horrible source for accurate statistics.

[Joe of loath]

I didn't know it was possible to know that much about who visits the webpage. I though the most you could know is that the computer was running Linux.

If it is that easy to get such detailed information about webpage visits, is there any data on the OSs that people use when visiting Google? That should give a more accurate OSs market-share statistic than just speculation.

Linuxquestions.org displays the operating system used to make each post. Mine just shows up as 'Linux', though. <snip>

[tmette]

I didn't know it was possible to know that much about who visits the webpage. I though the most you could know is that the computer was running Linux.

If it is that easy to get such detailed information about webpage visits, is there any data on the OSs that people use when visiting Google? That should give a more accurate OSs market-share statistic than just speculation.

You would be surprised what websites can track with their statistics. Even the free Google Analytics tracking is very impressive. My favorite is the IP tracking and see exactly where they were at geographically when they accessed the site.

[Random_Dude]

You would be surprised what websites can track with their statistics. Even the free Google Analytics tracking is very impressive. My favorite is the IP tracking and see exactly where they were at geographically when they accessed the site.

I am aware that you could track location, I didn't knew you could get to the detail of knowing your distro (I knew that it is possible to know that you run linux when accessing a website).

If it is possible to get that many information, how come nobody has accurate numbers on OS market-share?

[itguy1985]

One would think RHEL is the most widely used, and it can't be downloaded. I could be wrong, but isn't RHEL all over the place?

[RiceMonster]

One would think RHEL is the most widely used, and it can't be downloaded. I could be wrong, but isn't RHEL all over the place?

On the server side for business, yep.

[jhonan]

I think the distrowatch top distros list itself skews the numbers. I can imagine a lot of people look at the list and pick one of the top ten, for fear of installing some obscure unsupported no-friends distro.

I wonder what would happen if they removed that ranked list for a couple of months, and just had an alphabetic list of distros; would the top ten look different then?

[Macskeeball]

an alphabetic list of distros
Or randomized.

[sffvba[e0rt]

I think the distrowatch top distros list itself skews the numbers. I can imagine a lot of people look at the list and pick one of the top ten, for fear of installing some obscure unsupported no-friends distro.

I wonder what would happen if they removed that ranked list for a couple of months, and just had an alphabetic list of distros; would the top ten look different then?


Or randomized.

Sure... then more people will have a reason to bad-mouth GNU/Linux after having some horrible experience :/ Ubuntu wasn't always at the top (and their is a reason they are).



404

[forrestcupp]

If it is possible to get that many information, how come nobody has accurate numbers on OS market-share?

Because people have to visit your web site for you to be able to track them. There are plenty of OS tracking sites for statistics out there, but it's not accurate for that reason. It's pretty biased. I'm sure a tech website tracking OSs would have a much higher percentage of Linux users than a crocheting website.

[Macskeeball]

Sure... then more people will have a reason to bad-mouth GNU/Linux after having some horrible experience :/ Ubuntu wasn't always at the top (and their is a reason they are).



404


True. I think a top distros list is the best way. I was only pointing out that an alphabetized list would still have a bias. It would tend to favor the beginning of the alphabet. It's not an experiment that will ever really happen, so my suggestion of a randomized list was in a hypothetical, sort of academic context.



Because people have to visit your web site for you to be able to track them. There are plenty of OS tracking sites for statistics out there, but it's not accurate for that reason. It's pretty biased. I'm sure a tech website tracking OSs would have a much higher percentage of Linux users than a crocheting website.
Actually, not quite. Analytics services such as StatCounter (http://gs.statcounter.com/faq#methodology) have JavaScript that gets embedded onto regular websites. There's also Google analytics, but I'm not familiar with it so I don't know if they publish the stats for all sites combined.

[handy]

By default most distros append the distro name to "linux" in their browser packages. For example, "linuxfedora" or "linuxubuntu". My browser is built from source though, so it just says "linux".

Where does it say this?

In the user.agent.string?

[tjwoosta]

Yep.. Useragent

But not all useragent strings include the distro name

I know Firefox does on Fedora 14 though

[handy]

Yep.. Useragent

But not all useragent strings include the distro name

I know Firefox does on Fedora 14 though

I make mine say NT, & Firefox 4.0, weren't you using OS X, & Safari?

[Random_Dude]

Because people have to visit your web site for you to be able to track them. There are plenty of OS tracking sites for statistics out there, but it's not accurate for that reason. It's pretty biased. I'm sure a tech website tracking OSs would have a much higher percentage of Linux users than a crocheting website.

How about Google?
If you choose Microsoft.com, apple.com or slashdot.org you're going to get biased data.
Almost everyone in the world accesses Google and I'm sure that this kind of information would be very useful to Google itself.

[DouglasAdams]

Yeah, Fedora is consistently 3rd or 4th on the list. That's way, way down. :rolleyes:

accepting what's been said about these numbers ... and then totally ignoring it :)

roll your eyes as much as you like dan but fedora (& debian) are both around the fourteen and a half hundred mark; ububtu (orig) is almost twenty-three hundred; add in "k" & "x" flavours (so that we are comparing like-for-like) and ubuntu comes to almost 3k

over double is pretty "way down" in my opinion

[DouglasAdams]

Because people have to visit your web site for you to be able to track them. There are plenty of OS tracking sites for statistics out there, but it's not accurate for that reason. It's pretty biased. I'm sure a tech website tracking OSs would have a much higher percentage of Linux users than a crocheting website.

would that mean that a better "tracking" site would be the stats from a porn site :D

only joking, but surely google would be ... pity here's no obvious money in it for them

[boydrice]

For those interested in Fedora's own metrics you might find this page interesting.

fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics

[forrestcupp]

Actually, not quite. Analytics services such as StatCounter (http://gs.statcounter.com/faq#methodology) have JavaScript that gets embedded onto regular websites. There's also Google analytics, but I'm not familiar with it so I don't know if they publish the stats for all sites combined.You still have to visit the web sites that run their tracker. In the case of StatCounter, that just happens to be a lot of web sites. StatCounter is probably a much more accurate source of statistics than DistroWatch.


How about Google?
If you choose Microsoft.com, apple.com or slashdot.org you're going to get biased data.
Almost everyone in the world accesses Google and I'm sure that this kind of information would be very useful to Google itself.Google has Google Analytics, but I'm not sure if they use it on their own site. It supposedly slows a web site down. Also, I don't know how accurate it is since ad blockers can hinder it.

[Random_Dude]

Google has Google Analytics, but I'm not sure if they use it on their own site. It supposedly slows a web site down. Also, I don't know how accurate it is since ad blockers can hinder it.

True, I block it with NoScript.
But still, it's probably the most accurate way you can get.

[galacticaboy]

Fedora is extremely popular, Ubuntu is more popular due to it being a lost easier though. Fedora is popular among the advanced crowd, as well as businesses and some new people.

[CraigPaleo]

I think that list is based on page views and not downloads.

Cheers :cool:

Yes, only page views.


The figures in the third column of each table represent the average number of hits per day for the specified period. The tables are updated daily at around 90 minutes past midnight GMT.
http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity

[danbuter]

In one of the recent Distrowatch Weekly comment sections, they mentioned they also record the distro you use. Maybe it's not listed officially, but they do it.

[DouglasAdams]

and, as if by magic, the perfect answer has just arrived in the latest How-To Geek Newsletter

Great Linux World Map Surveys the State of the Linux Empire

http://www.howtogeek.com/news/great-linux-world-map-surveys-the-state-of-the-linux-empire/5039/

thanks everyone

[DouglasAdams]

...Ubuntu is more popular due to it being a lost easier though...Fedora is popular among the advanced crowd...

LOL
i have just found their "Verify your ISO Download" & "How does Fedora Project use GPG keys to sign packages?".

i now realise that by "easier" you weren't joking and by "advanced crowd" you mean master class geek. i guess i could work my way through it but it does seem rather OTT to me. md5 seems to be good enough for most distro's, what makes Fedora so different? or do they make it that complicated to frighten people like me away?
well, they have certainly succeeded !

[ivanovnegro]

LOL
i have just found their "Verify your ISO Download" & "How does Fedora Project use GPG keys to sign packages?".

i now realise that by "easier" you weren't joking and by "advanced crowd" you mean master class geek. i guess i could work my way through it but it does seem rather OTT to me. md5 seems to be good enough for most distro's, what makes Fedora so different? or do they make it that complicated to frighten people like me away?
well, they have certainly succeeded !

Fedora wants the users to use only free software and drivers like in freedom, no proprietary things, so if you want to get some drivers you have to hunt for the workarounds but it is neither too difficult, only some steps more to have a working system out of the box. But for some people its enough work to not try Fedora.

[Joe of loath]

Fedora is nice, but it's specifically targeted towards developers. They have specifically said they don't want to attract users, they want to attract people who can contribute to Linux in general.

Personally, I use Arch. Complicated enough to be fun, but not as bad as Gentoo, when your PC is sat compiling X for four days every time it's updated.

[Spice Weasel]

LOL
i have just found their "Verify your ISO Download" & "How does Fedora Project use GPG keys to sign packages?".

i now realise that by "easier" you weren't joking and by "advanced crowd" you mean master class geek. i guess i could work my way through it but it does seem rather OTT to me. md5 seems to be good enough for most distro's, what makes Fedora so different? or do they make it that complicated to frighten people like me away?
well, they have certainly succeeded !

And Linux users criticize MS for spreading FUD...

[DouglasAdams]

Ivan:
that's me ... never was in the work for works sake category.
if i ever feel "fedorally inclined" again i'll head for Scientific Linux.

Joe:
i did look at Gentoo a long time ago ... but not for long :)
thanks m8, but even Arch looks far too much "fun" for me.

[Joe of loath]

It takes a special kind of nerd to enjoy Arch :p

[DouglasAdams]

And Linux users criticize MS for spreading FUD...
what's fud about two pages of instructions compared to "here's the md5" ?

[DouglasAdams]

It takes a special kind of nerd to enjoy Arch :p
put me in the "way too old nerd" category. now if Arch had been around in the mid 70's ...

[irv]

When it come to DistroWatch, I have downloaded just about every distor out there but that doesn't mean I am using them. I just like seeing what's new and giving them a test drive. Kinda like test driving new cars as they come on the market. (But I am still driving my old one) I think you get the point.

[Spice Weasel]

what's fud about two pages of instructions compared to "here's the md5" ?


i now realise that by "easier" you weren't joking and by "advanced crowd" you mean master class geek.

Your post, not the Fedora documentation.

[DouglasAdams]

When it come to DistroWatch, I have downloaded just about every distor out there but that doesn't mean I am using them. I just like seeing what's new and giving them a test drive. Kinda like test driving new cars as they come on the market. (But I am still driving my old one) I think you get the point.

you and me too irv

[DouglasAdams]

Your post, not the Fedora documentation.

my post was about the "need" for so much fedora documentation when a simple md5 is sufficient for every other distro.

why use md5 when two pages of instructions will do?

[irv]

my post was about the "need" for so much fedora documentation when a simple md5 is sufficient for every other distro.

why use md5 when two pages of instructions will do?

This is kinda like when I went out and bought a couple of books on Ubuntu. I look through them and now they sit on the shelve and collect dust. If I have a problem or question I just jump on the Internet and get an answer. The books do come in handy when my wife goes shopping and I need something to read while I wait for her. But most of the time I have my laptop with me and I am sitting in a coffee shop on the Internet anyway.

[DouglasAdams]

This is kinda like when I went out and bought a couple of books on Ubuntu. I look through them and now they sit on the shelve and collect dust. If I have a problem or question I just jump on the Internet and get an answer. The books do come in handy when my wife goes shopping and I need something to read while I wait for her. But most of the time I have my laptop with me and I am sitting in a coffee shop on the Internet anyway.

i'm all in favour of the paper stuff - just in case there's no internet. what i'm not in favour of is needing to have so much documentation for such a complex verification system when other distro's simply use checksum. even if the fedora way is better for some hypothetical case, why not provide a simple checksum too?

[danbuter]

You're obviously not l33t enough to use Fedora. ):P

[Joe of loath]

You're obviously not l33t enough to use Fedora. ):P

Pff, you want to know 1337? 1337 is compiling Gentoo on a 486 using only your nether regions and a midi keyboard as input devices.

[Dragonbite]

Pff, you want to know 1337? 1337 is compiling Gentoo on a 486 using only your nether regions and a midi keyboard as input devices.

Darn, I was half-way there!

[forrestcupp]

Pff, you want to know 1337? 1337 is compiling Gentoo on a 486 using only your nether regions and a midi keyboard as input devices.

I develop my own kernel on a Commodore 64 using only my thoughts. ;)

I like the midi keyboard idea, though. :)

[Spice Weasel]

I develop my own kernel on a Commodore 64 using only my thoughts. ;)

I like the midi keyboard idea, though. :)

I chisel my hard drive platter to form the ones and zeroes of an operating system. ;)

[jhonan]

I chisel my hard drive platter to form the ones and zeroes of an operating system. ;)
I construct my own CPU out of a vast array of handmade vacuum tubes, before hard-wiring the OS using a bank of photo-sensitive diodes and a torch.

[forrestcupp]

I speak in a commanding voice and games and spreadsheets appear before my eyes in mid air.

[Bart_D]

Arch Linux is at number 6, on distrowatch?

HOW? How any Linux novice EVEN consider it is beyond me.

According to me, Arch is taking Linux in the opposite direction of Ubuntu. I find it to be a terrible distro. I am shocked that it is no. 6!

[tjwoosta]

Right... How dare they take things in the opposite direction of ubuntu! How dare people be different than me!

Linux is about freedom. So what if some people like to do things different? Its not like Arch's success is in any way going to hinder Ubuntu's. They have opposite goals, and opposing user bases. Some people like to use a system that makes all the decisions and does everything for them, others like to build their own environment from the bottom up.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches, its every users prerogative to choose what suits them best. Some people like a low maintenance car with an automatic transmission, others want a custom built sports car with a manual transmission.

[DouglasAdams]

then there's gentoo where you build your own universe in the corner of your office which you nurture to evolve life then trees which you use to make the chassis of your morganesque sports car before designing a new propulsion system and seating arrangements, steering by thought control and a body which converts into a winged structure with vertical take-off and warp drive so you can miss any traffic jams or road-works.

[doorknob60]

Arch Linux is at number 6, on distrowatch?
Yeah, so? It's pretty popular, that's what they are measuring.


HOW? How any Linux novice EVEN consider it is beyond me.
I agree, novices shouldn't try to use Arch (well unless they are good at following directions)


According to me, Arch is taking Linux in the opposite direction of Ubuntu.
Good, why should everyone try to be like Ubuntu? Ubuntu's good, but it's not for everyone, same with any OS.


I find it to be a terrible distro.

A little harsh, but if you don't like it, then don't use it, fine with me.


I am shocked that it is no. 6!
Again, it's quite popular, #6 sounds about right.

[Thewhistlingwind]

HOW? How any Linux novice EVEN consider it is beyond me.


:popcorn: Yeah, that's not their userbase.

Regardless, why not use a distro with a full wiki and an emphasis on choice and simplicity?

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_linux)

[Spice Weasel]

HOW? How any Linux novice EVEN consider it is beyond me.

Well, you know. Some users like to try out something new and learn it.

[irv]

There are those that just go to the store and buy their food, while other grow their food in a garden. (Like me). But the problem with gardening is the ground is cursed and weeds need to be removed.

This is a lot like Linux. But instead of weeds we have bugs. But in the end there is a satisfaction of doing it yourself and saving a little money along the way. The last point is a comparison between Linux and other OS's.

I like the idea of many distros, some I like and some I don't. Not everyone like Broccoli, so don't grow it or buy it if you don't like it.

[forrestcupp]

Arch Linux is at number 6, on distrowatch?


They get a lot of free PR on Ubuntu Forums, which is the forum for the #1 distro. :)

[satanselbow]

There are those that just go to the store and buy their food, while other grow their food in a garden. (Like me). But the problem with gardening is the ground is cursed and weeds need to be removed.

This is a lot like Linux. But instead of weeds we have bugs. But in the end there is a satisfaction of doing it yourself and saving a little money along the way. The last point is a comparison between Linux and other OS's.

I like the idea of many distros, some I like and some I don't. Not everyone like Broccoli, so don't grow it or buy it if you don't like it.

Hey! I like that analagy... i do hope it came with a FOSS license... :D

And of course if you grew it youself you have more incentive to reap a better harvest next season... if you bought it at the shop you would be returning it for a full refund :popcorn:

[hhh]

I close my eyes and am instantly transported to a holodeck scenario of my choosing.

You guys were on a roll.

[irv]

Hey! I like that analagy... i do hope it came with a FOSS license... :D

And of course if you grew it youself you have more incentive to reap a better harvest next season... if you bought it at the shop you would be returning it for a full refund :popcorn:

Very good and yes, it came with a FOSS license :p

[ladislav]

Guys, DistroWatch is 100% accurate ... in what it measures, i.e. the number of clicks on each of the distribution pages on DistroWatch. Nothing more and nothing less.

It always puzzles me why there are so many arguments about whether the ranking there is "accurate" or not. I've stated many times that the ranking doesn't represent quality, downloads, usage, popularity, etc. At the broad sense of the word it could maybe roughly correlate to "what's hot among the DistroWatch visitors", but even that would be stretching it.

So please stop arguing whether the DistroWatch ranking is "accurate" or not and just accept it for what it is - a simple measurement of page views that exists mainly for fun.

Cheers :-)

[tjwoosta]

@ ladislav: Well technically its not very accurate for counting page hits either because "Only one hit per IP address per day is counted." :p

from here (http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity)

[DouglasAdams]

ladislav:
as the originator of this thread i would like to say that, regardless of accuracy, intent, ... whatever, the post has certainly started some very interesting discussions, and, considering the number & frequency of replies, i can't possibly be the only one who thinks that. dare i say that it's also been a lot of fun too.

[CraigPaleo]

@ ladislav: Well technically its not very accurate for counting page hits either because "Only one hit per IP address per day is counted." :p

from here (http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity)

They count unique page hits.