Why Windows coming soon to ARM is good...

[PhillyPhil]

...IMHO.

It's good because MS occupies a (relatively) huge space in the minds of the general public when it comes to computing, so Windows on ARM is going to be a MASSIVE boost for ARM, a blow to Intel, and we're going to start seeing a lot more ARM based personal computers for sale than there are at the moment.

That's enough to make me happy, because I'm an ARM fan (mainly because ARM products have a much better [processing power / energy consumption] ratio than any existing x86 chips) and this may mean in the not too distant future I'll be able to move *all* my computing to ARM products (and Ubuntu for ARM means I won't even have to change OS...).

To be honest I hadn't really thought about whether this is good for Linux or not (I'm only interested in what it does for ARM), but I suppose it probably will be, because:
- although Linux distros for ARM will now have to compete with Windows, at least there will me an ARM market to compete in!
- Windows ARM will break compatibility with all existing Windows software (except Office, which will be ported), which is going to remove a big hurdle between Joe Public and Linux.

EDIT: a link for anyone living under a rock ;) : https://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2011/jan11/01-05socsupport.mspx

[Paqman]

It's good for Linux, because maybe OEMs will feel like they can actually push ARM netbooks out to market. And then we can put Linux on them.

[Lucradia]

It's good for Linux, because maybe OEMs will feel like they can actually push ARM netbooks out to market. And then we can put Linux on them.

Tegra is ARM, if I remember, which runs Android 3 really well.

There's also a big ARM team that contributes to ReactOS alongside Wine.

[Paqman]

Tegra is ARM, if I remember, which runs Android 3 really well.

There's also a big ARM team that contributes to ReactOS alongside Wine.

Sure, but the market has hardly seen the flood of ARM devices that was predicted once upon a time (tablets running phone OSes aside)

[Oxwivi]

[...] a blow to Intel [...]
Why would we want that? Intel is one of the most open-source friendly manufacturers. I would rather Intel took over mobile computing with their upcoming even more efficient x86 chips.

[el_koraco]

Why would we want that? Intel is one of the most open-source friendly manufacturers.

Diversity and competition is always good and everybody profits from it.

[uRock]

It's good for Linux, because maybe OEMs will feel like they can actually push ARM netbooks out to market. And then we can put Linux on them.


Diversity and competition is always good and everybody profits from it.

+1 to both.

[forrestcupp]

That's enough to make me happy, because I'm an ARM fan (mainly because ARM products have a much better [processing power / energy consumption] ratio than any existing x86 chips)

ARM doesn't have built in floating point operations, does it? If that's the case, it's processing power is only better in certain cases.

Besides, there is not going to be a mass move to ARM just because of Windows. The reason people want Windows is because of compatibility. If they can't run any of their software they've invested in, they're not going to go that way. Even all of the free software we use will have to be rewritten to run on that platform.

The reason Windows is porting to ARM is for tablets, not for desktops and laptops.

[Simian Man]

Even all of the free software we use will have to be rewritten to run on that platform.

No, it will just have to be re-compiled. With very few exceptions this is trivial with open source.

[forrestcupp]

No, it will just have to be re-compiled. With very few exceptions this is trivial with open source.

Well, that's good.

[Lucradia]

Well, that's good.

But bad for commercial games and windows itself.

[PhillyPhil]

ARM doesn't have built in floating point operations, does it? If that's the case, it's processing power is only better in certain cases.
Yes, ARM has had fp registers and operations since way back when. Sure, technically it's by ''extension'', but a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Besides, there is not going to be a mass move to ARM just because of Windows. The reason people want Windows is because of compatibility. If they can't run any of their software they've invested in, they're not going to go that way. Even all of the free software we use will have to be rewritten to run on that platform. Not a mass move no, but a *relatively* massive move. There's going to be many more ARM devices, and many more people using ARM because of this.

Linux has open source software, so porting isn't a big deal for us.
The reason Windows is porting to ARM is for tablets, not for desktops and laptops. That may be the main reason, but that isn't going to stop manufacturers putting it on other hardware.

[PhillyPhil]

Why would we want that? Intel is one of the most open-source friendly manufacturers. I would rather Intel took over mobile computing with their upcoming even more efficient x86 chips.

Like someone already said, competition is a wonderful thing. Wintel is a huge beast, and chipping a few pieces off the side is a good start to bringing them down to a more level playing field.
Intel is no 'angel of freedom': AMD and VIA can produce x86 chips only because of licencing agreements (and only because IBM forced Intel to licence in the 1980s), and Intel refuses to licence to anyone else.

Intels ''even more efficient'' chips are more efficient than current Intel chips, but not ARM's.
Even if they do produce chips in the full 0.5-10W TDP range they're claiming, their lower end (efficiency) will be competing with ARM's upper end!
ARM already has chips more efficient than Intels planned future best, and from the history of performance/power draw ratios we've seen from these two architectures I'd guess that an Intel chip with 0.5W TDP will be well and truly outperformed by a similar ARM chip.
x86 chips just have too much legacy cruft, and they were never designed with efficiency as a major goal in the first place.

[NightwishFan]

Debian already has an armel port. :)
http://www.debian.org/ports/arm/

To be quite honest I am hoping for some awesome linux friendly ARM netbooks. If they do not show up in the next few years I am probably going to buy the Zareason Teo.

[Oxwivi]

Like someone already said, competition is a wonderful thing. Wintel is a huge beast, and chipping a few pieces off the side is a good start to bringing them down to a more level playing field.
Intel is no 'angel of freedom': AMD and VIA can produce x86 chips only because of licencing agreements (and only because IBM forced Intel to licence in the 1980s), and Intel refuses to licence to anyone else.

Intels ''even more efficient'' chips are more efficient than current Intel chips, but not ARM's.
Even if they do produce chips in the full 0.5-10W TDP range they're claiming, their lower end (efficiency) will be competing with ARM's upper end!
ARM already has chips more efficient than Intels planned future best, and from the history of performance/power draw ratios we've seen from these two architectures I'd guess that an Intel chip with 0.5W TDP will be well and truly outperformed by a similar ARM chip.
x86 chips just have too much legacy cruft, and they were never designed with efficiency as a major goal in the first place.
S-stop! D-d-don't detract me from the x86 loving track! I'm too lazy to bother finding packages built for ARM. When will Ubuntu's ARM port become official? Launchpad needs to offer ARM packages as well if x86 is really on the way to it's downfall.

[doorknob60]

Yeah, Linux has a hige advantage in the ARM market. Because most windows software is proprietary, none of it will work on ARM Windows unless the developpers port it, so if people use ARM Windows and try to run all of their favorite programs, they won't work and they won't be happy. With Linux, most software is free and open source, so all you need to do is compile it and it will work, all the same old software, no extra effort :)

[forrestcupp]

That may be the main reason, but that isn't going to stop manufacturers putting it on other hardware.
That isn't going to stop buyers from wanting an x86 based computer because they want compatibility, though. I just don't think there is going to be a huge movement. People who buy Windows for ARM are going to look at those devices as a totally different animal, kind of like Android.

I'm glad to know ARM has floating point capabilities, though.

[PhillyPhil]

S-stop! D-d-don't detract me from the x86 loving track! I'm too lazy to bother finding packages built for ARM. When will Ubuntu's ARM port become official? Launchpad needs to offer ARM packages as well if x86 is really on the way to it's downfall.

:P

Re Ubuntu on ARM, I just realised I personally don't even know if there is such a thing. I was thinking about Debian, sorry!
That isn't going to stop buyers from wanting an x86 based computer because they want compatibility, though. I just don't think there is going to be a huge movement. People who buy Windows for ARM are going to look at those devices as a totally different animal, kind of like Android. MS thinks it's worth making an ARM port.
I assume initially it will be on tablets, and people will buy them because of familiarity with Windows.
But once you sell X number of Windows tablets you have acceptance/knowledge/community of Windows ARM, and that will allow other devices to be sold with the same OS.

[forrestcupp]

But once you sell X number of Windows tablets you have acceptance/knowledge/community of Windows ARM, and that will allow other devices to be sold with the same OS.

True, but they'll have to take the time to build up a sturdy app base before it takes off on laptops. On the other hand, I think they're getting into the tablet market way too late, and it won't take off. Just look at Windows Mobile 7 on the phone.

[jerenept]

True, but they'll have to take the time to build up a sturdy app base before it takes off on laptops. On the other hand, I think they're getting into the tablet market way too late, and it won't take off. Just look at Windows Mobile 7 on the phone.

Nokia?

[PhillyPhil]

True, but they'll have to take the time to build up a sturdy app base before it takes off on laptops. On the other hand, I think they're getting into the tablet market way too late, and it won't take off. Just look at Windows Mobile 7 on the phone.

I think they'll do much better in tablets than they've done in phones. Regardless of how well they do, this is still going to have *some* effect on the acceptance/adoption of ARM, and as a fan of ARM that puts a smile on my face ;)

[Johnsie]

Arm is nice in smaller products... but it's so crippled I would never want it on my main machine.

[PhillyPhil]

Arm is nice in smaller products... but it's so crippled I would never want it on my main machine.

I'd say you're probably badly informed about ARM.
Never is a long time.
Crippled how?

ARM's focus is not raw processing power, it's efficiency. If you use your machine for high-end gaming or rendering ARM is probably not for you.

If, on the other hand, the most taxing thing you do is play 1080p video, an ARM machine can give you much more processing power than you need, and much more efficiently.

Here's an old(1.5 years) video from ARM of Cortex A9 vs Atom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4W6lVQl3QA&feature=player_embedded
The Atom is a little faster, but it has its graphics processor while the Cortex A9 is doing this well without its graphics processor, and the Cortex A9 is only running at 500MHz, but can be scaled up to at least 2.5GHz.
This doesn't prove anything, of course, except that ARM chips can at the very least be considered genuine competitors in the Atom's processing power category.

Another way that ARM scales well is number of cores. There are already companies planning to sell ARM based servers, with hundreds of cores.
The next PSP is built around a quad-core A9 with quad-core GPU.

The A9 has already been superseded by the more powerful A15 anyway, so in the future you can expect to see some slight stretching of ARM's range, extending upwards into the (relatively) higher performance areas (something to beat the latest Atom would be nice to see ;) ).

[Simian Man]

Arm is nice in smaller products... but it's so crippled I would never want it on my main machine.

There's nothing stopping anyone from making an ARM processor that matches the performance of an Intel i7. ARM is just an instruction set architecture, not a particular micro-architecture. Just because all of the existing ARM micro-architectures are aimed at efficiency over performance, doesn't mean that they all have to be. I mean x86 was developed without planning for deep pipelining, out-of-order execution, register renaming, or any of the other things high-performance x86 chips do today.

[Dr. C]

Yeah, Linux has a hige advantage in the ARM market. Because most windows software is proprietary, none of it will work on ARM Windows unless the developpers port it, so if people use ARM Windows and try to run all of their favorite programs, they won't work and they won't be happy. With Linux, most software is free and open source, so all you need to do is compile it and it will work, all the same old software, no extra effort :)

Very true. A GNU / Linux user will not notice much of a difference between ARM and Intel as far as application compatibility is concerned but to a Microsoft Windows user ARM will for the foreseeable future be an inferior platform as most of the applications will not work.

The biggest advantage of ARM over Intel is energy efficiency.

[timZZ]

Exciting