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manzdagratiano
May 19th, 2011, 03:18 PM
I am voicing here a concern that I am sure many have had before in various places, but I think it is high time to take action, considering the squashing of Bug #1.

The Ubuntu wiki documentation is confusing as hell. A new user will have no idea where to look for information, and will inevitably land up here on the forums and ask n00bish questions that could have been answered by the Wiki in the first place.

For starters, I would suggest the following two changes:

1> What is now called the "Ubuntu Wiki" really deserves to be part of the "Official Documentation", and should be renamed as such.

2> What is now called "Community Ubuntu Documentation" is really the "Ubuntu Wiki" by definition, and should be renamed as such.

In fact, doing a simple Google search for "Ubuntu Wiki" does not lead directly to any place that has useful "wiki"-like documentation to help new users find their way.

A "wiki" is traditionally what a community edits for the benefit of all that may follow, like Wikipedia. Calling the official documentation a "wiki" is misleading, and the problem is worsened by pointing the user to two different links there - the "official documentation", and the "community help pages". This, I believe is one of the primary reasons the Ubuntu wiki is in a state of disdain (I do not believe anybody here would disagree, for this has similarly been voiced unanimously in the thread regarding removing the Ubuntu Archives). Indeed, I do agree that a wiki is made by what the community makes it, but the community should have incentive to create a top notch wiki in the first place.

Take the (some people would say here "notorious") example of Arch Linux. It has probably the most excellent Wiki one could ask for; with Arch there's two things - there's Arch, and there's the ArchWiki. Most of the qualms a new user may have may be solved directly by reading the wiki - there's no five different places a user has to refer to to find what information is relevant and what is out of date.

I would like to propose going with the changes I described above. This would also provide more incentive for users, indeed such as myself, to go ahead and contribute to the central documentation that shall be a reference point for Ubuntu users.

By the way, I do notice a site called "ubuntuwiki.net" - if this is a new effort in this direction as was discussed earlier in the forums, please make me aware of the same. Also, I would suggest hogging the domain address "wiki.ubuntu.com" precisely for such a purpose.

EDIT: I have landed at the correct place to create some noise regarding the issue - the Ubuntu Documentation Team mailing list:

ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com

I have just opened a thread in the list summarizing much in this thread and in the corresponding Launchpad bug I opened:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/792979

(for which Thewhistlingwind has been my Wing Man) and it should be posted to the archives soon. I would like to urge the Mods, as well as the veterans of the forums, whose HOWTO's and help tweaks I have derived much benefit from - bodhi.zazen, cariboo907, drs305, K.Mandla, lisati (the list goes on) - to pray chime into the discussion there. This matter has long slid away, but it cannot be allowed to anymore. The wealth of information in the forum archives cannot be allowed to slip into the folds of posteriority!

manzdagratiano
May 24th, 2011, 01:01 AM
I beseech that somebody pray tell me who to appeal to to do anything about such a thing.

handy
May 24th, 2011, 01:14 PM
Good luck!

I'm starting to think that there are immoveable objects behind the scenes that are anchoring the Ubuntu wiki/documentation mess & causing it to remain static.

Trying to change it, seems to be as difficult as getting changes made in any large bureaucracy. Which is usually impossible.

SecretCode
May 24th, 2011, 02:21 PM
You could post your suggestion at Popular ideas - Ubuntu brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/). No guarantee it will get a thorough consideration let alone implementation.

The only real way to promote something like this is to become the person who can do something about such a thing. The open source mantra ... "do it yourself".

Specifically, build the entire wiki / official documentation the way you see it should be, and then propose that your site is adopted as the official site.

handy
May 25th, 2011, 03:20 AM
Which is a mammoth task requiring a coordinated team of like minded individuals sharing the same focus.

The aforementioned requirement is very likely why the Ubuntu wiki/documentation projects remain as fragmented as they are.

Some people can't accept that their idea(s) could do with a dramatic overhaul.

manzdagratiano
May 26th, 2011, 06:00 PM
You could post your suggestion at Popular ideas - Ubuntu brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/). No guarantee it will get a thorough consideration let alone implementation.

The only real way to promote something like this is to become the person who can do something about such a thing. The open source mantra ... "do it yourself".

Specifically, build the entire wiki / official documentation the way you see it should be, and then propose that your site is adopted as the official site.

Yikes!!! This is that hard? There has got to be an easier way - like with Debian you just email debian-devel, and they tell you to either STFU or make some suggestions. Launchpad I know is the one way to reach people such that it matters if they listen. Maybe I should file a bug to this effect? Come to think of it, this is actually also important for Bug #1!!!

The implementation part is the easy part - the devs need not re-create the Wiki, they just need to
a) put it in an obvious place like I said
b) make it an actual wiki by allowing the community to edit it.

and it will take off! Like every other wiki!!!

manzdagratiano
May 26th, 2011, 06:07 PM
By the way does anybody know who created this?:

http://ubuntuwiki.net/index.php/Main_Page

If there is *any* official backing to this, then the hardest part of rebuilding the entire wiki again is already done! - We can already start storming pages on there, and then request this be made the official wiki linking off from Ubuntu's home page!

Thewhistlingwind
May 27th, 2011, 02:47 PM
You could post your suggestion at Popular ideas - Ubuntu brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/). No guarantee it will get a thorough consideration let alone implementation.

The only real way to promote something like this is to become the person who can do something about such a thing. The open source mantra ... "do it yourself".

Specifically, build the entire wiki / official documentation the way you see it should be, and then propose that your site is adopted as the official site.

Well sure, if you want to see how that task would play out, open up terminal, and do the following.

1. Press tab twice
2. hit Y

After scrolling through all that, each one of those commands would need a wiki page. It would take more then one.

manzdagratiano
May 27th, 2011, 03:28 PM
That's probably overkill, but Community Documentation already exists as a huge body of knowledge. if it can be merely reorganized into the above Ubuntuwiki.net, we have a huge start!

manzdagratiano
May 28th, 2011, 10:17 PM
Who runs ubuntuwiki.net?

Does it have any official backing?

The website is at the moment vacant, and it says it is intended to be a sister site to freebsdwiki.net.

Thewhistlingwind
May 28th, 2011, 10:22 PM
Well, whois spat out this.


Whois Server Version 0.93

Registrar WHOIS: Domain Registration Services
Domain Name: UBUNTUWIKI.NET
Registrant: (662339-DRSS)
JIM SALTER
1400 LAFAYETTE AVENUE
CAYCE, SC 29033
US
Administrative Contact: (662340-DRSS)
Salter, Jim dotearth@jrssystems.net
1400 Lafayette Avenue
Cayce SC 29033 US
+1.8036650295
Technical Contact: (662341-DRSS)
Salter, Jim dotearth@jrssystems.net
1400 Lafayette Avenue
Cayce SC 29033 US
+1.8036650295

Record last updated on: 2011-05-25 19:01:10.0 UTC
Record created on: 2008-05-12 14:23:12.0 UTC
Record expires on: 2012-05-12 14:23:12.0 UTC

NS1.JRSSYSTEMS.NET 64.15.152.73
NS2.JRSSYSTEMS.NET 64.15.152.73

manzdagratiano
May 29th, 2011, 04:04 PM
This is something I found:

http://jrs-s.net/about/

Apparently they also own freeBSDwiki.net!

We need some insider info on this - maybe I should email one of the Ubuntu devs asking them about this?

Thewhistlingwind
May 29th, 2011, 05:17 PM
Honestly, I think it's just maintained by some random Linux IT guy.

manzdagratiano
May 30th, 2011, 07:21 PM
Indeed that is what appears to be the case... I am emailing Jono Bacon to see what his thoughts are on the wiki matter. If that fails, I will bother other people. This business needs to be addressed, and now.

unknownPoster
May 30th, 2011, 07:35 PM
Indeed that is what appears to be the case... I am emailing Jono Bacon to see what his thoughts are on the wiki matter. If that fails, I will bother other people. This business needs to be addressed, and now.

Why?

There is nothing anyone can do about it.

Fedz
May 30th, 2011, 08:19 PM
Huh why's it matter anyone can make an Ubuntu related site.

If Ubuntu wanted something official & controllable they can create their own as a sub-domain of Ubuntu.com - which they already do :)

manzdagratiano
June 5th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Why?

There is nothing anyone can do about it.

There's always somebody who can do something about anything.

Update: No reply from Jono Bacon; am emailing Dustin Kirkland who has replied to me in the past, and who may be able to point me to the right people.

EDIT: Rather than bother Dustin with this issue, I think I found the right place where people that matter should listen:

https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-website

I opened a new bug report, which will hopefully stir things up:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/792979

manzdagratiano
June 5th, 2011, 02:16 AM
I am following this discussion on the Ubuntu Documentation Contributors mailing list:

ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com

I hope that pushing this matter there will lead to some results.

manzdagratiano
June 5th, 2011, 03:42 AM
May I request the hon'ble mods to merge this thread with my other thread?:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1762598

The purpose of creating this thread was to catch attention, and I believe it has been served. I am following the discussion regarding the wiki in the other thread.

manzdagratiano
June 5th, 2011, 03:43 AM
This website:

http://ubuntuguide.org

seems to be doing the right thing. Maybe one could use this as a template for the equivalent of the "Beginner's Guide" on the Archwiki?

EDIT: Guess I never saw this linked to from the opening page of the community documentation! But then it defeats the purpose of having an "official" install guide and this one.

manzdagratiano
June 5th, 2011, 11:57 PM
I would normally not bump a thread thus, but rather than open a new thread, I have updated the first post with regard to my present forays towards this venture. I would request the mods as well as the veterans of the forums to chime into the discussion I just started on the mailing list. If a whole lot of people push for it in a concerted effort, this matter shall see light of day!

Dustin2128
June 6th, 2011, 02:53 AM
Did anyone else think the highlander? "Ubuntu wikis. There can only be one." Yeah, seriously though arch and gentoo wiki among others are amazing. Ubuntu's is... sad for the 3rd most used desktop operating system in the world.

NightwishFan
June 6th, 2011, 03:01 AM
There can be only one, MacLeod! /troll

Thewhistlingwind
June 6th, 2011, 03:18 AM
Yeah, seriously though arch and gentoo wiki among others are amazing. Ubuntu's is... sad for the 3rd most used desktop operating system in the world.

At least I know I'm not crazy for thinking so.

manzdagratiano
June 6th, 2011, 06:26 AM
Did anyone else think the highlander? "Ubuntu wikis. There can only be one." Yeah, seriously though arch and gentoo wiki among others are amazing. Ubuntu's is... sad for the 3rd most used desktop operating system in the world.

Ah Highlander, still one of my favorite TV shows from old times (never saw the movie yet though). Indeed that's where "there can be only one" comes from, not to mention that ratpoison also adopts such a stance.

It seems from the list discussions so far that creating a new wiki is out of the question. I am lobbying for merging the "official documentation" with the "community contributed documentation", and making the resulting information hub more centrally accessible. I guess we need to start urging people to transfer their HOWTO's to the wiki - it seems like a mutually coupled feedback process between forum people and website maintainers - our doing will bolster their incentive, and their doing will bolster our motive.

Thewhistlingwind
June 6th, 2011, 06:28 AM
It I guess we need to start urging people to transfer their HOWTO's to the wiki - it seems like a mutually coupled feedback process between forum people and website maintainers - our doing will bolster their incentive, and their doing will bolster our motive.

The forum content is CC licensed.

As long as you attribute/link back, you should be good.

Just suggest some how-to's to be added, and wiki magic will ensue.

I'd jump on this ASAP, but I have more important priorities right now.

AugustinMa
June 6th, 2011, 08:57 AM
The wealth of information in the forum archives cannot be allowed to slip into the folds of posteriority!

manzdagratiano:

I would like generally to encourage you on your effort. The quote above perfectly reflect my own thinking. For the benefit of the whole Ubuntu community, I hope you achieve what you are specifically after.

I have a similar effort going on, although it is not Ubuntu specific but concerns all Linux users. See:
http://linux.overshoot.tv/
I have serious long term targets for this project. The objective is to harness the time and energy generally wasted in forums like this one and in mailing list and focus it into improving the documentation and the software itself, to benefit any Linux user, whatever the distribution.

Our objectives are very similar, and I am open to suggestions as to how we could cooperate.

Blessings,
Augustin.

manzdagratiano
June 11th, 2011, 04:04 AM
Hello everybody,

I believe the only way is to plunge in headlong myself. I have just posted a new message to the mailing list:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2011-June/015891.html

and I am going to act on it starting tonight.

I would urge as many to join in as possible in my efforts. Let the documentation be flooded with changes!



manzdagratiano:

I have a similar effort going on, although it is not Ubuntu specific but concerns all Linux users. See:
http://linux.overshoot.tv/
I have serious long term targets for this project. The objective is to harness the time and energy generally wasted in forums like this one and in mailing list and focus it into improving the documentation and the software itself, to benefit any Linux user, whatever the distribution.

Our objectives are very similar, and I am open to suggestions as to how we could cooperate.


Good Sir! Thank you for the encouragement. I would certainly like to contribute to your project as well as we go along! There is indeed a serious dearth of good GNU/Linux documentation!

Thewhistlingwind
June 11th, 2011, 04:11 AM
Hello everybody,

I believe the only way is to plunge in headlong myself. I have just posted a new message to the mailing list:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2011-June/015891.html

and I am going to act on it starting tonight.

I would urge as many to join in as possible in my efforts. Let the documentation be flooded with changes!



I still have about, a week left before I'm free for the summer.;) I'll make a point to help you then if I can.

manzdagratiano
June 11th, 2011, 06:21 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen!

I have created a new draft for the opening page of the community documentation, and placed it in the 'Draft' page as asked in the editing options. Please find it here:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation/PageDiscussion/Draft

Here is a changelog of what I did:

1) Removed "See Also" from top and moved them to the bottom, where there is a similar section (more appropriate).

2) Moved "Finding your way" signpost from top to bottom, as well as the browsing by category section, since it better serves its purpose akin to the index pages of a book.

The reason I did the above two is because I feel that when a newbie goes to the Wiki, he should be greeted first by the "Getting Started" section. Asking the user to diverge to different pages straightaway does not seem very appealing to me.

3) Added the new Ubuntu logo - mostly for 'catchiness' value. I would like this logo to be centered, but the "position=middle" command with the attachment does not help. Maybe I have to put it in a table environment as in LaTeX?

4) Getting Started with Ubuntu (changed to "Getting Started!"):

5) Added the words "as you go along" to the referring line to the Glossary, to not give the impression that the newbie should master the glossary before proceeding any further. A few more changes to that sentence (again, this and all the changes I shall make shall be from thinking from the perspective of what the newbie would like to hear. I think that is a difficult art to master and I am still learning that from my experiences with students in the classroom).

6) I think the first section somebody should see is "Installation Guide", because that is where they shall be starting from. I merged the "Switching form another OS" section with this section, since it is redundant having two of those.

7) The Terminal... Added some lines explaining this might be a new idea especially of switching from another distro. Rewrote the sentence that follows.

8> Getting to Know... Minor changes

9) Software: Removed the line about "the hardware side of networking" - this section is immediately above and is therefore redundant, since the reader has to have seen it before coming here.

Please give me feedback/suggestions? I have tried to make the tone warmer and friendlier. I am a believer of the "Well Begun... Half Done!" philosophy.

I have submitted changes to the mailing list:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2011-June/015894.html

and will await approval. If these or even part of the changes are approved, I can start moving onto the linking pages. I have asked for the "Official Ubuntu Documentation" to be merged with this page as an Introduction or "Official Install Guide", with the pages linking from there still made immutable. This should be the logical thing to do.

I must now away myself to the endeavor that is called "life" :) - even though it is past midnight!

manzdagratiano
June 11th, 2011, 06:23 AM
I still have about, a week left before I'm free for the summer.;) I'll make a point to help you then if I can.

I await your endeavors!

handy
June 11th, 2011, 09:15 AM
@manzdagratiano: I think the page is a big improvement. As you say, it is simpler to navigate & the tone you used is warm, friendly & welcoming.

Well done.

grahammechanical
June 11th, 2011, 12:32 PM
I would like to add my vote for the proposition. Firefox on my machine has bookmark to Ubuntu Wiki (community-edited website) but when I go to it I see this.


The purpose of this wiki is for information on contributing to Ubuntu and the coordination of teams working on Ubuntu.This tells me that the Ubuntu wiki is not the place to look for information on how to use Ubuntu. I cannot use it as a source of information on how to fix problems. Nor can I add to the wiki unless I am part of a development team. It does not seem like a wiki at all. It is just a web page acting as a portal to other information.

So, although I have not read all the posts in this thread and may be repeating what others have already said, I agree with the need for a proper Ubuntu Wiki that functions as a wiki should.

Regards.

@manzdagratiano

I have just looked over your draft page. It is good.

May I make a point that is slightly off topic? Why does the installation of Ubuntu place a bookmark in Firefox giving a link to the Ubuntu Wiki and not to the Ubuntu documentation? What would help a new user better? An invitation to get involved in development or comprehensive documentation? Let the link to the options of getting involved in development be part of the documentation (official or community) and let the bookmark in Firefox be to the community/official documentation.

manzdagratiano
June 11th, 2011, 06:03 PM
@manzdagratiano: I think the page is a big improvement. As you say, it is simpler to navigate & the tone you used is warm, friendly & welcoming.

Well done.

Thank you Good Sir! Your encouragement serves to fuel what has already been started!


I would like to add my vote for the proposition. Firefox on my machine has bookmark to Ubuntu Wiki (community-edited website) but when I go to it I see this.

This tells me that the Ubuntu wiki is not the place to look for information on how to use Ubuntu. I cannot use it as a source of information on how to fix problems. Nor can I add to the wiki unless I am part of a development team. It does not seem like a wiki at all. It is just a web page acting as a portal to other information.

So, although I have not read all the posts in this thread and may be repeating what others have already said, I agree with the need for a proper Ubuntu Wiki that functions as a wiki should.

Regards.

@manzdagratiano

I have just looked over your draft page. It is good.

May I make a point that is slightly off topic? Why does the installation of Ubuntu place a bookmark in Firefox giving a link to the Ubuntu Wiki and not to the Ubuntu documentation? What would help a new user better? An invitation to get involved in development or comprehensive documentation? Let the link to the options of getting involved in development be part of the documentation (official or community) and let the bookmark in Firefox be to the community/official documentation.

Indeed, the wiki people had stated the following when I raised a similar concern:


Do you realise the difference between help.u.c and wiki.u.c? The "wiki" you are referring to isn't actually meant to be a document of technical support, it's more for team collaboration than technical support. It's actually discouraged as a place to store technical information as that is not the goal of the Ubuntu wiki.


taken from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2011-June/015870.html.

While this may be true, it does contradict the norms and expectations people hold regarding a wiki. While the team does not want to change the Ubuntu wiki from what it currently is, this change that you see on the website is actually a welcome one, and very recent (two days ago) - it is an effort to direct traffic in the right direction, by telling them that they need to go to the "help" documentation, which holds technical information, rather than the "wiki" documentation, which is more of official documentation about Ubuntu hierarchy.

manzdagratiano
June 13th, 2011, 03:24 AM
No replies from the mailing list yet in two days. If I receive none by tomorrow night, I will go ahead and commit the changes :) Either they won't care, in which case all shall be good, or than will tick people of, in which case people will know I was not making light of the situation; either way, my purpose - for a start - shall have been achieved!

castrojo
June 13th, 2011, 03:31 AM
May I make a point that is slightly off topic? Why does the installation of Ubuntu place a bookmark in Firefox giving a link to the Ubuntu Wiki and not to the Ubuntu documentation? What would help a new user better? An invitation to get involved in development or comprehensive documentation? Let the link to the options of getting involved in development be part of the documentation (official or community) and let the bookmark in Firefox be to the community/official documentation.

Please file a bug on this, it should probably just point to the help site.

manzdagratiano
June 13th, 2011, 05:43 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen! Having received some positive response from Herr castrojo above, I have committed the changes to the main page:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation

It is ON!

While the new page is pondered upon by the venerated members of the documentation team, I will move on to the linking pages, and post the annals of my ventures here. I just have to make sure I do not get so addicted here as to diverge from my thesis work!

SecretCode
June 13th, 2011, 05:12 PM
Congratulations. It looks great ... a great start, that is :)

One thing strikes me, which should have struck me before: the "Ubuntu Team Wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/)" positions itself as the wiki for the Ubuntu community of developers. It does have a prominent notice that user help can be found at Official Help Documentation (https://help.ubuntu.com/) or Community Support (http://www.ubuntu.com/support/CommunitySupport). [One thing still to do is to add a link to the new user-wiki i.e. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation.]

Does it matter that there is a community of Ubuntu developers distinct from a community of Ubuntu users? Which is more prominent? Idle thoughts ... of course both are important ...

Bart_D
June 13th, 2011, 09:34 PM
...May I make a point that is slightly off topic? Why does the installation of Ubuntu place a bookmark in Firefox giving a link to the Ubuntu Wiki and not to the Ubuntu documentation? What would help a new user better? An invitation to get involved in development or comprehensive documentation? Let the link to the options of getting involved in development be part of the documentation (official or community) and let the bookmark in Firefox be to the community/official documentation.

Well said, good sir. Well said! I agree 100%.

With all due respect, the Ubuntu documentation is horrible. What documentation is available online is, for the most part, highly unstructured and, in some cases, outdated.

I know that I have said, many times, that I HATE Arch Linux, but their documentation is extremely useful and highly structured....Ubuntu can learn a lot from the Arch Linux wiki page.

manzdagratiano
June 14th, 2011, 03:20 PM
And that same level of structure and organization is what we shall soon achieve for Ubuntu! We as a community have to push forward to make it happen... and it is happening.

mips
June 14th, 2011, 04:12 PM
I know that I have said, many times, that I HATE Arch Linux, but their documentation is extremely useful and highly structured....Ubuntu can learn a lot from the Arch Linux wiki page.

Was that part really required as you could have just focussed on the positives.

swoll1980
June 14th, 2011, 08:07 PM
They should have a tournament like in Mortal Kombat. The winner gets to have the one true Ubuntu wiki. On a side note, I'm starting to think that the KDE devs had a hand in that whole Mortal Kombat thing.

timZZ
June 14th, 2011, 09:02 PM
I do not know ... I really like the large viral growth of people writing wiki's for attention. (this is sarcasm)

I have been spreading the message of people helping the areas that have the traffic but need the help AKA along the lines of your message.

I hope you managed to succeed.

manzdagratiano
June 16th, 2011, 07:18 PM
Hi all,

Here is my changelog for the Installation section of the help pages. I think it was structured more like an index page of a book. I have tried to convert it to a 'Chapter' instead; as before the goal is {terse,scary} ->{warm,n00b-friendly}. I have already committed the changes here:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation

1) Introduction

2) No need to refer to the Graphical Installer twice. Standard is what most would want anyway, so they can proceed there right after looking at the requirements

3) Requirements: A typical user will not want to pour over pages and pages of hardware requirement lists, so I sought to provide a brief overview from this page itself.

4) Alternate Install - explained a little why someone would want to go for the Alternate Install

5) Installation without a CD - made the links "human readable" and elaborated on them.

I am a little pressed for time, so the changes I would like to make to this page are not yet complete. I shall return to them later.

handy
June 17th, 2011, 03:01 AM
@manzdagratiano: It looks great. :)

Chronon
June 17th, 2011, 04:59 AM
Thanks for leading the charge on this. Your efforts are appreciated.

It seems there are plenty of updates to make. I see a lot of pages without mention of Natty (even Maverick).

manzdagratiano
June 17th, 2011, 05:42 AM
I have been spreading the message of people helping the areas that have the traffic but need the help AKA along the lines of your message.

I hope you managed to succeed.


@manzdagratiano: It looks great. :)


Thanks for leading the charge on this. Your efforts are appreciated.

It seems there are plenty of updates to make. I see a lot of pages without mention of Natty (even Maverick).

Thank you all Gentlemen! I shall indeed keep pushing forth... one page at a time. If you pick out enough grains of sand, even deserts run dry (or some hashed metaphor along those lines - you get the idea :D)!

Bart_D
June 17th, 2011, 09:19 PM
Was that part really required as you could have just focussed on the positives.

The way I see it, Arch Linux has NO positives. Listen, everybody is different. That is just my opinion. That's all.

You like it, you use it.....for you, it's the greatest thing in the world....that's fine.

For me, Arch Linux sickens me to my very core!

As I said, the only thing that I like about them is their documentation*. Other that than, nothing else about Arch Linux appeals to me.

* I'd like to reiterate that Ubuntu could learn a thing or 2 about their documentation from Arch Linux.....which is, basiocallym, the topic of this thread.

Chronon
June 17th, 2011, 09:49 PM
Thank you all Gentlemen! I shall indeed keep pushing forth... one page at a time. If you pick out enough grains of sand, even deserts run dry (or some hashed metaphor along those lines - you get the idea :D)!

I have been making some modest changes, like expanding on some of the pages linked under PortableDevices.

manzdagratiano
June 30th, 2011, 08:16 PM
Greetings Ladies and Gentlemen! I have been a little tied up with some unexpected changes in my research work, which I expect to be resolved shortly... I am down but not out!!!


I have been making some modest changes, like expanding on some of the pages linked under PortableDevices.

Thank you very very much! Any and all changes are appreciated... each step is but a vital part!!!

ScionicSpectre
June 30th, 2011, 09:12 PM
We should just copy and paste the Arch Wiki over and make small changes (ie. cutting out the irrelevant sections due to Ubuntu's lack of package availability).

But seriously now, this is one thing that I've been seriously upset with among a lot of big open source projects- documentation. I've found tons of spelling errors in obvious places throughout the Ubuntu and openSUSE wikis, for example. Also, the Ubuntu wiki is definitely out of date in a lot of places. It needs a lot of love, which I may be able to contribute somewhere down the line, but not at the moment.

I just wish people would proofread more often in this community. =_=;

Chronon
July 1st, 2011, 05:29 AM
Well, the neglect is partly the fault of each of us who visits a page without improving what we can. Fixing a spelling or grammar mistake only takes a couple of minutes and if enough people get in the habit then a wiki can work extremely well.

grahammechanical
July 1st, 2011, 12:31 PM
I just wish people would proofread more often in this communityIs this not why a wiki needs to be a proper wiki? So, people can proof read and make changes without needing to become officially involved in the project.

As ScionicSpectre says


I may be able to contribute somewhere down the line, but not at the moment.

Some of us may not be in a position for the responsibilities of becoming part of an official team. Some of us may lack the confidence to push ourselves forward. But we could help to move a grain of sand or two.

I do not complain about the poor quality of documentation (if it is poor quality) because I know that the answer is: "Don't just sit there. Get involved."

Regards.

manzdagratiano
July 5th, 2011, 09:03 AM
I had mentioned earlier in the thread that I had emailed Jono Bacon about the stuff, but I never got a reply: well, he replied to the mailing list regarding somewhat similar issues, so I shall take that as a positive :). I see that the biggies are finally trying to push for more unification of the help pages with the main Ubuntu homepage - basically the ideal situation would be to have it linked directly to the homepage instead of diverting the user to ten different channels to choose from. If that happens, we are already good in the game. Our own bodhi.zazen also got involved in the discussion!


We should just copy and paste the Arch Wiki over and make small changes


That is actually not a bad idea at all... I have myself been editing various parts of the Arch wiki, since it is a beautiful thing and a simple flaw there seems to stand out with greater intensity :P. The ultimate goal is to make the Ubuntu wiki as good, if not better, as the Arch wiki. The goals are slightly different though - Arch is more of an enthusiast's fantasy, while Ubuntu should be usable by anybody's Grandma!

manzdagratiano
July 16th, 2011, 04:44 PM
Minor update.... I rewrote the section about using the terminal in the main page and compared the knowledge of commands to sorcery! (which it is). Linux should seem catchy to the new user!

manzdagratiano
August 4th, 2011, 05:45 AM
Greetings Meine Damen und Herren!

I have been a little tied up - with research, as is well beknownst to many of you, most days are bad, and some of them are really bad :)

In response to ideas brought up by Chris (clissold345), I rewrote the section on the terminal on the main page of the community documentation. His main arguments were: if Mac or Windows users switch to ubuntu the vast majority of them will only use the command line when they have to, while Linux users will almost certainly already be familiar with the command line, and they hardly need to be warned about it. I concede that it would indeed be best, to tell new users that GNU/Linux is not the scary beast it used to be, and one may not spend their lives on the command line, but that most everyday tasks may be performed using alternate GUI tools, and that despite that, the terminal is a powerful tool which enhances the user's power over his system.

I acknowledge that the language I have employed is obviously not the "documentation type" - instead, it aims to be more like a dialogue with the new user, trying to walk them through this new idea, as I envisage the entire wiki to become. I have left the comparison of the knowledge of terminal commands with spells in sorcery, for I think it really drives the point home, and I have made a remark regarding how Ubuntu has served to change the image GNU/Linux used to have, thanks to Mark (albeit in a somewhat cheesy fashion). I have also refrained (with due apologies to RMS) from the excessive use of the term "GNU/Linux" - since I believe that is not how the common newbie recognizes us. However, I have thrown in that term in the mix, so that the new user may also start picking it up.

I would, as always like your feedback on the matter.

Also, the issue about the branding used by the Ubuntu help pages has finally been brought to light. It appears that the documentation pages are built up through a bazaar toolchain by a somewhat nontrivial process, as elucidated in the following comment to Bug #58905:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/589057/comments/8

Would there be someone willing to take a shot at this? This does not sound too hard to do. Even if one can come up with a new logo for the help pages as suggested (I am baffled about trivial matters - for instance, should it be white on a transparent background, so that it may be placed anywhere, etc?), it would be a great start, and I would be willing to take it from there (building documentation through the toolchain, and uploading it in the relevant place).

manzdagratiano
October 11th, 2011, 12:58 AM
Greetings everybody! I don't know who's following this yet, but it is a much more tedious process than I envisaged it would be. At the moment, I am tied up not with improving the documentation content to n00b-friendly, but an even more important issue - which is that of transitioning the documentation from the old theme to the new theme, which is used by the wiki too. I am trying to build the new pages using the new theme, but the veterans seem to be busy with the new Oneiric release and it hasn't gotten much anywhere - hopefully, after the much-awaited release, whose benefits I am already reaping, I shall be able to fix my first `bug'!

earthpigg
October 11th, 2011, 01:01 AM
+1 to the first person that responded to your thread over there.

"May I also comment that this issue is potentially directly related to Bug #1 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1)"

michaelcarey95
October 11th, 2011, 01:15 AM
I never used either . . . I just came straight to the forums. I did a lot of lurking of course, but I've pretty much figured things out. ;)

People on the forums know their "stuff".

dniMretsaM
October 11th, 2011, 01:59 AM
I didn't really feel like reading the entire thread, so could you maybe post a summery of the progress you have made so far? And what you really want to get done (high-priority stuff). I'd definitely be willing to help out if I have the skill/knowledge to do so.


+1 to the first person that responded to your thread over there.

"May I also comment that this issue is potentially directly related to Bug #1 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1)"

I'm pretty sure that was him.

manzdagratiano
October 11th, 2011, 04:36 AM
Hehe... Progress has been minuscule compared to what lies ahead, but that is a constant process I believe. What I have done myself so far:
1) Rewrote most of the first half of the opening page of the community documentation to make it n00b friendly:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation
Added a large section on what the terminal is and how to use it in needs of distress (esp. when asking for help on the forum) - but that it's knowledge is not a prerequisite for Ubuntu.
2) Rewrote a large segment of the installation page.

Minor other fixes so far. The ultimate aim is to produce something at least as good as the Arch wiki, which is the quintessential model everyone would agree on right now. This may even be superseded - there were talks on the mailing list about moving to SuMo (Jono Bacon himself suggested this), which is the wiki style that Mozilla uses - if that happens, things would be excellent.

I have been pushing, along with a few friends here, most notably Thewhistlingwind, to make the Community Documentation a more integral part of the Ubuntu main site - currently it is hard to get to if you don't know it exists. I am also trying to urge the veterans on the forums here to transfer the bulk of the wealth of their knowledge to the wiki.

And currently, I am trying to transition the documentation theme to the new style that matches the rest of the Ubuntu website. This is help up until Oneiric is released in a couple of days, then some mentoring by mdke and others should allow me to finish the task - I know nothing about packaging, even though I code everyday as the language for my work!

Any bit of help is appreciated... More people need to get involved with the wiki, so that most n00bs who venture to the forums asking for help on the same old topics know that there is a place they can go to first - like with the Arch wiki.

Thewhistlingwind
October 11th, 2011, 04:39 AM
One thing I never got around to doing (But desperately needs to happen.) is hyperlinking a bunch of the terms used in various articles. By hyperlinking the wiki articles together, it turns it into a wiki, instead of a badly indexed collection of pages.

I think this process would be self sustaining after everything's linked together, but it requires that initial time investment to make it happen.

One problem I ran into was linking to terms in the glossary. (Because no one is going to read that thing unless prompted.) I originally tried the wiki-style notation of #your_term_here but it didn't work, I suggest this has something to do with a function of HTML I'm not aware of. (As I don't really know HTML at all.) But just getting everything wired up would be a huge start.