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Fedz
May 5th, 2011, 09:36 PM
@TechZader (http://Twitter.com/TechZader) (Chris Luzader):
Linus on Linux, 20 Years In http://bit.ly/ig85ry (via Slashdot)

Direct link: HERE (http://linuxfr.org/nodes/85904/comments/1230981).

"Along with the 20th anniversary of the release of the first Linux kernel, Linuxfr — a French-language Linux website — published an interview with Linus Torvalds. [Interview in English.]
The creator of Linux answers questions about Linux kernel licensing, his contributions to the kernel development model and Linux in 2031."

Interesting reading :)

TeoBigusGeekus
May 5th, 2011, 09:48 PM
So the first and the very negative answer is that I absolutely despise the people who try to push the GPL as being about "ethics".
I think that's absolute ********. Why? Because ethics are to me something private. Whenever you use it as an argument for why somebody_else should do something, you're no longer being ethical, you're just being a sanctimonious ****-head.
For whom the bell tolls?

K_45
May 5th, 2011, 10:13 PM
"Linux competes with itself, not Windows" That sounds about right.

Spice Weasel
May 5th, 2011, 10:17 PM
Linus is... not a very nice person. I'll leave it at that.

K_45
May 5th, 2011, 10:25 PM
Linus is... not a very nice person. I'll leave it at that.

How so?

Telengard C64
May 5th, 2011, 10:29 PM
How so?

Because he doesn't understand that ethics and morality are not exactly the same thing.

K_45
May 5th, 2011, 10:34 PM
Because he doesn't understand that ethics and morality are not exactly the same thing.

They are the same, ethics leads to moral decisions; it is the foundation of morality.

Spice Weasel
May 5th, 2011, 10:45 PM
How so?

He regularly insults and flames anyone that disagrees with him rather than just accepting their differences or at least providing a coherent argument.

K_45
May 5th, 2011, 10:51 PM
He regularly insults and flames anyone that disagrees with him rather than just accepting their differences or at least providing a coherent argument.

That interview was coherent and I didn't see any insults. . .

Spice Weasel
May 5th, 2011, 11:06 PM
That interview was coherent and I didn't see any insults. . .


you're just being a sanctimonious ****-head.


Linus Torvalds : Heh. rwt is where I go to flame people and argue about computer architecture. I like people who argue back, and I also like how it's not Linux people, or even about Linux. So I can spout my opinions and see what arguments I can get to happen.


I think the OpenBSD crowd is a bunch of masturbating monkeys, in that they make such a big deal about concentrating on security to the point where they pretty much admit that nothing else matters to them.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate

K_45
May 5th, 2011, 11:12 PM
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate

That's opinion, not insults.

sydbat
May 5th, 2011, 11:13 PM
He regularly insults and flames anyone that disagrees with him rather than just accepting their differences or at least providing a coherent argument.Hmmm...who does that sound exactly like...

Oh I know...

http://www.fashion-geektim.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/richard-stallman.jpg

TeoBigusGeekus
May 5th, 2011, 11:23 PM
I hope youbuntu (glossywhite) is not online...

aG93IGRvIGkgdWJ1bnR1Pw==
May 5th, 2011, 11:27 PM
Hmmm...who does that sound exactly like...

Oh I know...

http://www.fashion-geektim.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/richard-stallman.jpg

IT INSULTS THE GNU/LEADER! IT MUST PERISH! :popcorn:

Seriously, I admit I find it disturbing that some of the most important and influential people in the Free Software world - this goes for both Stallman and Linus - are incapable of having a rational debate on the GNU philosophy and ideology without it turning into a flame fest.

We should just lock the GNU and OSI people together in a big room with plenty of stale pizza and not let them out until they come up with a joint declaration of software freedom everyone can get behind without constantly accusing each other of being too idealist or pragmatic.

Spice Weasel
May 5th, 2011, 11:38 PM
IT INSULTS THE GNU/LEADER! IT MUST PERISH! :popcorn:

Seriously, I admit I find it disturbing that some of the most important and influential people in the Free Software world - this goes for both Stallman and Linus - are incapable of having a rational debate on the GNU philosophy and ideology without it turning into a flame fest.

We should just lock the GNU and OSI people together in a big room with plenty of stale pizza and not let them out until they come up with a joint declaration of software freedom everyone can get behind without constantly accusing each other of being too idealist or pragmatic.

Excellent idea.

el_koraco
May 5th, 2011, 11:41 PM
especially the stale pizza bit.

Legendary_Bibo
May 6th, 2011, 12:52 AM
I <3 Linus

The man knows of what he speaks to be true.

fuduntu
May 6th, 2011, 12:53 AM
Linus is... not a very nice person. I'll leave it at that.

I've heard that Hurd is pretty usable these days. teehee

Telengard C64
May 6th, 2011, 01:14 AM
They are the same, ethics leads to moral decisions; it is the foundation of morality.

Many businesses are very ethical, but not at all moral. The two concepts may intersect, but they are not the same.

I can follow all the rules on this forum, but hate people who disagree with me. Does my hatred make me immoral or unethical?

handy
May 6th, 2011, 03:08 AM
I've heard that Hurd is pretty usable these days. teehee

http://www.archhurd.org/

:)

jerenept
May 6th, 2011, 03:34 AM
http://www.archhurd.org/

:)

ArchHurd is impossible for me to install.
Even freaking Gentoo was less complex.

Not Usable for me.

false truths
May 6th, 2011, 03:47 AM
I find Linus' attitude to be somewhat the opposite of those who back him. Which bothers me because he can be a major jerk, but at the same time it amuses me, because everybody is focused on what happens in kernelspace, and minimising the use of userspace, but Linus is more interested in interfaces and hopes to see more exciting things happen with UIs over the next 20 years.

handy
May 6th, 2011, 03:57 AM
ArchHurd is impossible for me to install.
Even freaking Gentoo was less complex.

Not Usable for me.

It is still a work in progress.
__________

I enjoyed reading the interview. To my mind, Linus made many valid points.

Antarctica32
May 6th, 2011, 04:08 AM
I've heard that Hurd is pretty usable these days. teehee

what are we going to do? take Linux out of GNU after all these years? For Christ's sake, we even call it Linux now. LOL That would be so funny if after all this time we just switch to the Hurd. I wonder what linus and stallman would do? linus would probably kill himself and stallman would act as if it was 1987 before linux was invented.

NightwishFan
May 6th, 2011, 04:13 AM
That is a pretty big whatif. :) If it somehow came to pass I do not see Linus going bad from it. I am sure he will be just fine.

Antarctica32
May 6th, 2011, 04:25 AM
That is a pretty big whatif. :) If it somehow came to pass I do not see Linus going bad from it. I am sure he will be just fine.

Are you kidding me?!? I think he would be incredibly upset! this is his life, I mean think about how far the linux kernel has come. His own idea is in everything from crappy 90's 8088s to supercomputers to little android smartphones to sleek Asus eeePCs and everything in between. And to have that taken away just like that. I think it would kinda suck.

Spice Weasel
May 6th, 2011, 11:46 AM
I've heard that Hurd is pretty usable these days. teehee

I love how when I point out that Linus is a bit of a jerk everyone assumes I'm one of these Stallman-worshipper types.

el_koraco
May 6th, 2011, 11:58 AM
that Linus is a bit of a jerk

He seems to me to be one of those blunt types who cuts in with flaming comments some times, but wouldn't mind if he got the same kind of retort thrown back at him. Not necessarily very nice, but not necessarily the jerky kind.

jhonan
May 6th, 2011, 12:08 PM
He's just jealous cause they made a film about Mark Zuckerberg instead of him.

velle frak
May 6th, 2011, 12:08 PM
I didn't know monkeys masturbate. Interesting thread :wink: .

jhonan
May 6th, 2011, 12:26 PM
I didn't know monkeys masturbate. Interesting thread :wink: .
Have you ever wondered why Zoos don't have Bonobos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo) on display?

fuduntu
May 6th, 2011, 01:25 PM
what are we going to do? take Linux out of GNU after all these years? For Christ's sake, we even call it Linux now. LOL That would be so funny if after all this time we just switch to the Hurd. I wonder what linus and stallman would do? linus would probably kill himself and stallman would act as if it was 1987 before linux was invented.

I wasn't serious. ;) I have great respect for Linus, and share his opinion on software and ethics.

fuduntu
May 6th, 2011, 01:27 PM
I love how when I point out that Linus is a bit of a jerk everyone assumes I'm one of these Stallman-worshipper types.

I assumed you were the same Spice Weasel I have exchanged comments with on Reddit. My apologies if you aren't. Either way, I wasn't serious. ;)

Spice Weasel
May 6th, 2011, 01:55 PM
I assumed you were the same Spice Weasel I have exchanged comments with on Reddit. My apologies if you aren't. Either way, I wasn't serious. ;)

No worries. That's not me, I've had the name for longer and only use it here. He should have done a search to see if anyone else used it as a screen name. :mad:

fuduntu
May 6th, 2011, 03:43 PM
No worries. That's not me, I've had the name for longer and only use it here. He should have done a search to see if anyone else used it as a screen name. :mad:

:) Good to know. The guy over on reddit with your name is a born again RMS.

Legendary_Bibo
May 6th, 2011, 04:09 PM
ArchHurd is impossible for me to install.
Even freaking Gentoo was less complex.

Not Usable for me.


After much discussion, we, the Arch Hurd developers, feel that, due to the success of Arch Hurd, a remix focussed on netbook users is in the best interests of our community. We reviewed the typical usage of netbooks today and feel that despite our lack of wireless, sound and SATA (amongst other things) the superior design of the Hurd is worth the small hindrance that some of our users may experience.

Taken from that link. LOL.

The HURD is superior, but it's far less developed than Linux...okay. That's some good thinking right there old chaps.

sydbat
May 6th, 2011, 04:34 PM
They are the same, ethics leads to moral decisions; it is the foundation of morality.


Many businesses are very ethical, but not at all moral.As stated by K_45, ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics) lead to moral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality) decisions. What I believe you have misinterpreted is, all ethics are the same, therefore all moral decisions are the same. This is simply not true.

As previously pointed out, ethics and morals are personal. For example, if my ethics/ morals tell me that X is OK, then in my own mind, I have done nothing wrong. Your ethics/ morals may tell you the exact opposite, which makes you believe that I have done something wrong. In actuality, we both may be right. Isn't philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) great?

Agreed upon societal mores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mores) is an entirely different beast, and closer to what you are confusing with ethics/ morals.

So, businesses may be ethical, but not in the manner you think they are. They follow their own set of ethical beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_ethics) which lead to moral decisions based upon those ethics. They have virtually nothing to do with your ethics, unless you end up believing the same things.

I hope that makes a modicum of sense.

Telengard C64
May 6th, 2011, 05:20 PM
So, businesses may be ethical, but not in the manner you think they are. They follow their own set of ethical beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_ethics) which lead to moral decisions based upon those ethics. They have virtually nothing to do with your ethics, unless you end up believing the same things.

You are so wrong. I hate you.
:rolleyes: (jk)

MBybee
May 6th, 2011, 05:23 PM
IT INSULTS THE GNU/LEADER! IT MUST PERISH! :popcorn:

Seriously, I admit I find it disturbing that some of the most important and influential people in the Free Software world - this goes for both Stallman and Linus - are incapable of having a rational debate on the GNU philosophy and ideology without it turning into a flame fest.

We should just lock the GNU and OSI people together in a big room with plenty of stale pizza and not let them out until they come up with a joint declaration of software freedom everyone can get behind without constantly accusing each other of being too idealist or pragmatic.

Isn't this how you get Ubuntu?

Seriously though - being a BSD person since way back, I like BSD's philosophy a LOT more than Stallman's. I think the GPL is not freedom. The BSD short license (without the Berkeley paragraph) is pretty much the only reason any of us have things like TCP/IP, web browsers, or even disk drivers.

forrestcupp
May 6th, 2011, 07:50 PM
Linus is... not a very nice person. I'll leave it at that.

Linus is a jerk, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. He's just a jerk about it. His personality may be one reason for the quality of his kernel, too.

keithpeter
May 6th, 2011, 08:14 PM
Hello All

Thanks for the link, I found the interview thought provoking but for different reasons to authors of most of the replies.


"[...] your desktop is what you see every day, and you get attached to it. The attachment might be some kind of "stockholm syndrome" [...] but even then it becomes a kind of dependency where you get used to it and rely on it rather more intimately than you ever end up relying on the company mainframe."

This quote for me connects with Nietzsche's experience of the mechanical typewriter: "our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts."; and some of the tool-analysis of Heidegger, but in a way that Heidegger would have rejected.

What interests me about Ubuntu is the way users, with a little knowledge, can sculpt/define their own interface. Does anyone know of any systematic research on the 'tweaks' that gnu/linux or BSD users produce to smooth things? Perhaps linked to learning styles research?

clanky
May 6th, 2011, 08:41 PM
I love the fact that a huge cult of zealots has been built around something, the creator of which thinks that all the followers are just a bunch of idiots.

If only Linus would just toe the party line then the FSF would venerate him as the prophet who paved the way for the coming of the messiah rather than their present position of "we hate you because you don't love teh freedumz, but we are going to base our whole religion around your kernel because we don't have the ability to produce our own"

Legendary_Bibo
May 6th, 2011, 09:01 PM
I love the fact that a huge cult of zealots has been built around something, the creator of which thinks that all the followers are just a bunch of idiots.

If only Linus would just toe the party line then the FSF would venerate him as the prophet who paved the way for the coming of the messiah rather than their present position of "we hate you because you don't love teh freedumz, but we are going to base our whole religion around your kernel because we don't have the ability to produce our own"

It's RMS's fault for the zealots, and he's the one trying to shove the GPL down everyone's throat.

forrestcupp
May 6th, 2011, 09:20 PM
If only Linus would just toe the party line then the FSF would venerate him as the prophet who paved the way for the coming of the messiah rather than their present position of "we hate you because you don't love teh freedumz, but we are going to base our whole religion around your kernel because we don't have the ability to produce our own"

Then things wouldn't be as interesting and entertaining. :)

NightwishFan
May 6th, 2011, 10:02 PM
I was seen Linus be a jerk on the mailing lists but he seems like a nice enough guy otherwise. Plus it makes for good quotes. :)

sydbat
May 6th, 2011, 11:40 PM
You are so wrong. I hate you.
:rolleyes: (jk):razz:

MBybee
May 7th, 2011, 01:13 AM
I was seen Linus be a jerk on the mailing lists but he seems like a nice enough guy otherwise. Plus it makes for good quotes. :)

I think he's nice enough in person, from what I hear. Emails always get carried away, as do threads. People say things in print they'd never *say*, which is kind of funny, actually.

forrestcupp
May 7th, 2011, 01:56 PM
I think he's nice enough in person, from what I hear. Emails always get carried away, as do threads. People say things in print they'd never *say*, which is kind of funny, actually.

You're right, to an extent. If he said all of those things on here, he would be banned. Can you imagine Linus Torvalds being banned from Ubuntu Forums? :)

TeoBigusGeekus
May 7th, 2011, 02:03 PM
You're right, to an extent. If he said all of those things on here, he would be banned. Can you imagine Linus Torvalds being banned from Ubuntu Forums? :)

I know what you mean (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c129)...

I like him though; he's the archetypal troll...

NCLI
May 7th, 2011, 02:20 PM
Linus is... not a very nice person. I'll leave it at that.
I wouldn't say that, I think he's just the kind of person who says what he thinks, and doesn't necessarily care what others think about it.

MBybee
May 9th, 2011, 04:40 PM
I know what you mean (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c129)...

I like him though; he's the archetypal troll...

I like how people point out in the thread there that Ubuntu makes it easy to install Flash, while Fedora makes it a pain :)

This mirrors my experiences with Fedora, so I sympathize.

Spice Weasel
May 9th, 2011, 05:10 PM
I like how people point out in the thread there that Ubuntu makes it easy to install Flash, while Fedora makes it a pain :)

This mirrors my experiences with Fedora, so I sympathize.

What do you mean 'makes it a pain'? Going to the Flash Player website, clicking download (RPM) then running the installer is a pain? That's exactly how it is done on Windows.

hhh
May 9th, 2011, 08:12 PM
I love how when I point out that Linus is a bit of a jerk everyone assumes I'm one of these Stallman-worshipper types.
They shouldn't assume, for sure. Linus even admits in that interview he's a jerk sometimes...
I'm a rather harsh and pragmatic person.

The ethics question isn't all that interesting to me. He's making a distinction between professional ethics (I switched to the GPL because it helped get more people to try the Linux kernel) and personal ethics (You should use the GPL because I think it's The Right Thing To Do). He's simplifying. I don't think he'd argue that, for example, factories should not be allowed to dump anything into the environment because we all share the environment.

The most interesting thing to me was his thoughts on the desktop and smartphones...
It's also that most people really really don't want to change their environment, and if they do switch, they want help and support.

I think he's right. This is why I think Unity is creating such controversy, it's a pretty radical change and there's no real support system in place yet...unless you pay for it.


Many technical improvements really do seem to be about more "organic" developments, and very few are fully designed ahead of time. In fact, I think most interesting technical problems are too complicated to "design" for - the way you get to a solution is very much through incremental improvements and trial and error.
Are you listening, SABDFL?

MBybee
May 9th, 2011, 09:49 PM
What do you mean 'makes it a pain'? Going to the Flash Player website, clicking download (RPM) then running the installer is a pain? That's exactly how it is done on Windows.

That thread was referring to 64-bit Flash, as am I. This is not a simple click/installer process.
As you can see here (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flash#On_64-bit_Fedora)

Yet on Ubuntu, you don't have to deal with any of that. That's my point.

Also, using Windows as your gold standard of usability might raise some eyebrows ;)

forrestcupp
May 9th, 2011, 11:18 PM
What do you mean 'makes it a pain'? Going to the Flash Player website, clicking download (RPM) then running the installer is a pain? That's exactly how it is done on Windows.

What? That's too complicated. You should be able to just open the package manager and let it download, install, and set it up for you. ;)

MBybee
May 9th, 2011, 11:40 PM
What? That's too complicated. You should be able to just open the package manager and let it download, install, and set it up for you. ;)

One button, and it's pushed at the factory :D

earthpigg
May 10th, 2011, 04:00 AM
He regularly insults and flames anyone that disagrees with him rather than just accepting their differences or at least providing a coherent argument.

eh, so he's got a bit of troll in him. who doesn't?

at least he owns up to it.

PhillyPhil
May 10th, 2011, 04:13 AM
you're just being a sanctimonious ****-head. (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate)

Er, he was calling people who try to force their opinions/values on others, this name. ie. expressing his dislike for the thing you're accussing him of.

BTW, don't quote partial sentences. It completely removes the context.

earthpigg
May 10th, 2011, 04:59 AM
I know what you mean (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c129)...

I like him though; he's the archetypal troll...

I dunno, having skimmed the bug report comments: he seems to have just cause to be upset and may not be trolling.

Someone patched software.

That update broke Flash 64-bit, and had only theoretical benefits.

After hailing those theoretical benefits and essentially blaming Adobe for an update in Fedora breaking Flash for Fedora 64 users, Linus responded by releasing a workaround for advanced users and asking...


And in the end, the big question is simple:

Are you seriously going to do a Fedora-14 release with a known non-working flash player?

50 comments later, most of them revolving around workarounds and perhaps it would be better to fix Fedora for non-advanced Fedora users than to just blame Adobe (what a completely crazy notion, I know) - the dude in charge of the bug that had marked it NOTABUG jumped in by pointing out (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c128) that those folks really don't matter to Fedora and noob-friendly workarounds weren't in the game plan.

That is when Linus got pissed; when the answer to his question essentially proved to be "Yup, we sure are! You advanced users found the workaround, but we aren't going to do anything to implement it for non-advanced users."

I'm of the opinion that we need some influential programmers willing to give a hard time and get on the case of elitist and obsessive-compulsive programmers unwilling to implement hacks that work today in favor of forcing non-advanced users to wait 6 months or 6 years for a perfect solution that meets with the perfectionist's approval. I'm glad Linus got on his case for denying folks like my mother usable Flash on that particular Linux distribution.

I think a comparison could accurately be made to Mr. Shuttleworth in that regard, though he isn't a programmer.

I haven't actually gotten around to every actually giving Fedora a spin but now I am left asking myself: "What other stuff in Fedora is intentionally left lacking or broken for folks unwilling or unable to dig through a zillion bug reports?" No thank you. Heck, at least Arch admits up front and documents the stuff it intentionally leaves lacking or busted.

earthpigg
May 10th, 2011, 05:09 AM
Wow, look at this guy's response to the workaround fix that the Fedora dude refused to impliment:


OH MY GOD! I just tried Ray Strode's patch and not only does not fix the sound
bug, but it makes flash WAY MORE STABLE! I used to get flash crashing on me
all the time whenever I played several videos at once, and now I'm noticing
that I no longer see any crashes at all! Incredible!


Indeed. I updates from Linus' patched memcpy preload to Ray Strode's patch and
all the the little hesitations and timing stumbles I'd always gotten on some
sites disappeared.

but nooo, it's a workaround and fixing something that isn't our fault wah wah wah.

Now I'm getting upset at Andre lol. I'll try to control myself. :P

edit: wow, that turned into a hardcore self-depreciating Fedora discussion...


Dan O'Brien 2010-12-04 13:19:01 EST

Good comments, GS, but from the above discussion, it is apparent that Fedora is
not meant for "users" but for "contributers". Your mom and coworkers would be
better off with Ubuntu. If Fedora keeps going in the direction it is, Ubuntu
might end up with a few more followers and Fedora with a few less. I want a
Linux system that works. I've put up with Fedora's "purity" policies from the
beginning, but this one might be the last straw up with which this camel will
not put.

edit2: more not-nice things (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c199) about Fedora, this time from linus.

Spice Weasel
May 10th, 2011, 07:43 AM
That thread was referring to 64-bit Flash, as am I. This is not a simple click/installer process.
As you can see here (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flash#On_64-bit_Fedora)

Yet on Ubuntu, you don't have to deal with any of that. That's my point.

Also, using Windows as your gold standard of usability might raise some eyebrows ;)

You shouldn't be using 64-bit Flash. The above quoted bug report is a good example why.


Does anyone read the thread? Flash works fine, its only people insisting on
using an unsupported (by Adobe themselves) 64-bit preview version of flash
having a problem.

You should be using the 32-bit Adobe Flash plugin, with nspluginwrapper. That
is the supported configuration, both by Adobe, and "unofficially" by Fedora.
There's a reason nspluginwrapper was developed in the first place.

TeoBigusGeekus
May 10th, 2011, 10:51 AM
With so many "politicians" in the linux world (Canonical-Unity), we need people like Linus caring about the end user, telling things how they are and ultimately...kickin' some ***.

Ji Ruo
May 10th, 2011, 01:16 PM
Thanks for posting, it was an interesting read.


I didn't know monkeys masturbate. Interesting thread :wink: .

Monkeys have many talents

http://www.cannedpets.com/uploads/204.jpg