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Hedgehog1
April 16th, 2011, 01:42 AM
No doubt many of you have heard reports about Unity. They tend to be very emotional, and you may find yourself arriving at conclusions about the new UI without ever having actually used it for any period of time.

Before you find yourself siding with one of the three Unity ‘camps’ (Love it, Neutral toward it, Hate it), I wish to remind you of an important concept demonstrated by one of the greatest philosophers of our time, Doctor Seuss.

In his ground-breaking book Green Eggs and Ham , the character Sam-I-Am is offering a meal of Green Eggs and Ham. Because the meal looks different, it is rejected without further consideration.

If you have found yourself thinking ‘Unity just looks to different, I don’t like it’, you may already have been affected by GEAHS (Green Eggs And Ham Syndrome).

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/4989/greeneggsandham.jpg

The appearance of GEAHS among the Ubuntu community has spiked recently because of highly charged (and typically negative) reports on the interface that are based on still-incomplete versions of Unity that a person was using at the time. I am not saying that everyone will love Unity; nor am I asking you to love it. I am requesting that if your realize that you have already judged the interface without having used the completed version for a decent amount of time, give it a fair test before you make your own judgment about it. You don’t have to suffer from GEAHS, it can be overcome!

I have found that trying **any** new User Interface always starts out being uncomfortable. When you operate a User Interface you already know, you don’t think about ‘how’ to do things. But you have to stop and think (or even look up) how to do things on a new User Interface; this always creates some irritation and discomfort.

This is true no matter what new Interface you are trying. When you Use OSX for the first time, you will struggle. When you use Kbuntu or Xbuntu the first time, you will have an adjustment period. Whenever MS Windows 8 comes out, you will have to learn it before it feels ‘comfortable’.

The biggest key to using any new User Interface is finding the fastest ways to do the things you do all the time. It took me two 30 minute session in Unity before I reached ‘parity’ with my operating speed using 10.10. I will be honest and say that some things are faster for me in Unity (because I am working with the new Interface rather than against it), and some things are the same speed, a few things are slower.

I have reached the point of working acceptably in either Unity or ‘Classic Ubuntu Gnome’; and will use whatever interface I have running just fine. At this time I don’t have an overall favorite. I prefer Unity for doing Ubuntu Support on the Forums. I have a number of documents with notes; I have found reading and ‘cutting and pasting’ from my reference documents to the browser is faster now that I am using the strengths of Unity.

Now in your attempt to overcome GEAHS you may find that Unity just isn’t for you. If that is the case, and you still want to run 11.04, some options are:

* Select the Classic Gnome Desktop in Natty
* Try Kbuntu 11.04 (it is very pretty, but expect a learning curve about the same as for Unity)
* Try Xbuntu 11.04 (a more lightweight release with very good performance)

By the end of the Green Eggs and Ham book, we find that Green Eggs and Ham taste just fine (once the psychological issue of a new look have been overcome; GEAHS has been cured).

The Hedge

:KS

p.s. Now I know some of you will be tempted to make well thought out and thought provoking posts in this thread like ‘Unity Stinks’. Please don’t show your GEAHS in a silly way like that. If you Love or Hate it, explain WHY you Love it or Hate it. If you are neutral about Unity, then you don’t have to explain anything because, well, you have no strong feelings either way. I think that is fair…

p.p.s. Remember that upgrading is optional; especially if you are running an LTS (Long Term Support) release. If you are using an LTS; then sit back and relax and just enjoy the ranting and raving…

p.p.p.s. Some folks have asked ‘Why change at all?’. No matter what Gnome based distro you might use; they will all be changing to Gnome 3.0 eventually. One way or another you were going to be facing a User Interface change. Even if Unity had not been created, we would all be facing a new User Interface in Ubuntu. There are heated debates on weather Gnome 3.0 is (or will be) better then Gnome 2.x. What I am trying to say is: One way or another the UI was changing. The Unity effort allows Canonical some control over Ubuntu’s UI destiny.

wolfen69
April 16th, 2011, 02:04 AM
That was different.

Meh, it's the same old song and dance. Every time something changes, people are up in arms, crying and whining. It will never end so get used to it.

Hedgehog1
April 16th, 2011, 02:21 AM
That was different.

Meh, it's the same old song and dance. Every time something changes, people are up in arms, crying and whining. It will never end so get used to it.

Do you know I was rather expecting you would be the first to post on this thread. :p Well, you didn't roast me, and for that I thank you. 'Different' works for me!


The Hedge

:KS

wolfen69
April 16th, 2011, 05:22 AM
Do you know I was rather expecting you would be the first to post on this thread.
I take that as a compliment.
:p Well, you didn't roast me, and for that I thank you. 'Different' works for me!


The Hedge

:KS

You seem like a "livid" type person, but very reasonable. I really don't know you very well, but I'm sure we'll be speaking soon.

Btw, my days of "roasting" people are over. I've just mellowed and enjoy being here. I've met a lot of nice people. DixieDancer.....

Hedgehog1
April 16th, 2011, 06:27 AM
I take that as a compliment.

It is meant as one!


The 'different & livid' Hedge

:KS

+1 on DixieDancer being a nice person....

3rdalbum
April 16th, 2011, 06:31 AM
I think this was a very good post, because it addresses people's attitudes to Unity in a very clear-headed way, but doesn't criticize people for disliking Unity for other reasons. Nominated for Post Of The Year.

wolfen69
April 16th, 2011, 06:42 AM
I think this was a very good post, because it addresses people's attitudes to Unity in a very clear-headed way, but doesn't criticize people for disliking Unity for other reasons. Nominated for Post Of The Year.

I'm not sure I would go that far, as far as post of the year.

Hedgehog1
April 16th, 2011, 02:41 PM
I think this was a very good post, because it addresses people's attitudes to Unity in a very clear-headed way, but doesn't criticize people for disliking Unity for other reasons. Nominated for Post Of The Year.

It is such an Honor to be awarded the Golden Penguin! I would like to thank all the little people that made this award possible. I also want to thank my Momma, and Elvis... :p


3rdalbum - I do appreciate your kind and supportive post. Thanks!


The 'It is an Honor just to be Nominated' Hedge

:KS

Rubi1200
April 16th, 2011, 07:28 PM
That was different.

Meh, it's the same old song and dance. Every time something changes, people are up in arms, crying and whining. It will never end so get used to it.
Remember the huge fuss made about the windows buttons changing from right to left?

As with anything new, people will try it; some will like it and stick with it and others will choose something different.

But, that's the beauty of Linux and FOSS; we are the ones who decide.

@ Hedgehog1; nice post; keep up the good work.

rudihawk
April 16th, 2011, 07:56 PM
I thought I would hate it, i read reviews about how stupid it was and how everyone hated it etc etc.

I then installed the beta version of 11.04 on my PC and thought "hey, let me give this Unity thing a try and see what all the fuss is about!"

Truth is, I love it. I love using it, It works well, it's efficent (I know a fair number of keyboard shortcuts too.)

Don't knock it until you've tried it!

azurehi
April 17th, 2011, 02:45 AM
I am trying Unity on my PC with 23" screen. Some of the experts, who know enough to jump right in and make Unity perform to it's capabilities, make Unity sound wonderful. I am not one of those and hope for guides to help us average users feel comfortable.

Hedgehog1
April 17th, 2011, 03:31 AM
I am trying Unity on my PC with 23" screen. Some of the experts, who know enough to jump right in and make Unity perform to it's capabilities, make Unity sound wonderful. I am not one of those and hope for guides to help us average users feel comfortable.

Thanks for making the effort to give it a fair try!

Guides will appear before too long; the UI continues to mature so folks don't want all the graphics outdated a few days after they make a guide.

Here are a few tips I have so far:

Two reduce/enlarge the size of the icons in the launcher, use Ubuntu Software Center; search for and load 'ccsm', 'Compiz Config Settings Manager'. Then use it to change transparency and icon sizes:

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/3707/unityccsm.png

If you want to keep a program you are running in the launcher, right click on it's launch icon and select 'keep in launcher':

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1171/nattytip01.png

Right click on the 'Applications' Icon to get 'short lists' of specific groups of applications

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6798/nattytip02.png

That is a start on them...

The Hedge

:KS

This is a quick how-to showing the setup of audio over HDMI for NVidia cards in Natty using only GUI.

How To: Audio over HDMI for NVidia in Natty (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1730897)


The Hedge

:KS

wojox
April 17th, 2011, 03:52 AM
That's hilarious. Love the analogy. :P

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Rasa1111
April 17th, 2011, 04:11 AM
haha!
Nice one Hedge. :)
(and congrats on the golden penguin nomination!):D lol

I suffered from GEAHS for a little while.. :???:
but I had actually tried it, and didnt like it at all.

Then I finally decided it was time to just embrace it and try out one of the Betas, and still didnt care for it much..
but the more I used it, and what little i was able to "customize"<:lol:
it got better. lol

Now I can boot into it and use it fine, no problem.
it's still not my most favorite thing ever..
but also not half as bad as I first thought it was. lol

I think it can be really decent in the future.

Cool post
thanks, :) <3

Irihapeti
April 17th, 2011, 07:01 AM
Change means: "Aaargh! Why did they have to drop abc and include this new piece of ... software?"

No change means: "Why do they still have abc? It looks like a relic left over from the Middle Ages of the Internet!"

Seems like we can't win.

Maybe when everyone's unhappy we're onto something... :)

Hedgehog1
April 17th, 2011, 08:04 AM
Maybe when everyone's unhappy we're onto something... :)

Finally! An achievable goal! Make everyone unhappy (The Income Tax folks have done it, why cant we?) :D


The Hedge

:KS

Tamlynmac
April 17th, 2011, 10:14 AM
The goods news is that it's Ubuntu/Linux. Chalk full of choices, there's almost always alternatives. My family has been Ubuntu (5 home systems) "ONLY" since 7.04. Been through quite a few changes and endured. Primarily, because of all the options, specific individuals and of course the help sections of the forums.

Doubt seriously that changes effect all equally. It's been my experience that any attempt to categorize all users - fails miserably. Some prefer different DE's, themes, apps, etc. while others seem to be completely satisfied with the defaults. Ubuntu/Linux flexibility and options are IMHO one of it's most outstanding features. Not to mention it's repositories. ;)

I've learned to respect the opinions of others and instead of arguing I now invest in listening. Hopefully, helping them find alternatives that meet with their expectations. I try and prepare myself (when asked to assist new users - trying it for the first time) to not only assist in the install, but to help them find any and all solutions to their preferences. I've also learned that it's hard to listen, when I think I have all the answers (which I don't), or believe that my opinion is the only one.

IMHO which ever DE, theme, or "whatever" a user prefers, we should listen and endeavor to assure (within our limits) that their Ubuntu/Linux experience is one of success. It's not just about the majority, but rather all users. Each and every user represents another success or failure story in the life of the OS.

Prior to questioning others regarding their preference, perhaps one might ask themselves why Canonical left gnome as an option in 11.04? For many, I'm fairly certain the response will assume that some would resist unity. However, what difference would that make to the next release or the following one? Is the assumption one of success through longevity or might there be another motive?

I suspect the T&E will once again be inundated with the ongoing arguments (new release) over which default "anything" or which OS is better than another. However, in the end it appears to come down to personal choice/opinion. I've witnessed it with every new release (since joining). But, I do believe that the world would be an extremely boring place if everyone enjoyed the exact same "everything".

We all have an opinion, but how we express it might make a big difference. :-k

* Thanks for reading my $0.02

Irihapeti
April 17th, 2011, 12:12 PM
The goods news is that it's Ubuntu/Linux. Chalk full of choices, there's almost always alternatives. My family has been Ubuntu (5 home systems) "ONLY" since 7.04. Been through quite a few changes and endured. Primarily, because of all the options, specific individuals and of course the help sections of the forums.


+1
I've been around a similar length of time and endured. I've come to recognise that strong opinions are expressed over every release, and the sky still manages to stay up there. :)



We all have an opinion, but how we express it might make a big difference. :-k


I totally agree. It's not just what one says, but how one says it that's important. I've seen so many people, both on and off the forums, come to grief because they didn't take into account that their style was causing problems. I was guilty of that at one stage myself, and had to learn the hard way that just having the facts right isn't enough.

Maybe that's an advantage of having a few decades behind one...

Hedgehog1
April 17th, 2011, 09:44 PM
We all have an opinion, but how we express it might make a big difference. :-k


It's not just what one says, but how one says it that's important. I've seen so many people, both on and off the forums, come to grief because they didn't take into account that their style was causing problems.

Wise observations from both of you! Thank you for wording them so well. I have to admit to not always using words in the best style, myself, and suffering for it (or worse, making someone else suffer because of my words and then feel guilty about my behavior).

Word style can really change how ideas are received:

(Bad Style) Why did you ruin the car be getting it in such a stupid color?

(OK style) The color is not my choice, but it sure is a nice car.

(Good Style) Nice car. I think I would like one in blue, myself!

(Best Style) Nice car!



The Hedge

:KS

wolfen69
April 17th, 2011, 11:26 PM
I have to admit to not always using words in the best style, myself, and suffering for it (or worse, making someone else suffer because of my words and then feel guilty about my behavior).


I think we've all done it to some extent, seeing how we as humans are far from perfect. But I myself have been working hard to be more understanding and accepting of other's opinions. It's not always easy though when people spread FUD, or what I perceive to be FUD or trolling. But that's how it has been in almost every forum I've been in. Gotta love it!

If we were all the same, life would be pretty boring. It's all about choice, and making the most of your choices. But I think we all could stand to try and work together more and argue less. Useless bickering and bashing accomplishes nothing. Anyway, I'm drifting here, so take it easy people, and be cool!

toontastic
April 18th, 2011, 02:11 PM
Got to admit I'm struggling to stop with Unity. I went away from Linux for about 6 months as it just wasn't doing what I wanted it to do easily, I've since come back and settled straight back into Ubuntu (keeping Windows 7 though it just works and works easily) and decided I'd give 11.04 a shot. I turned off Unity pretty quickly I must admit and one of the biggest annoyance I found was the fact to make Unity work best you either have to have your main icons down the left else it's a case of searching round the system for what I want. This would work fine if Linux had many well known apps which had names that make sense. It doesn't and so searching is a nightmare. I have gone back to Unity just to give it a bigger chance but searching for apps just doesn't do it for me, it's the same reason I never scroll left on the front page of my iphone I had searching that way.

I do like the moving of Windows so you drop them to the top of the screen and they go full screen, put them to the left and they go half screen to the left. That's taken from Windows 7 however. I'm not keen on the new scroll bars either. Either have them there or don't don't make them disappear they are hard to get a hold of on a touch pad (or at least on mine) though I do like the scrolls on unity. In fact graphically I like Unity it's just using it which is a pain.

rg4w
April 18th, 2011, 02:26 PM
Green Eggs and Ham had an audience size of 1, and was user-tested on 100% of that audience.

As far as I can tell, there have been only two usability tests for Unity, and even with such slender data relative to such a radical departure from common conventions, many of the issues revealed in those tests remain outstanding.

For some, criticism of Unity may be simply a matter of taste. But I believe it's fair to say that there are a number of tangible, measurable weaknesses in the current design which would warrant a postponed deployment if ROI were a goal.

At a minimum, switching the default Download link on the front page of Ubuntu.com from the experimental and unfinished Unity release to the LTS would help manage expectations for folks looking for a robust and well-tested Linux experience.

toontastic
April 18th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Must admit I've just had a play round with Gnome 3 for the past couple of hours and it seems to be more what i would have expected from the dock. It's nice how you can view your windows or choose your menus once you access the dock rather than choosing it before hand and then it takes you into the menu which seems a bit backwards.

I found using Gnome 3 that I didn't have to use the search much and the dock didn't fill the whole screen which was nice. I guess if Ubuntu continues down this road with unity I could move to Fedora 15 and use Gnome 3 instead.

Hedgehog1
April 19th, 2011, 02:52 AM
Got to admit I'm struggling to stop with Unity. I went away from Linux for about 6 months as it just wasn't doing what I wanted it to do easily, I've since come back and settled straight back into Ubuntu (keeping Windows 7 though it just works and works easily) and decided I'd give 11.04 a shot. I turned off Unity pretty quickly I must admit and one of the biggest annoyance I found was the fact to make Unity work best you either have to have your main icons down the left else it's a case of searching round the system for what I want.

I will agree that both the Unity launcher and the Windows 7 launcher work best when filled with icons to your primary applications.

When neither are 'optimized' with key applications, they are pretty basic:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3959/unityvswint.png


In fact graphically I like Unity it's just using it which is a pain.

OK - fair assessment.


Must admit I've just had a play round with Gnome 3 for the past couple of hours and it seems to be more what i would have expected from the dock. It's nice how you can view your windows or choose your menus once you access the dock rather than choosing it before hand and then it takes you into the menu which seems a bit backwards.

I found using Gnome 3 that I didn't have to use the search much and the dock didn't fill the whole screen which was nice. I guess if Ubuntu continues down this road with unity I could move to Fedora 15 and use Gnome 3 instead.

There is an effort to offer a Gnome 3.0 Natty Remix: http://ugr.teampr0xy.net/

The Hedge

:KS


Green Eggs and Ham had an audience size of 1, and was user-tested on 100% of that audience.

Quite true - impeccable logic!


At a minimum, switching the default Download link on the front page of Ubuntu.com from the experimental and unfinished Unity release to the LTS would help manage expectations for folks looking for a robust and well-tested Linux experience.

This idea has merit for even the 10.10 release (at least at first) as well. More so for Natty, given the big change. Honestly any rolling release has some risks; the fact that all non-LTS Ubuntu releases are rolling is not obvious to a new user.

Some folks have suggested that the Ubuntu Classic interface on Natty be the default, and the user select Unity by choice. A milder option...

Thanks for commenting (and getting into the spirit of the thing!)

The Hedge

:KS

73ckn797
April 19th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Running beta2 of Natty on a 40GiB drive. I like unity. It will take some adjustment but I see good things ahead. A few more days playing with it a little longer will decide whether I upgrade from 10.04 to 11.04. As the updates come along with the beta things are smoothing out quite nicely.

Hedgehog1
April 19th, 2011, 03:53 AM
Running beta2 of Natty on a 40GiB drive. I like unity. It will take some adjustment but I see good things ahead. A few more days playing with it a little longer will decide whether I upgrade from 10.04 to 11.04. As the updates come along with the beta things are smoothing out quite nicely.

They are making nice progress every day.

The only issue for upgrading right now for me is: Virtual Box (and VMware) do not yet have a natty compatible release. If you use virtual machines (I have a bunch of them in Vbox!) you may want to wait until they are available.

Another nice enhancement is the updated grub. I like that it puts the older kernels in a sub-menu to keep from cluttering up the main menu. The graphic support has also been enhanced, but I have not played with that yet.

Thanks for Posting!

The Hedge

:KS

tlcstat
April 19th, 2011, 03:57 AM
Greetings,
Just a question! Has anyone thought of just testing Natty and Unity, reporting any problems to the developers and reserving criticism until it is actually released? I have personally been amazed at every turn with this new system and can't wait for the release. Have a little faith people! This is going to be a good thing!
tlcstat

sammiev
April 19th, 2011, 04:06 AM
I have used Natty for more than 3 weeks now and just tried Gnome 3 for about 3 days now. If at all possible I would hope both can be supported in 11.10 :)

Hedgehog1
April 19th, 2011, 04:25 AM
Greetings,
Just a question! Has anyone thought of just testing Natty and Unity, reporting any problems to the developers and reserving criticism until it is actually released? I have personally been amazed at every turn with this new system and can't wait for the release. Have a little faith people! This is going to be a good thing!
tlcstat

I have a new best friend.... :D (Don't judge the food until it's been completely cooked!)


The Hedge

:KS

toontastic
April 19th, 2011, 08:40 AM
I will agree that both the Unity launcher and the Windows 7 launcher work best when filled with icons to your primary applications.

When neither are 'optimized' with key applications, they are pretty basic:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3959/unityvswint.png

I think the difference though is that isn't your main use bar in Windows as you still have the Start menu which feels missing in Ubuntu due to the layout. GEAH maybe, but it's something that works well.





There is an effort to offer a Gnome 3.0 Natty Remix: http://ugr.teampr0xy.net/

The Hedge

:KS

Thanks for this I didn't know about it, I'll take a closer look as I'm really liking Gnome 3 and in my opinion the changes made by Ubuntu have made it worse not better.

Hedgehog1
April 19th, 2011, 11:41 AM
I think the difference though is that isn't your main use bar in Windows as you still have the Start menu which feels missing in Ubuntu due to the layout. GEAH maybe, but it's something that works well.

It's only GEAHS if you didn't try it first. You are fine!

I would also like the menu in addition to the launch bar in unity; It is interesting that Gnome-Shell 3.0 does have the menu (sorta) but also shows applications in the same way Unity does... I will say that Gnome-shell 3.0 shows a lot of potential.

The Image I used was from a screen shot of one of my Windows 7 Vbox systems. When I dual boot into Windows 7, I actually do have all my apps in the Windows launcher bar and seldom wander into the 'start' menu.

The Hedge

:KS

alyo
April 19th, 2011, 06:30 PM
Well written, I do have some problems with Unity, though.

While I haven't tried Unity on a workstation - and I expect it works (reasonably) well there - my problem is with the Netbook edition.

I had only recently noticed that there was a distro update, so I decided to go for it. After using Unity for a few minutes I was depressed. Launching some applications was cumbersome at best, while launching others was impossible without the use of a shell.

However, the biggest problems for me turned out to be the absurdly slow pace at which the netbook was running and the lack of customization. Waiting 15 seconds for Synaptic/Chrome/etc. to open was really painful, not to mention the fact that whenever I clicked on the Ubuntu icon in the top right I would have to wait a few seconds for it to load a completely unintuitive application menu. My netbook uses an integrated Intel graphics adapter which is not ready for such GUI effects. Also, I want my netbook's battery to last as long as possible and all of the graphical effects, while nice (and slow :P), were causing heavy drains on the battery.

Trying to customize anything proved even more insufferable. The fact that I could not find any customization for the panel on the right, bar removing icons, the application menu, was incredibly frustrating.

Additionally, the sidebar, which is supposed to save up space, only used up more of the little screen resolution that I have.

While I can imagine that Unity can work well on a desktop, I found it defeats itself in its purpose to be lightweight on a netbook and I don't see a good reason to continue the netbook edition with Unity included - at least for now.

I am not being critical of Unity in general, only of Unity in the netbook edition. As things are, I won't be trying Unity again on my netbook anytime soon.

Edit: For some reason, I also could't change the time display to 24 hours, but that may have been due to lack of trying.

3Miro
April 19th, 2011, 09:18 PM
Well written, I do have some problems with Unity, though.

While I haven't tried Unity on a workstation - and I expect it works (reasonably) well there - my problem is with the Netbook edition.

I had only recently noticed that there was a distro update, so I decided to go for it. After using Unity for a few minutes I was depressed. Launching some applications was cumbersome at best, while launching others was impossible without the use of a shell.

However, the biggest problems for me turned out to be the absurdly slow pace at which the netbook was running and the lack of customization. Waiting 15 seconds for Synaptic/Chrome/etc. to open was really painful, not to mention the fact that whenever I clicked on the Ubuntu icon in the top right I would have to wait a few seconds for it to load a completely unintuitive application menu. My netbook uses an integrated Intel graphics adapter which is not ready for such GUI effects. Also, I want my netbook's battery to last as long as possible and all of the graphical effects, while nice (and slow :P), were causing heavy drains on the battery.

Trying to customize anything proved even more insufferable. The fact that I could not find any customization for the panel on the right, bar removing icons, the application menu, was incredibly frustrating.

Additionally, the sidebar, which is supposed to save up space, only used up more of the little screen resolution that I have.

While I can imagine that Unity can work well on a desktop, I found it defeats itself in its purpose to be lightweight on a netbook and I don't see a good reason to continue the netbook edition with Unity included - at least for now.

I am not being critical of Unity in general, only of Unity in the netbook edition. As things are, I won't be trying Unity again on my netbook anytime soon.

Edit: For some reason, I also could't change the time display to 24 hours, but that may have been due to lack of trying.

- The visual effects are giving you trouble because of the video driver (most likely). I find Unity incredibly snappy, but I am on an Nvidia desktop.
- Install CCSM (compiz-config-settings-manager). You can adjust somethings about Unity from there (including the size ofthe left-side dock). You can also try to disable some of the default compiz effects, this may improve performance for you. I also have an Intel video laptop and minimal compiz doesn't really affect the battery life (I am not running Unity on the laptop).
- Unity generally lacks customizations, but I am sure more will come later.

I hope this helps.



I would also like the menu in addition to the launch bar in unity; It is interesting that Gnome-Shell 3.0 does have the menu (sorta) but also shows applications in the same way Unity does... I will say that Gnome-shell 3.0 shows a lot of potential.


Hedge, do you know if compiz runs on Gnome 3? I have a suspicion that Ubuntu may turn towards KDE, seeing how Unity 3D is just compiz (which runs well with KDE) and Unity 2D is QT based already. Gnome 3 uses mutter, which from what I understand uses different standards from compiz. I know there is nothing official on the subject, but I am interested if you have an opinion about this.

I for one don't like Gnome-shell. It severely lacks mouse functionality. This fine with many people, but I like to use my mouse.

el_koraco
April 19th, 2011, 11:17 PM
Hedge, do you know if compiz runs on Gnome 3? I have a suspicion that Ubuntu may turn towards KDE, seeing how Unity 3D is just compiz (which runs well with KDE) and Unity 2D is QT based already.

No, and not for the forseeable future. The mainline is tighter integration of tthe WM and the environment, kind of like KDE has with KWin. Of course, because KDE is much less rigid, adding Compiz to KDE is no problem, while the same can't be said for Gnome.

Link (http://live.gnome.org/GNOME3Myths#I_can.27t_use_Compiz_with_GNOME_Shell. 21), and the accompanying mailing list.

On the other hand, your Ubuntu/KDE assumption is quite beyond me. The future of the desktop in Ubuntu is kinda the third way. It will be Gnome apps and libraries, plus Compiz as the standalone WM. That's why all the bugs got in there at the first place, integrating Compiz with Gnome has never exactly been an easy task, as countless memory leaks and system freak outs prove.Building a Compiz environment on top of Gnome, with the appindicators and everything is even harder. for all the gripe about Unity, the fact that they've even made it work in such a short period of time is a small wonder.


I for one don't like Gnome-shell. It severely lacks mouse functionality. This fine with many people, but I like to use my mouse.

+100
It is so lacking in the window management department, it's not even funny. Unity is not much better, but at least it has some features. I just don't get this morose idea of removing the taskbar functionality and replacing it with half baked ideas, but i suspect Ubuntu will add smoothtasks functionality to the dock in the next release.

Hedgehog1
April 20th, 2011, 02:41 AM
While I haven't tried Unity on a workstation - and I expect it works (reasonably) well there - my problem is with the Netbook edition.

However, the biggest problems for me turned out to be the absurdly slow pace at which the netbook was running and the lack of customization. Waiting 15 seconds for Synaptic/Chrome/etc. to open was really painful ...

The trend does seem to be that each new desktop implementation wants to use more CPU and resources. Ubuntu 10.04 and 10.10 will not run well on order hardware, and Natty does indeed want more resources for Compiz.

While I don't feel it as much on my desktop with 'untapped' horse power, I can certainly see a netbook running much slower because of it.

The use of more CPU and GPU for each release is by no means unique to Ubuntu; but in all honesty the 'unspoken desire' of many distro's to 'keep up with Windows/OSX' is a driving force.

I think it is fair to say that Unity with Compiz may demand to much from netbooks and other more minimalistic hardware.

Do you think you will be trying Kbuntu 11.04 or Xbuntu 11.04? Or just stick with 10.10 or 10.04 LTS? Just wondering.

Thanks for your well thought out post!


The Hedge

:KS


Hedge, do you know if compiz runs on Gnome 3? I have a suspicion that Ubuntu may turn towards KDE, seeing how Unity 3D is just compiz (which runs well with KDE) and Unity 2D is QT based already. Gnome 3 uses mutter, which from what I understand uses different standards from compiz. I know there is nothing official on the subject, but I am interested if you have an opinion about this.

I for one don't like Gnome-shell. It severely lacks mouse functionality. This fine with many people, but I like to use my mouse.

My running of Gnome Shell 3.0 on a Natty base did not appear to be using any Compiz, so I think that el_koraco is very correct in his post.

I have strongly mixed feelings about Gnome Shell 3.0. It is at least as different as Unity is. It changes the way you work very radically from the 2.x version. I can see the intent, but it is also less finished than Unity (for now). I am unwilling to judge the GS3 UI while it is 'still cooking'.

I know I can use both Unity and GS3 pretty well, however the numerous bugs I hit in Gnome Shell 3.0 keep me from operating it very long before I get annoyed. GS3 is, however, in early alpha in all fairness.


The Hedge

:KS

wolfen69
April 20th, 2011, 06:31 AM
GS3 is, however, in early alpha in all fairness.


Just think back to when KDE4 first came out. I think G3 is ahead of kde in terms of how good it is on first release, and has a lot of room to grow. Check back in a year and you will probably barely recognize it.

I sometimes like having 2 different ubuntu installs at the same time anyway, and this would be a good time to have 10.10 and 11.04(G3) both, while G3 matures. And I'll have another hard drive for testing other distros. What more could a geek ask for? No room for complaints here, there are enough choices to go around. Great time to be a linux fan.

I also can't wait to try Kubuntu with 4.6

3rdalbum
April 21st, 2011, 04:24 AM
The trend does seem to be that each new desktop implementation wants to use more CPU and resources. Ubuntu 10.04 and 10.10 will not run well on order hardware, and Natty does indeed want more resources for Compiz.

While I don't feel it as much on my desktop with 'untapped' horse power, I can certainly see a netbook running much slower because of it.

Not observed on my netbook, actually. The Intel graphics used in bog-standard netbooks might be weak, but it's powerful enough to run Unity and Compiz; it's even powerful enough for RGBA application window transparency (glassy windows) which is what I used to use on regular Gnome. With static blur (frosted glass windows).


I know I can use both Unity and GS3 pretty well, however the numerous bugs I hit in Gnome Shell 3.0 keep me from operating it very long before I get annoyed. GS3 is, however, in early alpha in all fairness.

Technically, no. The version of Unity you've been using is beta and "unreleased", whereas Gnome 3.0 has been officially "released". Also, Gnome Shell has been in development a lot longer than Unity.

Hedgehog1
April 21st, 2011, 06:13 AM
Technically, no. The version of Unity you've been using is beta and "unreleased", whereas Gnome 3.0 has been officially "released". Also, Gnome Shell has been in development a lot longer than Unity.

While Gnome 3.0 (G3) may be released (I did not realize this, thanks for that info) but operating Gnome Shell 3.0 (GS3) on Natty is still very young, isn't it?

The Ubuntu GNOME Remix site http://ugr.teampr0xy.net/install is calling this version of the Shell for Ubuntu 0.0.1

To me, 0.0.1 is not a released level yet. So does this level apply to just the Shell (GS3) and PPAs for Ubuntu that support GS3? If that is the case, then I think my earlier comment is still OK:


GS3 is, however, in early alpha in all fairness.

I was referring to Gnome Shell 3.0 (GS3) for Natty.


The Hedge

:KS

3Miro
April 21st, 2011, 02:19 PM
While Gnome 3.0 (G3) may be released (I did not realize this, thanks for that info) but operating Gnome Shell 3.0 (GS3) on Natty is still very young, isn't it?


Gnome 3.0 has made an official release, however, to the best of my knowledge, none of the major distributions have declared that "stable" yet, meaning GS is not yet integrated into any distribution. This does tell you couple of things though, first: bugs are still there, but they will be improved. second: there will be no major changes to the interface.

Hedgehog1
April 21st, 2011, 04:15 PM
Gnome 3.0 has made an official release, however, to the best of my knowledge, none of the major distributions have declared that "stable" yet, meaning GS is not yet integrated into any distribution. This does tell you couple of things though, first: bugs are still there, but they will be improved. second: there will be no major changes to the interface.

So this is a semantics issue? It is 'Unstable' but the UI flow will stay the same? If bug fixes are all it gets from now on, that resolves my sort term issues with it.

But GS3 integration with Ubuntu is at what state then? Officially I mean?

The Hedge

:KS

p.s. Huge slug of updates on my Natty installs on April 20th; a number of smaller issues have been resolved on the desktop & Laptop installs. In addition, one larger issue on my laptop is fixed now (shutdown flushing to the disk OK but not shutting down all the way - works properly again and with the pretty graphic back, too)

3Miro
April 21st, 2011, 05:17 PM
But GS3 integration with Ubuntu is at what state then? Officially I mean?


Officially, 11.04 comes with Gnome 2.32 and it will not be integrated with Gnome 3.0. GS3 will not be part of the 11.04 "official" repository as an upgrade from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3 is irreversible and will probably break Unity.

Gnome 3 integration into Ubuntu can happen in 11.10 at he earliest.

screamingturnip
April 22nd, 2011, 12:59 AM
Are we talking about that Netbook remix of meerkat? Or has there been another release with unity?

My experience was just off a live usb. I remember it hooked up with my EEE pc's wireless immediately, that was a first. The windows were kind of hard for me to navigate, Also the icons on the side distracted me(really minor as I'm betting there is a fullscreen option). I don't really like how you look for files in it.
Overall, it seemed to work, flash played, youtube was A OK. It's just not there yet, which really isn't surprising. It's hard being first, I sympathize but I'm waiting for the next version.

overdrank
April 22nd, 2011, 02:09 AM
Moved to The Community Cafe :)

groovomata
April 22nd, 2011, 02:45 AM
Very clever post, I hadn't read Green Eggs and Ham in a long long time.

PatrickMay16
April 22nd, 2011, 03:00 AM
Now first of all, I would like to say that this post contains my opinions, and I am not trying to claim that my opinions are universally true facts.

I switched to Debian back in mid-2008 when Ubuntu started pushing Pulseaudio. Anyway, let me tell you, GNOME 3, KDE 4, and Unity... they're all crazy. It seems like GUI designers are more interested in shiny special effects than usable interfaces.

I switched to XFCE earlier this month after hearing the news about GNOME 3. Seems like it's the only sane DE left, and if that gets ruined too, I dunno what I'll do. I suppose I'll end up using IceWM, or Openbox or something.

By the way, someone on the debian forums wrote this, I think it's a parody of a popular song or something. I thought it was pretty funny.


Unity is just a space tourism ticket...

I think I'm gonna be sad,
I think it's today, yeah.
The Ubuntu's that's driving me mad
Is going away.

We've got a ticket to Deb-ian,
We've got a ticket to Deh-eh-bian,
We've got a ticket to Debian,
But Mark's don't care.

Your master don't care, your master don't care.
Mark don't care...

He only cares about money...

Look, I know it's kind of offensive. But if you're reading Mr Shuttleworth, it's just a joke, don't get upset or anything, understand, OK, good.

Listen guys, I can't stress this enough. Using Debian is like a smörgåsbord for a man. Yeah. No, I don't intend to write any more about this now, but I hope that you enjoyed my post.

Of the Debian user in me. **** yeah, use it. It's good y'know. Hoauhauhghg bastards.

neu5eeCh
April 22nd, 2011, 04:03 AM
I have found that trying **any** new User Interface always starts out being uncomfortable. When you operate a User Interface you already know, you don’t think about ‘how’ to do things. But you have to stop and think (or even look up) how to do things on a new User Interface; this always creates some irritation and discomfort.

Right, but what irritates me is all the boosterish back-patting that's going on among proponents of Unity. Anybody who doesn't like it is a knee-jerk troglodyte. And yet these were probably many of the same personality-types who were agog at VISTA (until they weren't). Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better. (Advertisers figured out, a long time ago, that putting "New & Improved" on your latest box of TIDE was practically a mating call.)

Maybe users who dislike Unity, dislike it for good reason; and maybe users who like Unity, like it for the wrong reasons - in a word, Bling. So there's a dock bar. So what? I could do that already. So there are keyboard shortcuts. So what? I've got those already. Unity offers me nothing that I don't already have and can do better with the ability to customize. In ways, it's worse.

From what I've gathered, Shuttleworth devised Unity so that he could have a standard GUI for a variety of interfaces. That's good for Ubuntu and third party purveyors but bad for the customized Linux experience.

That said, I'm totally psyched for Xubuntu. XFCE 4.8 looks great and my gratitude to Canonical. Simple. More lightweight. Faster. Customizable. Slick as all get-out. When I introduce new users to Linux, it won't be Ubuntu, but Xubuntu.

neu5eeCh
April 22nd, 2011, 04:15 AM
anyway, let me tell you, gnome 3, kde 4, and unity... They're all crazy. It seems like gui designers are more interested in shiny special effects than usable interfaces. [...] i switched to xfce earlier this month after hearing the news about gnome 3. Seems like it's the only sane de left....

+1000 =d>

Hedgehog1
April 22nd, 2011, 04:28 AM
(Advertisers figured out, a long time ago, that putting "New & Improved" on your latest box of TIDE was practically a mating call.)

I am SOOOO glad I was not drinking milk while reading this - I would have sprayed it all over the Monitor!!!


That said, I'm totally psyched for Xubuntu. XFCE 4.8 looks great and my gratitude to Canonical. Simple. More lightweight. Faster. Customizable. Slick as all get-out. When I introduce new users to Linux, it won't be Ubuntu, but Xubuntu.

Works for me - Lightweight and fast what brought many to Linux Distros in the first place.

I will admit - it seems times is short for my 'rotating cube' and 'wobbly windows'. <hedgie frown> I will miss them so....


The Hedge

:KS

pony-tail
April 22nd, 2011, 05:52 AM
I neither know or care if Unity Is good or bad . It does not do what I want a GUI to do - so therefore is of no use to me . I used it for 2 weeks and it annoyed me and frustrated me . I am currently using Gnome 3 and Gnome shell , after 4 days I could live with it if I had to but would prefer not to . I have been through the change from gnome 1.x to 2.x there was a bit of fight back on that but not as much as this . I can use almost any OS put in front of me and I have over many years ( 31 to be precise ). I have developed methods of using computers that work very well for me - and Gnome panels is a very good fit for that , neither Unity nor Gnome shell are . There are alternatives at present but many will soon expire so that leaves me wondering where it will wind up going .
I am 55 years old and I suspect that the demographic of the hardcore Unity supporters ( the ones that get all shirty if one says anything against Unity ) are in the under 25 age group . I deduced this from their lack of patience and absence of maturity ,
With a change as large as this there is bound to be a lot of dissent .
The changes have been made , Unity fans need to accept that some people will never want to use Unity and move on and people like me who have no use for Unity will just have to move out , leave you with you Unity and find something else . Which I might add is what I am doing , Hence the testing of Fedora Gnome 3 and Kubuntu 11.04 .

NormanFLinux
April 22nd, 2011, 07:53 AM
I tested the 2D version on my netbook. Pretty decent interface, could use right click.... there are too many clicks to look up apps in the menu and there should a favorite list in a future version.

The idea is to drop the desktop and have everything from a launcher and I can live even with the minimized window.

I don't think its there yet but it has potential as the biggest change in the traditional desktop.

At least its not a glorified browser like GNOME OS! ;-)


No doubt many of you have heard reports about Unity. They tend to be very emotional, and you may find yourself arriving at conclusions about the new UI without ever having actually used it for any period of time.

Before you find yourself siding with one of the three Unity ‘camps’ (Love it, Neutral toward it, Hate it), I wish to remind you of an important concept demonstrated by one of the greatest philosophers of our time, Doctor Seuss.

In his ground-breaking book Green Eggs and Ham , the character Sam-I-Am is offering a meal of Green Eggs and Ham. Because the meal looks different, it is rejected without further consideration.

If you have found yourself thinking ‘Unity just looks to different, I don’t like it’, you may already have been affected by GEAHS (Green Eggs And Ham Syndrome).

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/4989/greeneggsandham.jpg

The appearance of GEAHS among the Ubuntu community has spiked recently because of highly charged (and typically negative) reports on the interface that are based on still-incomplete versions of Unity that a person was using at the time. I am not saying that everyone will love Unity; nor am I asking you to love it. I am requesting that if your realize that you have already judged the interface without having used the completed version for a decent amount of time, give it a fair test before you make your own judgment about it. You don’t have to suffer from GEAHS, it can be overcome!

I have found that trying **any** new User Interface always starts out being uncomfortable. When you operate a User Interface you already know, you don’t think about ‘how’ to do things. But you have to stop and think (or even look up) how to do things on a new User Interface; this always creates some irritation and discomfort.

This is true no matter what new Interface you are trying. When you Use OSX for the first time, you will struggle. When you use Kbuntu or Xbuntu the first time, you will have an adjustment period. Whenever MS Windows 8 comes out, you will have to learn it before it feels ‘comfortable’.

The biggest key to using any new User Interface is finding the fastest ways to do the things you do all the time. It took me two 30 minute session in Unity before I reached ‘parity’ with my operating speed using 10.10. I will be honest and say that some things are faster for me in Unity (because I am working with the new Interface rather than against it), and some things are the same speed, a few things are slower.

I have reached the point of working acceptably in either Unity or ‘Classic Ubuntu Gnome’; and will use whatever interface I have running just fine. At this time I don’t have an overall favorite. I prefer Unity for doing Ubuntu Support on the Forums. I have a number of documents with notes; I have found reading and ‘cutting and pasting’ from my reference documents to the browser is faster now that I am using the strengths of Unity.

Now in your attempt to overcome GEAHS you may find that Unity just isn’t for you. If that is the case, and you still want to run 11.04, some options are:

* Select the Classic Gnome Desktop in Natty
* Try Kbuntu 11.04 (it is very pretty, but expect a learning curve about the same as for Unity)
* Try Xbuntu 11.04 (a more lightweight release with very good performance)

By the end of the Green Eggs and Ham book, we find that Green Eggs and Ham taste just fine (once the psychological issue of a new look have been overcome; GEAHS has been cured).

The Hedge

:KS

p.s. Now I know some of you will be tempted to make well thought out and thought provoking posts in this thread like ‘Unity Stinks’. Please don’t show your GEAHS in a silly way like that. If you Love or Hate it, explain WHY you Love it or Hate it. If you are neutral about Unity, then you don’t have to explain anything because, well, you have no strong feelings either way. I think that is fair…

p.p.s. Remember that upgrading is optional; especially if you are running an LTS (Long Term Support) release. If you are using an LTS; then sit back and relax and just enjoy the ranting and raving…

p.p.p.s. Some folks have asked ‘Why change at all?’. No matter what Gnome based distro you might use; they will all be changing to Gnome 3.0 eventually. One way or another you were going to be facing a User Interface change. Even if Unity had not been created, we would all be facing a new User Interface in Ubuntu. There are heated debates on weather Gnome 3.0 is (or will be) better then Gnome 2.x. What I am trying to say is: One way or another the UI was changing. The Unity effort allows Canonical some control over Ubuntu’s UI destiny.

NormanFLinux
April 22nd, 2011, 07:55 AM
The beta 2 version is for all practical intents and purposes the final version. Canonical got it done since they're not even bothering with a release candidate version before Natty Narwhal's official launch next week!

NormanFLinux
April 22nd, 2011, 08:07 AM
DON'T install Netbook Unity.

Unity 2D works with netbooks and Unity 3D will become the default for laptops and desktops.

Hedgehog1
April 22nd, 2011, 12:29 PM
The beta 2 version is for all practical intents and purposes the final version. Canonical got it done since they're not even bothering with a release candidate version before Natty Narwhal's official launch next week!

The Natty release really settled down (defect wise) in the last few days.

If you want super-fast performance, select 'Ubuntu Class No Effects', and you can see it really scream....

The Hedge

:KS

grahammechanical
April 22nd, 2011, 12:59 PM
I see the issue in a very simplified way.

First, there was Linux (geeks only need apply). Then, there was Ubuntu (Linux for humans + geeks as well). Now, there is Unity (Ubuntu for humans that do not want to know that they are using a computer + humans and geeks that like using a computer).

At some point there will be a parting of the ways. There will be different devices using different CPUs running optimised versions of Linux/Ubuntu. Perhaps Unity will be the common look that the user sees. Or not, according to our freedom to choose.

Regards.

3Miro
April 22nd, 2011, 02:20 PM
I use XFCE, but there is nothing there in usability and/or features that I cannot achieve in KDE. KDE is the most flexible DE at the moment, the only criticism you can have for it is that it is not as fast and slim as XFCE.

Gnome2 interface is good, unfortunately Gnome-panel and Metacity are deprecated technology. Gnome had to either completely redo those or make something different. They chose to make Gnome-shell, which unfortunately scraps a lot of functionality. If the features that GS is missing are not something that you use, then it is great, otherwise it is horrible.

Ubuntu could have gone with Gnome-shell, which aims only at a relatively small subset of users, or they could have done something new. Canonical scrapped the deprecated technology of Gnome-panel and added the dock and panel to pure compiz (same WM that was default in Ubuntu for couple of years already).

You can dislike Unity, but it is far from dysfunctional or anything like that. Please, I am interested in hearing from the people that hate Unity: Objectively, what is it that you think is making it "dysfunctional"? The only comments that I have heard so far were about customization and usually about things that people just didn't know how to customize (the options were there, just not in the same place as Gnome2).

neu5eeCh
April 22nd, 2011, 02:43 PM
I use XFCE, but there is nothing there in usability and/or features that I cannot achieve in KDE. KDE is the most flexible DE at the moment, the only criticism you can have for it is that it is not as fast and slim as XFCE.


True. KDE is fantastically customizable, but it's slower, cluttered with effects, and offers far more than I need. Why try to make KDE look like XFCE when XFCE (esp. 4.8) is lean, mean, and ready to go?


The only comments that I have heard so far were about customization and usually about things that people just didn't know how to customize (the options were there, just not in the same place as Gnome2).

I just noticed, over at OMG Ubuntu (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/04/how-to-add-folder-quicklists-to-the-home-launcher-in-ubuntu-unity/), that hackers are already hard at work, beginning to re-introduce "THE TEXT MENU". And that, to me, is the biggest problem with Unity (and Gnome 3), their absurd ICON menus. Before long, you're going to see all of the old Gnome Text Menus making their re-appearance. Why? Because they're proven and they work.

In terms of efficient use of vertical space, Gnome 3 is a joke. Unity is much better but not as good as a customized Gnome 2 or XFCE.

3Miro
April 22nd, 2011, 03:03 PM
I just noticed, over at OMG Ubuntu (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/04/how-to-add-folder-quicklists-to-the-home-launcher-in-ubuntu-unity/), that hackers are already hard at work, beginning to re-introduce "THE TEXT MENU". And that, to me, is the biggest problem with Unity (and Gnome 3), their absurd ICON menus. Before long, you're going to see all of the old Gnome Text Menus making their re-appearance. Why? Because they're proven and they work.


Right-click on the menu applet on the doc (the last one before the "workspace switcher" and the mounted removable media. This gives you the good old category based menu. Right-click/Left-click and you can see all the applications from Multimedia or Network or whatever. The difference with the test menu is that it saves one mouse click (just the click, not the movement). Did you know about that?

neu5eeCh
April 22nd, 2011, 03:33 PM
Right-click on the menu applet on the doc (the last one before the "workspace switcher" and the mounted removable media. This gives you the good old category based menu. Right-click/Left-click and you can see all the applications from Multimedia or Network or whatever. The difference with the test menu is that it saves one mouse click (just the click, not the movement). Did you know about that?

No. I loaded up Unity (Beta 2) on my other Laptop, prepared to eat crow, but nothing doing. All you get is a generalized text menu of categories. Choose one of these categories and you're immediately booted into the WALL o'ICONS.

It's awful.

In truth, it's nothing more than a throwback to the VISTA control panel (tried five years ago and more or less abandoned by MS). Even MS saw the limitations in the WALL o'ICONS paradigm and let users opt for a "text view". I know comparisons to Vista will be anathema to some, but this "new" Unity model was tried by Windows.

3Miro
April 22nd, 2011, 03:44 PM
No. I loaded up Unity (Beta 2) on my other Laptop, prepared to eat crow, but nothing doing. All you get is a generalized text menu of categories. Choose one of these categories and you're immediately booted into the WALL o'ICONS.


They are just organized differently, most used on top, installed in the middle and to be downloaded at the end. You will not need more than a single click to get your app. It is not the text menu and I don't know what vista did, but I find this to be way faster than the default KDE or Windows 7 menus (although the text menu does have some advantages).

neu5eeCh
April 22nd, 2011, 03:59 PM
They are just organized differently, most used on top, installed in the middle and to be downloaded at the end. You will not need more than a single click to get your app. It is not the text menu and I don't know what vista did, but I find this to be way faster than the default KDE or Windows 7 menus (although the text menu does have some advantages).

But it's a solution in search of a problem. I never needed more than a click to get to my App. Once one has become accustomed to an OS (for the most part) they can all be equally efficient. But what if one isn't familiar with the OS? What good is a Search option if you don't know the name of the app you're looking for? It's much quicker, more efficient and easier to read an alphabetical list (Text Menu) than to search through a horizontally arranged wall of icons.

3Miro
April 22nd, 2011, 07:15 PM
It's much quicker, more efficient and easier to read an alphabetical list (Text Menu) than to search through a horizontally arranged wall of icons.

Those are two rows of icons, not a wall (just look at the first two rows).

Eventually I put all the programs that I use in shortcuts, just like I do in XFCE and Unity. I hated the default KDE menu, I think it makes things hard to search in the beginning (looking for the name of the app in the specific category), but I really don't see the Unity menu as making it difficult at all.

neu5eeCh
April 22nd, 2011, 10:10 PM
Those are two rows of icons, not a wall (just look at the first two rows).

That depends on a lot of things. It depends on how many Apps you have and if you know where to look. Those two rows could easily turn into a wall and *are* if you don't know where to look. It's a poor way to do things. If you have a touch screen (which is what this seems to be geared toward), then it's a necessity; but if you have a keyboard , this approach strikes me as nonsensical.

3Miro
April 22nd, 2011, 10:17 PM
That depends on a lot of things. It depends on how many Apps you have and if you know where to look. Those two rows could easily turn into a wall and *are* if you don't know where to look. It's a poor way to do things. If you have a touch screen (which is what this seems to be geared toward), then it's a necessity; but if you have a keyboard , this approach strikes me as nonsensical.

Now that makes sense. You are relying on your keyboard a lot. I prefer to use the mouse (and mouse only). So I guess this is the biggest contrast between Gnome-shell and Unity, one is for keyboard and one is for mouse.

Artemis3
April 23rd, 2011, 02:07 AM
Ah, so THIS was the "philosophical" discussion the user in the other thread was referring to ;)

Lets see, different colored egg would be switching brown with purple, or moving the buttons to the left; pretty mild, psychological even.

BUT Unity AND Gnome Shell? Its like switching the DE completely. And in fact, thats what going from Gnome2 to gnome3 is.

It is not even a Canonical decision, as some people seem to believe, Unity is nothing more than Canonical's reaction to the discontinuation of Gnome2 and its "Classic" shell. Even if Canonical were to stick to the new default Shell, as much damage (if not worse) would occur.

The real issue: Ubuntu 11.10 is changing its Desktop Environment; and there will be a defaulted preview of it in 11.04. But some other distros are already jumping to the completely different desktop environment that is Gnome3's new shell.

And in fact the situation does not allow for any form of continuation, short of Canonical truly forking gnome2 to maintain it (ala Trinity for KDE3), but they won't do it.

So the situation at hand is that we face a Desktop Environment change. We can only choose how deep the change will be, Canonical made a choice, other distros are making choices. Which is the less radical of the changes? XFCE, the default Desktop Environment in Xubuntu, which still uses gtk, and still handles gnome applets the usual way, and has the panels, a "start" menu, etc.

The only way you can stay with Gnome2 is to not upgrade, if not 11.04, very surely not to 11.10. 11.04 is the last one with Gnome2.

Do you really want to try the changes? go ahead, you can even install Unity in 10.10; and Gnome Shell in 11.04; see if you like it; even try KDE4 (Kubuntu), thats very fine.

Take a look at these pics, here is where we are (Classic):
http://files.cyberciti.biz/uploads/tips/2010/10/Ubuntu-Maverick-Desktop.png

And here is where we go (Unity):
https://myblogstarz.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/5.jpg

Here is an alternative (XFCE):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5633960541_e799e76783.jpg

And another (KDE):
http://img.entreadictos.cl/images/kubuntu110.jpg

Don't forget, Gnome(3) Shell:
http://www.botskool.com/sites/default/files/image/gnome-shell-5.jpg

What would be your CHOICE?

smellyman
April 23rd, 2011, 03:10 AM
Ah, so THIS was the "philosophical" discussion the user in the other thread was referring to ;)

Lets see, different colored egg would be switching brown with purple, or moving the buttons to the left; pretty mild, psychological even.

BUT Unity AND Gnome Shell? Its like switching the DE completely. And in fact, thats what going from Gnome2 to gnome3 is.

It is not even a Canonical decision, as some people seem to believe, Unity is nothing more than Canonical's reaction to the discontinuation of Gnome2 and its "Classic" shell. Even if Canonical were to stick to the new default Shell, as much damage (if not worse) would occur.

The real issue: Ubuntu 11.10 is changing its Desktop Environment; and there will be a defaulted preview of it in 11.04. But some other distros are already jumping to the completely different desktop environment that is Gnome3's new shell.

And in fact the situation does not allow for any form of continuation, short of Canonical truly forking gnome2 to maintain it (ala Trinity for KDE3), but they won't do it.

So the situation at hand is that we face a Desktop Environment change. We can only choose how deep the change will be, Canonical made a choice, other distros are making choices. Which is the less radical of the changes? XFCE, the default Desktop Environment in Xubuntu, which still uses gtk, and still handles gnome applets the usual way, and has the panels, a "start" menu, etc.

The only way you can stay with Gnome2 is to not upgrade, if not 11.04, very surely not to 11.10. 11.04 is the last one with Gnome2.

Do you really want to try the changes? go ahead, you can even install Unity in 10.10; and Gnome Shell in 11.04; see if you like it; even try KDE4 (Kubuntu), thats very fine.

Take a look at these pics, here is where we are (Classic):
http://files.cyberciti.biz/uploads/tips/2010/10/Ubuntu-Maverick-Desktop.png

And here is where we go (Unity):
https://myblogstarz.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/5.jpg

Here is an alternative (XFCE):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5633960541_e799e76783.jpg

And another (KDE):
http://img.entreadictos.cl/images/kubuntu110.jpg

Don't forget, Gnome(3) Shell:
http://www.botskool.com/sites/default/files/image/gnome-shell-5.jpg

What would be your CHOICE?

that's the older Gnome-Shell look. I am amazed how Gnome Shell started to look Unity like after Canonical began work........

phosphide
April 23rd, 2011, 03:12 AM
Can I have all of them? :)

forrestcupp
April 23rd, 2011, 03:13 AM
Nominated for Post Of The Year.
You should hold off on that. Next week I plan on writing a post where I release my long researched cure for cancer and AIDS. ;)

Hedgehog1
April 23rd, 2011, 04:30 AM
You should hold off on that. Next week I plan on writing a post where I release my long researched cure for cancer and AIDS. ;)

After your post, I will give you my acceptance speech to use. It is all typed up, and most of the words are spelled right. Just cross out the parts about "it's not easy begin green" and it should work for you fine. :D


The 'Runner Up' Hedge

:KS

Hedgehog1
April 23rd, 2011, 04:36 AM
Take a look at these pics, here is where we are (Classic):
http://files.cyberciti.biz/uploads/tips/2010/10/Ubuntu-Maverick-Desktop.png

And here is where we go (Unity):
https://myblogstarz.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/5.jpg

Here is an alternative (XFCE):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5633960541_e799e76783.jpg

And another (KDE):
http://img.entreadictos.cl/images/kubuntu110.jpg

Don't forget, Gnome(3) Shell:
http://www.botskool.com/sites/default/files/image/gnome-shell-5.jpg


Thanks for posting examples of each of the choices.

I have loaded and tested the 'other' three, and found things I did like about each.

But the real issue is:

Gnome 2.x is dead. Long live the new DE.


None of us (including Canonical) got a vote on that.


The Hedge

:KS

Giraffemonster
April 23rd, 2011, 05:00 AM
An interesting read, that's for sure. 10/10 Good stuff.

I haven't tried out the beta for 11.04, I'll just see what Unity's like once the upgrade happens. If I happen not to like it, I'll probably get the XFCE interface instead of going back to GNOME, just so I can have some fun with it and see what it's like.

alaukikyo
April 23rd, 2011, 05:05 AM
I am trying Unity on my PC with 23" screen. Some of the experts, who know enough to jump right in and make Unity perform to it's capabilities, make Unity sound wonderful. I am not one of those and hope for guides to help us average users feel comfortable.

Here's an awesome guide. http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity

alaukikyo
April 23rd, 2011, 06:16 AM
Ah, so THIS was the "philosophical" discussion the user in the other thread was referring to ;)

Lets see, different colored egg would be switching brown with purple, or moving the buttons to the left; pretty mild, psychological even.

BUT Unity AND Gnome Shell? Its like switching the DE completely. And in fact, thats what g
It is not even a Canonical decision, as some people seem to believe, Unity is nothing more than Canonical's reaction to the discontinuation of Gnome2 and its "Classic" shell. Even if Canonical were to stick to the new default Shell, as much damage (if not worse) would occur.

The real issue: Ubuntu 11.10 is changing its Desktop Environment; and there will be a defaulted preview of it in 11.04. But some other distros are already jumping to the completely different desktop environment that is Gnome3's new shell.

And in fact the situation does not allow for any form of continuation, short of Canonical truly forking gnome2 to maintain it (ala Trinity for KDE3), but they won't do it.

So the situation at hand is that we face a Desktop Environment change. We can only choose how deep the change will be, Canonical made a choice, other distros are making choices. Which is the less radical of the changes? XFCE, the default Desktop Environment in Xubuntu, which still uses gtk, and still handles gnome applets the usual way, and has the panels, a "start" menu, etc.

The only way you can stay with Gnome2 is to not upgrade, if not 11.04, very surely not to 11.10. 11.04 is the last one with Gnome2.

Do you really want to try the changes? go ahead, you can even install Unity in 10.10; and Gnome Shell in 11.04; see if you like it; even try KDE4 (Kubuntu), thats very fine.

Take a look at these pics, here is where we are (Classic):
http://files.cyberciti.biz/uploads/tips/2010/10/Ubuntu-Maverick-Desktop.png

And here is where we go (Unity):
https://myblogstarz.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/5.jpg

Here is an alternative (XFCE):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5633960541_e799e76783.jpg

And another (KDE):
http://img.entreadictos.cl/images/kubuntu110.jpg

Don't forget, Gnome(3) Shell:
http://www.botskool.com/sites/default/files/image/gnome-shell-5.jpg

What would be your CHOICE?


wrong screenshot for unity and gnome-shell .

Artemis3
April 23rd, 2011, 10:33 AM
wrong screenshot for unity and gnome-shell . You are welcome to post the "correct" ones...

neu5eeCh
April 23rd, 2011, 05:20 PM
Just because I think these pictures need to be quoted one more time... ](*,)




Take a look at these pics, here is where we are (Classic):
http://files.cyberciti.biz/uploads/tips/2010/10/Ubuntu-Maverick-Desktop.png

And here is where we go (Unity):
https://myblogstarz.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/5.jpg

Here is an alternative (XFCE):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5633960541_e799e76783.jpg

And another (KDE):
http://img.entreadictos.cl/images/kubuntu110.jpg

Don't forget, Gnome(3) Shell:
http://www.botskool.com/sites/default/files/image/gnome-shell-5.jpg

What would be your CHOICE?

el_koraco
April 23rd, 2011, 05:22 PM
lol

toupeiro
April 23rd, 2011, 06:39 PM
Why is it whenever someone doesn't like a decision Canonical has made with ubuntu, they automagically get met with all the "don't knock it till you try it" commentary. I spoke out on unity and issues to scale with desktops since its announcement, and I was met with the above and more. I've used unity in netbook versions and was assured how much better the desktop version is going to be. (Vaporware) Guess what, its not any better, at all. All the things I was worried about and tried to point out in any thread I've posted about Unity are still in the desktop version. Unity was not ready for mainstream desktop computer usage. I think there is a counter-culture in ubuntu development to GEAHS, it's called IDGAS (I Don't Give A ... figure out the last word) Developers do not take community feedback seriously. They are interested in fixing bugs, not function. I think it would do ubuntu devs good to be reminded about about bug 1, and everything it implies about ubuntu being the solution to that. IDGAS development will put you well on your way to making this OS exactly what it was intended not to be.

Artemis3
April 23rd, 2011, 08:26 PM
Haha, i just installed xubuntu-desktop and it was like 50mb download only ^_^ Wow this thing feels fast, it's been a while ;)

So now I'll start to carefully remove gnome fat using the psychocats list for package removal as base, and leave only the minimum required by the few gnome apps i still use.

Then my upgrade to 11.04 will be optimal with ubuntu-desktop out of the way...

Hedgehog1
April 23rd, 2011, 08:54 PM
Why is it whenever someone doesn't like a decision Canonical has made with ubuntu, they automagically get met with all the "don't knock it till you try it" commentary. I spoke out on unity and issues to scale with desktops since its announcement, and I was met with the above and more. I've used unity in netbook versions and was assured how much better the desktop version is going to be. (Vaporware) Guess what, its not any better, at all.

Will you be sticking to 10.10 or 10.04.02 LTS instead then? Those are both perfectly acceptable options. There is also Ubuntu Classic in Natty as another option. Natty's Ubuntu Classic with no Effects really REALLY screams since the build a few days ago.

The Unity you used before and the Unity now carried on Natty in the last few days are different animals; you are not required to use it. 10.04.02 will give you many years of faithful and familiar service; and that is not a bad thing at all.

Remember, however, that Gnome 2.x is dead. But we all have options, even in the *buntu 11.04 family: Kbuntu, Xbuntu. For those who are determined, there is even a Gnome-Shell 3.0 remix project running for 11.04.

I would like to take issue (in a kindly way) with this comment:

Developers do not take community feedback seriously. They are interested in fixing bugs, not function.

All of us: End users, the Ubuntu development team, the Fedora development team, the OpenSuse development team (and so on) are dealing with a major functionality change caused by the death of gnome 2.x. ALL these teams have been scrambling to deal with this change.

It is true that sometimes long term development goals will keep specific short term user feedback from being implemented. But it is wholly unfair and inaccurate to accuse them of not listening to user feedback.

OK - off my soap box.

The Hedge

:KS

Hedgehog1
April 25th, 2011, 12:39 AM
For those you use Virtual Box: There is a new version (4.0.6) that supports Natty with a minimum of setup hassle: http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/511/nattyinvbox.png

There is also now a Virtual Box 4.0.6 install that runs inside Natty (albeit with a 'dirty install warning, but it works fine):

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/3093/vboxinnatty.png


The Hedge

:KS

Hedgehog1
April 26th, 2011, 01:20 PM
This post has been moved to here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1741293

The Hedge

:KS

3Miro
April 26th, 2011, 01:50 PM
Great post, we should make this into a sticky or the HowTo page or signature or give people links to it or all of the above.

Hedgehog1
April 26th, 2011, 02:09 PM
Great post, we should make this into a sticky or the HowTo page or signature or give people links to it or all of the above.

I will repost in the install forum on 'Natty Day' along with a few others with nice pictures. This is really a preview for established users in this thread.

April 28th is getting CLOSER!!!

The Hedge

:KS

BrokenKingpin
April 26th, 2011, 05:39 PM
Cool analogy. Unfortunately I have gave Unity some extended use, and I just don't like it. Of course I will try it again on the final release later this week, but it really is the design principles that I do not like.

I much prefer XFCE and a standard panel, with something like DockBarX.

Hedgehog1
April 27th, 2011, 12:25 AM
Cool analogy. Unfortunately I have gave Unity some extended use, and I just don't like it. Of course I will try it again on the final release later this week, but it really is the design principles that I do not like.

I much prefer XFCE and a standard panel, with something like DockBarX.

XFCE is sweet! I have stumbled into using it as I load Gnome Shell 3.0 in Xbuntu and get 3 desktops: Xbunut, XFCE and Gnome Shell 3.0.

Xbuntu is a very nice distro that really deserves more notice!

In the end, you gave Unity a fair test (and plan to give it a second try); what more could a hedgehog ask?!?

The Hedge

:KS

tlcstat
April 27th, 2011, 04:04 AM
Greetings,
Original posted by The Hedge

In the end, you gave Unity a fair test (and plan to give it a second try); what more could a hedgehog ask?!?

+1 If both of us were the same, one of us wouldn't be needed!

PS I just got a 16meg update that lit a fire under my Unity. Immediately faster and smoother. Downloaded 10:30 PM New York Time. FYI

tlcstat

Hedgehog1
April 27th, 2011, 07:59 AM
PS I just got a 16meg update that lit a fire under my Unity. Immediately faster and smoother. Downloaded 10:30 PM New York Time. FYI

tlcstat

Cool - thanks for the tip. Things already smoothed out a lot last week on my systems; so this should be even better. :D

The Hedge

:KS

Rasa1111
April 27th, 2011, 08:39 AM
@ Hedgemeister.. lol

I saw your post in regards to using 11.04/Unity in Virtualmachine..
But my experience has been different.. lol

I can run 11.04 great in virtualmachine, but I cannot get Unity to run in it properly.

Only classic desktop works.

In the link you provided.. http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads
WHat has to be done with the .deb file after downloaded?

I am rather new to virtualmachine,
and have just recently figured out how to use it "normally"..
But Im not sure what to do with this .deb file for 11.04 in VM?

Thanks in advance.

You rock! <3

3Miro
April 27th, 2011, 11:01 AM
Virtual Box just had a new version out, Unity doesn't work with the old versions of Virtual Box, but it does with the new one (because of the different version of Xorg).

If you downloaded the correct .deb file, then you should just double-click on the file and install it. You should probably uninstall Virtual Box OSE if you have installed it from the Software Center.

Once you install Ubuntu 11.04 under Virtual Box, you will still be able to access only "classic" mode. You will need to add Virtual Box Guest Addons and enable 3D acceleration. Get the Virtual Box manual, it is a very clearly written one.

NormanFLinux
April 27th, 2011, 12:14 PM
Feh. 3D?

You can install the 2D Unity from PPA 2D Unity repository and get the UI without 3D acceleration. It should run fine in Virtual Box.

Aren't people aware a 2D version of Unity already exists?

Rasa1111
April 27th, 2011, 04:09 PM
Virtual Box just had a new version out, Unity doesn't work with the old versions of Virtual Box, but it does with the new one (because of the different version of Xorg).

If you downloaded the correct .deb file, then you should just double-click on the file and install it. You should probably uninstall Virtual Box OSE if you have installed it from the Software Center.

Once you install Ubuntu 11.04 under Virtual Box, you will still be able to access only "classic" mode. You will need to add Virtual Box Guest Addons and enable 3D acceleration. Get the Virtual Box manual, it is a very clearly written one.

Hey thanks,

I have the newest version, and also have 3d enabled and also have done the VB guest add ons, but everythime ive used the guest addons, it breaks the system and i dont know how to fix it but to reinstall.
DOne it to me 3 times now. lol

Not a big deal i guess, Just wondered if i was missing something simple.. lol

Also, yes Im aware Unity 2d exists,
but that was less than 'kosher' when I tried it. lol

Thanks though. :p

tlcstat
April 27th, 2011, 04:40 PM
Greetings,
From original OP.

If you have found yourself thinking ‘Unity just looks to different, I don’t like it’, you may already have been affected by GEAHS (Green Eggs And Ham Syndrome).


Hey! This Natty and Unity thing was fun! But I'm starting to get a bit bored. Is Oneiric Ocelot Beta out yet?

tlcstat
P.S. Gee! I wonder if the Mod will move this post to the Oneiric Ocelot testing thread!

NormanFLinux
April 27th, 2011, 04:45 PM
Oneiric Ocelot won't debut as Alpha until mid to late September.

tlcstat
April 27th, 2011, 04:58 PM
Greetings,


Oneiric Ocelot won't debut as Alpha until mid to late September.

Well! Guess I'll just have to spend some time messing with all of those extra settings in Compiz. Or maybe I'll just install that Slackware 13 disk on my extra partition and find out why those guys think they're so hot. Seems to me they had a pretty nice GUI for a bunch of command line people.
tlcstat

3Miro
April 27th, 2011, 05:09 PM
Hey thanks,

I have the newest version, and also have 3d enabled and also have done the VB guest add ons, but everythime ive used the guest addons, it breaks the system and i dont know how to fix it but to reinstall.
DOne it to me 3 times now. lol

Not a big deal i guess, Just wondered if i was missing something simple.. lol

Also, yes Im aware Unity 2d exists,
but that was less than 'kosher' when I tried it. lol

Thanks though. :p

1. Install VBox from the .deb.
2. Make a new virtual machine and install Ubuntu 11.04 (should boot just fine in Classic - No-effects mode). It is preferable to not use "automatic login" as it will try to go into Unity and it will not work yet.
3. Install the guest addons:
3.a) select Install Guest Addons from the Virtual Box windows (while 11.04 is running)
3.b) a CD will appear in 11.04, open it with Nautilus,
3.c) open a terminal, go to the CD folder (/media/....)
3.d) use "sudo sh VBoxGuestAddonsLinux...", or whatever the name of the script is. It will install the addons.
4. Shutdown the Virtual Mahcine.
5. Enable 3D effects from the Virtual Machine settings.
6. Check the amount of Video RAM that you are allocating, default is about 12MB, it may be too little. I don't know how much Unity uses, so give as much as you can, but be careful not to break your host (don't give it more than half of your real video RAM).
7. Boot the machine again and you should be able to use Unity.

This should work, if not, then you may have some special bug or I don't know what.

cariboo
April 27th, 2011, 05:39 PM
Oneiric Ocelot won't debut as Alpha until mid to late September.

Oneiric Ocelot Alpha 1 is schedule for release June 2nd, have a look at the release schedule here (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule)

NormanFLinux
April 27th, 2011, 05:44 PM
That early? Its going to be a huge amount of work to get it done by June.

Hedgehog1
April 28th, 2011, 04:52 AM
Greetings,
From original OP.


Hey! This Natty and Unity thing was fun! But I'm starting to get a bit bored. Is Oneiric Ocelot Beta out yet?

tlcstat
P.S. Gee! I wonder if the Mod will move this post to the Oneiric Ocelot testing thread!

I will have to change a few things before it can be recycled for 11.10. For all I know I will be talking 'devoted Unity' folks into trying 'Gnome Shell 3.0'.

We will have to wait and see what new things Ubuntu brings us, and how many folks freak out about THAT change.


The Hedge

:KS

alaukikyo
April 30th, 2011, 01:04 PM
You are welcome to post the "correct" ones...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Ubuntu_11.04.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/GNOME_Shell.png

sfyoung
May 14th, 2011, 06:50 PM
I wanted to like Unity because generally I like fresh, new things. But it didn't work on my Acer Netbook. I could get the Launcher to show up intermittently, but I couldn't follow the introductory examples in the 'Welcome to 11.04' applet because the examples referred to objects that didn't paint onto my screen. It was weird that moving my pointer to the left border of the screen only brought up the Launcher about 30% of the time. I like having a menu bar, taskbar, and terminal window, or at least an alternative way to run programs. I had to Ctrl-Alt-Backspace out of X to shutdown from the command line. I might give Unity a try again after it gets to where it will work on my system.