What's the point of locking off the archives "from public view"?

[Dustin2128]

It's still going to take up the same amount of space, right? I found a lot of my solutions in the archives, and I'm sure plenty of other people have.

[Joeb454]

Much of the information is out of date, and for unsupported versions of Ubuntu.

As you correctly state, it would take up the same amount of space, but this allows us to look at removing it in future if needs be.

[Dustin2128]

Why wouldn't you just slap a banner on it saying "advice may be out of date, may not work in current versions of ubuntu" if you're still going to have it on the server?

[bodhi.zazen]

It's still going to take up the same amount of space, right? I found a lot of my solutions in the archives, and I'm sure plenty of other people have.

It would be ideal, IMO, if some of this gems in the archives were converted from the Forums -> Ubuntu wiki.

wiki pages are easier to maintain.

[youbuntu]

I think we should put it to a vote - let your community decide :)

Just because advice is out of date, doesn't mean people will blindly follow it; you're talking to a massive collective of rather intelligent beings, not plonkers :lol: Why go through all the effort of Wiki-ising it, when it exists here, and can be read for prosperity and sentimental value even!

Please, shall we vote? :D

DON'T burn your legacy :(

[grahammechanical]

Hi glossywhite

you said


you're talking to a massive collective of rather intelligent beings, not plonkers

I am not so sure. Have you not noticed the mess that some people manage to get into? There should be an opening splash screen on the Live CD that says in large letters - Not for Plonkers.

Regards.

[kevdog]

I really think this is a bad idea -- unless the only problem is lack of server space -- however this would seem hardly plausible. The archives contain a wealth of information and it would be terrible to see this information "wiped out". Imagine if the library worked this way -- all books older than 40 years are to be removed from public view. What a mockery that would be!! In much the same way I believe removing the archives would be a waste. As a personal contributor to many tutorials in the past and with many of my tutorials now in the archive, I feel somewhat slighted given the time I put into the composition of the tutorials. The Ubuntu forums is built on community. To slight the members of this community in the name of "moderness" is in my opinion reprehensible. Yes wikis may be a better way to maintain the information, however that just adds another layer of work to the process that really no one has stepped up to the plate to do. From the date of the postings, it should be obvious to the end user that some of the information may be dated and not work completely, however many of the older tutorials often do it the "old" way. In most cases the "old" way is not sophisticated but it still works. Try switching to an android device for example and messing with the wireless driver from the command line -- same way in Ubuntu as in android if the wireless tools extension commands are strictly obeyed.

I think I've made my point -- for whatever good it does??!

[Chimes]

many a times in linux my hide has been saved by some ten year old tutorial that definitely wasn't up-to-date, but was the only thing anyone had written on my problem. Maybe it was my specific hardware because I didn't have the newest computer, or some unlucky hardware or software combination, or something even more arcane like a specific programming bug. Most bugs have the same cause and solutions now as they did years ago, but there are a lot of really obscure problems out there.

That said, I'm cool with the cafe's posts being archived. God knows we don't need all those details about our personal lives hanging out like dirty laundry for our grandkids to read. :D

[Philsoki]

That said, I'm cool with the cafe's posts being archived. God knows we don't need all those details about our personal lives hanging out like dirty laundry for our grandkids to read. :D
Are you kidding?! The cafe archives must be forever preserved!:P

[LewRockwellFAN]

I really wish you wouldn't do this. Make it harder to get to if you feel you must. Add a gateway of some sort that requires reading a disclaimer and points to search for the current forum perhaps. You could even make it a separate site if you think you have to. I don't see any need to change it at all really. I've found worthwhile material in the archives frequently. I hope they remain open to google's bot and to us meat people. They CAN'T take up that much space; they are essentially just glorified text files, right?

Of course, it's your hardware, your bandwidth, your money. So I don't presume to tell you what to do. But I wish I could convince you this would not be at all nice of you.

[3Miro]

Just because advice is out of date, doesn't mean people will blindly follow it; you're talking to a massive collective of rather intelligent beings, not plonkers :lol: Why go through all the effort of Wiki-ising it, when it exists here, and can be read for prosperity and sentimental value even!


I have seen this plenty of times, people don't look at dates and try to do wrong things for obsolete versions of Ubuntu.

[Joeb454]

I have added a poll to this thread, for users to show what they would prefer. The poll closes on April 28th, and we can see what the results are before taking any action.

[bodhi.zazen]

I think we should put it to a vote - let your community decide :)

Just because advice is out of date, doesn't mean people will blindly follow it; you're talking to a massive collective of rather intelligent beings, not plonkers :lol: Why go through all the effort of Wiki-ising it, when it exists here, and can be read for prosperity and sentimental value even!

Please, shall we vote? :D

DON'T burn your legacy :(


I have seen this plenty of times, people don't look at dates and try to do wrong things for obsolete versions of Ubuntu.

It is a mixed bag, some advice is "timeless" , some is dated.

I think the general point of a forums though is living breathing conversations.

Good technical advice should be moved from the forums to the wiki.

glossywhite (and others) I highly suggest you learn to use the Ubuntu wiki and help with the transcription of quality advice on the forums, the wiki is community maintained, by people like you who are interested in preserving quality advice.

So yes, my advice is for you to become more involved in the community ;)

[KiwiNZ]

I think we should put it to a vote - let your community decide :)

Just because advice is out of date, doesn't mean people will blindly follow it; you're talking to a massive collective of rather intelligent beings, not plonkers :lol: Why go through all the effort of Wiki-ising it, when it exists here, and can be read for prosperity and sentimental value even!

Please, shall we vote? :D

DON'T burn your legacy :(

Yes this is a community, but remember all the resources are provided and funded by Canonical Limited. There is no free ride, and for everything there is a cost, and for every choice that has been taken there is a reason, and in this case it is for the best distribution of resources.

[SoFl W]

One of the reasons I joined the forums was because of the useful information I found in the archives.

[kn0w-b1nary]

It would be ideal, IMO, if some of this gems in the archives were converted from the Forums -> Ubuntu wiki.

wiki pages are easier to maintain.

I agree most with this. I've only found one solution from the archives, the rest were invalid.

[Grenage]

Wiki pages are more logical, easy to maintain, and easier to navigate; that said...

A good chunk of the problems encountered are not version (or distro) specific, and can still be valid. When I was starting to use Linux, Google search results often lead me to some ancient Ubuntu forums post which held the answer.

I personally think that an 'Archive: may not be current-version applicable' banner fits the bill. Some people will just blindly mash commands they see into a terminal, without reading the text that comes with it; that's going to happen regardless - you can't save people from themselves.

[castrojo]

I really think this is a bad idea -- unless the only problem is lack of server space -- however this would seem hardly plausible. The archives contain a wealth of information and it would be terrible to see this information "wiped out". Imagine if the library worked this way -- all books older than 40 years are to be removed from public view. What a mockery that would be!!

Right, but if I walk into a library and walk into the Astronomy section and the encyclopedia says "Some day we might even walk on the moon!" then that wouldn't be very useful.

If anything the old information hurts users because they break their computers, I can't count the number of times someone has asked me to look at their laptop because they followed some bad advice from an old thread that didn't make sense. And on top of that, I can't even fix the articles myself, at least on the wiki I can look at it and remove the old out of date junk.

[youbuntu]

If you get the general feeling that you'll please more people (and let's face it, do no harm, only save work) by leaving them there, then why not leave them there?

Kiwinz, I read some mumblings about money or something... I don't quite get what the point is you're making? How is money related to static archives which are already there? Please clarify, removing money from the debate. :)

No offence, but I feel your reason for not doing it is rather vague - maybe because it has no real logic or cost saving to it.

Here is a very good reason: prosperity!

I do sincerely hope that the outcome of the vote is acted upon directly, in a simple manner:

Yes, keep them = they stay

No, lose them = they go

thanks :)

[Icehuck]

If you get the general feeling that you'll please more people (and let's face it, do no harm, only save work) by leaving them there, then why not leave them there?

Kiwinz, I read some mumblings about money or something... I don't quite get what the point is you're making? How is money related to static archives which are already there? Please clarify, removing money from the debate. :)

No offence, but I feel your reason for not doing it is rather vague - maybe because it has no real logic or cost saving to it.

Here is a very good reason: prosperity!

I do sincerely hope that the outcome of the vote is acted upon directly, in a simple manner:

Yes, keep them = they stay

No, lose them = they go

thanks :)

They already had to upgrade the servers for ubuntu forums, which costs $$$$$$$, and not putting policies which would curb the need to upgrade for a while doesn't fix the problem.

[KiwiNZ]

If you get the general feeling that you'll please more people (and let's face it, do no harm, only save work) by leaving them there, then why not leave them there?

Kiwinz, I read some mumblings about money or something... I don't quite get what the point is you're making? How is money related to static archives which are already there? Please clarify, removing money from the debate. :)

No offence, but I feel your reason for not doing it is rather vague - maybe because it has no real logic or cost saving to it.

Here is a very good reason: prosperity!

I do sincerely hope that the outcome of the vote is acted upon directly, in a simple manner:

Yes, keep them = they stay

No, lose them = they go

thanks :)

When you learn a little about managing servers, load sharing and load balancing. Resource management without emotion come back and talk to to me.

[k3lt01]

I don't post often now but I must say if you are going to lock or remove the archives then why would you give people free reign to post gibberish in the cafe. This forum needs to figure out if it a help forum, and yes there is some decent advice still in the archives, or a playground for people who prefer a cafe latte.

If it's a money issue or a load serving issue then wouldn't it be logical to remove something that has no intrinsic value to learning how to use Ubuntu and seeing how it developed over time rather than to remove the archives which do have intrinsic value?

[youbuntu]

When you learn a little about managing servers, load sharing and load balancing. Resource management without emotion come back and talk to to me.

I think you're trying to cause an argument. I'm not responding to anything further from you, from hereon. I know plenty about load balancing and servers.

Please, you evidently dislike any communication with me, so may I advise that none is continued?

Thanks

[youbuntu]

I don't post often now but I must say if you are going to lock or remove the archives then why would you give people free reign to post gibberish in the cafe. This forum needs to figure out if it a help forum, and yes there is some decent advice still in the archives, or a playground for people who prefer a cafe latte.

If it's a money issue or a load serving issue then wouldn't it be logical to remove something that has no intrinsic value to learning how to use Ubuntu and seeing how it developed over time rather than to remove the archives which do have intrinsic value?

This ^

[youngfool]

Why wouldn't you just slap a banner on it saying "advice may be out of date, may not work in current versions of ubuntu" if you're still going to have it on the server?
I completely agree.

[laugh1]

No no no no no! Don't do it, I use the info there all the time.

[handy]

What size are the archives?

These days with the price of HDD's the storage space shouldn't be a problem, & the added time/cost of keeping that amount of space backed up also shouldn't really be a bone of contention. Nor should the stress put on the servers due to searches, as they won't be a searched that often.

I too have stuff in the archives that I reference from time to time & the there are how-to's & reviews that I have written hiding in there. Some of which won't be effected by the age of systems/software/hardware for quite some time.

When it comes to adding stuff to the Ubuntu wiki, one of the problems that I see is that someone gets to make the decision for the rest of us as to what is valuable & what is not.

Also, some of what is valuable has nothing to do with Ubuntu.

I think that the archives should be deleted on the first of January 2020.

[jmore9]

One idea would be to bzip it up and have it viewable only via download. Of course some kind of simple , separate index would be needed.

It would still take up some space , but the data would be there if needed by someone.

Just because some people have new and better hardware and high speed connections doesn't mean everyone does and they may be able to find the enclosed data useful.

Just a thought

[themarker0]

Hi! Why not split the database, merge it to a smaller software, and run it as either a static site, or just add to its database yearly?

I find a lot of program related fixes there. I actually hardly ever find correct fixes in the correct forums.

[bodhi.zazen]

When it comes to adding stuff to the Ubuntu wiki, one of the problems that I see is that someone gets to make the decision for the rest of us as to what is valuable & what is not.

I think you misunderstand the "community" wiki pages. The community pages are maintained by users, like you.

You get to decide what information is important and you get to move it to the wiki.

There are many advantages of using the wiki format over using the forums.

I would venture to guess that I search the Ubuntu pages as much as anyone, and honestly, it is rare to find information limited to the archives.

The archives are a mixed bag, and while yes there is some information of value in the archives, there is a lot of outdated information as well. Some of the information applies to versions of Ubuntu that are no longer supported and problems or bugs that no longer exist.

I think we all need to understand that at some point the archives will no longer be available in it's current format.

The solution I am advocating is for better integration between the forms and the rest of the community and to move valuable information to the wiki.

If you value the information in the archives I suggest you become more involved, specifically with the community wiki.

If you need assistance in becoming more involved, the Ubuntu Beginners Team can help ;)

[ayenack]

I voted no in the poll by mistake meant to vote yes. Doh.

There are some gems in the archives and if these could be covered on the WIKI then I see no reason for keeping the archives.

Also the archive can only grow so the forums will eventually end up as an archive more than a forum site which I don't think is appropriate for Ubuntu Forums.

I would have thought that anything that's a gem in the archive will be out on the net somewhere... most likely on one of the how-to sites. A lot of tutorials and solutions are a bringing together of different post or tutorials into one after all.

[youbuntu]

This is an official request. If you can somehow compress the ENTIRE archive, I'll index it and host it :-)

Is that possible?

Alternatively, I could make it available on DVD...

:D

http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20041106020021/http://www.ubuntuforums.org/

Whoah, theme!

http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20041230030932/http://www.ubuntuforums.org/

[handy]

So the Ubuntu wiki would be happy to accept information about IPCop, Copfilter, the sourcing & use of otherwise redundant hardware for purposes such as building non-Ubuntu headless firewalls & BSD based NAS systems?

[inobe]

i say do away with them.

they caused nothing but grief to thousands of new users.

everyone seems to be thinking of themselves!

[Naggobot]

Could "not public" here be defined as "visible only to forum members" for a period of limited time say for example two years. This would allow us to transfer relevant information to new threads and possibly even Wikis.

I agree on both that I have my self used ages old stuff from old threads and at the same time I hate how those ages old threads turn up on my Google searches.

Improve upon the system. Remove archived threads from public Google searches but leave them visible to forum members. Add a "poll" to each archived thread where any registered user may mark the tread as "obsolete" and if more than n users vote that the tread is obsolete then remove it from view completely.

[bodhi.zazen]

So the Ubuntu wiki would be happy to accept information about IPCop, Copfilter, the sourcing & use of otherwise redundant hardware for purposes such as building non-Ubuntu headless firewalls & BSD based NAS systems?

You are free to ask them:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/

On the forums we try to keep the support information (both questions and answers) Ubuntu related. We try to direct Windows questions to windows forums, Fedora questions to Fedora forums, etc.

If you wish to document of IPCop or the BSD projects I would encourage you to use the appropriate resources.

If you wish to create a page on using Ubuntu as a firewall / router, or using iptables or ufw / gufw on Ubuntu then use the Ubuntu wiki.

[ayenack]

So the Ubuntu wiki would be happy to accept information about IPCop, Copfilter, the sourcing & use of otherwise redundant hardware for purposes such as building non-Ubuntu headless firewalls & BSD based NAS systems?

I wouldn't have thought so.

There are a thousand and one tutorials on building all manner of headless servers of all sorts and there are tutorials for Firewalls, NAS, IPCop, copfilter etc.

There's also FreeNAS which is based on BSD.

There's also plenty of sites on using old hardware for servers of all kinds.

[bodhi.zazen]

Could "not public" here be defined as "visible only to forum members" for a period of limited time say for example two years. This would allow us to transfer relevant information to new threads and possibly even Wikis.

I agree on both that I have my self used ages old stuff from old threads and at the same time I hate how those ages old threads turn up on my Google searches.

Improve upon the system. Remove archived threads from public Google searches but leave them visible to forum members. Add a "poll" to each archived thread where any registered user may mark the tread as "obsolete" and if more than n users vote that the tread is obsolete then remove it from view completely.

As I have said many times, I suggest you get involved with the wiki team now, a 2 year delay seems unlikely / unrealistic.

[handy]

This is an official request. If you can somehow compress the ENTIRE archive, I'll index it and host it :-)

Is that possible?

Alternatively, I could make it available on DVD...

@glossywhite: You would index it?


If Canonical made the archives available in a downloadable & easily accessible format, so that it could be searched & used by those that have the desire then I would be in favour of that.

& it would be great if the likes of glossywhite also hosted the archives so that those that don't have fast enough internet speeds to enable them to download the archives, would still be able to access the archives when desired.

Again I ask, what size are the archives?

I doubt that they are too big. If someone indexes them, I'll host them also.

I'm sure that there are a number of people who, (providing the archives are available to us in a format that requires little work from us & easy access to the user) would be happy to be hosts.

[handy]

i say do away with them.

they caused nothing but grief to thousands of new users.

everyone seems to be thinking of themselves!

Of course, you know how it is. :P

[malspa]

I'm getting the impression that they'll remain locked from public view. Doesn't matter what suggestions are made, doesn't matter what the results of this "poll" are.

[ayenack]

@glossywhite:

Again I ask, what size are the archives?

I doubt that they are too big. If someone indexes them, I'll host them also.

I'm sure that there are a number of people who, (providing the archives are available to us in a format that requires little work from us & easy access to the user) would be happy to be hosts.

I don't think the size is the problem it's more likely to be the amount of hits it'd get.

It'd take some hosting I'd have thought.

[youbuntu]

I haz terabit serverz ^_^

It should be available as a download, at the very least.

[ayenack]

terabit EMmmmm.... LOL. :D

[handy]

You are free to ask them:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/


Good answer. :)



On the forums we try to keep the support information (both questions and answers) Ubuntu related. We try to direct Windows questions to windows forums, Fedora questions to Fedora forums, etc.

If you wish to document of IPCop or the BSD projects I would encourage you to use the appropriate resources.

If you wish to create a page on using Ubuntu as a firewall / router, or using iptables or ufw / gufw on Ubuntu then use the Ubuntu wiki.

I understand all of that.


One of the things that I have really enjoyed about the Ubuntu Forums, is the community.

The times when I have been involved in discussions about using old hardware for non-Ubuntu computer tasks, & how to solve problems with FreeNAS or IPCop as examples, have been fantastic. The community here being so large, has the most incredible knowledge base as I know you appreciate as much as anyone else.

That stuff, is what makes the Ubuntu community.

It is the extension beyond the fixing of Ubuntu system problems that to me at least is what defines & creates that indefinable quality that is community, in this instance that the Ubuntu community.

Which as far as I'm concerned is the most valuable asset that Ubuntu has.

Many of us (not as many as there used to be after the closing of some sub-forums in times gone by) don't even use Ubuntu. But we still contribute (some more than others of course) to the community. This is because we value it highly.

There is heart here.

[handy]

I wouldn't have thought so.

There are a thousand and one tutorials on building all manner of headless servers of all sorts and there are tutorials for Firewalls, NAS, IPCop, copfilter etc.

There's also FreeNAS which is based on BSD.

There's also plenty of sites on using old hardware for servers of all kinds.

I know that. But I have written from extensively on those subjects from personal experience. That stuff is mostly in the archives.

When you write about it in such a fashion on a forum, you get Q&A, you can help others through problems that you have solved & they can help you in the same way.

It also is a part of the bonding that goes on in forums between people that are regulars which goes towards creating & strengthening that indefinable quality of community.

I know, I move from concrete to abstract quite quickly & very often. :)

[bodhi.zazen]

I'm getting the impression that they'll remain locked from public view. Doesn't matter what suggestions are made, doesn't matter what the results of this "poll" are.

This ^^

At some point old posts become obsolete. IMO, Forums are intended to be discussions, not documentation.

Almost every forums I have ever seen has the idea of "Necromancy", there comes a time to let the old discussions go.

The intention of this thread, IMO, was to give notice that the time is coming to the Ubuntu forums and moving forward we will likely develop a more regular method of archiving old post, and at some point removing the archives.

That is not to say there is no role for discussion, but I think the discussion need to be more along the lines of when to create archives (every 6 months as previous version of Ubuntu reach EOL), and when to remove archived posts from public view.

Moving forward, it is not likely to be a discussion of if we should or should not remove archives, but rather :

1. How to proceed with an orderly plan of archives -> removal.

2. How to encourage people to use the Wiki to post long ranging information.

[handy]

I don't think the size is the problem it's more likely to be the amount of hits it'd get.

It'd take some hosting I'd have thought.

I have an unlimited account. I don't really think that it would be a heavy load to carry, & it would basically be an ever diminishing one as well.


I haz terabit serverz ^_^

It should be available as a download, at the very least.

I agree.

If nothing else, if it is decided that the archives will be deleted, we should get a copy of them out in the wild for better or worse.

That way they will be available one way or another for those that value them enough to do something about it.

[handy]

@bodhi.zazen: It sounds like there is no two ways to it the archives will be deleted.

So the question is, can we get a copy of them before they are vaporised?

[ayenack]

I know that. But I have written from extensively on those subjects from personal experience. That stuff is mostly in the archives.

When you write about it in such a fashion on a forum, you get Q&A, you can help others through problems that you have solved & they can help you in the same way.

It also is a part of the bonding that goes on in forums between people that are regulars which goes towards creating & strengthening that indefinable quality of community.

I know, I move from concrete to abstract quite quickly & very often. :)

I do sympathize with your point of view but the site is a forum and not an archive.

I also think that much of the bonding between posters happens on live threads. I would agree that the archives create a sense of history and give a depth to the forums but it's about keeping the forums manageable and trying not to use up to much server resource.

I think a six month turnover for the archive would be reasonable as bodhi.zazen posted.

[inobe]

Moving forward, it is not likely to be a discussion of if we should or should not remove archives, but rather :

1. How to proceed with an orderly plan of archives -> removal.

2. How to encourage people to use the Wiki to post long ranging information.

start zapping anything from the beginning up to 7.04 Feisty Fawn 2007, and don't look back.

the rest can be sorted easier without all that baggage.

the wiki can be pinned and tagged accordingly.

[ayenack]

@bodhi.zazen: It sounds like there is no two ways to it the archives will be deleted.

So the question is, can we get a copy of them before they are vaporised?

There's a program in the repo's called httrack that can be used to download whole sites and just sections of sites. You could install it and and point it at the archive download them and keep them as a personal archive. There's also proxytrack which can be used to proxy it.

Hope it helps you out.

Not sure about the legality of it forums have to comply with data protection and other stuff so you'd probably have to get permission to host it on a proxy.

[bodhi.zazen]

@bodhi.zazen: It sounds like there is no two ways to it the archives will be deleted.

So the question is, can we get a copy of them before they are vaporised?

Hosting an archives is frankly beyond the scope of this thread and would need to be discussed in more detail, both by the Forums Council, but ultimately is likely to be a decision made by Canonical.

[cariboo]

There's a program in the repo's called httrack that can be used to download whole sites and just sections of sites. You could install it and and point it at the archive download them and keep them as a personal archive. There's also proxytrack which can be used to proxy it.

Hope it helps you out.

Not sure about the legality of it forums have to comply with data protection and other stuff so you'd probably have to get permission to host it on a proxy.

Back when we were having database server problems, we were told the database was 145GB+, so it may take a while to download everything. :)

[ayenack]

Back when we were having database server problems, we were told the database was 145GB+, so it may take a while to download everything. :)

:o That's a lot of beans. :)

[charliemagiera]

While not entirely new to Ubuntu, I have found a lot of information in the forums that have helped. Even some of the out-of-date information has given me a relative platform to start my troubleshooting process. However, I do think that some of the much older - I mean prior to 7.x things - could stand to go the way of the Do-Do.

[handy]

I do sympathize with your point of view but the site is a forum and not an archive.

I also think that much of the bonding between posters happens on live threads. I would agree that the archives create a sense of history and give a depth to the forums but it's about keeping the forums manageable and trying not to use up to much server resource.

I think a six month turnover for the archive would be reasonable as bodhi.zazen posted.

The problem is that some of the information is incredibly valuable reference material. To the point of being step by step how-to's.

Some of those threads go on for many pages, garnering more in depth knowledge as they go.

I grabbed some of my Arch how-to's from the original Other OS Talk sub-forum here after it was closed & posted them on other sites which have all closed.

This is why I made spiralinear.org happen, it is a place where I know our data is backed up, well maintained & safe due to the efforts of the highly skilled technical team.

It also has IPCop, FreeNAS & other material much of which is at least based on my posts that are in the archives here.

There is certainly plenty of info' that is independent from that which has come from the archives.

To sum up this rant, if Ubuntu forums deletes everything that reaches an age of 6 months, it will lose an incredible wealth of information.

What is the strategy to keep this information in play?

What about the information that is incredibly valuable but does not relate to Ubuntu specifically?

When you cut these things out, you also cut a sizeable chunk out of the heart of your community. This was obvious firstly when The Backyard sub-forum was closed & then again when the original Other OS Talk sub-forum was closed.

Many long time contributors left & never returned. Many of them were highly skilled & long time Linux users, quite a few had many thousands of beans due to their contributions in the technical assistance forums.

When the common reason that made them a part of this community was removed, they left, & therefore stopped contributing to it.

Community is a quality, & as such it is incredibly hard to accurately define & quantify. Because of these seemingly invisible qualities it is so easy to overlook its value & to damage it. Once damaged it is incredibly difficult to repair as you can't see where to put the band-aid.

This is a dilemma that has been faced before by Canonical & it looks like we are facing it once again to some degree.

Very tricky business.

[handy]

Back when we were having database server problems, we were told the database was 145GB+, so it may take a while to download everything. :)

That's the entire forum I take it.

Does anyone know how big the archives are? :)

[unknownPoster]

I know plenty about load balancing and servers.



I doubt that considering that you don't seem to understand the logistical nightmare of maintaining a forum such as UF.

Even after load balancing features were added a while back, UF still had problems.

Any sort of effort to alleviate the issue, even if it involves removing a significant portion of old outdated and largely insignificant threads is a good move in my opinion.

[deathadder]

I think another month or 2 should be given so that people can throw anything they want from the archives into a wiki page. After that the archives should go, they do contain some useful information but can land new users in boat loads of trouble. For that reason alone I'm voting "Yes" they should be removed.

[zer010]

Even though the information might be technically "dated", I have often found some obscure tips and tricks in the archives from a well worded google search.
Edit: It seems that the demise of the Archives is eminent so I would like to to reset my vote to a vote of "yes" to a vote of "present".
With the changes that are occurring with Ubuntu, I guess most of the information will truly be out of date...

[lisati]

If there's something I've noticed over the years, it's that the amount of data I wish to store easily expands to exceed the storage I have available. Deciding whether to retain or remove something isn't always an easy task.

[Claus7]

Dear ubuntu forum community,

I have read with great interest -under the Community Cafe Section of the ubuntu forums- the entire thread, concerning the removal of archives from public view.

Since everything that entails the word removal is a serious task, I would be grateful if you could give me some information about it.

1) Would you be more specific on what you mean with the word archives? I do know that it refers to files, and that there are some threads that are referred as "only read archives". So, is there any date related to those files going to be removed? Or maybe a general category these archives belong to?

2) Does this "from public view" string mean that these will be removed only from the results posted from search machines a.k.a internet search engines or wiped out entirely?

My experience belongs to those persons that consult ubuntu forums for issues even way back than 2007 posts which are valid even these days. The "rm -rf thread" command would require a lot of work from me to gather all the necessary information and keep them for future reference. I'm making this remark, because on that thread are stated things about full removal of these(?) archives. I hope that there is enough time (till end of April) that this information will remain intact.

Thank you beforehand for your time,
Regards!

[wolfger]

Just remove the forums entirely. It's not like anybody uses them. :popcorn:

[Technoviking]

The info in the archive applies to unsupported versions of Ubuntu for the most part. I think removing it is the best idea.

T-V

[wweeks]

How much space is it taking up? Is there away you could just 7-zip it all up and let people download it to archive it?

[youbuntu]

This is a ridiculous idea, if looking at it merely from the perspective of the data being out of date. So, in that frame of mind, we should all go to our local libraries, and burn ALL BOOKS containing technical documentation not relating to modern technology, right?

Preposterous.

As has been suggested, numerous times, notices could be installed which clearly state that the information relates to VERY old Ubuntu editions, etc. You're deleting the very history of a VERY valuable community & resource pool. I dislike the cavalier attitude that this data is simply "old, and therefore disposable".

This is the whole problem with a lot of the modern world - just because data doesn't directly apply to modern life, it is dismissed and/or discarded. Learn to respect the very roots from which Ubuntu has grown, and value the learning process (including all the hair tearing and tears) because it is why we are where we're at, now!

I hope you make the right decision...

[handy]

I think(?) & hope, that the forum administration is considering whether to make the archives available in a downloadable format. (At least temporarily.)

If they do that & give permission for people to host the archives then that will allow them to delete them & still have them available from other sources on the web.

As time goes by the archives will become completely redundant & even if they are hosted by a number of people on the web they will still just gradually disappear from the web due to their perpetually diminishing usefulness.

[red_Marvin]

While the ubuntu version they are written for may be obsolete, it is sometimes
the only available information on a certain type of problem (hw or sw)
and because of this full non-selective removal is detrimental.

Selective removal may not be feasible either, so I think that preserving it in some
way or another is the best solution. I understand that the forum may want to use
the storage and bandwidth for more recent data, so think that making some sort of archive available
for download (as already posted) would be the best solution.

As (also said,) the file would be quite big, maybe it could be split up into the different forum sections.
Also, instead of a one site download, maybe torrents would be an option?
I assume that your problem has more to do with bandwidth than storage, so apart from seeding,
(which you could throttle until your bandwith limit is met) you would only need to
host the checksums.

[Dojan]

Many people find the forums when googleing something or other, and often end up in the archives. I know I did...
This of course has pros and cons though.

[bodhi.zazen]

This is a ridiculous idea, if looking at it merely from the perspective of the data being out of date. So, in that frame of mind, we should all go to our local libraries, and burn ALL BOOKS containing technical documentation not relating to modern technology, right?

We are not a library, the wiki is the preferred format to archive such information.

[Thewhistlingwind]

Theres a significant difference between removing information because it is possibly (Or even quite likely) out of date, and removing information because it's technically inefficient to host it.

In the case of the former:

It is stated in the terms and conditions that there is no "right" to freedom of speech (Or anything for that matter.) here, so in terms of what can be expected from the administrators, their not violating any promises. Of course, that still doesn't necessarily make it right to remove the archives, there is a lot of obscure information buried within. (As has been pointed out, some issues have been fixed once in say, 2006, and never again.) And there just isn't enough time to archive the juicy bits in the wiki. Delays are not acceptable, as they only prolong the problem, one poster suggested a two year delay, and as was promptly pointed out, if the want to remove them NOW, then there not going to wait even near that long.

In the case of the latter:

I'm more sure that this is the real issue, the archives cost money to maintain, and it's money that the staff don't have or want to spend. Which is fine, however as I pointed out above, were still losing a lot of useful data (And a lot of trash) by dumping the archives. If the staff don't WANT to remove them now, but NEED to remove them now, then delays are probably out of the question. I agree with other posters that a potential solution would be to offer a temporary download of the archives, the terms and conditions state that the websites content is under a creative commons license, and thus free to mirror, but as has been mentioned, the archives may in fact be quite large, and will "take a while to download". In addition, one must consider the costs of actually delivering the content of the archives over the net, if the problem is bandwidth (I'm sure it's not storage, storage is cheap.) then I'm not sure that encouraging a dozen 100+ GB downloads from the server is the best solution.

Another idea is a torrent, where the admins could limit the amount of data transferred over the net, but of course, that only heightens the earlier problem that this could "take a while" at that point you may be looking at a week long download. That'd be a hard connection to maintain I'd like to think. To help alleviate this, we could, as suggested, break the download into parts, like by forum sub category, this would make the transfers much more reasonable. To conclude, I would love to see a download of the archives go up before their wiped, as to me it would seem if people want to try and find the diamonds in the rough, it's be easier on their time and money, and not the staffs.

[youbuntu]

Theres a significant difference between removing information because it is possibly (Or even quite likely) out of date, and removing information because it's technically inefficient to host it.

In the case of the former:

It is stated in the terms and conditions that there is no "right" to freedom of speech (Or anything for that matter.) here, so in terms of what can be expected from the administrators, their not violating any promises. Of course, that still doesn't necessarily make it right to remove the archives, there is a lot of obscure information buried within. (As has been pointed out, some issues have been fixed once in say, 2006, and never again.) And there just isn't enough time to archive the juicy bits in the wiki. Delays are not acceptable, as they only prolong the problem, one poster suggested a two year delay, and as was promptly pointed out, if the want to remove them NOW, then there not going to wait even near that long.

In the case of the latter:

I'm more sure that this is the real issue, the archives cost money to maintain, and it's money that the staff don't have or want to spend. Which is fine, however as I pointed out above, were still losing a lot of useful data (And a lot of trash) by dumping the archives. If the staff don't WANT to remove them now, but NEED to remove them now, then delays are probably out of the question. I agree with other posters that a potential solution would be to offer a temporary download of the archives, the terms and conditions state that the websites content is under a creative commons license, and thus free to mirror, but as has been mentioned, the archives may in fact be quite large, and will "take a while to download". In addition, one must consider the costs of actually delivering the content of the archives over the net, if the problem is bandwidth (I'm sure it's not storage, storage is cheap.) then I'm not sure that encouraging a dozen 100+ GB downloads from the server is the best solution.

Another idea is a torrent, where the admins could limit the amount of data transferred over the net, but of course, that only heightens the earlier problem that this could "take a while" at that point you may be looking at a week long download. That'd be a hard connection to maintain I'd like to think. To help alleviate this, we could, as suggested, break the download into parts, like by forum sub category, this would make the transfers much more reasonable. To conclude, I would love to see a download of the archives go up before their wiped, as to me it would seem if people want to try and find the diamonds in the rough, it's be easier on their time and money, and not the staffs.

hear hear :)

[MichealH]

I think the vote is a little obvious right now, but I am on par with this, yes old gems have been here before and have helped me alot, while some have just helped me for a older Ubuntu Version. I sort of agree bot ways, the wiki is easier to maintain, while the forums just 'feels right' to have them here.

[wojox]

The info in the archive applies to unsupported versions of Ubuntu for the most part. I think removing it is the best idea.

T-V

Exactly, once it becomes EOL it should be. I voted "yes". You know how many times I've had to explain to a user that the post is from 2006 and we do it like this now?

[ubudog]

IMO, I think it's a bad idea. Maybe removing super out of date threads (like threads involving Warty, etc... maybe up to 7.10?)

Just my opinion. Would hate to see them get completely removed...

[KiwiNZ]

Ubuntu Forums are owned and operated by Canonical. They are the Official Support Forums for Ubuntu.

During the Lifecycle of a Ubuntu Release it eventually reaches end of life and becomes unsupported, therefore it is appropriate that that these Forums follow that life cycle.

We need to manage the Forums to provide timely reliable support for the "live" releases. Recent experiences has demonstrated how fragile that can become.

If someone chooses to remain on an unsupported older release then they need to take responsibility themselves for the support of their OS. Ubuntu Forums responsibility is to those users with current live releases.

[perspectoff]

Heck, about 1/3 of the advice people post on these forums every day are long outdated because it is stuff the posters have been doing for years (and have never bothered to learn easier, newer methods).

Contrariwise, there are people who always post alpha solutions that only work for a small subset of users.

Unless all the solutions are visible, people can't judge for themselves what is likely to work and what is too much trouble.

That's the whole idea of "open source."

When you close or hide forums, the next thing is to hide or close code.

As it is, I hate it when Ubuntu makes things so "modern" and "simplified" so that I can no longer do the things that I used to do. (Heck, if I wanted that I'd go get an Apple or Windows computer and learn to drink to mask the fact that I couldn't really do anything anymore on my computer, even if it looks fancy.)

I saw a post the other day from someone still using Hoary Hedgehog. Why?

Because it still works for them and they have neither the time nor inclination to go through a lot of work to update.

To tell the truth, I also don't like to update every 6 months, anymore, either. Every new release has new bugs and problems that can take up to 6 months to resolve (if ever, e.g. Network Manager and Plymouth).

I still have a number of clients using Hardy Heron (desktop support ending next week). Even going from Hardy to Lucid is a tremendous lot of work (especially when databases between the versions are not compatible).

Those clients still need advice from the archives periodically.

[KiwiNZ]

When you close or hide forums, the next thing is to hide or close code.



You are kidding yes?

[perspectoff]

Ubuntu Forums are owned and operated by Canonical. They are the Official Support Forums for Ubuntu.

During the Lifecycle of a Ubuntu Release it eventually reaches end of life and becomes unsupported, therefore it is appropriate that that these Forums follow that life cycle.

We need to manage the Forums to provide timely reliable support for the "live" releases. Recent experiences has demonstrated how fragile that can become.

If someone chooses to remain on an unsupported older release then they need to take responsibility themselves for the support of their OS. Ubuntu Forums responsibility is to those users with current live releases.

Echoes of Microsoft ending support for Windows XP. XP still has 50% of the OS market, especially in the business community. Microsoft had to back off, and XP is now supported until 2014.

Overly aggressive updating is as troublesome as obsolescence.

I can't imagine that these forums have more than a few terabytes of data for all the years it has been running. What is that, a few hard drives worth? How long does a search result take, even with all that data?

Is the support for these "official" forums so threadbare that that can't be accommmodated?

[perspectoff]

You are kidding yes?

Yeah, sure I am. You are aware of the number of distributions with proprietary code blobs?

Perhaps copyrighted user interfaces?

Perhaps restrictive submission policies for code?

Oh wait, am I hitting too close to home?

What happened to Anakin between Star Wars 1 and 3?

[castrojo]

Heck, about 1/3 of the advice people post on these forums every day are long outdated because it is stuff the posters have been doing for years (and have never bothered to learn easier, newer methods).

... and this is usually wrong. And then someone will google for something and follow that out of date advice and break their computer. Then when someone asks "Well why did you follow that then?" they say "Well, it's on the OFFICIAL ubuntu forums, I wasn't expecting it to hose my system."

Bad information is **poisonous** to our user experience.

I'd rather rewrite entire pages of docs to be up to date than keep articles telling people to install ndiswrapper from 2007 when they have no reason to do so.

[racie]

It's really silly to hide them if they are still going to be hosted on the server.

Now, I have no problem with the Community Cafe forum archives being completely wiped as they do not contain any useful information.

[KiwiNZ]

Echoes of Microsoft ending support for Windows XP. XP still has 50% of the OS market, especially in the business community. Microsoft had to back off, and XP is now supported until 2014.

Overly aggressive updating is as troublesome as obsolescence.

I can't imagine that these forums have more than a few terabytes of data for all the years it has been running. What is that, a few hard drives worth? How long does a search result take, even with all that data?

Is the support for these "official" forums so threadbare that that can't be accommmodated?

The address for your Cheque is .....

I don't mind paying for Ubuntu Support
P.O Box 0410E
Isle Of white
Planet Real Life

[Thewhistlingwind]

... and this is usually wrong. And then someone will google for something and follow that out of date advice and break their computer. Then when someone asks "Well why did you follow that then?" they say "Well, it's on the OFFICIAL ubuntu forums, I wasn't expecting it to hose my system."

Bad information is **poisonous** to our user experience.

I'd rather rewrite entire pages of docs to be up to date than keep articles telling people to install ndiswrapper from 2007 when they have no reason to do so.

The suggestion of a banner or popup that would say "This information is outdated, and may in fact hose your system." has been made, even having a redirect page would be a better solution then outright removal. Sure, some people would follow the information anyway, but some people just can't be helped.

EDIT: Besides, the problem is hosting, not the quality of the info.

[ayenack]

The archives are of course an ever growing thing.

It's really not a throwing away of knowledge willy nilly it purely logistical. The archives take up valuable resources which really should be directed towards recent post not post that are related to 6.06 or older, are there post for 4.04 in there?

As for the archives being an ever diminishing thing if they were to be hosted on another server by someone else, well that's true if we do not archive the next six months worth of archives and the six months after that and the six months after that and...

There could be a team put together of interested parties to pick out the very best post from the archives and stick them on a WIKI. It could run as an ongoing thing.

The Archives Excellence Team would be a good name.

[Lucradia]

I think they should actually be completely be removed, and tell ubuntu users to help re-write docs and the wiki to be better. Though, to save even more space; the wiki should replace docs, and be updated to the same style as the main site is.

[Dustin2128]

I personally think you should just torrent them and remove them if you need to clear out the space for performance reasons. I'll seed.

[ubudog]

I personally think you should just torrent them and remove them if you need to clear out the space for performance reasons. I'll seed.

An idea, I would seed too. :-)

[duanedesign]

Another option for pulling the gems out of the archive is the 'Best of Ubuntu Community Forum Tutorials' Project. If you would like to contribute to this project please see the Launchpad project page (https://launchpad.net/boucft) and then email me or msg me through the forums. The goal of this project is to pull all the good info from the Forum, convert it to DocBook and have it viewable through the desktop system help browser(yelp).

[k3lt01]

... and this is usually wrong. And then someone will google for something and follow that out of date advice and break their computer. Then when someone asks "Well why did you follow that then?" they say "Well, it's on the OFFICIAL ubuntu forums, I wasn't expecting it to hose my system."At the top of the Archive pages it says something like they are archives, if people cannot read that then they wont be able to handle Ubuntu anyway.


Bad information is **poisonous** to our user experience.And removing information that still has value is even worse. You are effectively limiting your potential user base.


I'd rather rewrite entire pages of docs to be up to date than keep articles telling people to install ndiswrapper from 2007 when they have no reason to do so.It's funny you mention ndiswrapper, the lack of real knowledge about it is amazing and you want to remove pages that are still worthwhile. You do realise that some people cannot afford a new you beaut machine that has a wireless adaptor that works ootb. Some of us (yes that means me) still have machines that need things like ndiswrapper. Like I said if you remove this type of information you are effectively limiting your user base.

The Ubuntu slogan used to be "Linux for Human Beings". If you read the Ubuntu Values (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntuvalues) page you may see and understand that dropping something simply because you seem to feel people should have moved on from machines that need ndiswrapper, doesn't matter if they can't afford to, is contrary to the values this community is supposed to uphold.


The Ubuntu project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone. We are committed to being a community that everyone feels good about joining. Although we may not be able to satisfy everyone, we will always work to treat everyone well.
and

Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honor diversity in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression, language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, subculture, and technical ability.Please not I highlighted socio-economic status as something explicitly mentioned in the Ubuntu Values page.

I said in a previous post you are much better off dropping the Cafe if you have a problem with costs and/or hardware and/or administration. The cafe has no intrinsic value yet the archives do. The vote is quite clear and getting clearer by the day yet I do feel that it doesn't matter what the community say you will indeed remove the archives and in doing so render the Ubuntu Values worthless.

[duanedesign]

It's funny you mention ndiswrapper, the lack of real knowledge about it is amazing and you want to remove pages that are still worthwhile. You do realise that some people cannot afford a new you beaut machine that has a wireless adaptor that works ootb.

The point he was making was that a lot of cards that used to required ndiswrapper do not any more because hardware support has improved a lot over the years. Their are many card specific threads in the archives that are no longer relevant. Their are some that are still relevant. The average user has no way to tell the difference. That is why these should be moved to a resource that can be updated and maintained.

[castrojo]

It's funny you mention ndiswrapper, the lack of real knowledge about it is amazing and you want to remove pages that are still worthwhile.

I've yet to see an old ndiswrapper page that is useful.


You do realise that some people cannot afford a new you beaut machine that has a wireless adaptor that works ootb. Some of us (yes that means me) still have machines that need things like ndiswrapper. Like I said if you remove this type of information you are effectively limiting your user base.

This isn't about making people buy new gear, it's about having up to date information. We would be better off if someone were to ask the question over again and we had a clean slate. This is better than "check out this old page and read 50 pages of corrections and people guessing how it works until they finally figure it out"



The Ubuntu slogan used to be "Linux for Human Beings".



Please note I highlighted socio-economic status as something explicitly mentioned in the Ubuntu Values page.

This doesn't have anything to do with values or socio economic status, it ha to do with removing bad information from the internet so people don't break their computers.

[arashiko28]

There would be an everlasting loop of same questions from beginners, that most are already answered. Despite the use of gnome or unity (latest big change) even if it's outdated sometimes it gives an idea of where to go, what to do or at least how to ask.

I've been saved more than once by the archives. So I vote, keep it.

[castrojo]

There would be an everlasting loop of same questions from beginners, that most are already answered.

Right, but we already get tons of dupes every day. Keeping an archive of the looped questions doesn't make sense either.

[kio_http]

Much of the information is out of date, and for unsupported versions of Ubuntu.


While I agree that there is lots of out of date stuff, I also believe that there is more useful that out of date information. I strongly disagree as I have obtained valuable information from the archives before.

It will also create a big problem in terms of search engines. Search engines often lead you to archived pages and it will be a while before they update themselves to remove dead links.

As it will still take the about of space, I would suggest keeping it in public view and if removal is needed someday then remove it from the databases.

[k3lt01]

The point he was making was that a lot of cards that used to required ndiswrapper do not any more because hardware support has improved a lot over the years. Their are many card specific threads in the archives that are no longer relevant. Their are some that are still relevant. The average user has no way to tell the difference. That is why these should be moved to a resource that can be updated and maintained.No it isn't, see below.


I've yet to see an old ndiswrapper page that is useful.Maybe your not looking hard enough or maybe you just don't care about ndiswrapper that much.


This isn't about making people buy new gear, it's about having up to date information. We would be better off if someone were to ask the question over again and we had a clean slate. This is better than "check out this old page and read 50 pages of corrections and people guessing how it works until they finally figure it out"Some people ask questions again and again anyway and the standard response on all forums is "did you do a search?" There is even a sticky about how to get questions answered. Educating about search functions would stop the build up of useless threads and save problems like finance, hardware, administration issues.


This doesn't have anything to do with values or socio economic status, it ha to do with removing bad information from the internet so people don't break their computers.If it isn't about values etc then the easy option is to place warning on the archives much like the warning that is already there (See screenshot). If you're worried about bad info remove it but don't go and wipe out years of good information based on the fact you yourself can't find anything decent on ndiswrapper.

There are people here in this forum because they have visited other forums and been given a link to a relevant thread (in the archives) for a solution to a problem they are having. I know because I keep linking back to this place in other forums.

You do realise that the appearance is the decision is made anyway so there is really no point to this at all. I have made my points I see no need to reply again.

[23dornot23d]

Confuses me :confused:

Never did like History ..... or learning from the past ..... keep moving forward .....

( Dump all the old stuff that shows people how we got to where we are today ...... )

The New information is all they need .......


We have learned a lot from the past ....... the thing is to hide the history from the next generation then it will not confuse them .......

It will not help them either if they can no longer get to it ....... but keeps us in a job ....

re-writing it ........ and up dating it all ..........

:lolflag:


Thats if we can still be arsed to do it when we know something we wrote before would still
explain a situation .....

I just linked to a old thread to help someone ..... and was wondering why it got sent to another page .....
that meant absolutely nothing to anyone ...... ( which brought me here lols )

But that's progress ......

[castrojo]

Maybe your not looking hard enough or maybe you just don't care about ndiswrapper that much.

Or maybe it's because the search is cluttered with outdated information.



Some people ask questions again and again anyway and the standard response on all forums is "did you do a search?" There is even a sticky about how to get questions answered. Educating about search functions would stop the build up of useless threads and save problems like finance, hardware, administration issues.

This is because vbulletin hasn't advanced in years and it doesn't have dupe detection like modern tools do. So people have to ask questions over and over again because there is no dupe detection, and searching for "ndiswrapper" returns a ton of junk.


If you're worried about bad info remove it but don't go and wipe out years of good information based on the fact you yourself can't find anything decent on ndiswrapper.

I can't remove it, it's stuck there. There's nothing I can do except try to convince people that this isn't working (because it's not).

If we were to delete every old mention of ndiswrapper and have one GOOD page that is up to date it would be less work than cleaning up after the people who follow the wrong advice.

[Paqman]

Pfft, as if new users actually search the forum archives anyway! Storm in a teacup.

[k3lt01]

Or maybe it's because the search is cluttered with outdated information.I just did a search and even though this result (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=885847&highlight=ndiswrapper) is NOT in archives it indicates that either you are not looking very hard or Pytheas22 isn't keeping his thread up to date.


This is because vbulletin hasn't advanced in years and it doesn't have dupe detection like modern tools do. So people have to ask questions over and over again because there is no dupe detection, and searching for "ndiswrapper" returns a ton of junk.Then wouldn't Ubuntu forums be better off getting decent forum software? As for the ton of junk I'd hardly suggest that the first page of the results is full of a ton of junk. The link is on the first page 10th result and considering the title specifically states "Comprehensive ndiswrapper troubleshooting guide" I'd still suggest you are not looking very hard.


I can't remove it, it's stuck there. There's nothing I can do except try to convince people that this isn't working (because it's not).Oh me oh my.


If we were to delete every old mention of ndiswrapper and have one GOOD page that is up to date it would be less work than cleaning up after the people who follow the wrong advice.I found a comprehensive guide in 10 seconds. I still fail to see what your problem is with finding quality information on ndiswrapper.

Maybe you should pick something else to discuss considering I just showed it is actually quite easy to find decent information on ndiswrapper, and if it isn't quality information then Pytheas22 (Ubuntu Forums Staff member) should be asked to update his own comprehensive trouble shooting guide.

[handy]

I hope that Ubuntu manages to attract a large team to work on the wiki. If the wiki were in great shape (like that of Arch for example) people would learn to automatically look there first.

Also, if the wiki was in great shape, when a new user posts a question here they would be sent to the page on the wiki that has complete, clear & concise instructions.

I expect that this is what Canonical would like to create as I know from my experience over at Arch, that if you ask a question in the Arch forum without having searched the wiki, you'll usually be told quite quickly where to go, & often in a manner that helps you to get it into your head that, that is what you are expected to do before you post in the forum.

[williamcunananjr]

I suggest not to block the public from viewing this cos they will be less interested to ubuntu.

[CraigPaleo]

You would save on both space and bandwidth if you kept the text only archives such as http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1703172.html while disabling the full version with all the graphics and such. I think it's worth considering.

[robert shearer]

Provided 'public view' means general Google-like searches and that forum members will still have access then I see no problem with this.

Perhaps more detailed explanation could be provided by the forum staff ??

Cheers,
Bob.

[mörgæs]

Skip the images if necessary, but keep the text at least. In the year of 2011 A.D. a body of plain text can not be a significant work load for a decent server.

For the future, best is to put more attention to the wiki rather than on the forum. This will prevent problems like this from repeating.

[DogMatix]

I have pondered this question before answering. In conclusion I think the Ubuntu Forum should be for the discussion of current issues. The dictionary sums it up nicely.


Forum - ...assembly for the open discussion of subjects of public interest


Archives- a place where public records or other historical documents are kept.

I do realise that the word public is used in the description of the meaning of archives. But further to a comment in this thread about how the Arch Linux Wiki is well documented and the first place to look for information. I decided to do a bit of leg work.

Searching (google) for information on Arch is far more likely to lead you to the wiki, for Ubuntu it seems more likely to lead you to the forum. Also, on the Arch wiki you are greeted by a message:


Welcome to the Arch wiki: your source for Arch Linux documentation on the web.

Amazingly on the Ubuntu Wiki home page you are greeted by a no entry sign and the message:


If you are looking for user help related documentation you are looking in the wrong place; this site is for Ubuntu teams to collaborate.

Maybe in the name of progress and costs and resources. We should grow, expand and rejuvenate the Ubuntu wiki so it becomes closer to what Arch has. Perhaps removing the archives will spur us into action to help out on the Wiki and give back a little to the Ubuntu community sites which are after all provided for free.

[ayenack]

Another option for pulling the gems out of the archive is the 'Best of Ubuntu Community Forum Tutorials' Project. If you would like to contribute to this project please see the Launchpad project page (https://launchpad.net/boucft) and then email me or msg me through the forums. The goal of this project is to pull all the good info from the Forum, convert it to DocBook and have it viewable through the desktop system help browser(yelp).

This is an excellent idea. Makes sense to me.

[ayenack]

i hope that ubuntu manages to attract a large team to work on the wiki. If the wiki were in great shape (like that of arch for example) people would learn to automatically look there first.

Also, if the wiki was in great shape, when a new user posts a question here they would be sent to the page on the wiki that has complete, clear & concise instructions.

+1

[abor]

I DONT FIND LOCKING THE ARCHIVES AS A POSITIVE STEP ,ITS A GREAT HELP 2 UBUNTU BEGINNERS YOU KNOW :-k

[Elfy]

I DONT FIND LOCKING THE ARCHIVES AS A POSITIVE STEP ,ITS A GREAT HELP 2 UBUNTU BEGINNERS YOU KNOW :-k
How are threads almost 3 years old a help to someone beginning to use ubuntu - surely they'll be downloading the new versions.

[searchfgold6789]

The vote should be, "What should we do with all of this information?"
Not, "Should we get rid of all of this information?"

There are a few gems. I do think we should move the date for the archives up a little further.

[handy]

I have changed my mind on this topic. I think that the most important thing is to grow & optimise the Ubuntu wiki.

No matter which way the administration goes on the topic of this thread there will be winners & losers.

In the long run, putting energy into the wiki is to my mind the smartest move as far as creating the most efficient support system for the Ubuntu community.

Inspiring more Ubuntu users to contribute to the wiki is the next major problem.

If forum users were able to confidently point users with questions to the wiki then this forum would become a lot less busy, the forum administration & the mods would also have an easier time.

Why keep on giving the same advice over & over when you can write it down once, edit it when required & point people to it when they need to know (if they couldn't find it for themselves to begin with)?

The Other OS/Distro Talk sub-forum could just keep its data running, as it is inappropriate for it to be stored on the Ubuntu wiki, but it will end up carrying valuable info' for users of other systems.

[Lucradia]

I have changed my mind on this topic. I think that the most important thing is to grow & optimise the Ubuntu wiki.

I have to agree, but integrate it better into ubuntu.com's design, and remove ubuntu.com's docs subdomain. Wiki is pretty much the future anyway in comparison to admin-only docs pages.

[castrojo]

I just did a search and even though this result (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=885847&highlight=ndiswrapper) is NOT in archives it indicates that either you are not looking very hard or Pytheas22 isn't keeping his thread up to date.

If the thread is the most popular then it should be up top, not buried. If it's referenced a ton of times on the site then it should be up top. Having to find it in that mess of results sucks.


Then wouldn't Ubuntu forums be better off getting decent forum software?

EXACTLY!


I found a comprehensive guide in 10 seconds. I still fail to see what your problem is with finding quality information on ndiswrapper.

As I keep saying, this isn't about up to date information, it's about the old information. This guide looks up to date, so why keep the archives around?

[blakep2]

Why not just take the outdated information out of the archives, say from 9.04 below

[Joeb454]

Why not just take the outdated information out of the archives, say from 9.04 below

That would be the entire archives ;)

[3177]

The address for your Cheque is .....

I don't mind paying for Ubuntu Support
P.O Box 0410E
Isle Of white
Planet Real Life

I completely forgot that you could pay Canonical for support.

[Nospoonzz]

It's still going to take up the same amount of space, right? I found a lot of my solutions in the archives, and I'm sure plenty of other people have.

Agreed. Keep the archives. very useful information here.

[malspa]

I voted "no," but I really don't care. The length of this thread is kinda humorous, though.

[mips]

That would be the entire archives ;)

Just Do It, Do It!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmUZGdi7Ty4

[NertSkull]

I've discovered that I tend to get myself involved in things that are not really "mainstream" on ubuntu (gpg, enigmail, streaming aduio using pavucontrol, mythtv with odd configurations, etc).

Often I've found old articles that give me a basis of where to begin to solve problems. I feel like locking down any information is problematic. The more information the better I feel.

But, I can totally understand the concept of newcomers being totally overwhelmed with it.

So, my vote is the wiki route. Don't close down anything, but really start flushing out a great wiki and point newcomers there as the first option.

Then leave other things available when more backstory or help is needed.

Wiki is the wave of of the future. At least I hope so for ubuntu.

[lisati]

Heck, about 1/3 of the advice people post on these forums every day are long outdated because it is stuff the posters have been doing for years (and have never bothered to learn easier, newer methods).
LOL! I sometimes find myself typing stuff at the terminal that was the main/only way of doing stuff when I first started using some software, even though there are newer and better ways of doing things for newer versions.

The Archives Excellence Team would be a good name.
^^This

( Dump all the old stuff that shows people how we got to where we are today ...... )

The New information is all they need .......


We have learned a lot from the past ....... the thing is to hide the history from the next generation then it will not confuse them .......

<aside>Some of the people I hang out with believe that having a sense of where their forebears came from is an important component of who they are. But that's probably another story.</aside>


The vote should be, "What should we do with all of this information?"
Not, "Should we get rid of all of this information?"

There are a few gems. I do think we should move the date for the archives up a little further.
^^ This too.

[scrooge_74]

Some of the answers I needed latetly have come from archives, don't know if just because those issues were resolved in older versions or because no one had the same issue latetly.

So my opinion old post need to be around somehow

[flemur13013]

The essential ideas behind "Open Source" say LEAVE IT OPEN!

[ayenack]

In the long run, putting energy into the wiki is to my mind the smartest move as far as creating the most efficient support system for the Ubuntu community.

Inspiring more Ubuntu users to contribute to the wiki is the next major problem.

If forum users were able to confidently point users with questions to the wiki then this forum would become a lot less busy, the forum administration & the mods would also have an easier time.

Why keep on giving the same advice over & over when you can write it down once, edit it when required & point people to it when they need to know (if they couldn't find it for themselves to begin with)?

Handy we finally agree. LOL.

I think a well maintained wiki is far better than a cumbersome and often out of date archive.

[CraigPaleo]

Some of the answers I needed latetly have come from archives, don't know if just because those issues were resolved in older versions or because no one had the same issue latetly.

So my opinion old post need to be around somehow

The forum ranks high in Google searches. When people can easily find the answer, there's no need to create a newer, redundant post.

The wiki is a good thing but it won't ever feasibly contain all the info that's in the archives.

[manzdagratiano]

Often times you get emails urging you to write to your legislators for a cause... Well I guess this is one of the times I would actually write and request - pray do not lock the archives up! I do realize that a lot of information there may be out of date, but the insights that some of those discussions give you in invaluable - they actually expose one to the bare bones earlier versions of GNU/Linux, and are in fact a record of its evolution!!! They should be there in the same way dinosaurs should be in museums!!!

Moreover, the overwhelming poll results at the moment speak for themselves :)

[manzdagratiano]

<aside>Some of the people I hang out with believe that having a sense of where their forebears came from is an important component of who they are. But that's probably another story.</aside>

Nothing could be more true.

[Dry Lips]

I haven't followed this thread in detail, so I'm sorry if someone
has suggested this before me, but why don't you make a compromise
on this. Keep the archives intact, but remove them from the search
menu so that searches aren't extended to the archives by default.
This way people new to Ubuntu won't be confused by old information,
and people who needs to review the archives can still browse and search
the archives - only not by default.

[ssdt]

Majority is saying no, so please put up a message saying its for old version, might not work now.

[bodhi.zazen]

I have changed my mind on this topic. I think that the most important thing is to grow & optimise the Ubuntu wiki.

Glad you have given it some thought. Just because there are some gems in the archives does not mean the wiki is not a better method.

I would also hold out several wikis as examples of why a well maintained wiki is better the forums archive.

Arch Linux has one of the best.

RHEL / Fedora as well has very nice documentation.

wiki are peer reviewed and maintained by multiple users, thus reducing mistakes and redundancies. In theory a wiki is easier to index. It is all indexed through google and if we refer to the wiki in our posts, wiki pages will start to show up higher in google searches. If the wiki is used it will show on searches, it makes no sense to justify the forums archives because they show on a google search.

I would strongly encourage all of you who know where the gems are in the archives to start working with the wiki team and work to improve the Ubuntu wiki.

If you have expertise in ndiswrapper -> clean up or maintain the wiki page.

Same with wireless in general, how about iptables ? Conky ? apparmor ? Virtualbox ?

The list goes on.

IMO the poll should be closed and I think what we need to discuss is how to improve the wiki and improve integration of the forums into the Greater Ubuntu Community, in the case of documentation this means wiki.

Would be nice to see tighter integration in the testing (now natty) section with LP (bug reports) and the Ubuntu developers and the MOTU.

Integration not duplication =)

[handy]

Handy we finally agree. LOL.

I think a well maintained wiki is far better than a cumbersome and often out of date archive.

I can be a sentimental old fool :)

I use Arch, where the wiki is wonderful & you are expected to use it.

Posting a question in the forum over there, which shows that you didn't use the wiki doesn't get the friendliest of responses.

[handy]

@bodhi.zazen: I agree that the poll here really means nothing. If questions have to be asked again & up to date answers are given so be it.

The bigger picture is to optimise the wiki & make it the prime source of information instead of taking your chances in the luck of the draw out of the higgledy piggledy 1000's of posts in the archives & elsewhere. Which can really be tough on those new to Linux.

I've pulled posts from the archives yonks ago & stored them on my system & published them elsewhere.

People that have favourite posts in the archives should grab them now for future reference (at least).

[kevdog]

I see both points of view but the one thing that really irks me is the constant notion from some that by "deleting the old information" we are protecting users from borking their new installs with "outdated information". My responses to this -- 1) Can't the user read the date on the thread and make some intuitive guesses that the information may not be current 2) What about the newer threads posted everyday that are worth crap and unintentionally spew bad or misleading information?? These threads aren't suddenly deleted or labeled as -- information may not be accurate. To censure the old threads because "they aren't current and may negatively effect current users" is really creating a strawman-type of argument given the fact current threads aren't given the same scrutiny.

Wiki pages would be great -- however these require a lot more time to edit and contribute and oftentimes you can not follow the troubleshooting of particular problems from start to end -- particularly if the wiki is incomplete. The ubuntu forums is a volunteer community. I believe asking users to contribute and edit wiki pages will only capture a very small number of available knowledgeable users. In my own personal experience, I've found the wiki pages to not be that helpful, and when I edit wiki pages, it seems like the original authors' feathers get a bit ruffled. Group collaboration is not always the best way to complete projects. I hated group activities in high school and many of those same objections I had with the manner of group collaboration are in play with the editing of wiki pages.

What the heck however -- Its not like I can stop the process. Damn cannonical makes a ton of money -- you think doing an activity such as deleting their user pages would fall in the category of cutting off their nose despite their face? Why delete the information that in my opinion made you great and risk user alienation? Enough said.

[3177]

for all you people saying wiki should be the source for everyones questions, I say, then theres no need for ubuntuforums! After all, the forums would then have nothing to offer wiki didn't. So open the archives.

[handy]

for all you people saying wiki should be the source for everyones questions, I say, then theres no need for ubuntuforums! After all, the forums would then have nothing to offer wiki didn't. So open the archives.

New problems will always arise due to the variety of variables involved in this topic.

When the wiki doesn't answer your question then you use the forum.

If a page hasn't been created yet, when you find the solution create a wiki page for it. There is a wiki team who would go through & check all new pages & edits, cleaning them up where appropriate.

This is how it works for Arch, & it works incredibly well. Arch has a tiny member base in comparison to Ubuntu.

So in the end it comes down to whether there are enough members in the Ubuntu community that can see how positive creating & maintaining a great Ubuntu wiki would be.

If so, then they can actually make an incredibly positive sea change here. Which would make it much easier for people to find the solutions to their problems, or follow a how-to to do something new that they want/need to do.

[CraigPaleo]

Arch has a tiny member base in comparison to Ubuntu.

Exactly.. and Ubuntuforums have been a driving force behind Ubuntu for a so long that the wiki will never contain a fraction of what the forums do. Ubuntu does NOT have a tiny member base and it shouldn't be managed as if it does.

[zarthon]

I have read several of the responses and ideas.
This thread reveals that many share the sentiment that the forum software is out of date and the wrong place for documentation.

I support the idea of improving the tools ! ! !

betatools.ubuntuforums.org could link to a few cloud based cooperatively competing test solutions each based on a common specialized and evolving 11.04 jeos image. Cooperation between them could be made possible through a JSON/ SOAP message buss and a shared couchdb. :D

[bodhi.zazen]

Wiki pages would be great -- however these require a lot more time to edit and contribute and oftentimes you can not follow the troubleshooting of particular problems from start to end --

We have a large user base and if we re-focus some of our effort can have a very nice set of wiki pages.

Wiki pages really do not take more time then answering questions on the forums, you simply need to change your habits.

Answer questions here, but provide technical details on the wiki. Next time the question comes up, answer the question, reference wiki page for details.

In the end it takes less time then typing a detailed answer on the forums twice ;)

Wiki does not and really can not replace the forums.

I agree the Forums are one aspect of the Ubuntu community, but there is also IRC, Launchpad, wiki team, MOTU, etc.

As a greater community we have a lot of resources and, IMO, it would be nice to see the forums integrate better into the wiki (documentation) and Launchpad (Development and Bug reports).

It is not forums or wiki, it is forums AND wiki. It would be ideal if we used the most appropriate tool for the task at hand.

Wiki is simply a better format for documentation.

Forums are simply a better method for interaction and trouble shooting individual problems or provide more personalized help.

[3177]

Damn you bodhi.zazen for being right.:)
It should be UF AND Wiki.
However, I still say the archives should be open.

[handy]

Exactly.. and Ubuntuforums have been a driving force behind Ubuntu for a so long that the wiki will never contain a fraction of what the forums do. Ubuntu does NOT have a tiny member base and it shouldn't be managed as if it does.

The point that I was obviously clumsily trying to make, is that Arch with a relatively small user base, has created what many consider to be the best support wiki on the net.

So if Arch with a small user base that operate on an ever upgrading rolling release system, with all of the daily changes that such a system may bring, can do such a good job of providing support for itself, why can't Ubuntu, when Ubuntu has so many more users & therefore potential contributors to the wiki?

I think that the problem is that so many Ubuntu users don't know from experience & therefore can't imagine what a huge improvement in support that having a somewhat comprehensive & dynamic wiki would provide for them.

It is a whole new paradigm to think of the forums as the place you go when the wiki can't help you.

[bodhi.zazen]

The point that I was obviously clumsily trying to make, is that Arch with a relatively small user base, has created what many consider to be the best support wiki on the net.

So if Arch with a small user base that operate on an ever upgrading rolling release system, with all of the daily changes that such a system may bring, can do such a good job of providing support for itself, why can't Ubuntu, when Ubuntu has so many more users & therefore potential contributors to the wiki?

I think that the problem is that so many Ubuntu users don't know from experience & therefore can't imagine what a huge improvement in support that having a somewhat comprehensive & dynamic wiki would provide for them.

It is a whole new paradigm to think of the forums as the place you go when the wiki can't help you.

Thank you for that explanation =)

[k3lt01]

To those who don't want them to disappear I would simply suggest you get a copy of what you want as soon as you can. My guess is the archives will be gone by the end of June.

[Jetro]

I don\t see the point, a lot of useful information, and as I often use live CDs and such, I won\t be logged in all the time.

It also will be impossible for me to get my good old Inspiron 9400 to work around the tons of bugs that comes with every Ubuntu release... since it\s not a laptop from 2011. -_-

[DaithiF]

To me the assumption that old means out of date is a very big assumption to make. Theres a pretty large category of software where answers from 2007 are just as likely to be relevant and useful as answers from 2011 ... bash, awk, sed, pretty much any of the standard unix command line tools, and to a slightly lesser extent programming-language specific questions on python, perl, java, etc.

These happen to be the types of posts I am interested in and contribute to, so I admit I don't often see the problems caused by people following out-of-date instructions from old posts in other areas ... ie. the classic ndiswrapper case.

I would hope that this decision to remove the archives is based on actual and frequent examples of such problems, rather than an assumption that they must exist. Otherwise I would vote for trusting users common sense, and not throwing away good content on the assumption that old must always be bad.

[Bcrowes11]

Hi glossywhite

you said



I am not so sure. Have you not noticed the mess that some people manage to get into? There should be an opening splash screen on the Live CD that says in large letters - Not for Plonkers.

Regards.
Dude, YOU'RE the plonker. Stay off ubuntuforums if you have nothing nice to say. Just because people aren't tech savvy doesn't mean they're idiots.
Bcrowes11

[kevdog]

Bodhi

Very good points about the wiki. In fact with Handy's input I do believe the wiki pages should be the way toward the future. Unfortunately this said -- nothing said so far really justifies the removal of the old archives. I would say keep the archives and move toward the wiki pages.

[CraigPaleo]

The point that I was obviously clumsily trying to make, is that Arch with a relatively small user base, has created what many consider to be the best support wiki on the net.

So if Arch with a small user base that operate on an ever upgrading rolling release system, with all of the daily changes that such a system may bring, can do such a good job of providing support for itself, why can't Ubuntu, when Ubuntu has so many more users & therefore potential contributors to the wiki?

I think that the problem is that so many Ubuntu users don't know from experience & therefore can't imagine what a huge improvement in support that having a somewhat comprehensive & dynamic wiki would provide for them.

It is a whole new paradigm to think of the forums as the place you go when the wiki can't help you.

I'm not at all against a comprehensive wiki. I don't think anyone here is saying that.

This is about deleting years of useful information. I know your answer is "move it to the wiki." Now, I'm not psychic and have no way of knowing what someone is going to find useful tomorrow or next week, or next year. That's an impossible task and even if it were possible, it'd be a huge undertaking.

All of this is obviously falling on deaf ears. I don't know why the staff even asked us to vote. It's obvious that the results of this poll won't matter one iota anyway. :(

Edit: I also don't agree with those who suggest the archives be zipped or offered as a download.
Even for those who are so generous to offer hosting, it'll only help the few who can find them.

Google is any companies best friend and UF ranks high on the list. 9 times out of 10, BOOM! UF is in the top ten of the results.

We're talking about average people - the ones who are most likely to try and use Ubuntu.

[NertSkull]

I'm not sure I fully understand what's happening here, so I want to make sure I clarify for my benefit.

What exactly does closed from "public" view mean?

Does it mean no one but the admins can see them?

Or does it mean, they close down from basic google searches, but if you have a UF account and log-in you could still go and find them?

Because the former I don't love. But the latter I don't have a problem with at all.

I guess I just don't know what public view is in this case (and sorry if this has been discussed, I didn't read all 15 pages of this thread, just a few).

[CraigPaleo]

I'm not sure I fully understand what's happening here, so I want to make sure I clarify for my benefit.

What exactly does closed from "public" view mean?

Does it mean no one but the admins can see them?

Or does it mean, they close down from basic google searches, but if you have a UF account and log-in you could still go and find them?

Because the former I don't love. But the latter I don't have a problem with at all.

I guess I just don't know what public view is in this case (and sorry if this has been discussed, I didn't read all 15 pages of this thread, just a few).

They're now considering doing away with the archives altogether.

[meditatingfrog]

i also didn't read this forum in detail, so apologies if this was already said, and I'm reluctant to say it, but I would be surprised if a lot of the forum material is NOT duplicated on IRC which is logged at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com.

I'm not sure how google's algorithms work, but i'm wondering if the archives were blocked, would google searches start hitting the irc logs instead.

+1 for a better wiki, but, without knowing how google works, i'm not sure if improving the wiki will do it. The wiki should be the first place to go, unfortunately the google hits are seemingly random blog sites instead of wiki material. Granted, the wiki material is often missing entirely.

Really, if you work on something, you should probably be putting stuff in a wiki on it. Even if it's just one sentence, at least then there is an article that can be added to.

EDIT: "is" fixed to "is NOT".

[matt79]

Now this may have already been mentioned but I do not have the time right now to read all the other posts. So here is my thought:
Would it be possible to take the archive and split it into two groups, 1 = solved 2 = open (unsolved).

Then #1 could be kept for people to reference and #2 could be removed.

[bodhi.zazen]

Here is an example of the kind of post we are discussing:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10653379&postcount=11

Fantastic post, but IMO it would be better to add that kind of detailed information to the wiki.

It really would not have taken *that* much more effort to do so, and then the documentation could be maintained by others.

[matt79]

Here is an example of the kind of post we are discussing:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10653379&postcount=11

Fantastic post, but IMO it would be better to add that kind of detailed information to the wiki.

It really would not have taken *that* much more effort to do so, and then the documentation could be maintained by others.

Well I would think the solved ones would not need to be maintained. They could just be static. If someone wants to discuss more information about an archive item then they can just reference the page ID on a forum post.

[CraigPaleo]

Here is an example of the kind of post we are discussing:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10653379&postcount=11

Fantastic post, but IMO it would be better to add that kind of detailed information to the wiki.

It really would not have taken *that* much more effort to do so, and then the documentation could be maintained by others.

No one is stopping anyone from adding such a post to the wiki.But, there are also many support posts in the archives that may be seemingly simple to you that aren't to the rest.

It may be something as simple as searching for an error message or trying to figure out how to get rid of an applet when a right click on the panel will work for 90% of users but not the rest.

I do appreciate all you do: your help and guides - but I think you're thinking too far ahead of the curve.

[Neezer]

If you're going to keep the archives then they should be viewable. If you hide them from the public what good are they? You might as well just delete the data and lose all of that information.

I have found many solutions in the archives from doing searches. I think it is a valuable resource that should be preserved.

[jal301]

My entire LIFE benefits greatly from message boards - and a vast majority of that is from archives. Please consider this: not only are those with older systems (which I still maintain) gaining the knowledge, but considering those who care to be elaborate enough when they have and solve a problem. It is a tremendous benefit to those who may not have the exact same problem, but can draw parallels from HOW the problem was solved. If there is no specific, great benefit from removing these archives, then why do it?

'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

I suppose that somebody has suggested that they're not needed. Perhaps this individual or group does not need the archives, but have they had this idea through a true data analysis to conclude that they are not needed or beneficial to others?

[bodhi.zazen]

I think you're thinking too far ahead of the curve.

I understand that, but, a long term goal needs to be to integrate into the greater community and archiving -> removal from public view is coming at some point. The discussion is not really if it should be done, but rather how to best accomplish these changes.

I understand there is quality information posted on these forums every day, but, forums are conversations, not textbooks or documentation.

So while I completely understand there is some quality information in the archives, there is a lot of cruft as well.

In addition, if you consider the alternatives, the forums format is not conducive to documentation and the argument that we need to maintain old threads / posts / conversations to preserve documentation is best answered by shifting the documentation to the wiki for a long list of reasons.

This thread serves notice to the community that change upon us and that you can not expect old posts / threads to be maintained indefinitely.

I think I speak for the entire staff when I say I would like to see the transition as easy as possible. I would suggest:

1. You all should make a list of the threads or posts you feel should be preserved. We do not have the staff to review all the archives for the gems.

If you identify a list of threads or posts, we could probably easily move them from the archives to some place like "Ubuntu classic".

In the long term I would ask the information be transcribed to the wiki.

2. Please give some thought as to how we, the Ubuntu forums, can better integrate into the community and improve things such as the wiki and launchpad (bug reports , hardware support, and development).

3. If you ask me, all the time and effort people are offering to host the archives is better spent elsewhere, specifically the wiki.

It is rather trivial to transcribe forms posts to the wiki, I did that before I joined the staff, it was how I became more involved in the community.

There is a bit of a learning curve with the wiki, both for using it and for contributing to it, but if you can use the forums and post
code blocks
quote boxes and what not you can wiki.

I am open to other suggestions as well and I appreciate all the feedback we have received in this thread.

[bodhi.zazen]

'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.'

I agree with that, but it is broken and I am trying to fix it, or did you forget the recent issues with the forums.

Well, it is not exactly broken, yet, but the forums has grown to such a size that the current paradigm needs to be reviewed.

If we had unlimited resources and no technical limitations we would not be changing. No offense to anyone, but maintaining a large and active forums is not without limits and we need to acknowledge the limitations, not pretend the do not exist.

[23dornot23d]

Now this may have already been mentioned but I do not have the time right now to read all the other posts. So here is my thought:
Would it be possible to take the archive and split it into two groups, 1 = solved 2 = open (unsolved).

Then #1 could be kept for people to reference and #2 could be removed.

+1

I wondered about this too ..... as I often search on solved threads to look for a way forward .... and even when its old ...... you can
take away some of the steps they went through to try to solve things ......... :D

This would possibly halve the archives ...... and is easy for a search engine to split them into ....... SOLVED - UNSOLVED

Then later people can go through the SOLVED and pick out the best links ....... for future use ......

[bodhi.zazen]

+1

I wondered about this too ..... as I often search on solved threads to look for a way forward .... and even when its old ...... you can
take away some of the steps they went through to try to solve things ......... :D

This would possibly halve the archives ...... and is easy for a search engine to split them into ....... SOLVED - UNSOLVED

Then later people can go through the SOLVED and pick out the best links ....... for future use ......

The staff does not have the time to do this, the community would need to participate in the task of reviewing the archives and identifying material to be preserved in some way.

[EarlsFurniture]

More often than not, I found my answers in the archives, long before I signed up with an account. I still search through archives for answers before logging in and asking a question. If they are going to remain on the server anyway, what's the point?

[bodhi.zazen]

If they are going to remain on the server anyway, what's the point?

I guess the point is that old posts / archives are not going to remain on the server forever.

[gsmanners]

I'd just like to point out that archive.org has this forum's data, so keeping it here might be considered a bit redundant.

[bodhi.zazen]

I'd just like to point out that archive.org has this forum's data, so keeping it here might be considered a bit redundant.

Probably in the google (cache) archives as well, lol.

[k3lt01]

I agree with that, but it is broken and I am trying to fix it, or did you forget the recent issues with the forums.This is the crux of the matter. What did the admin group shut down when the forums were having problems? The Cafe was one thing.


Well, it is not exactly broken, yet, but the forums has grown to such a size that the current paradigm needs to be reviewed.Exactly, I said it before this forum needs to decide if it is here to provide technical help or somewhere for people to post in things like the "bump thread". What is the priority?


If we had unlimited resources and no technical limitations we would not be changing. No offense to anyone, but maintaining a large and active forums is not without limits and we need to acknowledge the limitations, not pretend the do not exist.No one has said you should pretend they don't exist. I think the poll shows that people value the archives for the valuable help they provide, even now they are useful. Where are the resources better used? Keeping technical information or talking about things that have no technical bearing what-so-ever.

This thread has gone around in circles. The forums admin know what the general membership feel.

[Bcrowes11]

they're now considering doing away with the archives altogether.
no!!! Don"t lock up the shizz we love!

[josephellengar]

I frequently access the archives to search for a solution to an old problem. If the archives are removed from public view, all of those problems that were google-able before will have to be asked again.

[jerenept]

I frequently access the archives to search for a solution to an old problem. If the archives are removed from public view, all of those problems that were google-able before will have to be asked again.

People ask without Google-ing anyway, so what is the point?

[josephellengar]

People ask without Google-ing anyway, so what is the point?

There are plenty of us who do google first and there may be a solution hidden in th archives that no one who is current can come up with.

[madjr]

why not remove pages by traffic being received.

the least traffic lately the least need i believe. If no traffic for over X years then mark for deletion...

also there are some gems, so i would not go and delete everything blindly, just because of some space.

[honeybear]

Much of the information is out of date, and for unsupported versions of Ubuntu.

As you correctly state, it would take up the same amount of space, but this allows us to look at removing it in future if needs be.

why to remove them? Sorry but old posts are useful, and sometimes more than all the crap that could be said on the board daily. In the past there were more linux experts. Today, there are lot more newbies and it definitely lowers the level of linux talk/knowledge on the board.

[cgarre]

maybe allow them to be non commentable, so it is just a readonly ! or ya - possibly it should be dumped to an index and allow searching .. ah its sad to lose archives, but obviously there is a limit to storage :)

[ayenack]

It seems to me that a lot of the post for keeping the archives are off point. Yes in an ideal world where there were no issues with resources then it would not be a problem to keep the archives, (other than the fact that they often give out of date info) but there's finite resources that have to managed in the best way to keep the forum reactive to new post.

As for people saying that the archive rate very well in google searches well, that's right they do, and this is the problem. The server getting a large percentage of its hits for old and often out of date and completely irrelevant info is just a drain on resources.

A wiki is in my opinion is the way to go. The archives can only grow if they are kept indefinitely which, will eventually end up with a forum which mainly contains archives surely no one can think this is desirable?

The forum is a forum NOT an archive site.

[Thewhistlingwind]

It seems to me that a lot of the post for keeping the archives are off point. Yes in an ideal world where there were no issues with resources then it would not be a problem to keep the archives, (other than the fact that they often give out of date info) but there's finite resources that have to managed in the best way to keep the forum reactive to new post.

As for people saying that the archive rate very well in google searches well, that's right they do, and this is the problem. The server getting a large percentage of its hits for old and often out of date and completely irrelevant info is just a drain on resources.

A wiki is in my opinion is the way to go. The archives can only grow if they are kept indefinitely which, will eventually end up with a forum which mainly contains archives surely no one can think this is desirable?

The forum is a forum NOT an archive site.

That still doesn't make it right to destroy whats already been accumulated. The best way to strengthen the ubuntu support system is indeed to improve the wiki. A lot of information from the archives has basically been "premade" and only need be parsed by humans and condensed into the wiki. Destroying it, even in the face of mounting server costs, is silly when it could be transported somewhere else. I still say that having a copy out there on the net ensures that previous work won't be lost. (Though apparently the forum has been archive.org'ed.) Of course I'm not the administrator, there may be issues associated with this I'm not aware of.

[ikt]

The worldofwarcraft forums were deleted and they started fresh with the latest expansion about 5 months ago, they essentially deleted 6 years worth of forum posts that is much more active than even these forums.

I haven't seen anyone complain, any information that was useful was copied and remade on the new forums.

As said, a lot of info was for outdated versions of wow so it really was pointless keeping it around.

[ayenack]

That still doesn't make it right to destroy whats already been accumulated. The best way to strengthen the ubuntu support system is indeed to improve the wiki. A lot of information from the archives has basically been "premade" and only need be parsed by humans and condensed into the wiki. Destroying it, even in the face of mounting server costs, is silly when it could be transported somewhere else. I still say that having a copy out there on the net ensures that previous work won't be lost. (Though apparently the forum has been archive.org'ed.) Of course I'm not the administrator, there may be issues associated with this I'm not aware of.

Yes. I've already covered that in an earlier post.

Look here. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1721627&page=9)

Sixth post down. Name might be a bit naff but the idea stands. ;-)

[NertSkull]

It seems to me that a lot of the post for keeping the archives are off point. Yes in an ideal world where there were no issues with resources then it would not be a problem to keep the archives, (other than the fact that they often give out of date info) but there's finite resources that have to managed in the best way to keep the forum reactive to new post.

As for people saying that the archive rate very well in google searches well, that's right they do, and this is the problem. The server getting a large percentage of its hits for old and often out of date and completely irrelevant info is just a drain on resources.

A wiki is in my opinion is the way to go. The archives can only grow if they are kept indefinitely which, will eventually end up with a forum which mainly contains archives surely no one can think this is desirable?

The forum is a forum NOT an archive site.

Maybe I'm interpreting wrong, but this doesn't seem to be accurate. Its not solely a desire to keep "resources" under control. Because they have said they don't plan on deleting the material of the servers, just making it gone from public view (maybe in the future delete, but not saying they will).

So I guess you could make the argument that they want to free up bandwidth. But still I don't think thats what I'm hearing.

The main argument for getting rid of them appears to be closing off old, outdated information. Which I can understand that being a problem to someone new. And I'm sure there is a lot of outdated useless stuff.

But there is also a lot of good stuff. Which is why I think an enhanced wiki would be great.

A place for articles on any subject to grow and expand and clarify as each version comes out. You could even keep a revision history based on distro, so you could go back and find what the tutorial was like for an older version that you may be running. It could be great.

But destroying information is kind of like the chinese cultural revolution (i kid, i kid....but, I really have found useful things in those old posts).

Anyway, I see both sides of the argument, and I hope in the end the wiki is the middle ground that we can point new and old users to for a wealth of information.

[nathan28]

I am constantly consulting posts that are years old here, and I only consider myself 60-70% noob.

Despite popular impressions, documentation for Ubuntu sucks, and so does support. Canonical is doing better than most distros at making tutorial and explanatory information available, but still, there are massive amounts of missing info.

What would be good would be sorting high-signal:noise posts from low ones, and altering the Google-bility of the archive posts. Maybe a "Best of the Archives" sidebar. I don't know, I'm not the person coding or maintaining the site.

[retbak]

sorry I voted yes by accident, I have used old tutorials many times and would like to maintain access to the archives for future problem-solving

[zer010]

Just got pointed to this gem and it seems like it's still useful even though I'm looking up running compiz on a xfce Fedora....
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=623752&highlight=compiz+xfce
^.^d

[Redsandro]

Are you kidding?! The cafe archives must be forever preserved!:P

Quoted For Truth.

More often than not have the archives been useful to me.
But not necessarily the cafe. :P

[bwallum]

I sometimes find that bugs regress and can go back years. At those times the archives have been useful. I will vote for retaining them because of this. It would be good to use a clear warning to users that they were using the archives (which happens now but perhaps could be bolder/clearer to the motivated enthusiast gaily chasing down a fix to get their Ubuntu running as they want it.?)

If necessary make a separate log in and disclaimer to access the archives if we want to prevent exploitation of the free and frank open discussions that the archives contain. Perhaps even use a minimum bean count as a prerequisite to stop the uninitiated from harming themselves? That might also cut down server requirements if that is an issue.

I guess that the archives are pretty well distributed too and so a Google search would probably throw up much of their contents.

[KL_72_TR]

Much of the information is out of date, and for unsupported versions of Ubuntu.

As you correctly state, it would take up the same amount of space, but this allows us to look at removing it in future if needs be.
I don't think so. The majority of the threads are still valid, the most important thing is the way to resolve a given problem.
Removing is not a problem (push a button and is gone). Instead why not compress in some way and make them available as PDF (I know the PDF will be miles long but just an idea), or maybe we could find a better solution not to remove Archives forever.
I vote remove :twisted:

[themarker0]

Please consider a better solution. Maybe deleting it from the database would be good, but please host it on a locked forum somewhere else. Its part of the forums history!

[emarkay]

Well, if "the powers that be" would ensure that all the manpages, wikis and other "official" documents are 100% updated for the LTS and current versions, then yes, hide them.

But being that the above is not completed, no, I'd rather hunt and peck with a 6 year old thread that may solve my problem than to have to rely on some Google search of an unsubstantiated and maybe even less helpful webpage elsewhere.

[conradin]

I voted no, but I guess it depends how it get maintained and how far back the archive is.

[nikRbokR]

This doesn't make much sense. The archives are my source for most answers.

[Bcrowes11]

i frequently access the archives to search for a solution to an old problem. If the archives are removed from public view, all of those problems that were google-able before will have to be asked again.

i hate losing valued info.

[scouser73]

Is there a date where the archives will be cut off from, say Ubuntu 9.04 for instance, anything prior to that would be locked from view?

[orethrius]

For what it's worth, I think the Wiki really is the way to go here. My primary concern was echoed by an earlier post: the Wiki has a "do not enter" sign in the center third of the screen (direct eye focus) and reads more as a developer's resource than a Q&A-style solutions guide. If we fail to capture at least that aspect of the community forums, I can't see this as boding well for the retention of knowledgeable members.

EDIT: I don't see the point in removing the archives if key information isn't moved to the Wiki by someone or another, and I don't see that happening without some graphical reconsideration that will help new users to feel more welcome searching for answers there before here. Money and bandwidth issues are all well and good, but if contributors feel unappreciated, they ultimately hold the power over whether their submissions will be re-posted in the future. Some of them simply lack the time to do something so potentially unrewarding when they also have to hold down day jobs, so we need to be at least partly considerate of their work.

[Thewhistlingwind]

The wiki needs work, seeing how it says it's not meant for documentation ON THE HOMEPAGE I like to think that somebody needs to rethink their decision. (Hint: It's not the people who want to move content to the wiki.)

If were going to have a wiki that discourages newbs and helpful souls, whats the point?

[Angelo Maldito]

THAT'S ABSOLUTELY INSANE !!!

About two years ago, when I first started using Ubuntu (and Linux at all), I could find here in this forum the fixes that I needed for the wireless and the touchpad of my HP Mini 210 which weren't working out-of-the-box after a fresh install of Karmic Koala. Now I'm a Ubuntu enthusiast, thanks for this forum because here I discovered that there is a very helpful community looking after you helping to solve the problems you might face.

Certainly, if this forums weren't here (opened for all, including 'strangers' or 'aliens' as I was at the time) when I needed (to fix my wireless and my touchpad when I first got started with Ubuntu) I would be frustrated and would go straight back to Windows OS, as I wouln'd live without my wireless and my touchpad and definitely I woul'd not be able to solve it by myself.

LONG LIVE FOR THE UBUNTU FORUMS, THE HOME OF THE UBUNTU COMMUNITY !!!

[Grenage]

THAT'S ABSOLUTELY INSANE !!!

About two years ago, when I first started using Ubuntu (and Linux at all), I could find here in this forum the fixes that I needed for the wireless and the touchpad of my HP Mini 210 which weren't working out-of-the-box after a fresh install of Karmic Koala. Now I'm a Ubuntu enthusiast, thanks for this forum because here I discovered that there is a very helpful community looking after you helping to solve the problems you might face.

Certainly, if this forums weren't here (opened for all, including 'strangers' or 'aliens' as I was at the time) when I needed (to fix my wireless and my touchpad when I first got started with Ubuntu) I would be frustrated and would go straight back to Windows OS, as I wouln'd live without my wireless and my touchpad and definitely I woul'd not be able to solve it by myself.

LONG LIVE FOR THE UBUNTU FORUMS, THE HOME OF THE UBUNTU COMMUNITY !!!

I think you might possibly have misread the thread.

[rykel]

I certainly DISAGREE to deleting the archives.


It is called an ARCHIVE - ie. old information for reference only.
It contains outdated information, but since there are outdated machines running Ubuntu out there, it is still relevant - to these systems that is.
It contains implicit solutions for many problems.
It is OUR posts - deleting them deletes away our years of labour for Ubuntu.

[t0p]

I'd just like to point out that archive.org has this forum's data, so keeping it here might be considered a bit redundant.

I voted No; but I agree it is not necessary to keep the archives on the forum's servers if the Internet Archives (http://www.archive.org/web/web.php) have got them. Thing is, I'll bet there are a lot of people using these forums who don't know about www.archive.org (http://ubuntuforums.org/www.archive%20org) and the WayBack Machine (http://www.archive.org/web/web.php).

[kostageas]

I vote yes. The last thing we need is for new users to use old information that doesn't work, and get turned off from ubuntu because of it.

[Bakerconspiracy]

There are too many obscure problems that were solved back in the day. We are going to have to solve all those again if we destroy it.

[Phrea]

Much of the information is out of date, and for unsupported versions of Ubuntu.

As you correctly state, it would take up the same amount of space, but this allows us to look at removing it in future if needs be.

Very long thread, not going through it all.
Every piece of information can be useful for somebody.
Maybe we can at least sift through the topics and archive them according to version and [general] topic?


If this has been suggested [to death] before, I apologize, I didn't have time to read the whole thread, and I might even have missed the actual point.

[eisenwyrm]

i agree, just organise it and maybe remove threads based on obsolete software

[Kururu Souchou]

'From public view', that means we still can see them right, I mean, as members here we should be smart enough to know that some information, especially in the archives, would usually be out of date. Right??????:guitar:

[k3lt01]

'From public view', that means we still can see them right, I mean, as members here we should be smart enough to know that some information, especially in the archives, would usually be out of date. Right??????:guitar:
Read the thread, the intent is to initially remove them from public view on the 29th of this month, and then to remove them totally because the admin group think .... actually I'm not sure the admin group know what they are thinking cause there have been multiple excuses made and not one really stacks up to any logical thought process when you consider what else this place has.

Did I say that? my bad!

[piquat]

As a newb I get a ton of answers from the Archives.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, I learn from them. You can look at how things USED to be done and it really helps you understand not only how they're done now, but WHY they're are done this way today. No amount of "wiki" will ever replace them. You are removing history, it will be repeated in the threads to come on this board.

I hate starting support threads but I guess I'm going to have to learn to like it....

[WatsonDE]

I have gotten a wealth of information from the older posts over the past several months but I have not signed up til today. Even though a lot of it is out-of-date as far as "how to" type solutions are concerned, being able to see and understand how the system has changed and grown over time has been very educational. And even if the commands and stuff aren't useful, the concepts generally are. I'm sure there's lots of other people who feel the same but aren't posting.

On a more personal note, the very idea of making access to knowledge "non-public" is offensive to me. We spend our entire lives questing after knowledge, and it is one of the only things around (love being one of the others) that can be spread without being diminished.

[HappinessNow]

if it would mean a faster more stable Ubuntuforums, then I am all for locking and even removing the archives.

In fact it would be nice to see an auto-delete feature for threads more then 3 months old of inactivity.

honestly archived information belongs in a wiki not a forum. IMHO

[thewolfman]

I must agree, if things are hidden, where is the basis that Linux has become gone to!!. You could simply create "an older archives section" rather than hide/delete all the old stuff.

People who are not members of the Ubuntu forum would be forced to join up just to have access to the infomation which should be freely available to everyone!!.

Regards thewolfman.

[matt_symes]

I am with the staff on this one. I think the archives should be removed and the gems consolidated into the wiki's.

There are so many old posts that do not supply a solution and just tailor off into nothing.....

On other posts the information or solutions given are just plain wrong or not applicable to the current versions of *buntu.

I would hope the HowTo's would stay to complement the Wiki but i have to agree that posts dating from 2005 - 2009 and such are, more often than not, inapplicable to *buntu in 2011.

Out of interest, how old do posts have to be to be considered for archival ?

[user1397]

i don't see why everyone's worried about this right now, i mean can't you clearly see from the poll that there's an overwhelming majority of people who want to keep the archives? would the mods really want all that hatin'?

[Grenage]

i don't see why everyone's worried about this right now, i mean can't you clearly see from the poll that there's an overwhelming majority of people who want to keep the archives? would the mods really want all that hatin'?

Probably; it's not a democracy. :)

[CraigPaleo]

There are too many obscure problems that were solved back in the day. We are going to have to solve all those again if we destroy it.

And that will take more resources. Everytime it happens, instead of just one person reading through an archive, you'll end up with someone making a new thread with hundreds or thousands of people reading that new thread.

This, at the worst possible time - the day after Natty's release!

[MisterGaribaldi]

I'm definitely in the "either leave it be accessible or delete it altogether" camp.

Are you admins really certain prohibiting public access to publicly-accessible, community-generated archival information is really a smart thing to do?

I think all this is going to do is create ill will amongst a community who now will no longer have a reason to believe their hard work will be allowed to reach the community they're choosing of their own free will to support.

Talk about your typical "decision made in committee"... geez...

[Joeb454]

Talk about your typical "decision made in committee"... geez...

The poll is there to let users tell us what they think. Evidently, the way things are at the moment, most of them think we're wrong.

This is fine by me, we can just look at the way we organise the archives, and perhaps archive the current content as well, so the archives then have 2 sub-forums "Pre-April 2008" and "Pre-April 2012", for example. NOTE That is only one possible option that could be taken, no guarantees.

Either way, it's looking like we won't remove them, the way feedback has been going. I'm sure it will be discussed by the FC in the next week or so :)

[3177]

This is fine by me, we can just look at the way we organise the archives, and perhaps archive the current content as well, so the archives then have 2 sub-forums "Pre-April 2008" and "Pre-April 2012", for example. NOTE That is only one possible option that could be taken, no guarantees.




re-organizing them as such would be great.

[befana]

Deletng UF is equal to delete all books with Newton laws. How one to learn Ubuntu/Linux without UF? There's a big amount of useful, essential info here... Don't remove it, please! Remove threads with Screenshots in The Community Cafe, but not others... I can't even write my Conky script if not reading a forum thread here....

What means "public view"?

[SPARTAN-118]

I really wish you wouldn't do this. Make it harder to get to if you feel you must. Add a gateway of some sort that requires reading a disclaimer and points to search for the current forum perhaps. You could even make it a separate site if you think you have to. I don't see any need to change it at all really. I've found worthwhile material in the archives frequently. I hope they remain open to google's bot and to us meat people. They CAN'T take up that much space; they are essentially just glorified text files, right?

Of course, it's your hardware, your bandwidth, your money. So I don't presume to tell you what to do. But I wish I could convince you this would not be at all nice of you.
I'm with this person.
Mainly because I don't want to read through all the pages to find someone else who supports my opinion better. :P
...
Dismissed.

[malspa]

The poll is there to let users tell us what they think. Evidently, the way things are at the moment, most of them think we're wrong.

[...]

Either way, it's looking like we won't remove them, the way feedback has been going. I'm sure it will be discussed by the FC in the next week or so :)

Wow! I didn't think that the folks who decide these things would budge on this, regardless of the results of the poll. Glad to see that someone's listening, at least!

[bodhi.zazen]

So long as there are no technical problems (size of data base, bandwidth, etc) I would suggest:

1. We archive posts / threads every 6 months , with the release cycle of Ubuntu. Posts / threads with no activity (active posts) in the last 6 months would be archived.

2. Archives would remain publicly visible.

3. The forums community would ideally become more active in maintaining the wiki. One of many examples, how about maintaining the conky pages ?

4. The community really needs to understand that there is always a potential for technical limitations when running a forums of our size. When such limitations arise they need to be discussed and managed. Comments suggesting that the staff has some kind of hidden agenda or ulterior motivation detract from productive conversations on managing limitations when they occur.

Ubuntu forums staff are all volunteers. The hardware / storage space / bandwidth / etc is all provided by Canonical free of charge to the community.

[CraigPaleo]

Admins,

http://organzaplus.com/prodimages/balloon28sm.jpg :D:D

[karrank%]

Am I missing something? Aren't the posts already date-indexed so that the searcher would expect the advice to be, literally, dated? If there's a space limit or other technical/resource reason to lock the archives, then fine. But I'd be SOL if this was locked away as it saved my bacon more than once.

[BlacqWolf]

Just like the majority of the responding Ubuntu community, I say no. Removing the archives could prevent some people from finding answers before having to create a new thread. Of course, some of the older stuff may be out-of-date, but some of it still applies today. Back before they had an "official" flash for x64, I found a way in the archives to get flash on my system - but back then I was a n00b to Linux, and didn't know how to do what today I find obvious. But there are a lot of Linux n00bs out there, and one major seller of an OS is to make it easy, or make support or solutions for it easy, because there are a lot more people out there who are technology-illiterate than there are literate. So I think removing the archives would be a rather irrational act, in my opinion.

[Wobblybob]

I'm for keeping these posts live, I've often found old post very useful Ubuntu may change over the years but much of the advice remains up to date.

[k3lt01]

i don't see why everyone's worried about this right now, i mean can't you clearly see from the poll that there's an overwhelming majority of people who want to keep the archives? would the mods really want all that hatin'?This may be the time they prove me wrong but so be it I'm going to say this anyway. Ubuntu has over the years shown it doesn't matter what the general membership believe, they will do what they want regardless of what the vote is.

[iPadFanboy]

Just like the majority of the responding Ubuntu community, I say no. Removing the archives could prevent some people from finding answers before having to create a new thread. Of course, some of the older stuff may be out-of-date, but some of it still applies today. Back before they had an "official" flash for x64, I found a way in the archives to get flash on my system - but back then I was a n00b to Linux, and didn't know how to do what today I find obvious. But there are a lot of Linux n00bs out there, and one major seller of an OS is to make it easy, or make support or solutions for it easy, because there are a lot more people out there who are technology-illiterate than there are literate. So I think removing the archives would be a rather irrational act, in my opinion.

Couldn't have said it better!

[analogcolors]

I am firmly on the side of NOT removing the Archives. There's no huge gain made; we just lose part of the contributions of the community, however old those contributions may be.

[Vegan]

I assume this forum software package is similar to phpBB that I use. If that is the case then my old Celeron could host this easily with its current 160GB disk.

Messages are stored in a database which consumes little space but its a tad demanding for a faster storage solution when lots of messages need to be displayed.

Database applications love SSD and they are now coming to market in larger sizes for database users who need the performance.

See my reviews page for benchmarks of all my old hard disks.

Unfortunately I cannot afford a SSD at the moment.

[HappinessNow]

i don't see why everyone's worried about this right now, i mean can't you clearly see from the poll that there's an overwhelming majority of people who want to keep the archives? would the mods really want all that hatin'?

A simple solution for community members who want access to ubuntuforums archive, just mirror the forums on a separate server and make them available to all...isn't that what Ubuntu is all about? We all are, what we all are?

[ubudog]

A simple solution for community members who want access to ubuntuforums archive, just mirror the forums on a separate server and make them available to all...isn't that what Ubuntu is all about? We all are, what we all are?

:-)

[neil_1]

Archives shouldnt be locked away
They have a lot of usefull material that people can use !

[ImConfused]

Theoretically the Wiki would contain the pertinent information that was in the archives. In fact like all summaries there is the editing factor. The editor decides what is correct. The editor decides what should be retained. I had a particular set of information I posted on an old forum (may not have been Ubuntu) about booting Linux installed on a USB when the bios doesn't support booting from the USB. The post was eliminated. I still have a bios that doesn't support USB booting but I am booting from the USB memory stick via a CDROM with Isolinux. I have read many times that this is not possible. My post was probably too long or not clear but many ideas were in it for someone to pick up on. I could have used it for a future setup myself. It is good to have the WIKI with simple reworked summaries. To think that everything important will be included in the WIKI is assuming a degree of perfection that doesn't exist in the real world. The bad directions may just need some reworking with modern ideas to become good directions.

[ukripper]

Archives are ubuntu's wealth. Shouldn't be removed.

[itisbasi]

Coming from a non-technical background, I am trying to understand the reason behind the move! How much money and resources will be saved by doing this?

[COKEDUDE]

It would be ideal, IMO, if some of this gems in the archives were converted from the Forums -> Ubuntu wiki.

wiki pages are easier to maintain.

What about as we have discussed in the past that it is VERY hard to find topics in the Ubuntu wiki? It is much easier to find forum topics from google than it is to find ubuntu wiki topics. Google has a really difficult time searching through the ubuntu wiki.


I think we should put it to a vote - let your community decide :)

Just because advice is out of date, doesn't mean people will blindly follow it; you're talking to a massive collective of rather intelligent beings, not plonkers :lol: Why go through all the effort of Wiki-ising it, when it exists here, and can be read for prosperity and sentimental value even!

Please, shall we vote? :D

DON'T burn your legacy :(

I love that word. It is so funny.

[BryanFRitt]

"Should the Archives be removed from public view?"
Are you saying people need to sign in if they want to see the Archives?
What would be the reason(s) behind that be?

If you're scared of having people access old information thinking it's new information, you can do something like put a highlighted message at the top and bottom of every post, and at the top and bottom of every page, as well as a link that searches for updated related pages (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=10645738), and a link that can help people search (http://ubuntuforums.org/search.php), etc...

[s_shuffle]

Much of the information is out of date, and for unsupported versions of Ubuntu.

As you correctly state, it would take up the same amount of space, but this allows us to look at removing it in future if needs be.

Many of this Outdated info is still useful due to some ""reappearing"" problems later on in newer Ubuntu version. It has been useful already to me to resolve issues for TV capture cards, Tablet HP laptops, and functionalities that for example worked with or breezy,hardy but then later on weren't implemented in lucid( but with accessing older info I was able to re put back)

It occupies space but it's a great SUPPORT RESOURCE.

[RobikShrestha]

This forum is a great asset for the ubuntu users. I do not know why this forum would cost too much of money but I still think it should not be locked down.

[TheStroj]

Don't remove them, they are VERY helpful, even if they are 5 years old (or more). Some of the posts will be helpful all the time, no matter what version of ubuntu we will be using.
Must agree to those who said to simply make a banner saying 'It might be out of date'.

[RJQ]

I do not think that "public" need to find the archives while googling around, as a matter of fact is good even for Ubuntu Users when they trying to outsource information from the distribution, many, but many times I got a bunch of outdated information this way and is just a waste of time, in the other hand much of the useful information in the archives that is missing from the community docs should be subtracted and placed in the same documentation. (plenty of volunteers would show up for the task I bet);)

[natpat]

Personally, I vote no - I have found so many fixes, or links to pages that are updated on them, and quite a lot of the information is still in date.

Just my 2 cents.

[tubunu]

Come on, archives contain a wealth of useful information, even if outdated! How about closing it to unregistered visitors to the site?

[Noo 2 Ubuntoo]

I vote for Archives to remain in public view because they are useful. I've found old fixes in the Archives for problems I've encountered so there must be some things in Linux Ubuntu that haven't changed much in years.

That's not a criticism - simply illuminating the fact that the "Archives" are still current and fit for purpose, or at least no less fit for purpose then some recent threads I've read.

[Jose Catre-Vandis]

Damn, just voted Yes by mistake :( Hope I don't do this on May 5th )

Anyway, keep the archive available, there is loads of valuable stuff there, especially cli information

[brentini]

This is just yet another disappointing decision from Ubuntu lately. Why would you delete archives that greatly make up the knowledge base?

If they were talking about the wiki or the help documentation, that is one thing. But to wipe out old forum posts is crazy. There are far too many scenarios that the wiki/help do not cover and the forums have been a great help to the community.

As far as the official documentation, I find that greatly lacking. Perhaps Ubuntu should focus on refining that and let the users on the forum worry about that.

I have strongly considered taking the plunge to Fedora for a while now. Perhaps now is the time. Ubuntu is becoming a major disappointment to me and I see this trend globally.

But I have loved this OS for years and have had lots of fun with it. The community rocks! It is the executive decisions form Canonical that bother me.

Anyway, best regards, love you guys in the community! Keep is strong for the good of all!


Brentini

[akand074]

I voted to remove them. Honestly, sure there is some info, but for the most part a lot of it no longer applies or works. Which I mean wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for every time I google an Ubuntu problem I'm having all the results are from 2007 and older ubuntu forum posts that are often not useful at all. I'd rather search results give me new ones pref 2010+ but even 2009+ as I'm sure they exist.

[forrestcupp]

I voted to remove them. Honestly, sure there is some info, but for the most part a lot of it no longer applies or works. Which I mean wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for every time I google an Ubuntu problem I'm having all the results are from 2007 and older ubuntu forum posts that are often not useful at all. I'd rather search results give me new ones pref 2010+ but even 2009+ as I'm sure they exist.

They'd probably still come up because of Google's archives.

[ubudog]

They'd probably still come up because of Google's archives.

For a while, I guess.

[IndyGunFreak]

It's still going to take up the same amount of space, right? I found a lot of my solutions in the archives, and I'm sure plenty of other people have.

Same here, I've found lots of answers by googling, and it hitting on an archive in this forum.

[dag729]

It would be ideal, IMO, if some of this gems in the archives were converted from the Forums -> Ubuntu wiki.

wiki pages are easier to maintain.

I totally agree on this: but, if the question is just to have the archive or haven't at all, I'll vote to keep it as long as possible.

[Spyderkid]

Why don't you just filter out any things older than 10.04?

[mips]

Of course, you know how it is. :P

Either way I don't really care, there's always the Arch Wiki :biggrin: