Group Effort Petition Nvidia about Optimus Linux drivers

[nynoah]

I am currently in the market to buy a new laptop. But the whole mess with Nvidia not releasing drivers for Optimus tech is making me fearful. Which I am sure worries many fellow Ubuntu users too. I decided to write to Nvidia and let them know why they are making a mistake by not supporting Linux users. Because, I know that I am the "smart" computer guy who advises all my friends what buy for computers. Don't support me, I will not buy Nvidia...... and I will advise all my friends who ask not to either. So by not supporting the Linux community, they are killing sales to a lot of other customers who ask me for advice. Corporations only know money.....

Here is a cut and paste of what I wrote to Nvidia. I hope others do the same too. If you do and feel inclined, post what you wrote to them too. Internet search engines will eventually pick it up too.


I am writing as a consumer to let Nvidia know that they might lose a sale. I have used countless Nvidia products over the years. Dating as far back as 1999 or something. I am also an Ubuntu Linux user. Due to the issue of Nvidia not releasing drivers to the linux community for laptops with Optimus tech, I will be forced to chose ATI. Please do not forget the Linux community. You may feel we are a small market segment. But we are also a well informed one. I am the go to guy for all computer knowledge by all my friends. I would wager to say that many other Linux users are too. We influence countless other people what to buy. If you don't release an Optimus driver to the Linux people. I will be forced to choose to buy something else. I will also advise other people not to buy Nvidia. So this is a snowball effect. I won't buy and I will tell everyone I know who knows less than me....... oh a 1000 people or so on my Face Book page to avoid Nvidia.

In the age of social networking, Nvidia would be wise to keep its reputation with the power users in good standing.

Sincerly...... a person who wants to buy Nvidia but can't now.

Noah


Here is the link to Nvidias page where you can write to them too.
http://www.nvidia.com/page/support.html Then click on "customer feedback" then top left of the page Submit issue

I hope people are courteous, please don't be abusive, use profanity or the like.. But please let them know that you are not happy.

Hopefully Nvidia will see fit to once again support us as they have in the past. All we are asking for is some source code for us to make it work. Is that too much to ask for?

The more people that write, the better chance we have. Lets help ourselves win Nvidia over.

Thanks
Noah

[del_diablo]

I find this to be amusing.
What you will drag on will not even be a droplet in their earnings. You could stop perhaps 2000 people at max? 2000 people is not money in this marked.
They won't budge for such a silly argument.
They would have budged partially for a firm that would have bought 200-300 or 2000-3000 dedicated GPUs per 1-2 years, if they spesifically also bought tech support.
Nvidia is not just some small silly local firm that struggles to keep itself a float, it is just another corrupt large corporation by this point.
And I am writing this because it is true, and I feel like spreading desperation to you.

[Welly Wu]

I own an ASUS N61JV-X2 notebook PC with nVIDIA GeForce GT 325M and nVIDIA Optimus technology. It will require a major rewrite of the Ubuntu and nVIDIA driver code bases to support Optimus technology. I doubt that it will happen at any time soon.

One day, nVIDIA Optimus technology will be old hat and complaints such as those posted by the original poster will be bemusing at best.

[dh04000]

I put a "more rational complaint" into their system.

"Dear Whom This Concerns,

I'm not going to bore you with a long winded speech about how I'm mad, sad, or frustrated about the lack of optimus support for linux based operating systems. I'm simply not going to buy any optimus containing laptops, because I can not use your product without optimus support. Support optimus for linux or lose my sale on a soon-in-the-future-laptop and more importantly lose sales for your "partners" such as Acer, HP, Dell, ect, whom may reconsider the value of putting your hardware in their products.

Thank you,
*****"




Cheers

[nynoah]

Thanks Dh04000.....

The other guy.... well, if we all gave up like he did, the US would be still Britain.

[kk0sse54]

People have been complaining for a while now and nvidia has pretty much been saying that it's not currently feasible due to the complexity to implement such a feature in Xorg. However optimus support on linux is actually one of the GSoC projects this year http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTIyMQ. This is probably wishful thinking but hopefully we'll see the PRIME project moving beyond just a proof of concept.

[del_diablo]

The other guy.... well, if we all gave up like he did, the US would be still Britain.

I think you should read up on history. Because it not as a easy as a random crackpot without influence suddenly convincing his friends to start drinking coffee instead tea.
What I am saying is what you are doing is silly and unrealistic.
You need some "hand" to force Nvidia to budge, because they got no reason to bugde. If you could have started a international "Nvidia sucks" campaign which would have reached over half the world, Nvidia would have budged.
Ask this question: How do you convince a ludricus large amount of blind consumers to stop buying Nvidia?

[slackthumbz]

Nvidia support for linux has always been fairly piecemeal. I, for one, am just going to stick to intel and ATI hardware. The only thing that will change Nvidias mind is for significant segment of their target market to vote with their wallets and buy other brands.

Let's be serious here, we're not a significant sector of the nvidia market and as ATI has shown at least some commitment to providing drivers and opening their specs they are clearly the better option for linux users to go to.

Sitting around writing whiny letters to nvidia isn't going to change anything.

[Shining Arcanine]

I put a "more rational complaint" into their system.

"Dear Whom This Concerns,

I'm not going to bore you with a long winded speech about how I'm mad, sad, or frustrated about the lack of optimus support for linux based operating systems. I'm simply not going to buy any optimus containing laptops, because I can not use your product without optimus support. Support optimus for linux or lose my sale on a soon-in-the-future-laptop and more importantly lose sales for your "partners" such as Acer, HP, Dell, ect, whom may reconsider the value of putting your hardware in their products.

Thank you,
*****"




Cheers

I think you mean angry. Saying that you will not be mad is somewhat odd considering that it is rare for people to lose their sanity upon encountering an issue.

[dh04000]

I think you mean angry. Saying that you will not be mad is somewhat odd considering that it is rare for people to lose their sanity upon encountering an issue.

Yes, angry is a better word for sure. Are you from the USA? If not, then know that mad and angry are interchangeable in the USA. Mad also carries the meaning of insanity, depending on how you use it. But, yes, angry was the word I was looking for. I didn't do a draft or spell check my email to Nvidia. Didn't feel like a good use of my time.

[chinoto]

Don't petitions usually consist of a list of people? (Serious question, don't actually know for sure) You should try what GNU/Linux users are doing with Netflix: http://www.petitiononline.com/Linflix/petition.html
I am in a somewhat similar position as far as influencing other people because they usually go to me for computer advice. I prefer nVidia over ATI, but if ATI carries this feature I'll definitely consider them. Battery life isn't a biggy for me though since I'm usually plugged in and just use battery for sleep mode on the way to another location. Might be nice to reduce the heat output though (assuming it is mostly from the GPU rather than CPU).

[beew]

. I prefer nVidia over ATI, but if ATI carries this feature I'll definitely consider them. Battery life isn't a biggy for me though since I'm usually plugged in and just use battery for sleep mode on the way to another location. Might be nice to reduce the heat output though (assuming it is mostly from the GPU rather than CPU).

You are wrong. I couldn't care less if Optimus just doesn't work for Linux, like you I am plugged in most of the time. But the problem is that if a laptop is Optimus enabled you would not be able to use the Nvidia card at all even if there is driver support. Instead you can only use the onboard Intel card even though you have paid for the Nvidiia one. But worse, the Nvidia card will still be draining your battery even though you can't use it.

Currently there are some laptops which allow you to disable Optimus and use the Nvidia card through a BIOS switch, but most Optimus enabled laptops don't have that feature.

It is a biggy becuase as more newer laptops come with Optimus that could come a time that Linux users would simply be unable to use Nvidia cards on laptops (except for very high ended Nvidia cards that don't work with Optimus, but that will cost a lot more)

So I am not really hoping them to support gpu switching through Optimus, but implement a way for Linux user to use the Nvidia card on laptops by opting out of Optimus.

I am happy that this thread exists. I will write something up soon for sure. I would like to ask others to write as well.

[Starks]

Supporting Optimus and having a functional GPU driver for Optimus notebooks are two completely different goals.

Nvidia hasn't released a GPU driver because the Xserver simply can't support it and because Nvidia doesn't see the aforementioned goals as separate.

[beew]

Supporting Optimus and having a functional GPU driver for Optimus notebooks are two completely different goals.

Nvidia hasn't released a GPU driver because the Xserver simply can't support it and because Nvidia doesn't see the aforementioned goals as separate.

Same or different, the thing is that Linux laptop users are toasted. If something isn't done, Linux laptop users may be shut out from Nvidia even though the cards are actually supported, that is pretty serious as Nvidia,unfortunately, is the only performance graphic card that works well with Linux (ATI may catch up but not at the moment, Intel is not really what you would call performance card) It would be a greatest show stopper for Linux adoption as well. By definition, poor graphic means no show.

[Starks]

This David Airlie's current progress.

http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/airlied/drm-testing.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/drm-nvidia-switch

In addition to that code, every portion of the graphics stacks has to be patched. kernel drm, intel, mesa, xserver, etc.

But seriously, this won't work cleanly unless X gets rewritten.

[EarthMind]

It's a shame that they don't support the GT 5xxM cards under linux. I especially bought a laptop with an nvidia card for the CUDA and the Linux support. It looks like I'll have to return it...

I also sent them feedback.

[jwbrase]

Supporting Optimus and having a functional GPU driver for Optimus notebooks are two completely different goals.

Nvidia hasn't released a GPU driver because the Xserver simply can't support it and because Nvidia doesn't see the aforementioned goals as separate.

They still ought to at least release a dummy driver that disables the feature without totally disabling the card.

[QuimNuss]

+1 for a dummy driver that turns up the card usable. Anybody got it substantially over 1024x768.

I also sent a message to nvidia, but I don't think that'll change anything. I'm trying to bring the laptop back too.

[gnomeuser]

I somehow feel it would be more productive and more likely to produce the desired outcome to estimate how much development time is needed. Say, 3 months, at what 60.000 USD a month for a skilled programmer. 180.000 USD, I'd pledge 100$, what with kickstarter proving crowdfunding works over and over, I think if we get the PR right, we can do this.

(I am not though afflicted by Optimus hardware but I am all for Linux working out of the box for everyone)

[beew]

I somehow feel it would be more productive and more likely to produce the desired outcome to estimate how much development time is needed. Say, 3 months, at what 60.000 USD a month for a skilled programmer. 180.000 USD, I'd pledge 100$, what with kickstarter proving crowdfunding works over and over, I think if we get the PR right, we can do this.

(I am not though afflicted by Optimus hardware but I am all for Linux working out of the box for everyone)

I am willing to pledge $100 as well if I can contribute to such a campaign.

I think decent graphic support on Linux laptops is very important to its wider adoption(or at least to prevent it from dropping, which will happen if Nvidia pulls the plug on Linux laptop support, which is what Optimus really is for Linux laptop users)

[dh04000]

I somehow feel it would be more productive and more likely to produce the desired outcome to estimate how much development time is needed. Say, 3 months, at what 60.000 USD a month for a skilled programmer. 180.000 USD, I'd pledge 100$, what with kickstarter proving crowdfunding works over and over, I think if we get the PR right, we can do this.

(I am not though afflicted by Optimus hardware but I am all for Linux working out of the box for everyone)


Computer programmers get $180,000 USD/yr???

Wow, I'm going to get a PhD and not make nearly that much. More like $100,000 after 6-10 years.......

[gnomeuser]

Computer programmers get $180,000 USD/yr???

Wow, I'm going to get a PhD and not make nearly that much. More like $100,000 after 6-10 years.......

Number taken straight from my behind (well random googling). Poin being, even if we need a guru with secret weird knowledge which might require a lot of cash.. it is no bigger than what is routinely done through crowdfunding, and there are a lot of us Linux users.

[beew]

They still ought to at least release a dummy driver that disables the feature without totally disabling the card.

Or they can make an option to enable Optimus in Windows (say in control panel) instead of making it the unchangeable default. I have read some complaints by Windows users who would prefer a performance mode (so they can use the Nvidia card all the time without it being routed to the Intel chip automatically)

[NightwishFan]

How do you convince a ludricus large amount of blind consumers to stop buying Nvidia?

Exactly. I just will not buy something with optimus and not worry about it. :)

[beew]

Exactly. I just will not buy something with optimus and not worry about it. :)

Problem is most new laptops with a Nvidia card come with Optimus and with Optimus you simply cannot use the Nvidia graphic card at all. I don't care if they don't support switching gpu in Linux but I think Linux users should be able to at least use the card! So basically you are saying don't buy any laptop with a Nvidia graphic card. This is not a very appealing option unless you are OK with the situation "Linux = crappy graphics on laptops" (sadly Intel is not up to snuff for most advanced features and ATI is just, well, look at the number of forum posts by people having problems)

And I think it is also going to hurt Linux adoption in a big way when people buy these laptops and try to install Linux on them and get burnt (all the parts can be Linux compatible but the whole thing goes busted with Optimus enabled) They are pretty common and probably otherwise good bargains.

[NightwishFan]

I do see what you mean, dont get me wrong. It is just I see no way to convince them so I will just avoid and not recommend them. Perhaps soon our technology will catch up.

[Ranko Kohime]

Concerning this matter, are the Nvidia card actual, removable cards, like they would be on desktops, or are they integrated on the motherboard?

If the former, would removing the card allow the use of the integrated graphics exclusively?

I ask because a laptop I am/was considering only has an Nvidia card as an option, and the machines' CPU performance is of much greater importance than it's graphics performance.

[beew]

Concerning this matter, are the Nvidia card actual, removable cards, like they would be on desktops, or are they integrated on the motherboard?

If the former, would removing the card allow the use of the integrated graphics exclusively?

I ask because a laptop I am/was considering only has an Nvidia card as an option, and the machines' CPU performance is of much greater importance than it's graphics performance.

Well if you don't care about graphic performance there is no point in buying a Nvidia laptop at all, it would be cheaper to get one with just a Intel card. Have you tried to return your computer?

Yes, there appears to be some hacks to turn off the Nvidia card
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1657660

It basically turns the Nvidia card into an expensive paper weight (which at least doesn't drain your power) and accept poor graphic performance (for the money you pay). This may be the least bad option considering all the worse alternatives, but it is not really an acceptable solution to the problem. So if you can return the laptop it wouldn't worth the troubles.

[Ranko Kohime]

Well if you don't care about graphic performance there is no point in buying a Nvidia laptop at all, it would be cheaper to get one with just a Intel card. Have you tried to return your computer?
I don't have one yet. It's just that all of the laptops that meet my performance and hardware criterion have Optimus cards. :/

Now, when you speak of poor graphics performance, I assume you mean the graphics performance is limited to the capabilities of integrated graphics, and the presence of the dedicated card would not cause further degradation?

I could live with that circumstance. The specific model I'm looking at has a FHD display, which I consider necessary to my work after using one with my Mac Mini. It's also practically the only one in my price range that has this level of display.

[zer010]

I'm kinda surprised by the number of posts that are of a defeatist attitude. The "one person can't make a difference", "our numbers are too small, so why try" and "they won't listen, so I'll accept it" posts are truly disheartening.... *smh*

At least there were some that had some ideas and some that are actively trying to do something about a potential Linux neutering "feature". The crowdfunding idea is interesting, but I'm not sure how that could feasibly be implemented. The online petition sounds like it could at least give a central voice to those who are concerned. As some have posted, even what sounds like temporary fixes(Optimus switch) could look more attractive to nvidia versus them having to rewrite everything. If fact, if all of these methods were utilized, it could perhaps turn a hope into a reality.

Even though some might think it's useless, I think that I'll do my part and give them my two cents.... at least I will have tried....

[UnD3RsC0R3]

Yo! Its true that the single complaints are a drop in the ocean but also dont forget that alot of the pissed off people by these problems don't report them. Any company with some brains can conclude that the number of customers with the problems are not the same as the number of complaints they got. Even if my complaint is not taken into account, someday it might be the drop that overflows the bucked, so ill keep making noise. Either way, if they don't do anything, ill have to do it myself. Reverse engineering ftw.

As i sent it:
"Hello.
I currently have a problem with laptops with optimus tecnology. The discrete graphics in linux can't be used, and the integrated does not offer sufficient performance to work with it. I would like to have some support for optimus technology in linux, or at least have some "shortcut" to disable either intel or nvidia graphics processor. Being my main job research and develpment in the field of computational geometry, i have to use linux with minimum 3d graphical capabilities. I hope "you" (Nvidia) will address this problem soon, and at least provide some kind of solution, even if not userfriendly to implement.

Best regards,
Pedro Rocha."

So, keep on screaming. If you stay quiet, some day nvidia might become one of those corporations that impose limits to the use of their hardware according to their intent. Forbid "the way its not meant to be played".

[mips]

I don't care if they don't support switching gpu in Linux but I think Linux users should be able to at least use the card!

Problem is the two are interlinked. The Intel outputs the display while the nvidia does rendering. If you completely disable the Intel you wont be able to output the display.

[UnD3RsC0R3]

Hmm, i've been diggin arround, and i have a question for anyone that has a better insight in the linux graphics system. Is it possible to load intel and nvidia drivers at the same time, configuring them like in a multiple display system, and rerouting the output buffer from the nvidia card into normal ram, like a virtual buffer, while maintaining the intel igp buffer on the current display? If that would be possible, then maybe any graphics card installed could have its own virtual buffer, and the user would select at will the one that would be assigned to the main screen. I dont really know how linux graphics hierarchy really works, but im trying to get info into it... Btw, wouldnt also asking intel to give a hand with their drivers also be benificial since its their igp that handles the buffer?

[gradinaruvasile]

This optimus technology probably comes because intel refuses to make chips without graphic controllers forcing everyone to let their integrated chips in and make do with the rest as they can...
I dont think that this optimus thingie is all that good only because of the 2 cards, probably one dedicated and properly tuned gpu would be just as good.

Best would have been an option in the BIOS that permits the permanent usage of one of the cards or let them in optimus mode.

(I have seen something like this on a Lenovo with Ati+Intel cards. No issues in Linux with that. But maybe optimus works differently. )

[mrmojo62]

i just sent in my complaint ticket to nvidia. it reads as follows:

to whom it may concern

i would just like to register my complaint about the lack of native support for optimus in linux needless to say this will cause me to change allegiance and start buying and recommending laptops with the ATI graphics card installed. i'm not sure why a mass exodus of unix-like users like me is a part of your business plan, because as i understand it, you have already lost apple, but i'm sure the brain trust at the top of nividia knows better than i. i know that you have already heard from others in the linux family and will hear from more as time goes on and i urge you reconsider the "we have no plans to support linux" in optimus stance and put some effort into getting optimus to work for EVERYONE, not just windows users.

thank you for your time

i'm sure they won't respond but i put it out there.

[mrmojo62]

here's a thought

we start sending nvidia the bill for having to install windows to get the drivers to work properly

that might get their attention!

[anthony62490]

So by not supporting the Linux community, they are killing sales to a lot of other customers who ask me for advice. Corporations only know money.....

If that were true, they would jump right on Linux support. The problem here is that Nvidia DOESN'T know money. If they did, this thread wouldn't exist.

[patrici0]

There's a couple of efforts that seem to show a brighter future for those trying to get optimus support on Linux.

Please check the Bumblebee/Ironhide projects on github.


More info:
http://linux-hybrid-graphics.blogspot.com/

Cheers.

[hawthornso23]

Um ... my Dell E6510 is running on the nvidia card. The integrated i915 graphics onchip with the intel i5 processor doesn't seem to be functioning so sadly I can't play with bumblebee. But it isn't true that a laptop with optimus support can't use nvidia in linux.

[foutes]

I use Ironhide on my Eee PC 1215n


https://github.com/MrMEEE/ironhide

[FatalMessenger]

I use Ironhide on my Eee PC 1215n


https://github.com/MrMEEE/ironhide

There's also the Bumblebee-Project, which I found after about a minute on google.

https://github.com/Bumblebee-Project/Bumblebee

It sounds like it should work.

[BigCityCat]

My intel drivers work out of the box without any proprietary software installed.

[kaldor]

Nvidia's recent attitude towards Linux (Optimus, Wayland, Nouveau) is the reason why I switched to AMD products. AMD is just as good as Nvidia these days.

[disabledaccount]

I think that Optimus "technology" is generally failure - not because it don't work with linux.
IMO Optimus was created as an effect of some NDA between Intel and nVidia - they have something that atracts non-tech customers and looks great in advertisements: 2 GFX cards, theoretically longer battery life, flexible performance/power saving, etc while facts are a bit different:
1. ATI approach is **WAY** better than OPTIMUS: 1 gfx card with extremely low power consumption due to extremely low clocking of both memory and GPU in 2D mode - apparently nv products are not as good in saving the power - that's why they use crappy, but low power intel gfx. 1 card ensures problem-free operation, without need to experiment with new BIOSes, new drivers - and this is a fact: many problems with OPTIMUS are still reported by windows users even though this is main OS supported by NV/Intel

2. Battery Life problem is in fact very simple: You have good, expensive, long-life Li-Poly unit that can sustain the power even for 8h **OR** You have cheap crappy Li-Ion that will die in max 2years and when its new it can work for *up to* 4h, but in practice 2h-3h and less with every charge cycle.

I have no problem with OPTIMUS: I'm just recommending NV-only, Intel-only or ATI-only based laptops if someone ask me.

[foutes]

There's also the Bumblebee-Project, which I found after about a minute on google.

https://github.com/Bumblebee-Project/Bumblebee

It sounds like it should work.

Ironhide is a off shoot of mreeebumblebee ,so is the bumblebee project.bumblebee had some bugs due to new nvidia drivers and trying to port to several distros so it spit to bumblebee project which works but leaves the nvidia card on all the time so bad battery life.Ironhide turns the nvidia card off and on so you get good battery life which is why I use it.

Origingal bumblebee site which is considered unstable now.https://github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee

Bumblebee project which is considered stable but has to power saveing.https://github.com/Bumblebee-Project/Bumblebee

Ironhide which is mreee's new baby which is just for Ubuntu no other distro yet.https://github.com/MrMEEE/ironhide