Another moral issue(real one)

[jfreak_]

Suppose you are in a class of say 30 people, all of whom are equally talented. A third person(not from your class) tells only you about a lucrative job opening only for one person from your class. Obviously if you keep mum and apply you will get the job, however if you decide to tell your classmates, they will all apply and your own chances will be severely diminished. What would you do and why?

[Jagoly]

Take the Job. If I have the chance, I'll take it. Some non-existent 3rd person will probably give them Jobs anyway.

[deconstrained]

If this third party only notified one person of the position, then it is either incompetent as an HR agent (if affiliated with the company) or interested in that one person specifically (they'd advertise to everyone and pick the best applicant if they weren't). Either way, to me at least, (1) it seems too good to be true, (2) the notified person is not necessarily obligated tell others; that's the job of the people who are recruiting.

[Grenage]

I'd not personally tell them; you have to look out for yourself when it comes to getting a decent job. You don't want to trample over people to get one, but that's hardly the same thing as advertising to others that it's available.

[slackthumbz]

Take the job.

Advertising a position is the responsibility of recruiters, not applicants.

[Paqman]

The job market is competitive, not collaborative. Why would you give up a competitive advantage like that?

[NovaAesa]

Take the job, your classmates would do exactly the same.

[RiceMonster]

I'd also like to add that I doubt anyone would be mad at you if you take the job.

[piquat]

I'd also like to add that I doubt anyone would be mad at you if you take the job.

Taken a step farther... it might make the other people in the class step up their game a bit.

If I were one of the other 29, I'd ask myself why I didn't get picked and what I could change to better my chances in the future.

[t0p]

I can hardly believe this question has been posted. And I certainly don't see why it's a "moral issue"; unless you've entered into a pact with your classmates about information sharing.

Don't prevaricate or ponder. Take the job. Your classmates' employment future is nothing to do with you (unless you have entered into the bizarre pact outlined above - in which case you're all a bunch of loons and should be locked up somewhere).

[frup]

It's not your job to advertise the job. It's also your primary job to look after yourself, especially where the gain/loss to you and someone else is exactly the same.

On the other hand, if you're told to let everyone know, and the only reason you're getting the job is because you didn't let everyone else know, then perhaps you have done something wrong, but on the scale of things it is such a minor inconsequential dilemma that it's probably not worth you sweating about.

If there is one seat on a plane and you need to get to somewhere, should you have to tell everyone else who wants to get there that there is a seat available before you purchase the ticket?

[Sean Moran]

Suppose you are in a class of say 30 people, all of whom are equally talented. A third person(not from your class) tells only you about a lucrative job opening only for one person from your class. Obviously if you keep mum and apply you will get the job, however if you decide to tell your classmates, they will all apply and your own chances will be severely diminished. What would you do and why?
If that third person had thought that there was someone else better suited to the job then they would have told them and not me. I'd ask a few questions and if they only delivered thick-pan pizza, but not thin-pan, I'd let the class know about the lucrative position.
:popcorn:

[jfreak_]

No, the third person was not related to the that company in any way. It was just by sheer luck that he told me, it could have been any of the other 29. What I am thinking is how can I look at their faces later knowing that the main fact that I got the job was because I was selfish enough not to tell anyone about it.

Also I am only around 21 and have never faced unemployment or any such problems. Is this fact affecting how I am looking at things? Or should I toughen up for the big,bad,mean world?

[sydbat]

I can hardly believe this question has been posted.It is a direct result of the "no one is a loser" ideology that has become prevalent in society. Kids are being taught that "everyone wins" when playing soccer, for example, resulting in the lack of knowledge that competition and winning and getting ahead in real life are a human driving force.

[wizard10000]

This happened to me today. I applied for a rather lucrative position and also told a friend about the position. My friend's qualifications are about equal to mine and I may very well end up competing against her, but I'm a firm believer that if I continue to do the right thing the right thing will continue to happen.

[Grenage]

This happened to me today. I applied for a rather lucrative position and also told a friend about the position. My friend's qualifications are about equal to mine and I may very well end up competing against her, but I'm a firm believer that if I continue to do the right thing the right thing will continue to happen.

I have to ask; why the hell do you think that telling competitors about a job you're going for is 'the right thing to do'?

[wizard10000]

I have to ask; why the hell do you think that telling competitors about a job you're going for is 'the right thing to do'?

Simple. The competitor is a friend and she'd do the same for me - if I can't get the job on my own then I'd just as soon she got it. If she's better qualified than me then she deserves it - and who knows? If she gets it I'd be at the top of her hire list ;)

I personally think I'm the better qualified candidate, and if you're not the best qualified candidate you have no business interviewing for the job anyway :D

[Paqman]

Or should I toughen up for the big,bad,mean world?

Yep, the job market is ruthless.

[Grenage]

Simple. The competitor is a friend and she'd do the same for me - if I can't get the job on my own then I'd just as soon she got it. If she's better qualified than me then she deserves it - and who knows? If she gets it I'd be at the top of her hire list ;)

I personally think I'm the better qualified candidate, and if you're not the best qualified candidate you have no business interviewing for the job anyway :D

There's always someone better than you, so you'd best start handing out fliers in the street. ;)

[Tristam Green]

It is a direct result of the "no one is a loser" ideology that has become prevalent in society. Kids are being taught that "everyone wins" when playing soccer, for example, resulting in the lack of knowledge that competition and winning and
getting ahead in real life are a human driving force.

ding ding ding


I have to ask; why the hell do you think that telling competitors about a job you're going for is 'the right thing to do'?

Grenage, tell us how you really feel!

[Sean Moran]

Yep, the job market is ruthless.
Yes, and human resources people make insurance and used-car salesmen look like mixtures of Einstein and St. Peter but the same goes for any so-called lucrative position: If you need the money, get on your knees and bend over, otherwise tell the rest of the class about it.

[wizard10000]

There's always someone better than you, so you'd best start handing out fliers in the street. ;)

Nah. Being currently employed with what I'd call an excellent salary for the area the worst that could happen is I'd be right where I'm at - and where I'm at ain't bad ;)

[t0p]

if you're not the best qualified candidate you have no business interviewing for the job anyway :D

What an interesting world you live in. You must invite me over some time.

in the meantime, the rest of us will continue interviewing for jobs, regardless of whether we consider ourselves "the best qualified candidate". At the end of the day,it is the employer who makes the decision who to hire. And he might not put so much emphasis on qualifications. Remember, he's got to work with the guy he recruits. Your winning personality may be more important than qualifications and experience.

[forrestcupp]

Take the job.

Advertising a position is the responsibility of recruiters, not applicants.Good point.


No, the third person was not related to the that company in any way. It was just by sheer luck that he told me, it could have been any of the other 29.
If that's true, then you don't have any more chance than any other student just because you know about it. If the company is planning on hiring one student, and they aren't the ones who told you, then it doesn't make any difference in the world that you know about it. The only difference it could possibly make is that it might motivate you to try harder in class. It's not like the company itself is singling you out.

[Tristam Green]

Nah. Being currently employed with what I'd call an excellent salary for the area the worst that could happen is I'd be right where I'm at - and where I'm at ain't bad ;)

...and thus did hilarity ensue at the desk of Tristam Green.

Brother, unless you work for yourself alone, you are absolutely 100% replaceable. Don't ever think otherwise, because there will always be someone somewhere who can do what you do, and probably do it for less expense.

[wizard10000]

What an interesting world you live in. You must invite me over some time.

in the meantime, the rest of us will continue interviewing for jobs, regardless of whether we consider ourselves "the best qualified candidate". At the end of the day,it is the employer who makes the decision who to hire. And he might not put so much emphasis on qualifications. Remember, he's got to work with the guy he recruits. Your winning personality may be more important than qualifications and experience.

I've been a hiring manager for quite a few years although I am not one now. I've never hired someone on personality over qualifications for a position higher than helpdesk. Personalitywise all I care about is that the candidate can remain professional - and that involves being able to work effectively as part of a team. If they can't and if corrective action doesn't work then we show them the door ;)

I don't think I expressed my point real well, though. It's the hiring manager's responsibility to hire the best fit for the company - it's that candidate's responsibility to convince the hiring manager that he is indeed the best fit - that's what I meant when I said if you're not the best you shouldn't be interviewing ;)

Sorry I wasn't more clear.

cheers -

[Paqman]

At the end of the day,it is the employer who makes the decision who to hire. And he might not put so much emphasis on qualifications. Remember, he's got to work with the guy he recruits. Your winning personality may be more important than qualifications and experience.

This.

Your CV/resume is only there to get you to as far as an interview. But once you're there, it's pretty much down to your personality and how you come across. People hire someone they'd can imagine themselves working with, and a lot of that comes down to whether or not they like you.

I've got jobs before that I was underqualified for, but where one of the interviewers took a shine to me. That can be awesome when it happens, being thrown in the deep end really gives you a chance to step up a gear.

[uRock]

I'd take the job without thinking twice. If I didn't want the job, then I'd pass it on, maybe.

[wizard10000]

...and thus did hilarity ensue at the desk of Tristam Green.

Brother, unless you work for yourself alone, you are absolutely 100% replaceable. Don't ever think otherwise, because there will always be someone somewhere who can do what you do, and probably do it for less expense.

Nah. I work for Your Federal Government.

:D

[Grenage]

I've never hired someone on personality over qualifications for a position higher than helpdesk.

Really? I have; I'll take aptitude and attitude over experience. I'd probably think differently if I had a brain tumor and the two candidates were a keen toddler with plastic tools, and a trained doctor who acted like a tool.

[uRock]

Really? I have; I'll take aptitude and attitude over experience. I'd probably think differently if I had a brain tumor and the two candidates were a keen toddler with plastic tools, and a trained doctor who acted like a tool.

+1 We see people here claiming 30 years experience with IT that can't figure out some of the easiest of tasks. I'd rather hire an open minded individual right out of college, than take a complacent veteran who "thinks" he/she knows it all.

[wizard10000]

Really? I have; I'll take aptitude and attitude over experience. I'd probably think differently if I had a brain tumor and the two candidates were a keen toddler with plastic tools, and a trained doctor who acted like a tool.

:D

For me it depends on the position. When I was a hiring manager I'd have agreed with you for a helpdesk position or *maybe* for a junior DBA or LAN admin but not for, say an Exchange administrator ;)

[Sean Moran]

+1 We see people here claiming 30 years experience with IT that can't figure out some of the easiest of tasks. I'd rather hire an open minded individual right out of college, than take a complacent veteran who "thinks" he/she knows it all.
After 30 years, from Vic20s to green-screen 8086s and Amstrads and all that DOS 3.1 and stuff, us veterans are not here to solve the easy problems to do with the latest fads in technology. I can only help with the difficult problems. I'll leave the easy problems to those better qualified than I am.

[wizard10000]

After 30 years, from Vic20s to green-screen 8086s and Amstrads and all that DOS 3.1 and stuff, us veterans are not here to solve the easy problems to do with the latest fads in technology. I can only help with the difficult problems. I'll leave the easy problems to those better qualified than I am.

Excellent.

:D

[Grenage]

After 30 years, from Vic20s to green-screen 8086s and Amstrads and all that DOS 3.1 and stuff, us veterans are not here to solve the easy problems to do with the latest fads in technology. I can only help with the difficult problems. I'll leave the easy problems to those better qualified than I am.

That's also another way of saying 'I can't keep up with modern trends'; difficult is a subjective term. That's not meant to be insulting, I feel the same way all the time.

[Sean Moran]

That's also another way of saying 'I can't keep up with modern trends'; difficult is a subjective term.
The true meaning: I boycotted Windows XP in 2001. That is the true meaning.

[dmizer]

No, the third person was not related to the that company in any way. It was just by sheer luck that he told me, it could have been any of the other 29. What I am thinking is how can I look at their faces later knowing that the main fact that I got the job was because I was selfish enough not to tell anyone about it.

Also I am only around 21 and have never faced unemployment or any such problems. Is this fact affecting how I am looking at things? Or should I toughen up for the big,bad,mean world?

There is absolutely nothing for you to feel guilty about. The two biggest reasons people get a job are 1) being in the right place at the right time and 2) knowing the right people.

However lucky it might have been, you were in the right place at the right time, your classmates were not.

As has been said by others, your classmates would not have thought twice about taking the job themselves given the same opportunity. This is not a moral issue despite the fact that it may make you feel guilty. The simple fact is that even given absolute ideal circumstances, not everyone in that class will even get a job once they graduate.

If opportunity presents itself ... don't ask questions (moral or otherwise).

[wizard10000]

That's also another way of saying 'I can't keep up with modern trends'; difficult is a subjective term.

Um - no.

That's a way of saying I've been here long enough that I'm now steering the ship - the folks who are more qualified are doing the rowing :D

[Grenage]

Um - no.

That's a way of saying I've been here long enough that I'm now steering the ship - the folks who are more qualified are doing the rowing :D

A ship that's sailing off-topic. ;)

[wizard10000]

A ship that's sailing off-topic. ;)

I never said I could steer :D

But it's been an interesting conversation. Thanks :)

[Sean Moran]

I never said I could steer :D

But it's been an interesting conversation. Thanks :)
Yes we are drifting towards the rocky reefs but thanks Wizard and sorry. I was just replying to whoever mentioned that 30 year thing, because March 1981 was the month that my folks bought me my Vic20. 30 years ago, and I have mentioned that figure before, so I felt it necessry to reply, but let's get back to the topic of morality, because that's better than human resources; just the example for this thread.

The topic of this thread is altruism, not pizza delivery vacancies.

[ebasa]

NO MORAL ISSUE INVOLVED: apply for the job you have worked so hard for, this is the real world.

[Sean Moran]

NO MORAL ISSUE INVOLVED: apply for the job you have worked so hard for, this is the real world.
The moral part of the question might be most simply explained with Kohlberg's theory of morality defined in six stages, based on Piaget's work with ontogenic developmental psychology. You can find Kohlberg's references at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development) but in summary:
Children tend to learn morality as they grow, and some kids mature to adulthood without reaching the expected minimal adult stage. On the contrary, some kids grow up with higher levels of morality than average, and this is the crux of whether the student in the class would tell the other 30 about the job opening or keep it to his or herself.

That's how this is more than just a binary take it or leave it kind of thread.

[mips]

There is no issue. You have access to information others don't have, use it.

[uRock]

After 30 years, from Vic20s to green-screen 8086s and Amstrads and all that DOS 3.1 and stuff, us veterans are not here to solve the easy problems to do with the latest fads in technology. I can only help with the difficult problems. I'll leave the easy problems to those better qualified than I am.
You prove my case. What good is a veteran if I have to hire an entry level employee to do his/her work? IT is about keeping up with technology.

[Sean Moran]

You prove my case. What good is a veteran if I have to hire an entry level employee to do his/her work? IT is about keeping up with technology.
What good is a lot of salt water to a nuclear power plant?

[uRock]

What good is a lot of salt water to a nuclear power plant?

Coolant to buy time for those veteran GE people to figure out why they improperly designed a nuclear power plant on a fault line without proper back up cooling systems.

That has nothing to do with IT. IF I hire a senior IT repairmen, then him or her would have to be able to repair new and old technology, if he/she can't, then he/she is useless to the company.

[Grenage]

That's how this is more than just a binary take it or leave it kind of thread.

It's more of a morality meets business ethics thread, which is probably the only reason in got more than a single reply. In the business world, you don't let your competitors know about a lucrative tender - you tender it and hope for the best.

Morality plays a part of business ethics, but they are far from the same thing.

[daniel.cotter]

... I am only around 21 and have never faced unemployment or any such problems.

Trust me you have no responsibility to the world of down-and-outers to become one. Why would you want to give up an apparently golden opportunity that has thrust itself at you, just because someone else you know has not had a similar chance? Take what life gives you. Don't pawn your troubles off on someone else, and don't give away for free what you have been blessed with just because you think maybe you should.

There is opportunity for charitable giving, and it is an honorable thing, but it is done from a position of strength, not from our weakness or inability.

[Sean Moran]

Coolant to buy time for those veteran GE people to figure out why they improperly designed a nuclear power plant on a fault line without proper back up cooling systems.

That has nothing to do with IT. IF I hire a senior IT repairmen, then him or her would have to be able to repair new and old technology, if he/she can't, then he/she is useless to the company.
It's true that I was stronger when I was 30 than now that I'm 40, and faster in a race, but there's a little hare and tortoise in that equation, because we grow wiser if we are lucky enough to grow older, and we take a little longer to get the gist of the latest sensations when our brains aren't empty to start with, and as long as everything is fine and dandy, it's best to hire 13 year-olds who can function much more effectiuvely than oldies like me ...

... when everything is fine and dandy. When something goes wrong - when difficult situations arise - is when we realise the importance of experience over fresh-cut 'just-out-of-school' credentials.

Not to mention, with computers, on the keyboard, we become more effective and more productive as we grow older, but the older you get in computing, the wider your range of skills becomes, so you don't start typing unless you know where the partitucular road is leading.

Anyway, let's get back to the thread tiopic. It was about whether you'd let your classmates compete with yourself for the same job opportunity.

---o0o---


Technically, everything is still either 12V or 5V or 3.3V just like it always was. DC. We're just running around in circles. Nothing has really changed with hardware.

[uRock]

It's true that I was stronger when I was 30 than now that I'm 40, and faster in a race, but there's a little hare and tortoise in that equation, because we grow wiser if we are lucky enough to grow older, and we take a little longer to get the gist of the latest sensations when our brains aren't empty to start with, and as long as everything is fine and dandy, it's best to hire 13 year-olds who can function much more effectiuvely than oldies like me ...

... when everything is fine and dandy. When something goes wrong - when difficult situations arise - is when we realise the importance of experience over fresh-cut 'just-out-of-school' credentials.

Not to mention, with computers, on the keyboard, we become more effective and mopre productive as we grow older, but the older you get in computing, the wider your range of skills becomes, so you don't start typing unless you know where the partitucular road is leading.

Anyway, let's get back to the thread tiopic. It was about whether you'd let your classmates compete with yourself for the same job opportunity.

I'd hire a veteran, but he/she would have to show that he/she is still learning and being competitive and not have the attitude that says, "I know it all and I will not get my hands dirty," that I have seen.

This applies to the thread as it is very likely that the OP has one or more veteran IT(or whatever the profession is) in his/her class. I know I have had folks in their 60s in some of my classes, who were there to catch up on the latest innovations and certifications. If I were up against some of the folks in my classes, I would want to get my app in and get hired before anyone else, old or young, because I know that some employers look at experience over attitude.

Cheers,
uRock

[skytreader]

Whoa...this conversation has definitely branched off. But in response to OP:

I'd tell them. It might be idealistic of me but more competition == more challenge == more effort I'll exert == more fun. And besides, that way, if I get the job, I'd really feel that I deserve what I got.

No hard feelings. May the best man win. ;D

[Sean Moran]

I'd hire a veteran, but he/she would have to show that he/she is still learning and being competitive and not have the attitude that says, "I know it all and I will not get my hands dirty," that I have seen.

This applies to the thread as it is very likely that the OP has one or more veteran IT(or whatever the profession is) in his/her class. I know I have had folks in their 60s in some of my classes, who were there to catch up on the latest innovations and certifications. If I were up against some of the folks in my classes, I would want to get my app in and get hired before anyone else, old or young, because I know that some employers look at experience over attitude.

Cheers,
uRock
It's not about the 'know-it-all' mindset at all, and those sorts are the last ones anyone would trust when things go wrong. Experience is of no benefit until your power station gets hit by a tidal wave and the situation becomes 'diifficult' (as mentioned previously). That is when experence comes into play.

In IT, it relates to much simpler problems than tidal waves, but still significant. When you're dealing with the latest craze, and find yourself lost for an answer, sometimes that secret lies in something long forgotten before some whizkids were even born. We're talking advanced technology here, because a large part of the future is grounded on the past. Always keep a good wide range of knowledge around you, because you don't know how things might progress and how you must adapt in the future.

Now, we are most certainly offtopic at this point, so I shall go to bed to avoid further progression towards those rocky reefs. Thanks for the good discussion URock, and good luck. See you tomorrow, but let's let the thread get back on course.
):P

[jfreak_]

The moral part of the question might be most simply explained with Kohlberg's theory of morality defined in six stages, based on Piaget's work with ontogenic developmental psychology. You can find Kohlberg's references at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development) but in summary:
Children tend to learn morality as they grow, and some kids mature to adulthood without reaching the expected minimal adult stage. On the contrary, some kids grow up with higher levels of morality than average, and this is the crux of whether the student in the class would tell the other 30 about the job opening or keep it to his or herself.

That's how this is more than just a binary take it or leave it kind of thread.


Absolutely brilliant. Thanks.

[Sean Moran]

Absolutely brilliant. Thanks.
Understanding the elliptical transit of The Moon is a major task, but pales in comparison to the task of understanding seven billion human minds all stranded on the same planet. Piaget and Kohlberg seem to have worked it out a lot better than I've had time to, but it's still only science; still falsifiable and open to anyone who can understand the depths and breadths of human nature better than they.

The one greatest achievement of science was to admit that everything could be wrong.

[ebasa]

The moral part of the question might be most simply explained with Kohlberg's theory of morality defined in six stages, based on Piaget's work with ontogenic developmental psychology. You can find Kohlberg's references at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development) but in summary:
Children tend to learn morality as they grow, and some kids mature to adulthood without reaching the expected minimal adult stage. On the contrary, some kids grow up with higher levels of morality than average, and this is the crux of whether the student in the class would tell the other 30 about the job opening or keep it to his or herself.

That's how this is more than just a binary take it or leave it kind of thread.

You are assuming that others are intelligent, moral and caring and that is far from the truth. I will not go out of my way to screw anyone, but I also will not sacrifice myself to benefit others.
The rest is all mumbo-jumbo gobbedy-gook.

[Tristam Green]

Nah. I work for Your Federal Government.

:D

I don't understand why you assume that makes you feel so complacent. Government jobs are oftentimes even more volatile than private-sector jobs, especially when it comes time to cut costs.

Unless you're a military recruiter, in which case you're not really a hiring manager, are you? You'd just be a pencil-pusher behind a desk, trying to fill a monthly quota.



*edit* I take exception to "your Federal Government". If you work for "my Federal Government", then you also work for "*your* Federal Government", and as such, is "*our* Federal Government". Get off the holier-than-thou trip, unless you don't pay taxes at all, in which case it would be "*my* Federal Government", and in which other case I'd be inclined to report that there's a Federal worker in a hiring position in Michigan who would want to speak with the IRS.

[uRock]

I don't understand why you assume that makes you feel so complacent. Government jobs are oftentimes even more volatile than private-sector jobs, especially when it comes time to cut costs.
Yup! I watched the contract that was designing Yukka Mountain get the notice to let everyone go and lock the doors. Government workers are not safe from layoffs.

[Tristam Green]

Yup! I watched the contract that was designing Yukka Mountain get the notice to let everyone go and lock the doors. Government workers are not safe from layoffs.

++. When I got hired at my current job in '08, I had very similar offers (within $1k/year of each other) for this site IT administrator position, and for a Remote support admin position with a government contract.

I took the more "stable" option, despite the less money, because I know exactly what the environment for government contracts is around here.

[Cracklepop]

Suppose you are in a class of say 30 people, all of whom are equally talented. A third person(not from your class) tells only you about a lucrative job opening only for one person from your class. Obviously if you keep mum and apply you will get the job, however if you decide to tell your classmates, they will all apply and your own chances will be severely diminished. What would you do and why?
I would keep it to myself, and take the guaranteed job. There is nothing said that makes me think any of my classmates are more deserving of the job than me, and the employer will be no worse off with me, and my class as a whole will be no worse off (1 in 30 becomes employed).

[MasterNetra]

Suppose you are in a class of say 30 people, all of whom are equally talented. A third person(not from your class) tells only you about a lucrative job opening only for one person from your class. Obviously if you keep mum and apply you will get the job, however if you decide to tell your classmates, they will all apply and your own chances will be severely diminished. What would you do and why?

While yes, it would be considerate to tell them about it, but as it stands if you really need that job, your best bet is not to tell them and go forward. Its merciless out there. And as I mentioned in the other thread, currency based economies are not humane.