11.04x64:: 10 Hours with Gnome 3

[xerman]

Hello there,

I am telecommunication engineer, and quality systems manager. Have been using Ubuntu since 5.04. Before I used MsDOS, Win 3.11, Win 95, Win XP, MacOS System 6, 7, 8, 9 and MacOS X. Also SuSE 9, and in the old days, Slackware and even YellowDog for PowerPC, Solaris and some other Linux I can't recall back in University Labs. I had some programming knowledge that has faded away long time ago. I tried KDE 3 and 4, and also XFCE.

Actually I like more Gnome than any other DE. And for what I have been experiencing in the last years, the change from Gnome 2 to 3 is going to be quite bigger than the change between KDE 3 to 4, mostly due to paradigm issues, and change in usage.

Changes always frighten people. Small changes almost no one notices, but big changes create controversy which is a good thing because with those discussions the changes improve. It is clear that not everybody is going to like Gnome 3, just as not everybody likes KDE 4 and not everybody likes Unity, XFCE, and so on. Paying attention to the ones who like Gnome 3 is good, but also is good to pay attention to those who don't as they are the ones that could improve better (those who do constructive critics, of course). Being fair is not always easy.

So let's get to the point, 10 Hours with Gnome 3.

This test has been done under Ubuntu 11.04 x64 Alpha 3, so it is Alpha software, and for what I've seen, still lots of bugs I can not notify because apport is broken too. Gnome 3 used (Gnome-Shell) was the one available in the gnome3 team at launchpad, so it is Beta. Alpha + Beta = Trouble. Take this into account.

1- After installing what seemed all the packages available in the PPA but Anjuta, found that Empathy does not install because broken dependencies, as other small packages.

2- First thing to notice is that 11.04 starts up slower than 10.10.

3- GDM is broke. No background, and the users window has the looks of 1990's styling.

This is just in Ubuntu, Fedora 15(F15) and openSUSE 11.4 (oS11.4) have the right GDM.

4- Getting into Gnome Shell produces a bunch of this and that app closed unexpectedly, asking to report issue. I tried to report each app, but apport also crashed so no way to report issues. Finally opted to "never notify again if this app crashes".

This just in Ubuntu. F15 and oS11.4 don't have those.

5- Interface is ok. Theming is going to be a must, and should be easy as is CSS based. There is loss of consistency in the interface, windows menus don't match the window appearance. Icon theme can not be changed (I did not find where to), and is the old gnome grey theme I don't like so much. Not very appealing.

- Pointer theme has moved to black, I presume mostly because contrast to the clear window themes, so easy to find the pointer.

- Num Lock is not on by default. Weird.

- Some apps already ported to Gnome 3 have the "look and feel" of Gnome 3. Others that have not been yet ported still keep the Gnome 2 looks. This is transitional, as I understand that new versions will use new libraries, so no big deal.

- Font rendering is awkward. All fonts are jaggered and the font size and family are not the ones I would like to see there. I could change that into the CSS file in ..../gnome-shell/themes/, but it is not the point for this "review".

This is just in Ubuntu, Fedora 15 and openSUSE render fine

- Panel right icons are not the ones seen in Gnome 3 screenshots in www.gnome3.org. They look like Tango, and they are supposed to look more like the notification ones found in 10.10.

- There is no indication for the Input Method anywhere. I change from Spanish to Chinese and I don't know what language I type until I press a key. Still could not get Russian keyboard layout to work. There should be a unique way to enter text instead of Input Method and Keyboard Layout. Scim had it right, but looks like ibus is not doing it well, at least for now.

This is just an Ubuntu issue with ibus. Fedora 15 and openSUSE don't have any issues with ibus multilanguage and Input Method. All languages are managed through ibus. In Ubuntu, since 10.04 Russia is triggered through keyboard layouts, so need 2 ways to change languages in Ubuntu while just one in F15 and openSUSE 11.4

- Multiple desktops are good, at least from my point of view. Change from one desktop to another is Ctrl+Alt+ Up/Down arrows. This is consistent with the view of desktops in the Activities "window". New desktop appears as soon as an app is set into an empty desktop. Desktops disappear if that desktop looses all apps and was an empty one at the end. So if don't need desktops, they won't be there. If need, they will be.

- I keep Ubuntu One noticing that files are being uploaded even if everything is in sync.

- Can not shut down the computer. To do so, first have to close session and then, from the login window shut down. Mmmmmmm....

This is in Beta Gnome 3. Alpha Gnome 3 had the Shut Down option but is gone in latest builds.

- I think there should be a "My Files" option in the user menu too, as well as a "Shut down". There is a "Suspend", that in most cases should be enough for a non multiuser machine. I can understand why they did it that way. Though I rather have a "shut down" or "leave" with options to restart, suspend, shut down...

- Why is there a Floppy in Nautilus when I don't have a floppy? This was also in 10.10, and never understood why I have to look at a floppy icon when the installer knows that there is no floppy.

- I could not find where to tell the system to use only icons in the toolbar.

- Translation to Spanish seems not to be finished yet. I have many english words in different places, user menu, activities-apps window mainly.


- Evolution never remembers passwords on quit, so next time launch have to type again. Evolution in Ubuntu is not updated to Gnome 3, while F15's and oS11.4 is.

6- System Settings have gone mad. I think mostly because of Alpha+Beta. Not all settings are available in the Control Center, that is reached through the "System Settings" option in the user menu.

F15 and oS11.4 have more Settings than Ubuntu, while still missing most of them.

- Sound is broke. I can not get any sound from the computer. I had issues also with 10.10 anyway.

Sound works fine in F15, so is a bug in Ubuntu. Hardware used is HDMI audio out in Ubuntu, Analog Audio in F15.

- The user account settings can not be accessed. It is broke, and no way to report it.

F15 and oS11.4 don't have this issue at all.

- The Control Center I have differs from the one seen in some other screenshots, very few settings can be set. No printing settings, no network settings, no appearance settings, and many others not there.

7- Activities window. Well, this is going to be the point where biggest discussions will focus, besides notifications and applets.

- The desktop sidebar is ok. Can scroll up down from desktop to desktop using the mouse wheel, move windows from one desktop to other, and when the sidebar gets too populated with desktops they shrink to fit instead of going up/down hidden. I tried with up to 8 desktops. Actually I never use more than 4, though maybe with Gnome 3 will. Removing a window from a desktop causes this to be removed if no other windows are there and the following ones move upwards.

- The dash is half ok. The more apps added to the dash as favorites, and the more apps running, the smaller the icons to fit the dash space. Mmmmm... I wonder why don't use the same patter to scroll up/down with the mouse wheel as in desktop sidebar and keep the icons at a decent size. Here each one would understand "decent size" different.
I would rather have a bit bigger icons and scroll up/down with the wheel.
Because once the apps added or launched the Dash resizes and gets smaller. I wonder why is not the same height as the desktop sidebar.

Also there is no info on the apps. One has to know which app is which by looking at the icons. No mouse over app name. Right click brings up a menu to remove it from dash, go to that app or get a new window of that app.

- Main window shows the open windows in actual desktop. Can change from windows to apps and there can be seen all apps installed. Wrong. Not all apps are shown. Apps are shown in alphabetical order, and Categories are present too to choose apps from one category.
I still wonder why there are 2 Evolution icons, in Office and in Internet with different naming "Evolution" and "Correo de Evolution". This has been happening in Gnome since I started to use it. Some apps get duplicated entries.
As I could not find certain apps I know for sure were installed I used the search input field, and Miracle, not just the apps where there, but also preferences and settings. Funny thing is that they appear classified as Preferences, even some apps appear as preferences, and preferences is a category that is not available in the Categories list. What if I don't remember the name of a preference or an app? Will not be able to launch it.

App icons in the center of the window in app list are big. The text below is small and is truncated. Why? With such big icons it should be no problem to have 2 lines of text, just as Nautilus, so no name gets truncated. Obviously, I understand that there is some naming convention regarding new apps. But anyway, with such big size font for windows and panels, why so small for apps?

I rather have a less cluttered list of apps, like a grid with more space among icons, bigger fonts for app names and a bit smaller icons.

F15 and oS11.4 have been tested with ATI X1250 VGA out, Ubuntu with Intel Graphics HDMI out. Could not yet find how to install latest ATI drivers, so screen glitches in F15, very annoying.

Here searching for printers is where I found Printing as a preference and could set up the network printer. Awkward.

F15 and oS11.4 have the printing settings in the Control Center, where it should be.

8- The trash. Where is the trash? I can not find the trash anywhere. The dash has its own trash to remove icons from the dash, but where is the trash? If I send a file to the trash there is no way to get it back. Maybe Nautilus should have a "trash" at the lower left side in the lower part of the side panel.

Nautilus has a trash there. Actually I think it should be differentiated from other folders. Have Devices, Computer, Network, areas. I rather have trash at the bottom of the side pane. Even though is a folder, is not a common folder and its use differs from other folders.

Obviously, Ubuntu uses different Nautilus version than F15 and oS11.4, so overall look and feel seems a lot different.

over-------------

2011-03-20 - news
These days I've been trying Fedora 15 Alpha Gnome 3 and openSUSE 11.4 Gnome 3. Those I installed on a PC with ATI X1250 card. I always install 64bit versions because 64bit processors have been available for some years now. So, new things found:

1- ATI drivers not available for Gnome 3 yet. Screen flickers every minute and Activities-Applications-All shows a black box. Just when selecting Categories app icons appear. Adding oS11.4 Ati repositories caused a fallback to Gnome 2 look and feel.

2- I find package management and software installing much easier in Ubuntu than in F15 or oS11.4. Installing LibreOffice in oS11.4 needed manual selecting of all packages (writer, calc, impress, math, draw...).

3- ibus is broke in Ubuntu since 10.04. Works fine in F15 and oS11.4.

4- Font rendering is an Ubuntu's issue. F15 and oS11.4 work fine with font rendering showing smooth fonts everywhere.
Also Font Consistency among apps is kept in F15 and oS11.4. Firefox in Ubuntu has different fonts than rest of Gnome Apps.

5- GDM mistmatch is Ubuntu's issue. F15 and oS11.4 show proper Gnome 3 GDM.

5- Window controls is an Ubuntu's issue. F15 and oS11.4 show clearly Gnome 3 window controls.

6- Empathy is broke in Ubuntu. Works in F15, and oS11.4 does not allow MSN accounts, just Jabber, Facebook and Google.

7- Printing setup is not in Control Center in Ubuntu. F15 and oS11.4 have it there. No need to search for "print" in the apps window.

8- Dash shows all running screenlets. NONSENSE!!!

2011-03-20 - news - OVER

This is a short review of 10 hours experience with Gnome 3.

Now, the big questions:

1- Is Gnome 3 with Gnome Shell going to be good?
Sure. For a FIRST version is going to be needed that the packaging includes everything needed to get the full experience. That is the only way to do the real testing, not what I see now.

2- How long will it take it to be good?
Some time, that is for sure. This is the FIRST version of Gnome 3, so it will get improved. Depending on those improvements will be better or worse, that is also certain.

3- Am I going to move to Gnome 3?
For sure. This change is not a big deal, at least for me. And look forward is the way to go.


Actually, I would like to have the same interface in any device I use, be it desktop at home, desktop at work, laptop, netbook, tablet, smartphone or whatever other device that might appear in the next years. And an easy way to sync files from one to another, so being the same system it should be straightforward.

So taking all these into account, bearing in mind that is Alpha+Beta software, it looks promising.

This reminds me of when KDE4 came out. Was completely unusable. Back then I tried openSUSE with KDE4 and there were so many things missing and so many bugs in the preview that I just could use KDE4 to check how it looked, no network, no almost anything.
Finally KDE4 has evolved and now is a matter of liking, you like or you don't KDE4 so you don't use it or you do. It is going to be the same with Gnome 3.

F15 has a Control Center pref to Fallback to Gnome 2 panels, so one can stuck with the "old" look and feel of Gnome 2. So no big deal to move on. If don't like Gnome-shell, can still use Gnome 3 with Gnome 2 look and feel.


Regards
Xermán

As of today, March 20th 2011, I think this report is finished. Once Ubuntu has all Final Gnome3 packages available and 1104 is up and running I will do another report to see if anything has changed.

Regards.
Xermán

[anders_c_]

It will probably take a long time before Gnome-Shell works nicely with Ubuntu considering they will switch to Unity. Perhaps you should try out Unity instead?

[xerman]

Hi there Anders,


It will probably take a long time before Gnome-Shell works nicely with Ubuntu considering they will switch to Unity. Perhaps you should try out Unity instead?

I already tried Unity too. And did not like it so much. Also has interface glitches like loosing icons from the app sidebar, inconsistency in the font size and menu schema in the apps list, the app crashing was there too and the apport issue also.

Besides, I do not like the thing about telling me what other apps I can install in such category when I am launching the app I want, it is a distraction from my activity. Also the app list does not match the rest of the interface, and once you maximize the app list to fit the whole screen did not find a way to get it small.

Moreover, I don't like the idea of mimic OS X menubar and doc, even Unity's doc is on the left of the screen while OS X is at the bottom, even if can change from one place to other.

The notification bubbles at top most of the time interfere with other apps, screenlets, top panel menus, while the Gnome 3 are at bottom, so is less "annoying" if no other word found to express it.

Of course it is a matter of liking or disliking, and how people work. That is why there is Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Ubuntu, so having a Gubuntu would not be much of an issue too, I presume.

From my point of view, having an app menubar at top of screen ala OS X makes sense when running apps taking up the whole screen, and I personally don't use so many apps in full screen mode. If using a small window app (terminal, eog, pidgin, empathy, skype, banshee, rythmbox, shotwell, f-spot, nautilus, sound converter, avidemux, cheese...) having to move mouse to top screen panel takes up more time and take a look at the menu implies the need of moving eyes up, so I don't find it very ergonomically safe.

Sure Gnome 3 - Gnome Shell has a long, long way to go, and so does Unity. I just prefer Gnome Shell's approach. Ergonomically speaking, I still have not found an OS or DE that is healthy safe for desktop use. Laptops are even less healthy as screen is too close to keyboard, and tablets are something to avoid ergonomically speaking. But then again, people might not agree with this, and that is good so there are constructive critics to improve whatever DE it might be.

If Ubuntu sticks with Unity and Gnome Shell just does not go well inside Ubuntu, I would not have so much issues to move to Debian. Choices is what makes Linux great, even though for some things there are no choice at all. ;)

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

Funny thing about Gnome 3:

Qcad, a Qt app launches really fast. When I say fast, I mean FAST. Faster than any other Gnome 2 app. And also funny is that even fonts, controls and toolbar don't match Gnome style, some things come out in Gnome 3 style, as rolling windows that come down from the title bar.

Worth to notice.

Regards
Xermán

[xerman]

Hello again,

The test has been going on these days, completing with testing Fedora 15 Alpha 1 and testing Gnome 3 Live CD (OpenSuse based).

What I could extract from these testing is that Fedora uses older version of Gnome 3-Shell than the Gnome 3 Live CD.

Mainly,
1- Visual interface in Fedora seems old version compared to G3LCD. Multiple Desktop is better in G3LCD, same used by Ubuntu's packages.

2- Fedora's app icons in Activities are smaller than G3LCD.

3- Fedora's Dash shows app names while G3LCD does not.

4- Font rendering has been improved. G3LCD has quite good font rendering while Fedora does not, also Ubuntu does not either. Maybe due to the font family itself. Fonts in G3LCD are smaller than those in Ubuntu's packages and look a lot nicer.

5- Interface consistency is kept along the way in both Fedora and G3LCD, while it is not in Ubuntu. Maybe due to packaging being in early stages.

6- Empathy works in G3LCD, not in Fedora (network errors), nor in Ubuntu(dependencies not matched so unable to install).

7- All apps are shown in both Fedora and G3LCD while not in Ubuntu. Though preferences still have same issue. Plenty of preferences have gone away (at least for now).

8- Panel notification icons are consistent with the interface in Fedora and G3LCD, while not in Ubuntu. This might be due to the packaging also. Plenty of G3 packages are not available yet in Ubuntu.

9- G3LCD seems to have latest versions of all Gnome Packages, so apps keep consistent with the DE. Fedora seems the same but with older version. Ubuntu seems to mismatch things like toolbars, menubars, and fonts depending on the app. G3LCD and Fedora keep same font in any app, Firefox included while Ubuntu has different font for Firefox than for rest of apps. This added to a better rendering of fonts in Fedora and G3LCD makes Ubuntu look like 2003 styling.

10- Fedora and G3LCD don't have as many crashes as Ubuntu. In fact, have not seen any on those (except Empathy in Fedora) while in Ubuntu every 5 minutes get a crash. Ubuntu is Alpha 3, Fedora is Alpha 1, and G3LCD seems based on OpenSuse 11.4 ("stable").

So from all this testing I could say that Stability and Usability depend more on the packaging of Gnome 3 and the stability of the base system. With a good icon theme and some panel appearance tunning is going to be a good option. Just distros need to do the right packaging for Gnome 3. If distros do not care about good packaging it is clear that no one is going to enjoy Gnome 3.

For what I've seen for now, Gnome 3 is a good approach at what a DE should be. Some things I had already thought of myself so I like them in Gnome 3. And have not seen them yet in any other DE or OS.

If Ubuntu stucks with Unity it is going to be a pitty if they don't do a Gubuntu, just as Kubuntu or Xubuntu. Because, after all, a good packaging makes DE perform better and improve user experience. Ubuntu not having a Gubuntu would not make any sense unless they drop Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio.

Using alpha and beta software is always risky. I tried to show some of the issues I am facing on a daily basis working with Ubuntu and Gnome 3-Shell. And checked what other major distros are doing to address them. Of course, take into account that Fedora 15 ships with Gnome 3, and G3LCD has latest Gnome 3 packages, so it is expected both of them perform better than Ubuntu.

Feedback is also good on this project, even Gnome had closed already the version developement, because it would improve next versions. I am pretty sure that Gnome 2011.10 would be much better.

Saying no to Gnome 3 without having tried for some time is nonsense. I tried Unity for about the same time as Gnome 3, but just in Ubuntu, as no other distro is packaging Unity but Ubuntu. There are plans for Unity in OpenSuse though.

I hope that Ubuntu is going to be capable of making an Installer CD that allows to choose from Gnome 3, Gnome Legacy, Kde, Xfce, Lxmde or whatever. If not, there are still many distros out there.

I keep thinking that the best distro is a Rolling one. A distro that updates periodically and there is no need for "major" updates. Also one that can mimic other DE's apps into the same interface consistency (I know this is hard, moreover taking into account that some apps still use Qt3.

By the way, Gnome 3 is for everyone, not just final end user, developers, power users, computer freaks. For newbies is going to be good. For the rest of us, having the choice to modify things would be a must.

Apple used to say "I think, therefore iMac". Actually:
1- if I think I know how I work
2- if I know how I work, I know how I should have things arranged on my computer
3- if I know how I should have things arranged, I should have the chance to arrange those.
4- if I can arrange those, is computer who mimics my way, not me who mimics computer way.
All of these are just available in Linux. Never have seen any other OS with such freedom as Linux in the way to set your environment to match oneself's way of work.

Regards,
Xerman

[xerman]

Attached "Activities" screenshot.

In my personal opinion, a bit more space among icons would make it cleaner. So bigger font for app names, and 2 text lines. Some categories missing.

Running screenlets should not be there in the dash. And dash should keep icon size, and maybe separate favorites from other running apps.

[xerman]

Hello again,

today, March 23th, after last update from Ubuntu, Gnome3-Shell became even worse:
- No desktop background. Background keeps being the splash screen from startup.
- No ability to change desktop background.
- Controls look and feel in every app, menus, buttons, etc... became 100% motif, while window border keeps being Gnome3.
- Brasero is not working at all.
- Complete interface mess up.

This interface mess up also happened on Fedora15 (on other PC), loosing app icons everywhere, though still keeping the font rendering fine. Besides, letting F15 partition the HD by itself, creates LVM volumes that end up in a complete mess of the hard drive. As I always partition myself manual mode, I let F15 do by itself to check the process. This is something to avoid.

Regards.
Xermán

[xerman]

Hello there again,

Now I am back from work, so have a few minutes to write some comments.

First:
Process: Updated Ubuntu 10.10 to 11.04 through "update-manager -d", then installed Gnome3-Shell. Ubuntu came with Unity as default.

The system is completely messed up, talking about interface, both in Unity and Gnome3-Shell. Issues and crashes are the same in both DE. I will post some screenshots to show you. Those screenshots prove that Beta+Alpha = Mess (though I can work with the SO), so be aware of what I write before doing this yourselves.

After these days trying Ubuntu 11.04, Fedora 15 and openSUSE 11.4 all of them with Gnome3-Shell I can say the following conclusions:

1- Looks like Unity and Gnome3-Shell can not live on the same PC. So in my opinion should have 2 meta-packages or 2 brother spin-offs of Ubuntu, one with Unity, other with Gnome3-Shell. This statement will be a fact once Ubuntu 11.04 stable is released and I can test this again.

2- I like better the Debian way than the RPM. Maybe I got used to Synaptic, but I can not get used to RPM package management apps in Fedora or openSUSE.

3- Now I installed fresh Ubuntu 11.04 Alpha 3 x64 on the test PC (after Fedora 15 and openSUSE 11.4) and keep having same crashes as in the mixed Unity-Gnome3 PC. This might be due to the fact of being 64bit and Alpha. Screen flickers, and probably due to ATI card. Will check after fglrx is installed.

4- I keep not liking Unity approach. This is a matter of taste, it is personal, so the best way is to try it out for yourselves, not on a LiveCD, but on a per day use basis.

5- A lot of work is needed in both Unity and Gnome3-Shell. As these are first releases, more in Gnome3 than Unity, both will become better, just as KDE 4 did.

6- The best way to improve both is to give constructive feedback to both development teams.

7- For those afraid of the Gnome3-Shell there is a Gnome3 Fallback mode with 2 panels, top and bottom as standard Gnome2, "classic" menus and so on, so is not going to be a big deal to move to Gnome3, just don't use GnomeShell.

Hope this helps you all, not to make a decision, but to know more about how this new "world" of DE is evolving.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

As promised, images of Unity and Gnome3 on the same PC. They can not live together...

Actually, in my opinion, there should be two exclusive meta-packages, Unity and Gnome3-Shell, installing one removes the other with some "cleaning" procedure, so no messing files will remain in any of both DE.

[xerman]

Hello there again,

As of latest today's updates, Gnome3-Shell became broke. Log in to Gnome3-Shell just shows desktop background and nothing else, not usable, no way to restart, reboot, close session... Only hardware buttons will do.

So this leaves me, for now, just with Unity. With this update Unity seems to be a bit better as sidebar icons are there, not as in the screenshots in previous reply.

I still don't like Unity, has some interface inconsistency that really annoys me.

I should say, though, that having Gnome3-shell installed along with Unity has some mixed behavior, as in Unity, Gnome3-shell gestures also work:
- move window to desktop top makes window fill whole screen.
- move window to desktop left makes window fill left side of screen.
- move window to desktop right makes window fill right side of screen.

Still unable to change background as selecting background changing in preferences closes preferences but without a "crash" message. It just quits. Weird that background now has changed from the black background seen in previous post to stock Gnome 3 background.

Same for Region and Languages. Control Center just quits when clicking on this one.

IM and VoIP account preferences don't do anything. Clicking on it in Control Center does nothing.

On the test machine with an ATI X1250 onboard graphics there is no way to install fglrx driver, so flicker keeps there. There are though the fglrx packages available in Synaptic, but they produce an error when installing so no way to use fglrx in 11.04, at least for now.

More this weekend.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

Funny thing just happened...

Screen dimmed down (power saving), and there was the Gnome-Shell top panel, not the Unity one. Moving mouse made the Unlock Screen dialog to appear with the Gnome3 Stock Background and the Gnome3 top panel still there, once typing pass, go back to Unity desktop.

Weird. Very weird.

The more I use these two, the more I believe they can not live together on the same PC.

Regards.
Xermán.

[samigina]

Yes that two hates each other... I have test enviroment like youyrs, Fedora 15 and Ubuntu 11.4 (with gnome3 from ppa) and I must agreed with all what you say.

Ubuntu gets completly broken with Gnome3, I tried a CLI install (to avoid Unity), then add gnome-desktop-environment but theres dependencies problems.

Fedora with Gnome3 looks great Im loving it, just get the gnome-tweak-tool (http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-tweak-tool/2.91/) and enjoy. Just thing I cant stay is with RPMs and miss the restricted-extras and the bigg amount of ubunut packages.

I hope someone will make a Ubuntu Gnome3 without Unity (I dont like it)

[xerman]

Yes that two hates each other... I have test enviroment like youyrs, Fedora 15 and Ubuntu 11.4 (with gnome3 from ppa) and I must agreed with all what you say.

Ubuntu gets completly broken with Gnome3, I tried a CLI install (to avoid Unity), then add gnome-desktop-environment but theres dependencies problems.

Fedora with Gnome3 looks great Im loving it, just get the gnome-tweak-tool (http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-tweak-tool/2.91/) and enjoy. Just thing I cant stay is with RPMs and miss the restricted-extras and the bigg amount of ubunut packages.

I hope someone will make a Ubuntu Gnome3 without Unity (I dont like it)

Sí Samigina, estoy totalmente de acuerdo. Yo prefiero deb a rpm, pero Fedora 15 tiene mejor aspecto siendo Alpha 1 que Ubuntu siendo Alpha 3 y es más estable. Ya no digamos con la mezcla Unity-Shell.

Yep Saimgina, I have to agree with you. I am rather fond of deb than rpm, but Fedora 15 looks more polished being Alpha 1 than Ubuntu being Alpha 3, and besides is more stable. The mix Unity-Shell is a complete mess.

Regards.
Xermán

[KegHead]

Hi!

I'm using Xubuntu 11.04 on my dell mini9 and love it!

It's fast and gives me a little more real estate!

KegHead

[Alejandro Nova]

While I'm seeing nothing but Natty-specific mess and havoc, Kubuntu 11.04 is running here like silk. Update after update, the only problems I found so far is Firefox making the Plasma Desktop crash if I enable Global Menu (workaround: disable Global Menu) and Libreoffice Global Menu behaving weirdly (workaround: disable Global Menu).

Also, Ubuntu Libreoffice is a mess of itself (there are loads of bugs absent in the Libreoffice.org Debian packages, so someone must kill with fire all of the Ubuntu packages and just use the LO.o ones). But, my experience with Kubuntu Natty has been REALLY sweet. KDE System Settings is loaded with new Kubuntu-specific apps, there are subtle enhancements, Oxygen GTK and Muon. I can't do anything but recommend Kubuntu Natty.

[Alejandro Nova]

Yes that two hates each other... I have test enviroment like youyrs, Fedora 15 and Ubuntu 11.4 (with gnome3 from ppa) and I must agreed with all what you say.

Ubuntu gets completly broken with Gnome3, I tried a CLI install (to avoid Unity), then add gnome-desktop-environment but theres dependencies problems.

Fedora with Gnome3 looks great Im loving it, just get the gnome-tweak-tool (http://download.gnome.org/sources/gnome-tweak-tool/2.91/) and enjoy. Just thing I cant stay is with RPMs and miss the restricted-extras and the bigg amount of ubunut packages.

I hope someone will make a Ubuntu Gnome3 without Unity (I dont like it)

The big amount of Ubuntu packages, I agree, but... restricted extras? RPM Fusion! And if you want to save yourself the pain of installing that, download the Fusion Fedora Remix ;).

Also, there isn't such a difference, because there are many programs in Fedora that install only one package, versus several in Ubuntu (thinking specially about KDE)

[xerman]

The big amount of Ubuntu packages, I agree, but... restricted extras? RPM Fusion! And if you want to save yourself the pain of installing that, download the Fusion Fedora Remix ;).

Also, there isn't such a difference, because there are many programs in Fedora that install only one package, versus several in Ubuntu (thinking specially about KDE)

I have to agree with you too, Alejandro. Ubuntu has become a mess itself. Updating versions from X.04 to X.10 and to X.04 results in a completed messed system. Best way to update Ubuntu, any version, is fresh install, with all the hassle that implies.

I don't like Fedora package management, and don't like Fedora dl speeds. Being in Eurasia means that Fedora is slower to update than Ubuntu/Mint/openSUSE/Mandriva... besides, Fedora's package management app and "software center" is not straight-forward, as Ubuntu's.

This means that if Ubuntu is not capable of making a Gubuntu only (just Gnome 3, not Unity), I will move away from Ubuntu.

Unity is not just a mess in working environment, but also in design. I can not understand why Canonical is doing such thing. Looks like since 2010 Canonical does not know where to go. Ubuntu has become more unstable and with more flaws than openSUSE, Fedora, Mandriva, Mint, or other major distros.

I can understand Shuttleworth not wanting Gnome3 because of effort put on Unity along UNR versions of Ubuntu, but the more I use Unity, the more I like Gnome3-Shell.

Knowing that Unity has been around for some time and Gnome3 is still becoming beta, I can assure as a Quality Systems Manager, IT Engineer, and Senior Health and Safety Technician, I can not agree by any means with Unity's approach.

It looks like Unity is a mix of many things without a common goal. A project without leadership. This is as it is now. It is not in such an early stage as Gnome3 is, so I think I can say what I said. Of course Unity still has a long way to go, and lots of things to improve, but if this is the way Unity is going to, I, today, right now, will drop away Unity forever.

Just hope someone in Ubuntu/Canonical will do a Gubuntu spinoff without any Unity dependencies. Just plain Gnome3-Shell version of Ubuntu.

Of course this is a matter of taste. As I said before. I just don't like to have an inconsistent interface as MY interface with computer. Unity will improve, so will Gnome3-Shell, so when I see a Gubuntu spinoff I will go back to Ubuntu. For now, I leave. I will keep testing this Gnome3-Shell on Ubuntu-Unity 11.04 and will keep posting what I find good and bad about it. If new updates don't solve Gnome3-Shell issues and I am forced to login to Unity, I will think to move to Fedora ASAP.

I use Linux for work, and been using 100% Ubuntu since 5.04, I've seen how the input method has been messed up, from scim to ibus, and now in ibus-ubuntu input method is not straight forward. This is a big drawback. Ubuntu has become less stable in the past updates since 10.04. Updating system makes system worse than clean install, this means that an average user, not a linux freak will end up with a messed system when updating instead of a stable system.

I think that Canonical and Shuttleworth are missing the point here, but this is just a personal opinion and some might agree, some might argue, some might fight and some might don't care at all.

I tried Mint, but I don't like their approach either. I tried Debian Squeeze but hardware setting did not work well while installing. I tried Fedora 15 Alpha and openSUSE 11.4 with Gnome3-Shell and for now, the best I found is Fedora 15 Alpha, this even knowing that I don't like Fedora so much.

For me, it seems Unity is a mix of things from other OS. Unity tries to mimick other OS's things, but being used in UNR for some time now, should be more polished. It looks like pre-Alpha to me.

For me, Unity should stay with gtk2 libs and don't mess around with gtk3. Just leave gtk3 to Gnome3. This is, of course, a statement based on what I've seen up to now. I am pretty sure that when 11.10 comes out Unity will be better, so will be Gnome3-Shell, but I don't feel "safe" using Unity for a daily work while I feel safe using Gnome3-Shell, and that is what end users care about.

As an Engineer I can live with the flaws of Unity, but as an user I can not. Being an Engineer and Linux user does not make me more tolerant to flaws, as computers are just tools for daily work, and what I want from them is just work as they should.
A complete different thing is that I test drive different distros, because I should do so by being an IT consultant, but I have to test drive distros from the end user point of view, not from the techie's. And from the end user point of view I go 100% with Gnome3-Shell.

If not being able to install Gnome3-Shell on Ubuntu getting rid of Unity, I will move away. This is a fact. For server purposes I am already moving to Xubuntu, for desktop, I am considering Fedora 15 as a good option if there is no Gubuntu (no Unity packages) when 11.04 stable comes out.

For this, I would like to see a Ubuntu installer letting user to use Gnome3-Shell or Unity, being Gnome3-Shell on one PPA and Unity on another different PPA, so there will be no mess as the one I am finding now.

Regards.
Xermán

[samigina]

Oh god... Packagekit is sicking me...

1. If I want to activate repos it updated software list after very clik on evrey selection... just about 20 min to activate 4 repos...
2. No instant search!
3. No real info about progress, just an icon with a test sayin downloading, installing... but no a real useful info, like % of individual packages, download rate, spped, etc; you know, or beloved synaptic "terminal".
4. No config options, at least with the GUI.
5. No way to add repos.
6. I cant see packages just from one source!

I guess its just about getting use to it, but I find Packagekit very slow, and frustrating.

[xerman]

What I've found these days is that it does not matter which repos have on or off. Backports and Proposed are turned off now, but no improvement.

It looks like each "odd" update messes up the whole thing, and have to wait until next "even" update. I just got gdm and X broke this weekend and then again sunday night (march 27th) got back after Console login and manual apt-get/aptitude updating-upgrading.

In my personal opinion, there should be two exclusive repos/ppa. UnityPPA and Gnome3PPA. Selecting one or another deselects the other.

Actually, I tried Xubuntu 11.04 also this weekend to find out that adding the Gnome3 PPA broke gdm and X after installing gnome-shell and dependencies, so just Console.

Having an ATI card is no good thing for now as fglrx has a bug with new Xorg, so will not install until AMD-ATI releases new fglrx driver. This is going to be a big issue as there are plenty of Legacy cards that will not get the update. One of them is my X1250. So there is going to be flickering on the screen for quite long, unless the open source ati driver improves. I am talking about VGA connector. Did not try through DVI or HDMI.

Last update, March 28th came up with the following:
1- Translation of App categories seem finished and there are a lot more categories available than before. Even some of them don't have any icons available.

2- iBus input method indicator still does not show the input method indicator nowhere.

3- Top panel lost icons for sound settings and accessibility options while clicking on their spots bring up the options of each. Network top panel icon became a square.

4- User accounts preferences does not crash anymore.

5- Background Change keeps working weird. Selecting a background causes the screen flicker nuts, and then sometimes the background image is set, and sometimes the background goes black. This happens randomly without any patter noticed.

6- Printers are in the Control Center, which is good thing now.

7- There is no Input Method setup in the Control Center yet and has to be accessed through the applications-Activities.

8- Still some preferences missing.

9- Font rendering seems to have improved. Though I rather see more consistency in fonts throughout the desktop. At least same size in Activities (Apps list) and Menus-Nautilus...
There is still font mismatch among apps. Some use certain fontface, some use different. Mostly Firefox.
Funny that different apps show different font rendering. LibreOffice has different font rendering than gedit, and differs from Firefox.

Some apps have the underscore beneath the letter that triggers the keystroke in the menubar, some don't. Firefox, Libreoffice Librecad have underscore. Librecad is qt4 app, and finally seems Qcad has "evolved" into Librecad and can use a Cad app that resembles the rest of DE apps. Other issues are just Librecad related so this is not the place to post them. Some others are DE unifying look and feel, so the same applies here.



10- Apps interface starts to match that of Gnome 3, though some apps still need "retouching" (evolution, firefox...)

11- Running screenlets don't appear in the Dash anymore. At last. This is good. Rendering of screenlets needs some working, but I presume is mostly due to being based on gtk2. Sometimes I can see the screenlets on the desktop, sometimes just some part of the screenlet, sometimes the whole screenlet. Clicking on the screenlet spot gets the screenlet redrawn so it is shown.

12- GDM is still messed up.

13- Still many crashes all over the desktop.

14- Evolution does not keep account passwords. And there are still 2 Evolution icons in the app list: "Evolution" and "Evolution Mail", still nonsense. Both trigger Evolution.

15- Some Dialogs still are not Gnome 3 interface savvy. Still keep Gnome2 look and feel.

16- Some apps have the Gnome 3 controls, some don't. Obviously, those part of the Gnome 3 "meta-package" and those that the Gnome 3 team has already built them successfully have the right controls. Those not included in Gnome 3, or those not yet built successfully don't.

17- Sometimes, randomly, no pattern at all, the system just Logs Out the user, bringing back the GDM login screen and need to re Login.

18- Suspend sometimes suspends computer, sometimes suspends and wakes right away. No network boot rom activated.

19- The floppy disk appearing on Nautilus is due to BIOS settings. Most BIOS have default activated that there is going to be a floppy. Hardware detection just checks that in BIOS so does not care about a floppy being installed or not. So need to comment the "fstab" floppy line to get rid of it. This for "powerusers" could do, not for regular users.

20- I still hope that change from desktop to desktop will be available with the mouse wheel. Desktops being one on top of other makes it straightforward to use the wheel to go up and down from one to the other. Maybe wheeling while right-click, as right-click has no use over the desktop, or maybe with a trigger key.


More on this as I have more time to test, review, and write.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

New things on the block:

1- Mouseover Dash icons finally shows app name. Good! Thumbs up!. Though I would rather have the name a bit bigger and on the right of the icon, not below. Or at least being able to set font size depending on the screen, be it tablet, netbook, laptop or desktop...

2- Still 2 Evolutions (Evolution and EvolutionMail). This I presume is because there is a Desktop Entry for Evolution in the Internet category, and an entry for Evolution Mail in the Office category. Different names for same app is nonsense. Same app in two places with different names is even more nonsense.

3- Installing a new app makes all the apps disappear from the app list forcing logout (i presume just logout needed). I did a restart and the whole bunch of apps were there again.

4- Some apps never show up unless you type name of them (Synaptic, Qt3 and Qt4 settings) System-Preferences and System-Administration things are reached just by typing, some of them. And still missing some from Control Center.
Some apps show in All Apps and are not in any category. Software Center is there in All Apps but is in none of the categories. Weird...


With Ubuntu due on April 28th, and Gnome 3 due on April 6th, there is still a lot to be done. But Gnome 3 is looking good as a concept and I will keep using it. When it becomes stable enough I will set it up on laptop and work.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

2011.03.31

As of today, new things happened:

1- Gnome 3 loads faster to desktop from GDM. Good thing.

2- Some apps disappeared from the App list and they are not searchable. Only way to launch them is through terminal:

gnome-control-center
synaptic
update-manager


3- Still plenty of crashes of "system software", including apport.

4- Empathy, as well as Evolution, keep forgetting passwords. Empathy forgets everything about accounts, no matter if imported from Pidgin or creating new. This happens after quit and relaunch any of them.

5- Background changing keeps flickering. This is, selecting a background to change makes the whole background, not windows, flicker and sometimes background gets changed, sometimes just turns plain black.

here is the terminal output for part of the gnome-control-center preferences i copied as had to launch gnome-control-center through terminal, as from the user menu, selecting "System Settings" just gives a crash and does nothing:


`menu_proxy_module_load': gnome-control-center: undefined symbol: menu_proxy_module_load

(gnome-control-center:2382): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to load type module: (null)


(gnome-control-center:2382): info-cc-panel-WARNING **: Unable to stat / filesystem: No existe el fichero o el directorio
`menu_proxy_module_load': gnome-control-center: undefined symbol: menu_proxy_module_load

(gnome-control-center:2382): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to load type module: (null)

`menu_proxy_module_load': gnome-control-center: undefined symbol: menu_proxy_module_load

(gnome-control-center:2382): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to load type module: (null)

`menu_proxy_module_load': gnome-control-center: undefined symbol: menu_proxy_module_load

(gnome-control-center:2382): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to load type module: (null)

`menu_proxy_module_load': gnome-control-center: undefined symbol: menu_proxy_module_load

(gnome-control-center:2382): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to load type module: (null)

`menu_proxy_module_load': gnome-control-center: undefined symbol: menu_proxy_module_load

(gnome-control-center:2382): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to load type module: (null)

`menu_proxy_module_load': gnome-control-center: undefined symbol: menu_proxy_module_load

(gnome-control-center:2382): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to load type module: (null)


(gnome-control-center:2382): info-cc-panel-WARNING **: Failed to get fallback mode: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.InvalidArgs : No such property session-name

(gnome-control-center:2382): info-cc-panel-WARNING **: Error getting PackageKit transaction ID: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnkn own: The name org.freedesktop.PackageKit was not provided by any .service files

6- GDM login screen still is a mess. Does not match nor ubuntu, nor unity nor gnome-3.

7- Top panel has got back some icons, like sound and accessibility. Network is still a box.

8- Some components are not updated

gnome-themes-selected
gnome-accesibility-themes
depend on libgtk3.0.0 but is not installable.

9- Font Rendering is not consistent. Gnome 3 apps (control-center, gedit, nautilus) render fonts fine in menus. Libreoffice has different menu font or different rendering. Firefox has a completely different font, looks like bold compared to gedit's.

10- Also scroll bars from Firefox and Libreoffice are from gtk2-gnome2, not from gnome3.

11- Selecting a folder/drive on nautilus sidepane now makes the selected item readable. Background is blue, text is white when selected, so can be read.

12- Order of items in sidepane could be improved. File System "drive" should not be in same place as HomeFolder links. User folders (Videos, Documents, Music, Downloads..) have not really much to do with the "File System" on the same "location". I would put the Trash fixed at the bottom of the pane, and the "FileSystem" in the "Devices". Instead of "Computer" having Personal folders and "FileSystem" I rather have a "Personal Files". A partition that is also in the drive appears on Devices, not in Computer though is not a physical device, but a logical partition. See attached image. And match the "Open-Save" dialog with same distribution of places.

Image "20110331-Diforders.png" shows different ordering and naming of folders in Nautilus sidepane and open-save dialog. This should not be. Having an option to "search" and "recently used" is compatible with having same ordering. Different naming is nonsense. Desktop folder now is a real folder, because for now nothing is saved on Desktop, so also should be in the nautilus sidebar if is also in the open-save.

Image "20110331-nautilus.png"; left is how it is, right is how I think it should be.

Image "20110331-Diffonts.png" shows different font type-rendering in different apps, all presumed GTK.



More in the days to come, and as soon as I keep on finding, testing, researching.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

2011.04.03

As of today, many things keep being the same:

1- Still lots of crashes ("System software crashed").

2- No audio. Audio hardware gets detected well but no sound at all all over the system

3- No gnome3 GDM, no gnome2 GDM. Still looks like gnome1-motif.

4- Network icon on top panel still a "picture" box.

5- ibus input method indicator same "picture" box as Network icon.

6- No "update-manager" in apps, and not searchable. Have to do "sudo update-manager" in terminal.

7- No "synaptic" in apps, and not searchable. Have to do "sudo synaptic" in terminal.

8- Desktop background still mess. Changing desktop background makes the whole background flicker, not the opened windows. Sometimes the background gets changed, sometimes just turns to black background.

9- Evolution still gets 2 icons in apps "Evolution" and "Evolution Mail".

10- Evolution looses passwords every time on new launch.

11- Empathy looses account info on close. Need to retype account info on every launch.

12- Some apps in the app list don't have any category associated, thus are only visible when selecting All.

13- Input method is not available in Gnome-Control-Center. Has to be searched in Activities-Apps.

14- No "Screensaver" section in Control Center.

15- Network in Control Center just sets proxy.

16- Cheese crashes when selecting video effects.

17- apport sometimes is able to set a report, sometimes crashes too.

18- Still many non Gnome3 interface things. Big difference with Fedora 15, where most interface is already Gnome3 in Alpha.(dialogs, controls, font rendering, fonts, GDM, and many more).

19- Login to gnome-shell has become slow compared to several days ago.

20- Still many things missing from the Control Center (system settings-preferences)

21- Input methods need to be manually installed from synaptic. This means to search in synaptic for some ibus-chinese-pinyin, ibus-russian-yawerty... install them, then search for input-method in apps (no input method section in Control Center), and then just the added input methods are available to be configured and added to ibus chain. No good.
And as synaptic is no clearly available, need to use terminal to be able to add input methods.

22- Libreoffice translation has to be manually installed through synaptic.

23- Universal Access apps have disappeared from Activities-Apps-Universal Access.

24- Power Manager crashes and no able to notify to apport because is not a genuine ubuntu package.

25- Gwibber crashes on adding account and no account added. Already notified in Launchpad.


Things that seem to be solved now (until next update, at least):
1- Gnome-Control-Center is back. Now I can access the settings available.

2- Screenlets rendering on desktop seem to be fixed. No half screenlet drawn and wait for mouse click to be fully drawn. The whole screenlet is there now.

3- Ubuntu Software Center is there again.


That is all for now. More in the days to come. I still think of a different PPA for Gnome3 than for Unity, or at least exclusive meta-packages.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

2011.04.04

Hello there,

Today I just discovered this:
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeTweakTool

Tweak tool is available through synaptic. Font rendering improved a lot, also can tweak other things of Gnome 3.
Is a must.

Regards,
Xermán

[cgarre]

i tried gnome 3 with ubuntu 11.04 , and had issues ... similar to what was described .. moved to fedora rawhide .. it has gnome 3. It seems to be stable, but obviously less controllable now .. we lost a lot of power we had with gnome 2, now no way to change theme , font etc ... also i dont think i like the notifications, it notifies and then vanishes ! now how do i know there is a message waiting .. shouldnt the notification keep showing that to me till i take action ? such simple things were missed out .. though inspite of the fact that i am using fedora rawhide, i havent had a crash from the time i have been using it (2-3 hours). I dont know why open source community is divided, they should stay united and work for a common cause, otherwise eagles like microsoft and google will eat you up !

[xerman]

2011.04.07

Hello there again,

These days I've been testing openSUSE 11.4 Gnome3 and Fedora 15. openSUSE now does not have the flicker screen thing due to ATI drivers I've seen in Fedora. Overall is fine. Also had some issues same as Ubuntu regarding ibus. That is:

- ibus is not installed by default in openSUSE, it is in Fedora.
- input method setup is not in Control Center (once installed), same as Ubuntu, but is there (as should be) in Fedora.
- ibus input methods have to be installed manually through YaST, same as Ubuntu, straightforward (as should be) from the input method setup in Fedora.

I am not yet using Gnome3 3.0 on the test machine, but the most consistent interface for now is Fedora's. This is obvious once understood that Fedora 15 is coming with Gnome 3 as default Gnome desktop. We all know openSUSE is more KDE centric, and Ubuntu has gone Unity.

Having Unity, KDE, Gnome3, XFCE, Enlightment, or other not so well know DE is not a drawback, but a good point. User can choose how computer is going to look like. Though in my experience in working environments, 99% of users just change background and leave rest as it is.
Those who use Win or MacosX have not so many chances to change anything else. Copland promised that for MacosX but never saw the light of day. Win can achieve that by third party apps. Linux, one just chooses de DE and tweaks it. Some tweaks need terminal use so they are not for common users.

I feel more comfortable with synaptic than with Yast, maybe because I've been using it for some years now.

What I've found in openSUSE these days is that updating usually installs plenty of 32bit packages. Let's remember I only use 64bit oses, be it Fedora, openSUSE or Ubuntu.

But also found that openSUSE and Fedora matches fonts in "non-Gnome" apps much better than Ubuntu. Example, Firefox, Evolution, Libreoffice use same fonts and face in openSUSE and Fedora (subtle changes), while there are differences in Ubuntu. Evolution now in openSUSE is Gnome3 version, so fonts are same as Gnome3 and even the toolbar sports same interface. Also in Fedora. Evolution has not "evolved" yet in Ubuntu so there is still big difference here.

Last update in Ubuntu broke Gnome3 in the sense that Software Updater removed gnome-shell, gnome-session and gnome-icon-theme-symbolic due to version dependencies not solved yet. This is one of the reasons for me to say that a "gnome3-desktop" metapackage is a must. Anyway, not all parts of Gnome3 are yet available in the gnome3-team at launchpad, but hopefully will be.

In Fedora, top panel has the Adwaita icons all over, having no issue to show any of them, be it network, accessibility, sound, input method, all there. openSUSE just shows user, sound and accessibility. Ubuntu shows accessibility, user, sound and network. This is another proof that integration is better resolved in Fedora than in the others due to starting from Gnome3 as base.

Setting a minimize button on windows through "Gnome Tweak Tool" is good. At least for testing purposes. Having desktop with more than 5 windows and being lazy to move to another desktop makes the minimize button convenient to reduce clutter.

It is a fact that at office I still use 9.04 and I find myself everyday going to the top left corner to change desktop and launch apps realizing then that is gnome2 not gnome3. The change in the workflow is not so big, so nothing to be afraid of.

Tweaking is not so hard with "Gnome Tweak Tool", at least for basic stuff. More can be done using Terminal (again) editing the CSS file that holds the config of Gnome-shell. Fonts face and size, colors, panel height... everything is there. Power users would do that, not the average one.

Last Ubuntu update, before breaking gnome-shell/session brought back apps icons to the Activities-Applications, so now there is Synaptic there, Update-Manager and many others that had dissappeared for some time. I still think that Fedora is doing better with Alpha Software than Ubuntu (beta) or openSUSE (production).

What I've found also is that updating is faster in Ubuntu than in any other. Being in Eurasia and having a local mirror sure helps, because line is same cable line for all. openSUSE is also fast being Fedora de slowest one.

Still not using fglrx drivers on the ATI test machine, so openSUSE though moves quite well is not as smooth as Ubuntu machine (intel graphics).

Also, app icons still not SVG, same as Ubuntu, so Activities-Apps shows plenti of pixelated icons. Besides, Libreoffice ones are openoffice icons, not libreofice's.

In the past days, Ubuntu-Gnome3 has improved a lot (not taking into account the broken system due to 2.91.x and 3.0 dependencies missmatch), though still needs a lot to get to Fedora. openSUSE is in the middle because I have not had any system break for the time I've been using openSUSE, while in Ubuntu almost every launch ends up in a crash dialog, and mostly unable to send report through apport.

So, for now we have
1st place: Fedora
2nd place: openSUSE
3rd place: Ubuntu

This is based on everyday usage, interface consistency, crashes, bug reporting, speed, integration, gnome2-gnome3-kde apps.

I found not so much difference in start up times among all three. Take into account 2 different machines with 2 different processors Intel and AMD. So differences could be due to that, and different RAM amount.

That's it for today. When Ubuntu fixes dependencies will do a better comparison.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

2011.04.07 (ii)

Hello again:

After latest builds, system has recovered (Ubuntu) from break. (Now in Ubuntu machine)

So things have changed just a few, but others still there:

1- top panel icons don't match Gnome 3 and not all icons shown.
2- no ibus indicator on top panel and no input method setup in Control center.
3- still no hdmi-intel sound.
4- gdm still in the oldies.
5- font rendering still in the oldies and no match among apps. Mostly Libreoffice and Firefox.
6- Synaptic is back in app list and so many others that disappeared before.
7- Fonts in Activities windows still messed. Some too big so don't fit names in the screen (categories), some too small (app names). openSUSE and Fedora don't have the "too big" issue. This taking into account translations that make some category to extend more than in english.
8- network in Control Center just sets proxy. same as openSUSE, but openSUSE has YaST, in Fedora Network prefs sets network config as well as proxy.

Obviously, as the gnome3-team says, the PPA and packages are still EXPERIMENTAL, so use at your own risk. My system was broke, so be aware of what you do.

Let's see when the Gnome3 build finishes as a whole and there is a meta-package to install the whole thing removing Unity. And keep interface consistency, which will be the biggest issue after stability.

Regards,
Xermán

[xerman]

I still have a "big" question...

Why Ubuntu does not have a Gnome 3 spin Live CD?

We have Unity-Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu 11.04 beta live CD's and still no Gnome3-Ubuntu.

By the way, latest Fedora Gnome30-Latest-live.iso presumably based on Fedora 15 Beta for 32 bit is awesome in liveCD, not installable. But the interface consistency is good. Take into account that apps available are mostly Gnome3. But flickering on ATI disappeared, and stability from LiveCd has improved a lot.

More in the days to come.

Regards
Xermán

[pmlxuser]

like gnome shell than unity, thats why i have intalled fedora 15 alpha, once ubuntu works fine with gnome shell will install it back..

[Copper Bezel]

I still have a "big" question...

Why Ubuntu does not have a Gnome 3 spin Live CD?

Ubuntu has been focusing on making Unity work with Gnome 2 and hasn't ported it to Gnome 3 yet. They don't have any interest in Shell (which is essentially why Unity exists) so it would make no sense to release a Gnome 3 + Shell version.

[KegHead]

Hi!

I tried Gnome w/Fedora 15.

I'm passing on this one.

I'm revisiting Xubuntu.

KegHead

[xerman]

Ubuntu has been focusing on making Unity work with Gnome 2 and hasn't ported it to Gnome 3 yet. They don't have any interest in Shell (which is essentially why Unity exists) so it would make no sense to release a Gnome 3 + Shell version.

Of course Copper. I agree with that, question is rhetoric. Though I think it would make sense to have that Gnome3-Shell version, as it makes sense to have a Xubuntu, a Kubuntu, an Edubuntu... of course there are more but are not related to Canonical.

Speaking of this, hopefully someone or some team will come up with a "Gubuntu" or a "PointG Ubuntu" or whatever name :) just as there is Lubuntu, Flubuntu, Ubuntu Studio....

Actually, we could think that if Unity is such a blast, there is no need any more for Xubuntu, Kubuntu... That way they could concentrate just in Ubuntu and make Ubuntu de MacOSX of linux and Shuttleworth be the Jobs of linux too... :)
Just joking around :)

Anyway, you are right about what you said.

Regards
Xermán

[Alex Andrascu]

Subscribing to this one. Can hardly wait for the GNOME 3 to be fixed. Really disapointed by Unity.

[t.rei]

Found this threat because I am currently looking for a solution to empathy and evolution not storing passwords. With about 5 accounts on each, that is rather tedious. Strangly enough, my icq account in evolution that I have for exactly two persons remembers it's password.

Any pointers? :D

Really liking it except for that 'minor issue' so far.

[samigina]

Ey Xerman, the Ubuntu Gnome Remix (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnometeam/+archive/gnome3) has been started; we just have to wait to see whats going on...

[xerman]

Ey Xerman, the Ubuntu Gnome Remix (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntugnometeam/+archive/gnome3) has been started; we just have to wait to see whats going on...

Hello there,

It is good news the "Ubuntu Gnome Remix" if finally is what I expect it to be, that is Ubuntu's Debian base and Gnome 3 on top with no Unity. That way no dependencies should be broken and no unnecessary apps, libs, or whatever would be installed.

These days I've been using openSUSE, and though YaST is very capable of doing things, I still don't enjoy it so much. Hopefully will get a redesign to match Gnome3, but I doubt it. I will check Fedora on a daily basis next week to see how it evolves. But at least openSUSE is much more stable than Ubuntu, for now. I have not updated Ubuntu for 3 days, and seems to have shortened the amount of system crashes. Which is good thing, though still unable to get Empathy or Evolution to remember accounts info.

I am still annoyed by the fact of Ubuntu having two instances of Evolution, while no other has same (not Fedora nor openSUSE). It does not make sense to have 2 instances of the same app in the same place with different naming.

Overall I find myself fine with the new shell. The Gnome Tweak Tool allows the three top right buttons (close, max, min) or just one or just two. The minimize is of certain use for me these days due to testing apps for this "report".

But for now, I still think Fedora has no rival in the Gnome 3 integration. Next week might change opinion after use, but for now, with liveCD it feels quite fine. Hope UGR matches Fedora on those things Fedora is winning now.

Regards.
Xermán

[mad_max0204]

Tried Xubuntu in VM. Look nice works even better.
Nice way to save up your resources.

[KegHead]

Hi!

X is my backup distro.

Now: 11.04b w/classic/2.6.39

KegHead

[bardor]

I'm sorry to say this i would not want to use ubuntu distro if i wanted gnome3 becouse they have unity as standard interface and not the real gnome3-shell if i did install gnome3 i would remove unity and install gnome3-shell instead, i have tested gnome3 on archlinux in virtualbox so i only had the fallback interface becouse off low graphics but it looked nice the themes look allot nicer then gnome2, but actually in arch you have to enable testing repos to get gnome3, but to do it you only need to uncomment some lines in repos conf file and do a update, but arch is a distro you will need to do allot in terminal, in fact when you have installed it for the first time you only have the prompt atleast i dont see a way to get desktop from the start,but that gives you a chanse to make a system that has less unneeded programs.

[PaulAlesius]

Hello, it's has been interesting to read about your experience with Gnome 3, xerman. I've installed it today (With F15 alpha) and was also looking for ways to customize it and found your post.

I'd like to add that the gsettings command is good for modifying properties and if you want fonts to look better one can change the antialiasing settings with:

gsettings set org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.xsettings antialiasing rgba
and
gsettings set org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.xsettings hinting full
and reboot

The dconf-editor is a visual editor for the gsettings that can be installed, and it also has descriptions for the settings.

I don't know if Ubuntu sets this by default and I remember that most dists I've tried didn't do this, so the fonts looked mediocre without proper antialiasing, it has a big impact on the overall experience.

Switching windows takes some getting used to too, specially with several big screens and without the taskbar, everything starts moving around each time, and I still haven't found a good way of adding my own program launchers to the big side menu.

Other than that, based on my very short Gnome 3 test (I will continue using it as my main desktop at home), I'd say it is a huge leap forward for Desktop Linux.

Also, the binary nvidia driver is a must (Or ATI.). I'm using these settings too on the "Device" sections with Nvidia, in /etc/X11/xorg.conf:

Option "AccelMethod" "XAA"
Option "Coolbits" "1"
Option "OnDemandVBlankInterrupts" "on"
Option "TrippleBuffer" "true"
Option "AllowGLXWithComposite" "true"
Option "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" "true"
Option "AddARGBVisuals" "true"
Option "AddARGBGLXVisuals" "true"
Hope that helps.

[t.rei]

and I still haven't found a good way of adding my own program launchers to the big side menu.


Just rightclick the icon of the running program and add it. Or uhm, if you want to do it without starting the programs: Press the 'icon-button' or 'go-top-left', type the app name (yeah, just type) and then drag and drop it to the dock. :)

Also, I can just immagine several big-screens being a lot of movement. How is it affecting your workflow?

[PaulAlesius]

Just rightclick the icon of the running program and add it.

Thnx!
There still needs to be a way to create custom launchers and a way to change the icons. Anyway, I won't hijack this thread.


How is it affecting your workflow?
It feels a bit excessive to have all the windows lined up just to select a smaller window (Such as maybe an IM window) that is hiding behind a maximized one. But I think gnome shell feels allright and it takes some getting used to. The best test would be to use Gnome 3 for a few weeks or so and then go back to gnome 2, and see if one misses it :)

EDIT
Since alt+tab already selects the previously selected window, this won't really be a problem.

[duk3r]

What is the proper way to try Gnome 3 in Ubuntu 10.10?
Tried:

sudo apt-get install gnome3-session
so i got another GNOME 3 option at login screen.

But i think that there's something missing from the environment. For example there wasn't Software Center anywhere. I had to run it from terminal. I'm sure there are many other things missing although they are installed...

[akila87]

menu_proxy_module_load error can be fixed by this http://alexsleat.co.uk/2010/10/19/gedit-failed-to-load-type-module-menu_proxy_module_load-ubuntu/

I removed /etc/X11/Xsession.d/80appmenu my gnome-power-manager is working now.

[doctortonic]

- Num Lock is not on by default. Weird.



Some of us have laptop;s or keyboards, witch DOSE NOT have a NUMLOCK on them or deadkeays, Fn etc. It is ok with numloc off by defalut for not freezing system and so.

ms win productes also have num lock off for this reasons

[xerman]

2011.04.14


Some of us have laptop;s or keyboards, witch DOSE NOT have a NUMLOCK on them or deadkeays, Fn etc. It is ok with numloc off by defalut for not freezing system and so.

ms win productes also have num lock off for this reasons

doctortonic, I would agree with you if when installing the system there were no "keyboard detection". When having keyboard detection, it is supposed to detect the kind of keyboard the computer has, being a 105PC intl keyboard or a 86 laptop. Anyway, you are right about that. I just use the numeric keypad a lot and there is no indicator on any panel telling numlock or capslock is on or off. This is something Gnome3 needs to add asap.


Now let's go back to business.

This week I've been using Fedora 15 to check against Ubuntu with Gnome3-Shell.

The main goal of all this thread is, from the beginning, to test drive Gnome3-Shell on a daily basis for an average user. That means, the minimum use of command line, and the easiest and most straightforward way to do things.

So here impressions on Fedora 15:
Let's first remember that test machine is an AMD64 with ATI X1250. On that PC i had firstly openSUSE then Fedora 15.

1- Fedora 15 (F15) has the standard Gnome3 look and feel all over the place. So all apps have same fonts in menus, and same font weight. Even Firefox, libreoffice...

2- No crashes reported along these days. Ubuntu keeps telling crashes occur on system apps now and then.

3- I still could not install fglrx-ati driver in F15. Not straightforward way nor command line. I tried to do a manual install but always get same "check distro" error and never got installed.

4- Starting PC always needs a hardware reset as when power on the box starts beeping two beeps "bip-bip" then waits, then again the two bips, then wait, then again... so hardware reset needed. Also happens on restart. This did not happen with openSUSE. Maybe BIOS related.

5- Suspend works fine while waking up from Suspend ends up in a system lock needing hardware reset.

6- Control Center works fine all over the place. Network setup is there not just proxy as in Ubuntu or oS (openSUSE). oS has the YaST control center to set up network IP, gateway, dns....

7- ibus works great. There is an input method section in the Control Center to add as many input methods as wanted, straightforward way. Also there is an input method indicator on the top panel that shows the current input method with the right icon.
Remember Ubuntu does not have it, neither oS. In Ubuntu the indicator is hidden in the bottom autohide notification thing.

8- Being using apt-get, aptitude for quite a long time, I used yum from terminal and found it quite appealing. Very nice. I could get used to that. Interface is cleaner than apt-get/aptitude, info is well placed and clear. Nice.

9- Pointer theme is consistent with Gnome3. Adwaita Pointer theme is all over the place. In Ubuntu, moving pointer from window over desktop changes the color from Black Adwaita to White Ubuntu Default.

10- Fonts have the right proportions. Apps Categories fit in their space without truncating names as Ubuntu does.
I still don't like the so small font for app names in the Activities-Applications.

11- Icons in the Activities-Applications seem more polished for certain non Gnome3 apps, libreoffice is a good example. Ubuntu seems to have bitmap while F15 seems to have SVG.

12- Adding-Removing software is doing by "gpackagekit", while it is quite nice, I rather use the Software Center for installing apps, cleaner and simpler.

13- Still could not manage to install screenlets. This might be due to me used to Ubuntu's repositories and not knowing yet how to manage myself in the F15 sites.

14- Installed gDesklets and they show right on the desktop. No redrawing flaws as Ubuntu where screenlets disappear and appear again on click over their place.

15- All installed packages are 64bit or noarch. oS installs plenty of 32bit things.

16- I could not yet find many apps I was used to install in Ubuntu. Mostly due to the repositories thing stated in item 13.

17- Startup and shutdown times are quite ok (if we forget about the "bip-bip" thing.

18- There are already many Gnome3 things in Fedora not available in Ubuntu. For example a gnome3-app-panel to keep an application launcher on the right side of the desktop. All are gnome-shell-extensions-"something"... like the fixed always present "power off" option in the user menu, alternate-tab, alternate-window-to-desktop, gnome-shell-user-themes, dock-style-task-switcher... etc... All of those are gnome-shell-extensions.
So those who complained about those issues, they are solved.

19- I always get a "ata4 softreset failed device not ready" on startup, what I think is the cause of the "bip-bip" thing. Did not get it with Ubuntu.

20- One thing I don't like is that F15 sets US English as default language so if I change it to Spanish, there is going to be always the "US English" there in the Language section of the Control Center. And after certain updates the System language changes back to US English forcing me to manual change it to Spanish through Control Center.

21- Gnome3 Help has the right info and images. Ubuntu's does not have the images.

I wish I could solve the ATI issue but seems to be harder, at least taking into account I do this testing on free time so not so much time for researching issues.

I did try the UGR (Ubuntu Gnome Remix) on Virtualbox. Instead of using Ubuntu Natty fresh install I used Xubuntu Natty fresh install, then added repos as the UGR team said to end up with a system not usable as GDM does not allow login. No user list, no username, just the computer name dialog. Actually, some dependencies were not met when installing the ugr-desktop-g3 gnome-shell.

The Gnome3 Help is of good use when starting to use Gnome3 if don't want to search through www.gnome.org about the things one can do with gnome-shell, like adding icons to the dash...

I keep thinking as said before that in the Gnome3 race places are:
1- Fedora 15
2- openSUSE 11.4
3- Ubuntu + Gnome3-Shell

When UGR is stable should give it a try (if can log in). Maybe then race positions change. It is supposed to be released same time as Ubuntu 11.04. So let's see what happens then next week. Hope they make an ISO.

If Fedora had a Software Center a-la Ubuntu, would be the right choice.

When I go to work and use Ubuntu 904 i miss Gnome-shell things, so for me it is good improvement.

I keep noticing that Fedora updates go slower than Ubuntu's. Maybe due to mirror issues. Internet connection is same for both.

Images of Fedora will be posted later on.

Regards
Xermán

[xerman]

Stay tuned on Monday, as on Monday I will post last test conclusions. Test will be carried out this weekend with a complete new configuration. Hope it comes out well.

Regards.
Xermán

[Scabby_al]

If you want to speed up Fedora / Red Hat / CentOS yum speeds, install the yum-fastestmirror plugin. yum install yum-plugin-fastestmirror or yum-fastestmirror (trying to go from memory).

[prome7hius]

I have just upgraded from 10.10 to 11.04 beta 2. I personally don't care for Unity. It has some similarities with Gnome shell, but I don't like that the launcher is always stuck on the side. Also desktop management is kind of a pain. The dev relases of Gnome-shell also had this problem. The way Gnome 3 now auto adds desktops is awesome! Anyway, I have been able to get Gnome 3 to run on Fedora 15 and OpenSuse 11.4 without any problems. I can not get it to run at all in Ubuntu. I get a black screen with a mouse pointer. I can swith to new tty and shutdown with the command line. I am curious if you install xubuntu or some other spinoff and install gnome 3 if you would have the same problems as you do with ubuntu. I like ubuntu for it's simplicity, but I do like gnome 3 and want to keep it as a desktop. If it will not run on ubuntu, I guess I will be switching back to Arch. I look forward to the gnome build of ubuntu. Hopefully it will fix all these issues!

[bulldog]

You can have a look here.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1722627

I did a clean install of 11.04 and Gnome-Shell is running fine.

[ingeva]

After having organised my desktop nicely, with a panel at the top and one on the left side, with nice small icons logically grouped, allowing me to schedule the applications I use most with one click, I think the new gnome 3 menu system is HORRIBLE.
The icons are MUCH too large, and a lot of scrolling in the left menu is necessary to find most of the application icons because there's far too little room for them all.
The main menu, which I had located at the top left, now creates a big ugly window which covers about 1/3 of the screen, and I can hardly find what I'm looking for.
When I run a program the "File, edit....." menu is detached from the window and shows in the top panel. Took some time to figure it out. I understand about saving space, but I would rather have that space for a configurable menu panel.
Sometime a window is maximized and I don't know why. Getting it back to normal size is very hard. Maximized windows give me stomach pain.
I set the windows theme to display the min, max and eXit icons to the top right of the app window. Suddenly I find them on the left side, and they look different.

Is this good-bye to Ubuntu, or will the release version come with a solution to these problems? Or would I be better off using Kubuntu? (Never tried it).

I've been reading through some of the writings about Gnome 3, Unity etc. and I must admit I don't understand much of it. I spend most of my time using the computer. A newer version of an OS should make the computer easier to use, not harder and slower.
When responding, please try to use simple language (BTW: English is not my first language either! :) )

[prome7hius]

When I run a program the "File, edit....." menu is detached from the window and shows in the top panel. Took some time to figure it out.)

This sounds like Unity, not Gnome 3. Although they are similar, there are a lot of differences as well. The OSx style menus (which you are talking about) are not in gnome 3, but are present in Unity. Shortcut keys can replace everything in gnome 3 pretty much. You almost don't need the mouse. for instance. to get to firefox. press the super key (key with the windows logo on it.) then type firefox and hit enter

It is different and I am not trying to change your mind, but do give it a chance and offer the devs some constructive feedback.

[ingeva]

This sounds like Unity, not Gnome 3. Although they are similar, there are a lot of differences as well. The OSx style menus (which you are talking about) are not in gnome 3, but are present in Unity. Shortcut keys can replace everything in gnome 3 pretty much. You almost don't need the mouse. for instance. to get to firefox. press the super key (key with the windows logo on it.) then type firefox and hit enter

It is different and I am not trying to change your mind, but do give it a chance and offer the devs some constructive feedback.I don't mind what you call it, but your explanation really doesn't make it easier, and I don't like the thought of having to spend weeks, or even hours, to learn something new that looks more like a giant step backwards.

Some changes are good, and without change there will be no improvement, but if one shop doesn't have the clothes I want to wear, I go to another.

Check my signature.

[pony-tail]

I would suggest you give Kubuntu a try !
It takes a bit of getting used to but it works pretty well .
Other than that wait for the Gnome 3 remix ( probably going to be named Gubuntu - I am not certain ) but I think from what you are saying it will not suit you either . The other option is Xubuntu which might suit your needs .

[xerman]

2011.04.21

Finally, and with some delay, I came to post last review. Until now, the test I carried on were:

1- openSUSE 11.4 Gnome3-Shell spinoff.
2- Fedora 15 alpha.
3- Ubuntu 10.10 updated to 11.04 and gnome3team ppa gnome3-shell.

From these tests I've already written that best overall option is Fedora 15 alpha. Much more stable than openSUSE, and light years more stable than Ubuntu.

But I did not want to give up the testing before performing last tests. These were (always talking 64 bit):

1- Ubuntu Server 11.04 beta adding gnome3team PPA.
2- Ubuntu Server 11.04 beta adding gnome remix team PPA.
3- Xubuntu 11.04 beta with gnome remix team PPA.
4- Ubuntu 11.04 beta adding gnome3team PPA.

The reason for choosing Server is obvious. Avoid Unity and all its dependencies, also that is why I tried Xubuntu.

With more work in ones than others I came up to the same result. No matter which combination I choose, none of the Ubuntu's based test can match openSUSE, and of course they are far more beyond from Fedora 15, being Fedora an Alpha release.

The Gnome3 Team, and Ubuntu Gnome Remix Team are doing a great job, in fact, outstanding, to bring gnome3-shell to ubuntu, but I always get dependency issues, lots of "system program crash" and interface mess no matter what the combination chosen.

Gnome-shell extensions are only available in Fedora right now. Today Fedora has became beta but did not try it yet. openSUSE team said that once Gnome3 is out they would make a new Gnome3 spinoff, so I presume is the Live Image available on the Gnome.org site, but did not try it yet.

So, conclusions are (from my point of view as user, not as engineer):

1- Gnome3-Shell is fully functional as of today. It is a good interface for interacting with computers, it is themeable with the extensions and the gnome-tweak-tool. So can be used on production machines without any issue. (This is just related to gnome3-shell, not the distro it runs over).

2- For using Gnome3-Shell, best option right now is Fedora. Even in its alpha stage is much more stable than any other combination shown in this thread.

3- Ubuntu has became more unstable in the latest versions that the former ones. This, taking into account that Gnome3-shell is not standard but Unity, makes the system more unstable and shows some interface mess not seen in Gnome. That is why I tried the Server combinations, though having similar results.

4- For Ubuntu to have a good Gnome3-Shell experience should have a spinoff without any Unity package so no dependencies would affect the system. This is not likely to happen in a short period of time. Business is business and Canonical is a company whose purpose is to earn money.

5- Being Fedora the best option, it still lacks some apps available in the Ubuntu's repos (universe, multiverse). And lacks a Software Center like Ubuntu's that is a must. Also update speeds are faster on openSUSE and Ubuntu than on Fedora.


Now, why I did all these testing?
1- First, I have to change my office configuration so I rather do the testing before so when I change server and workstations I know what I have to expect from the system.

2- As a user, I expect things to work, and workers are going to find new things on their computers that should give no issue. Being workstations production machines, I have to do the testing from the user point of view because they lack computer knowledge to solve those issues.

3- I've been using Ubuntu since 504 and wanted to give it a chance to prove that has evolving to be better because last experiences updating from 804 to 810 to 904 to 910 to 104 to 1010 always caused some sort of issue messing things on the desktop. This means that best way to update ubuntu is doing a Clean Install of new versions. This I have not tried with Fedora nor openSUSE because I've been using just Ubuntu on Server, Desktops and Laptop for the past 6 years.


Final words:
I want to thank all people who make Gnome, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE and the PPA's (and of course all of other distro teams and DEs). I've been using open source for work since 2003 and I will keep doing so. So whatever the result of the test was, their work is the most valuable thing the open source community has and they should be acknowledged.

Thanks a lot to all of you.
Best regards and keep doing that good job you are doing now.

Xermán

[E@zyVG]

Nice one.

I am also considering what to do with next distro releases, as want Gnome 3 complete and am not liking the Unity UI as find it more tablet/touch oriented. So far the options are Fedora 15, openSUSE Gnome 3 Spinoff (hope soon will be released to see) and Ubuntu 11.04 without Unity, where I do not know if Ubuntu will support/develop the full Gnome 3 (with Shell) experience for users who are not liking where Unity is headed.

I have been using the Ubuntu on my notebooks, but on desktop it has always been, over 8 years, openSUSE/SUSE with KDE.

[Tickborn]

Hi,
I just want to thank Xerman for sharing his impressive test work. The comunity can for sure benefeit a lot from it!

[BLTicklemonster]

I just upgraded to 11, and of course I was stuck with unity or something. Didn't work. I was left with a kindergarten set up that didn't respond when I clicked on stuff. Fortunately I could boot to cairo dock something and I at least had my desktop icons, one of which is terminal. I always keep terminal on the desktop because Ubuntu has a nasty habit of being programmed by .. people who think dashboard/kindergarten environments are cool, and don't make sure stuff works on everything.

so I installed gnome.

Woo hoo, I got my computer back.

for the most part.

Except that on my gnome-panel, I only see Applications and Places. System is no longer there.I wonder how to get it back? I can't get to some things I'm used to using!

Other than that, great job getting the up arrow back. I think Canonical might need to get back to its roots. There are so many changes in ubuntu since I started using it ages ago, that I'm always on the verge of going back to "that other system" just to keep from having the headaches endemic to this operating system. I'd hate to do that, but each dist upgrade pushes me further and further away from ubuntu. And I used to be one of its biggest fans.