Ubuntu Vista

[cap10Ibraim]

Today I was trying Natty so ..
Do you think Natty 11.04 (Unity) will be the Vista phase of Ubuntu ?
I mean Vista as in Windows Vista

[LowSky]

LOL... Vista.

11.04 is going to be a test. A test that really relies on Gnome 3. Unity is nothing more than a tweak to Gnome 3 to be fair.

[NightwishFan]

I am not sure if Natty is using much of the Gnome 3 stack yet. As far as I know it is using the new Gnome Help though.

I answered no. I think this release looks fantastic. This is one of the dev releases I really really want on my main machine.

[NCLI]

This is just plain silly.

[KiwiNZ]

It's not released yet ????????????????

[Grenage]

I quite liked Vista...

[frup]

I'm using natty with Unity and I'm not sure if I like it yet. There are many minor paper cut like things that irritate me. I'm trying to keep track of how and why, and I'm sticking with it until I become more accustomed to it and stop expecting it to be like gnome 2.x. In a few areas there are definite niceties and improvements.

From what Unity was at the time of maverick's release it has improved by leaps and bounds. I admit I was very worried leading up to October. Things have improved so much so quickly that I am confident that this will shape up as something very interesting at the very least.

I definitely see the advantage on a device like a tablet. I definitely see how it could be nice on a netbook or a huge screen desktop. On my 15inch laptop though I'm finding it lacking something. Using GIMP is very very hard in it. Some of the actions you expect from say Docky or AWN are missing in the launcher and I hope they arrive soon.

I feel the new way of using the menus will take some getting used to. Some people have been very vocal about the lack of focus on the cursor, requiring an extra click and I agree. But with all that also comes for the possibility of new ways of interacting with data like contacts which I look forward to.

I really feel the need for a control panel / command centre. I don't really miss the places menu (and it still exists but is hidden right now) but the system menu is sorely missed by myself.

The moblin/ meego project has had some ways of doing things for sometime now that I hope may find an analogous function in unity.

The rest of my thoughts require diagrams or much more thought than I am prepared to give right now.

[Lucradia]

I quite liked Vista...

I can't agree with you there. I didn't like the removal of the display properties being removed from the right-click menu on the desktop. Among other things.

[Grenage]

GUIs evolve. Why would display properties, which are unlikely to be modified frequently, need to be in the right-click context of the desktop.

Still, we could debate personal preference all day long, there's no right or wrong.

[Lucradia]

GUIs evolve. Why would display properties, which are unlikely to be modified frequently, need to be in the right-click context of the desktop.

Why do we need Show Desktop button in the lower right of Windows 7? I wish it was gone :P I wish google/windows gadgets were not installed by default. I wish Tablet PC components were not installed by default. I wish we could remove the action center icon (Windows 7) from the notification tray without having the expand icon showing up to the left of it, same with the USB Removal icon. I wish Windows search index wasn't installed by default, and Microsoft was forced to go back to the old days of searching everything. I wish Windows Experience Index didn't exist. I wish we didn't have to go online for non-prebuilt windows copies to activate, and not use a software to make that not happen. I wish Microsoft would make Windows FOSS, and just focus on gaming, so they actually have a chance at competing correctly.


Still, we could debate personal preference all day long, there's no right or wrong.

Indubitably.

[bug67]

Natty is to Ubuntu as Vista is to Windows? No.

As much as I may or may not like the Unity interface, I can bet with almost 100% certainty that Natty will be a much more usable OS than Vista. Plus, unlike Vista, if I don't like Natty's GUI, I can readily change it.

[bobppower]

I quite liked Vista...

that shocked me... :confused:

[Paqman]

Do you think Natty 11.04 (Unity) will be the Vista phase of Ubuntu ?

I assume you mean: will Unity be unpopular?

I hope not, although it probably will be initially. Most people hate change.

After an adjustment period the existing users will have either all got used to it, switched it off or distro hopped. The real losers in the short term will be the new users, who'll be faced with an unfamiliar interface and lots of bugs, and i'm worried many will write off Ubuntu after struggling with it. Once Unity has been through a couple of cycles i'm hoping it'll settle down and become a nice interface. It'd be nice if it was 90% there in time for Natty, but i'm not very encouraged by Alpha 3, it's still really flaky, and not particularly easy to use when it is working.

[jerenept]

Today I was trying Natty so ..
Do you think Natty 11.04 (Unity) will be the Vista phase of Ubuntu ?
I mean Vista as in Windows Vista

Yes, it will. The main reason Vista got so much bad press was that people were running it on computers that couldn't handle it. Vista is quite a good OS IMHO.

It also introduced a new UI, and a lot of new systems that people thought they didn't want.

Ubuntu 11.04 introduces a new UI, which will take up more CPU/RAM etc.
There is also the new Unity interface, which people are attacking for no good reason, and new systems (like the the Dash, etc.) that will take getting used to.

[rg4w]

By "Vista" do you mean "a long-overdue rethink on how people interact with their computers" or "failure to get everything right in the first attempt at such a rethink"?

Personally, I see it as a little of both.

Unity holds great promise to further Canonical's agenda of introducing Linux to new audiences by emphasizing usability.

But on the flipside there are a few oddities in Unity that seem to contradict common usability heuristics which may impede adoption among the very users it targets.

I see Natty as a bold move in a useful direction, but without more usability testing on multiple prototypes (does the team take advantage of paper prototypes (http://www.uie.com/articles/prototyping_risk/) in early testing?) it'll take real-world deployment to flesh out the weaknesses, so I suspect it'll become truly great by the time the next LTS is due.

In the meantime it's still Linux so you can choose any desktop you like: Gnome 2 is preinstalled as an option, Gnome 3 will be available soon, and then there's Kubuntu and everything else. If you enjoy the bleeding edge 11.04 can be a good time, but I also appreciate the LTS series for those who prefer stability and consistency.

[sydbat]

people hate changeQFT.

To answer the OP - no and yes...it is all in what I quoted from Paqman.

[Roasted]

Clearly this thread is sarcastic.

[Kirboosy]

Ok. I don't think 11.04 will be Vista. I see one of the 10.** series being more like Vista...

I really like how fast and dynamic Ubuntu is. With it constantly changing and everything. One big reason why I use Ubuntu is because its always new and fresh. I've tried many different versions of Linux and I always come back to Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is nooby linux to some but I find it awesome. It doesn't take long to setup and it is highly stable and fast for me. I used to use Gentoo for servers and what not but it took so much effort to get it to do one simple task. Ubuntu Server makes it so easy and less time consuming.

In the business world you always hear "Time is money" well with Ubuntu you save so much time that you make money. :)

Also I really enjoy the community in Ubuntu. Sure there are some people I want to dropkick all the way to the moon but overall its fun to help out. Until a few months ago I had less than 20 beans. I started helping the community and really enjoying it. Now I'm over 500 and I'm like "How the heck did I get all these?"

~Caboose

[kaldor]

Yes. Because a new GUI definitely means it sucks.

:|

[uRock]

Most people hate change.
Yup, I remember the fiasco of tears when the window buttons were moved to the left.

This thread will soon be merged with the Unity Mega Thread. Nevermind. Leaving here for now, because of the poll.

[3Miro]

Gnome-shell would have been more of a problem. Unity is a smaller change than that. People will hate Unity, but 11.04 will not be that bad. I think Unity would be much better than KDE 4.0.

[cap10Ibraim]

lots of bugs, and i'm worried many will write off Ubuntu after struggling with it.
It's not that I hate change , its about bugs -- Unity need more time testing
I experienced lots of random bugs with different scenarios ,

[kabloink]

Yup, I remember the fiasco of tears when the window buttons were moved to the left.

This thread will soon be merged with the Unity Mega Thread. Nevermind. Leaving here for now, because of the poll.

Thank goodness the windicators which were the claimed reason for that change showed up in 10.10 desktop to dry up those tears. Oh wait.....

[cariboo]

Considering that Unity is going through a complete rewrite, and development has only been going on for 5 months, I'm amazed at how stable it is on supported hardware.

[JDShu]

:mad:

Natty is the worst Ubuntu release ever!!!

Whoops, too early... I'll come back to this in a month or two.

[Paqman]

It's not that I hate change , its about bugs -- Unity need more time testing
I experienced lots of random bugs with different scenarios ,

It's in Alpha, the only reason you should be running it is to find and report bugs anyway.

I'm more concerned about some of the quirky interface decisions that seem to have been made. For example, the way we're expected to launch an application is to go to the applications menu and search for it by name. We've got a keyboard shortcut to get to the apps menu (good), but after typing in the name you have to switch back to the mouse to actually launch it. Switching back and forth from mouse to keyboard and back to mouse just to launch an app is cumbersome. This needs to be sorted out for the release version.

[cbennett926]

I think that with how much Vista was Linux/Ubuntu and how much operating systems have been so similar in certain aspects, that no matter what there will always be distinct similarities as well as distinct differences. With that said, as always Ubuntu will be different, I think Natty will be a test on a new type of software; Windows 7 would be a better comparative because Vista was still very close to XP, but 7 is completely different looking. Much like how Ubuntu 10 and Vista are so similar, but Natty is a lot like 7, more so than Vista.

[sffvba[e0rt]

Nothing wrong with Vista (after the Service Packs, and if you already had 4GB of Ram...)

As of Unity... been giving it a test drive for a week or two... it grows on one...


404

[inkrypted]

I doubt it will allow me to test Gnome much as I will be installing the Kubuntu flavor.

[beew]

This is ridiculous. Hello? This is only an alpha and if you don't like Unity you would still have the option to switch back to the Classical Desktop. Despite the bugs (to be expected) I actually found that it boots amazing fast.

[mmsmc]

that is true, i expect unity to get better and better, remmember guys this is ubuntu, weve come far

[danbuter]

I think Gnome 3.0 is going to be very similar in quality to KDE 4.0. So all the gnome distributions that ship it will be hurting. Maybe OpenSUSE will regain some market share that it lost a couple years ago.

[uRock]

I think Gnome 3.0 is going to be very similar in quality to KDE 4.0. So all the gnome distributions that ship it will be hurting. Maybe OpenSUSE will regain some market share that it lost a couple years ago.
Maybe that is why Canonical is taking gnome shell a step further with Unity. Only time will tell.

[Rasa1111]

lol,
i voted yes, :lol:
but only in the sense that I will not want to use it, and wont like it
(like vista)

but Im sure it will actually work well ,
unlike vista. lol

I also read the other day that Gnome3 might end up with no minimize/maximize buttons, but only a close button.
:rolleyes:

I wish i could just keep 10.10 forever... lol :lol:

[Shibblet]

This is just plain silly.

I only have one issue with Unity, and that's the launcher.

[ikt]

lol,
i voted yes, :lol:
but only in the sense that I will not want to use it, and wont like it
(like vista)

What don't you like about unity?

[beew]

I wish i could just keep 10.10 forever... lol :lol:

Same here. My 10.10 is perfect, I like everything about it and my customization. It is fast and smooth and everything works. I will have a test installation for 11.04 but I won't upgrade, I will wait for 11.10 or even 12.04. It has nothing to do with Unity per se, I just don't like the idea of having to upgrade every 6 months when the last release is still fresh.

Meanwhile I get most of my apps from PPAs so I would have updated software, this way my 10.10 will have a long shelf life.

[BrokenKingpin]

I have no interest in Unity, but I am looking forward to XFCE 4.8 on 11.04.

[Rasa1111]

What don't you like about unity?

I don't really like anything about it, to be honest.
Ive used it a handful of times on a friends machine...
and I really just havent seen anything about it that makes me say "wow, nice!" ~
I'd like to like it, really I would.
I just,.. don't see it.

Maybe it will grow on me eventually, who knows :confused:. lol

I love Ubuntu enough to believe that you guys know what youre doing,.. and do it for good reason..
so i trust that...

I just cant imagine how Unity would be better for me in any way than my current setup.
<3

[ikt]

Maybe it will grow on me eventually, who knows :confused:. lol

Yeah, I am a bit the same, if something is working really well for me, changing it drastically can be a bit confusing, but classic gnome is still there and I'm really enjoying unity, it is a step in the right direct imo, the more I learn and look at gnome 3 the more I approve of canonicals direction.

[_outlawed_]

I quite liked Vista...

To be honest, so did I. I never had ANY problems with Vista at all.

[Lucradia]

To be honest, so did I. I never had ANY problems with Vista at all.

I had problems where I needed to run almost every single program (especially games) I loved in XP Mode. Windows 7 corrected that.

[aG93IGRvIGkgdWJ1bnR1Pw==]

Ubuntu's non-LTS releases have always been beta-quality at best. No change there.

[Simian Man]

Both were big changes and people like overreacting to change. But, I very much doubt Ubuntu 11.04 will be as good as Vista was.

[cap10Ibraim]

different chart about poll results after 68 votes

[cariboo]

different chart about poll results after 68 votes

Where did the beans come from, because if you counted the number of beans each person that voted has, the results would be really different.

[aG93IGRvIGkgdWJ1bnR1Pw==]

different chart about poll results after 68 votes

The logical conclusion is that, unsurprisingly, people disillusioned with ubuntu are reluctant to provide free tech support to people who can't be bothered to google their issues. Because that's what beans are, a measure of how often you've answered a question that could be solved with google or man pages. Stop acting like beans are some objective measure of self-worth like karma on Slashdot and Lesswrong.

[ikt]

Stop acting like beans are some objective measure of self-worth like karma on Slashdot and Lesswrong.

:(

[NightwishFan]

I picked no. 4 grand on my side baby. **ahem** :)

[Dubslow]

I don't mind Unity in general, except that now the top panel is cluttered and useless. The System and Places menus were there for a reason, and now I have to go through a whole other menu to get to them. The part I hate the most is that the menus for whatever program is in focus are now on the panel, as opposed to in the relevant window. That is stupid and dumb: Options and commands for a specific window should be in that window, not in a place where I run system wide commands like my panel. (It also looks too much like Mac and Windows, which is what I'm trying to avoid with Ubuntu.) Ubuntu is so uncluttered right now, and it seems so far that Unity is moving in the opposite direction, which is disappointing. This still applies in the "Classic Desktop" Option, which also sucks.

On an unrelated note, is there anyway to downgrade my system from 10.10 to 10.04 without a reinstall? 10.10 has had stability issues on my hardware, (and other people as well) whereas I have friends with the same hardware who had no problems with 10.04.

[jerenept]

I don't mind Unity in general, except that now the top panel is cluttered and useless. The System and Places menus were there for a reason, and now I have to go through a whole other menu to get to them. The part I hate the most is that the menus for whatever program is in focus are now on the panel, as opposed to in the relevant window. That is stupid and dumb: Options and commands for a specific window should be in that window, not in a place where I run system wide commands like my panel. (It also looks too much like Mac and Windows, which is what I'm trying to avoid with Ubuntu.) Ubuntu is so uncluttered right now, and it seems so far that Unity is moving in the opposite direction, which is disappointing. This still applies in the "Classic Desktop" Option, which also sucks.

On an unrelated note, is there anyway to downgrade my system from 10.10 to 10.04 without a reinstall? 10.10 has had stability issues on my hardware, (and other people as well) whereas I have friends with the same hardware who had no problems with 10.04.
APT has no facilities for downgrading, you will need to reinstall.
and stop hatin' man jeez, the constant Unity-hating is really getting annoying. :evil:

[cap10Ibraim]

Where did the beans come from, because if you counted the number of beans each person that voted has, the results would be really different.
*for each answer I counted (sum) the number of beans of each voter then computed their average - using google docs - here is the link for the spreadsheet
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AllDmw9YvzLAdERRX0lxcE9KbEQtWllHMDZFR3AwU kE&hl=en
anyway I think it shows experienced Ubuntu'rs vote for NO , and mostly newcomers are skeptic

[Chilli Bob]

Honestly, if you mean will 11.04 make people who try it say "screw this!" and buy a Mac, then yes, I fear it will be the new Vista.

I haven't had time to try 11.04 yet, but have used Unity on 10.10 netbook edition, and frankly it is terrible. Sure it may be an Alpha, but Alphas have no place in official releases. It may be a good UI one day, but not yet

Unless of course it has made giant strides, but none of the improvements are being passed down to 10.10. Somehow I don't think so.

[NightwishFan]

I haven't had time to try 11.04 yet

:rolleyes:

[Chilli Bob]

:rolleyes:

Hey, some of us have a life outside of Ubuntu. I've tested every Alpha since 6.10, but my time is too valuable this year.

I stand by my experiences with Unity.

[NightwishFan]

I sincerely hope you are not implying that I do not have a life outside Ubuntu.

The "time" in your statement was not my problem. I was just poking fun at those big assumptions you made about 11.04 when you never even tried it.

I am not attacking you.

[ikt]

Hey, some of us have a life outside of Ubuntu. I've tested every Alpha since 6.10, but my time is too valuable this year. .

Download ISO image from local mirror: ~10minutes - 1 hour (depending on connection speed)

Time to setup in virtualbox: ~1 minute

Time to install: ~10 minutes

Assuming you download overnight and/or don't sit there staring at your computer as it downloads, do you really not have 30 minutes to test 11.04?

[Paqman]

Download ISO image from local mirror: ~10minutes - 1 hour (depending on connection speed)

Time to setup in virtualbox: ~1 minute

Time to install: ~10 minutes

Assuming you download overnight and/or don't sit there staring at your computer as it downloads, do you really not have 30 minutes to test 11.04?

Hmm. I regularly test the development release, and I definitely accept that to do it properly involves a bit more of a time commitment than you're suggesting.

Testing it properly involves using it for the full range of your day-to-day tasks. That means installing all your regular applications and getting it set up the way your desktop normally is. That could take minutes or it could take hours, depending on your setup. On top of that, many third party applications may not be supported and/or require extensive Googling/fiddling. For every issue you do find you're going to be reading forums, searching the internet, and scouring Launchpad, plus when the bugs do pop up you'll be spending time filling in bug reports, which may require further testing and investigation.

Downloading updates overnight is a good idea, but not everybody likes leaving a power-gobbling PC on overnight.

I'm very busy myself this year, and find myself much less able to contribute effectively to testing.

[NightwishFan]

I personally only have alpha 3 in virtualbox. I have not done much testing either.

[JRV]

I am withholding judgment until the final release, it is not fair to pass judgment on an alpha release.

Unity desperately needs a way to edit/manage menus. I have a few games I like to play and I didn't like having a icon for each in the launcher. I had to create a text based menu. That was the easy part. The process to put that menu into the launcher was much harder that it should be.

I was glad to see that remote login via XDMCP is possible again in Natty after it was missing in Maverick.

[rg4w]

I am withholding judgment until the final release, it is not fair to pass judgment on an alpha release.
On the flipside, prior to release is arguably the best time to offer feedback, since once it's released it's too late until another half-year passes.

[JRV]

Yes, offer feedback, but I will not be making the decision to use Unity, or not, until I see the final release.

[beew]

Much attention has been focused on Unity, but how about other things? Does hardware work out of box? Is wireless ok etc? (Wireless work for me at least on one machine)

10.10 is amazingly fast and solid, but it builds on 10.04 (which is also very good) Can 11.04 build on its success in terms of performance? I think this is a more important questions than Unity. The UI is not great at this point and I have many issues with it, but the Classic Desktop is one click away so Unity is not really a make or break issue for this release, well it shouldn't be.

I am not upgrading to Natty, 6 month is just too soon for changing OS (aside: now how is this "stable" for people who argue against ppas or rolling on ground of stability?)

I intend to keep Maverick until 11.10 or maybe even 12.04 LTS. Maverick is just too good at this point(software is very updated through ppas) But if I were to upgrade to Natty, I would just use the Classic Desktop, get rid of the old fashioned gnome bottom panel and add the cairo dock like I do now with 10.10. It is not "classic" looking, cooler than Unity but way more functional and customizable and no pesty global menu.

Hopefully by 11.10 Unity will have its issues ironed out, more requested functionality will be added (or there will be community patches avaliable)

[NCLI]

Yes, it will. The main reason Vista got so much bad press was that people were running it on computers that couldn't handle it. Vista is quite a good OS IMHO.

It also introduced a new UI, and a lot of new systems that people thought they didn't want.

Ubuntu 11.04 introduces a new UI, which will take up more CPU/RAM etc.
There is also the new Unity interface, which people are attacking for no good reason, and new systems (like the the Dash, etc.) that will take getting used to.

Sorry, but that's bull. Unity 3D uses no more resources than Gnome 2.0 with Compiz, and Unity 2D no more than Gnome 2.0 with metacity.

[jerenept]

Sorry, but that's bull. Unity 3D uses no more resources than Gnome 2.0 with Compiz, and Unity 2D no more than Gnome 2.0 with metacity.

Hmmm..... that is true, I suppose.
But the general point of my argument was:
Vista got a bad rep because: People tried to run it on slow computers that couldn't take the pressure
and, People don't like change.

Both of those could apply to haters of Unity.

[uRock]

Hmmm..... that is true, I suppose.
But the general point of my argument was:
Vista got a bad rep because: People tried to run it on slow computers that couldn't take the pressure
and, People don't like change.

Both of those could apply to haters of Unity.

Yup!

[beew]

Hmmm..... that is true, I suppose.
But the general point of my argument was:
Vista got a bad rep because: People tried to run it on slow computers that couldn't take the pressure
and, People don't like change.

Both of those could apply to haters of Unity.


Vista gets bad rap because it is bad. I have seen vista run on fast computers and still grind to a halt with all the crap going on in the background. If it is just because of old hardware why is it that Win7 runs better on some of these same machines?

[jerenept]

Vista gets bad rap because it is bad. I have seen vista run on fast computers and still grind to a halt with all the crap going on in the background. If it is just because of old hardware why is it that Win7 runs better on some of these same machines?

What I mean is, that people would try to run it on the "Base specs" MS recommended (512MB Ram, P4/Sempron, Minimal graphics) and people started crying foul. then of course, people didn't like UAC, or the new Aero interface, and started the "XP was waaaay better" tirade, like the "Win2K was waaay better" tirade we saw 10 years ago.

[BigCityCat]

I have been testing it. Sure it's an alpha and after it has seen some time in the sun people will come along and customize it and it will be better.

The things I don't like about it and gnome 3 are. They take up far too much screen space to accomplish the same things. Right now I have a panel with a few quick launch apps and an unintrusive drop down menu that can find an app very quickly. That takes up very little space. With Unity when you launch the dash it's huge and you really have to maximise it to the whole screen to get any use out of it.

If for some reason developers think people are going to move to small screens just because of mobile your crazy. I like a big screen. I would use a small screen out and about but not at home. No reason for a mobile or netbook interface for home computers.

I really dislike KDE and I used it for a couple of years. I will give unity and gnome 3 a chance to develope and I will stick with Lucid LTS for a while. If they develope well and I like one of them I will probably start using them. If not I think xfce will be very good in a couple of years

[jerenept]

you can set the launcher to hide. Invalid.

Try KDE on any distro other than KUbuntu. You might like it.

(I recommend Sabayon and OpenSUSE)

[Shining Arcanine]

Today I was trying Natty so ..
Do you think Natty 11.04 (Unity) will be the Vista phase of Ubuntu ?
I mean Vista as in Windows Vista

They are using glibc 2.13, which has a reverse memcpy() that will trigger bugs in the usage of memcpy() in numerous userland applications, so yes.

[BigCityCat]

you can set the launcher to hide. Invalid.

Try KDE on any distro other than KUbuntu. You might like it.

(I recommend Sabayon and OpenSUSE)

It's not the launcher I'm talking about. It's the dashboard.

I might give KDE a try agian in a couple of years.

[ikt]

I'm very busy myself this year, and find myself much less able to contribute effectively to testing.

The original problem was that you haven't tried ubuntu 11.04, I'm suggesting anyone can try 11.04 or any ubuntu dev release fairly quickly, even if you only get to muck around with it for 30 minutes, you'll still get an idea of how unity works, how to find files, the new control centre, dash, applications places, and many other things, thus having tried 11.04, you will have something to backup your comments on it. :KS

[jerenept]

It's not the launcher I'm talking about. It's the dashboard.

I might give KDE a try agian in a couple of years.

I don't understand what is wrong with Dash. When you're using an application, the dash is covered up by it, so, no screen space lost. I don't understand.

[danbuter]

People don't like change.



People don't like unnecessary change. Gnome Shell and Unity developers don't understand this at all, or worse, don't care.

[ikt]

People don't like unnecessary change. Gnome Shell and Unity developers don't understand this at all, or worse, don't care.

What some percieve as unnecessary others perceive as crucial.

[johntaylor1887]

I might give KDE a try agian in a couple of years.

That's the way I feel too. Maybe that's why opensuse never seems to work good for me. Like opensuse, I keep giving KDE "one more shot" to win me over, and it falls short every time. I'm seriously thinking about going all openbox and saying to hell with all these screwed up DE's.

[Rasa1111]

well well...

I should have known...

all this "Unity is awesome" talk...
got me to d-load a copy of 11.04 alpha3, :lol:

If it wasnt Ubuntu it wouldnt have happened! lol

Anyway...
I stuck the CD into my desktop first (1024x768 ) screen res.
It booted up great, but Unity did not appear?
Why not?
the screen res?

Everything i did, would not bring unity to the surface. lol

Then I decided to try in my thinkpad z61t,
(1280x800) res, and I only got as far as booting to the desktop..
(only the wallpaper, and the mouse)
nothing else would come up.

Then a little window saying "compiz crashed and there is not enough memory to send a crash report" (or something like that) lol

I have 2GB of RAM tho..
Should be plenty.. lol

Anyway.. it wouldnt go any further, than giving me the wallpaper, and the ability to move my mouse pointer around..
So i popped the disc out and rebooted to my 10.10 install.

Oh well..
Least I tried! lol

[beew]

What some percieve as unnecessary others perceive as crucial.

Sorry dude, this is a rather lame response. Instead of arguing along the line of change vs the same how about explaining why you think the change is better or worse? Surely not all changes are good, it is just as irrational to embrace all changes as it would be to reject them simply because they are new.

FYI I voted no in the poll. I don't think Natty is going to be like vista and Unity is probably still a better option among other alternatives (GS, KDE, Windows 98 styled theming in Mint...) , but I am not very thrilled about the lack of options and the awkward laid out, the global menu, the worst part is that it is not very customizable. For example, Mark S already said you won't be able to move the dock (let alone removing it) because it is integral to their design etc. I can't see how it is a good thing that they remove choice from you (mind you, not that they can't implement that option just now, but a flat no because Mark thinks that he knows better how you should experience your desktop). Even in Mac you can move the dock around!

[Shining Arcanine]

It's not the launcher I'm talking about. It's the dashboard.

I might give KDE a try agian in a couple of years.

What is the dashboard?


People don't like unnecessary change. Gnome Shell and Unity developers don't understand this at all, or worse, don't care.

From what I can tell, the GNOME developers are concerned about their needs and they only code for themselves. They don't seem to care about whether or not other people use their software so long as it suits their purposes. That seems to be the general attitude of the GNU developers in general and it is not restricted to GNOME.

[jerenept]

well well...

I should have known...

all this "Unity is awesome" talk...
got me to d-load a copy of 11.04 alpha3, :lol:

If it wasnt Ubuntu it wouldnt have happened! lol

Anyway...
I stuck the CD into my desktop first (1024x768 ) screen res.
It booted up great, but Unity did not appear?
Why not?
the screen res?

Everything i did, would not bring unity to the surface. lol

Then I decided to try in my thinkpad z61t,
(1280x800) res, and I only got as far as booting to the desktop..
(only the wallpaper, and the mouse)
nothing else would come up.

Then a little window saying "compiz crashed and there is not enough memory to send a crash report" (or something like that) lol

I have 2GB of RAM tho..
Should be plenty.. lol

Anyway.. it wouldnt go any further, than giving me the wallpaper, and the ability to move my mouse pointer around..
So i popped the disc out and rebooted to my 10.10 install.

Oh well..
Least I tried! lol

press <ctrl><alt> F1.
Type in login details.
run command "unity"
???
Profit?

This used to work for me in the days of alpha1 when it used to crash on startup. (Unity works fine every time now, for me.)
I might mention that this is an upgrade of an upgrade (10.04>10.10>11.04) I don't like re-downloading all my applications.

[Paqman]

The original problem was that you haven't tried ubuntu 11.04, I'm suggesting anyone can try 11.04 or any ubuntu dev release fairly quickly, even if you only get to muck around with it for 30 minutes, you'll still get an idea of how unity works, how to find files, the new control centre, dash, applications places, and many other things, thus having tried 11.04, you will have something to backup your comments on it. :KS

Er, I think you might have replied to the wrong person. It was Chilli Bob who said he hadn't had time to test Natty.

[chessnerd]

Personally, I thought that 9.10 was Ubuntu's "Vista" and that 10.04 was Ubuntu's "7" so we are already on Windows 9. :p

(It would be a funnier comparison if I could get back the hours I spent working on audio issues with Karmic, or if I could undo the dozens of full-system crashes on my laptop, or if the wireless card wouldn't have been so wonky, or...)

It's hard to tell whether or not Natty will flop. My initial impression is that it won't. I do plan on upgrading my desktop to 11.04 to try it out and because the release finally works well with the wireless card that the computer has. In my experience, the *.04 releases are pretty solid (even the non-LTS ones), while I didn't care for Intrepid, Karmic, or Maverick, I loved Hardy, Jaunty, and Lucid.

Honestly, anything that I don't like about 11.04 is either easily undone (like the global menu and dock) or something that I didn't like about either of the 10.* releases (like having a strong focus on social networking). For some reason, unlike the previous releases, I don't care as much about defaults. I've basically given up on the idea of Ubuntu being "my OS" right out of the box. I've thought about switching, but nothing else out there is really that compelling and it only takes a few hours to set Ubuntu right when I get it onto a computer.

[ikt]

Sorry dude, this is a rather lame response. Instead of arguing along the line of change vs the same how about explaining why you think the change is better or worse?

You missed my point, my point was that while you might consider change a bad thing, the guy who runs the whole show thinks it's absolutely critical and considering the usability feedback I've seen, I think I agree with him.



Surely not all changes are good, it is just as irrational to embrace all changes as it would be to reject them simply because they are new.

Indeed, but I'm not arguing that all changes are good, I'm arguing that the rather large changes in 11.04 are necessary.



I can't see how it is a good thing that they remove choice from you (mind you, not that they can't implement that option just now, but a flat no because Mark thinks that he knows better how you should experience your desktop). Even in Mac you can move the dock around!

I agree with you, (despite that when I look at most linux desktop screenshots, 98% are horrific, %1 are very pretty but usability nightmares, and 1% seem to hit the mark)I think that there should be more customisation, and when I get a chance to talk to Mark that will be the focus of my question. I've actually submitted 2 requests about the launcher,

Allow the launcher to be resizeable:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/713087

Allow launcher to be moveable:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/713083

So far the 1st one has been implemented, and I can see why the 2nd hasn't been implemented, it would take quite a lot of energy to get it to look right, it's still on the list (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design) but that said I would like to know why customisation wasn't included in the original specification.


Er, I think you might have replied to the wrong person. It was Chilli Bob who said he hadn't had time to test Natty.

Sort of,

- Chilli Bob didn't have enough time to try 11.04 in order to backup his comments about 11.04
- I responded that he could be trying it in under 30 minutes
- You responded that testing takes time
- I responded by saying that this isn't about testing, it's about trying or having a demo run of 11.04. (I did mix you up with the other guy though, sorry :p)


Anyway...
I stuck the CD into my desktop first (1024x768 ) screen res.
It booted up great, but Unity did not appear?
Why not?
the screen res?

Everything i did, would not bring unity to the surface. lol


Did you have your graphics card drivers installed and activated?

[SunWarming]

Evolution comes with new things, if they don't work, we will go back and try again. At least nothing stops. Don't like 11.04? Wait for 11.10, it's only 6 months.

[BigCityCat]

What is the dashboard?



From what I can tell, the GNOME developers are concerned about their needs and they only code for themselves. They don't seem to care about whether or not other people use their software so long as it suits their purposes. That seems to be the general attitude of the GNU developers in general and it is not restricted to GNOME.

I guess I should say Dash.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/quick-tip-enable-full-screen-dash-in-natty-desktop/

To me the dash is not as good as the drop down menu we currently have. Uses too much space and doesn't improve on the amount of time it takes to find something.

[jerenept]

I guess I should say Dash.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/03/quick-tip-enable-full-screen-dash-in-natty-desktop/

To me the dash is not as good as the drop down menu we currently have. Uses too much space and doesn't improve on the amount of time it takes to find something.

Never used it, have you?
Or are you the kind of person that just hates change?

[Paqman]

Never used it, have you?
Or are you the kind of person that just hates change?

That's a bit harsh. I have used it, and I agree with the criticism that it's slower than the present menus, or alternatives like AWN and Gnome-do. I don't like the fact you can't do it all with the mouse (or keyboard), and have to switch back and forth between the two to use it. That's bonkers IMO.

[BigCityCat]

Never used it, have you?
Or are you the kind of person that just hates change?

I'm testing it on my other partition. I also said previously that it would probably get better and I was still open to it.

[jerenept]

That's a bit harsh. I have used it, and I agree with the criticism that it's slower than the present menus, or alternatives like AWN and Gnome-do. I don't like the fact you can't do it all with the mouse (or keyboard), and have to switch back and forth between the two to use it. That's bonkers IMO.


I'm testing it on my other partition. I also said previously that it would probably get better and I was still open to it.

Sorry, it's just the people who hate on change just because it's there, they really annoy me, and I was venting my spleen on you all. Sorry about that :(

[bummm]

Vista? no its more like win 8 would be released with the GUI from win 3.XX as default.

the problem isn't "being afraid of change" or if there are bugs.

I always go with what suits me the best, without bias.

I'm sure that from a technical stand point all the bugs will be fixed soon enough, & it will be a fast, smooth experience, have no doubt about that.

the problems is the philosophy behind how you interact with it, its totally backwards to what Im looking for in a desktop environment. With the current philosophy on what their trying to accomplish, its a huge step backwards & thus I will not use unity.

for every new release of ubuntu there are more and more things I need to change, tweak or uninstall. My next install will be Debian , or I might give *BSD a chance. & if Ubuntu default installation doesnt turn into the train wreck I think it will, then i'll be back.

[scouser73]

I think 11.04 will be just like Ubuntu.....ahh yes, Ubuntu, that's it now.

[thenickrulz]

I think 11.04 will be just like Ubuntu.....ahh yes, Ubuntu, that's it now.
I agree too!!!:):P

[BigCityCat]

I'm using it right now. Another thing I don't understand. I like the global menu. The problem I have with it is if I am using the file browser and it is not maximized then I have to go all the way up to the panel to access the menus. Shouldn't the global menu only be active when an application is maximized?

[BigCityCat]

Sorry, it's just the people who hate on change just because it's there, they really annoy me, and I was venting my spleen on you all. Sorry about that :(

No problem.

[beew]

Sorry, it's just the people who hate on change just because it's there, they really annoy me, and I was venting my spleen on you all. Sorry about that :(

It really annoys me both ways. Those who automatically reject or embrace change simply because it is new and different. Changes can be for the better or the worse, it is irrational to categorically say you hate or like change. But on the subject of Unity it is often (though not always) the latter who annoy me more.

Many people who say they don't like Unity do tell you exactly why, they tell you what functionalities are lost in the new UI and how it takes more work to do the same thing,--if it is possible at all,-- and how the new UI is less flexible to customization.They give you reasons for their dislike. But I seldom hear any argument from the other side as to why the change are positive other than it is "new" and it would be good to the "average user". Who is this "average user"? Nobody knows or has heard from him/her, it is a fictional character as far as I can tell. The worst part is that they try to browbeat people into liking Unity by dismissing people who are not so enthusiastic as simply "afraid of change". This is just bully boy tactic.

[danbuter]

I agree completely with beew. Even in the face of rational, explained criticism, it appears that UI devs for KDE, Gnome, and Unity all just keep on going the way they want. It seems they just don't care what anyone but the devs in their little group think.

[uRock]

Or the number of dissatisfied people is smaller than you think.

IMHO, this is like thinking Ford should keep the same body style and engineering in every model Mustang in the future. People will get bored and move on to the group that is changing.

I bet if the devs just kept the GUI the same and upgraded the kernel there'd be even more complaining that Ubuntu has gone stale while the others are putting it in the dust.

Imagine if Windows Vista had the same GUI as XP, who'd waste their money on an upgrade with no innovation?

[Sven6210]

I am amazed how many people join for a discussion about the UI - it really is a topic.

Actually I think an Operating System (OS) is more than just the UI. Let's have a look at Windows Vista, I think 75 - 80 % of the people here would agree that Windows 7 is far better than Windows Vista (not that we are Windows fans, just being fair). Did the UI change considerably? I do not think so. Therefore I conclude that a good OS is more than just a UI. And changing the UI does not make a good OS necessarily bad and a bad OS better.

Now what is it that Ubuntu really wants? They want to offer an easy to use OS with the best possible UI. And what is it that Gnome wants? Absolutely the same. The difference is, that Gnome and Ubuntu have a different opinions about the way the UI shall look like. While Gnome is working on the GnomeShell, Ubuntu identified Unity and wants to combine it with "Zeitgeist". So Ubuntu is not only replacing GnomeShell with Unity but with Unity+Zeitgeist.

I am not sure whether I will like this concept. Actually I used Unity short time already and was not a big fan of it so far. But I would not mind to give it another try. And maybe I will even like it after some time. Sometimes new things must be tried. Would Apple be so successful if they would have tried to have a similar user experience as Windows? No, they went completely new ways and people like it. And maybe one day people will like Ubuntu with Unity. Let's see and give it a try.

And in case we do not like it, Ubuntu still gives us the flexibility to use a Gnome Shell. Isn't that what the current Ubuntu users love about our Ubuntu? We can really modify the Destop and adapt it to our taste. We did so before (using Gnome, using KDE, using XFCE) and we will probably also do so in the future.

And in the end, aren't we all keen on seeing Ubuntu's market share to increase? So far Linux has app. 2 % market share. If Unity helps to increase it to 5 % I would be happy. And if not, if users really prefer the GnomeShell, then the users will decide so and Ubuntu will respect it at some point. We, the users, will decide in the end. And this is the advantage of Open Source, we are not depending on one company which dictates what we shall like.

I look forward to Unity and I would be happy to see it becoming a success - whether I use it or not.

By the way, I am looking forward to see X11 being replaced with Wayland. Another brave step and a big experiment. And who knows, maybe most of us will use Wayland with Unity and Zeitgeist in the future and will have the same discussion about new planned changes to the UI???

[Rasa1111]

Ok,
Got 11.04 with Unity running properly on my thinkpad.

I used it for as long as I could (about 2 hours)..
Only to be made fully aware again of why I dislike Unity soo much. lol

I tried.

I also tried to log out (of the liveCD) user session, to switch to regular GNOME2, but could not find the option. :/

No way will I ever use Unity.
Guess that is in concrete now. lol

[beew]

Or the number of dissatisfied people is smaller than you think.

IMHO, this is like thinking Ford should keep the same body style and engineering in every model Mustang in the future. People will get bored and move on to the group that is changing.

I bet if the devs just kept the GUI the same and upgraded the kernel there'd be even more complaining that Ubuntu has gone stale while the others are putting it in the dust.

Imagine if Windows Vista had the same GUI as XP, who'd waste their money on an upgrade with no innovation?

Sorry, I don't find any substance in that rebuttal. It is the same "if you don't like Unity then you must not like change" strawman argument.

If you want to sell a project, you have to be able to tell people why it is better, and be able to address concrete usability issues that may come up. Repeatedly insisting that people have some moral duty to like change (as in being historically correct) is a very poor way to go about it.

Speaking for myself, I am not so much against what the new UI looks like, I really don't care as long it gives me the flexibility to change it. I think the default look of gnome 2 is crap, but since it is very modular I can add and remove pieces to make it look and behave in the way I want. But Unity doesn't have that flexibility (neither do Gnome Shell and KDE)

It is not the look of Unity that I don't like, but because it takes away my ability to configure the UI in the way I like. In other words, lost ability to customize.

I have no issue with the global menu. If you like it, fine, but I don't like the fact that I cannot remove it (not without some hacking). I don't mind the Unity dock, if that floats your boat, cool, but I would also like the option to move it, remove it or replace it with say awn or cairo-dock. If you like big icons on the dash, fine, but I would also like to have a list view because I have a lot of applications installed and I am not using a mobile device with only 10 applications.

[NightwishFan]

I am un-subscribing. Getting a little tired of I hate unity I hate gnome shell talks. Thanks for those that made the reasonable posts (either way for or against)

[HermanAB]

I liked Vista. Vista was the best thing that ever happened to Linux!

[disabledaccount]

I liked Vista. Vista was the best thing that ever happened to Linux!Yeah, Vista helped a lot - XP was aging, Vista HW support was very poor, peples at most couldn't find out where are their files and settings in new GUI, HW requirements were several times higher than for XP. For 2 years or so main topics on windows forums were: how to remove Vista and install XP (where to find drivers) and How to make my sound and gfx working :LOL:
That pushed thousants of peoples to at least try Linux...

[Canime]

Ubuntu. Vista and the upgrade cost too much money. I payed for both and well I didn't pay anything for Ubuntu. When I got it was far better than Vista, I enjoyed the freedom and basically feel that Vista is slightly older than Ubuntu's latest, therefore it doesn't have the same appeal to me. I have to say however, they ran Vista at an old work place of mine, the enterprise version was excellent as an office operating system, the whole thing looked very professional in that setting.

[Sven6210]

Ok,
Got 11.04 with Unity running properly on my thinkpad.

I used it for as long as I could (about 2 hours)..
Only to be made fully aware again of why I dislike Unity soo much. lol

I tried.

I also tried to log out (of the liveCD) user session, to switch to regular GNOME2, but could not find the option. :/

No way will I ever use Unity.
Guess that is in concrete now. lol

You have tried for two hours and gave up? I rather thought about giving it a try for two weeks in order to see whether I like it or not.

[Rasa1111]

You have tried for two hours and gave up? I rather thought about giving it a try for two weeks in order to see whether I like it or not.

Well Ive already tried it in the past,
and never cared for it.

But I figured i'd give it another try,
just to see...
before i kept up my dislike for it. lol

I could not use that for 2 weeks mate.
More power to ya!

[ikt]

Well Ive already tried it in the past,
and never cared for it.

But I figured i'd give it another try,
just to see...
before i kept up my dislike for it. lol

I could not use that for 2 weeks mate.
More power to ya!

What didn't you like about it?

[pinballwizard]

I quite liked Vista...

Me too... I just installed it on two laptops I'm selling today.