PDA

View Full Version : This makes me sad =( (regarding the Ubuntu Community):



slooksterpsv
March 2nd, 2011, 09:07 AM
I found this post... well on a website, not going to say where (unless a Mod asks) anyways here's what person xyz posted:



I went to ubuntu and have liked it BUT the user community for it is atrocious. Like anyone new to an OS I've ran into some hickups and what not. So I go to their forum and ask for assistance in their beginner section. All I get are people who treat me like scum. Call me troll and act like I'm stupid.

I'm a fairly laid back guy and I'll admit some of these mistake might have not been smart. But when I'm still learning stuff and reach out for help I'd hope people who are there to help beginners will be at least respectable.

So now I don't want to stay with Ubuntu. I want to go to a distro where the community is nicer and more helpful to newcomers.

Anyone have a recommendations?


I can feel for this person cause when people were rude and condescending to me, I left Ubuntu and tried other distros like Fedora and what not. This kind of feedback frustrates me cause it directly reflects Ubuntu in its entirety and shows the lack of concern and helpfulness some people have.

Please, try to be respectful to others, I really believe in Ubuntu and it pains me to read when someone has a bad experience because of the community.

Thank you

Primefalcon
March 2nd, 2011, 09:14 AM
Honestly I find that kind of a little hard to believe that the community as a whole were disrespectful.... in my own experiences the community was great.

Ubuntu was my first distro I ever tried. And if it was wasn't for the superb community here... I would not have stayed... Since I am..... adventurous in my explorations of how things work!

Though I have seen 1 or 2 rude people.... they were dealt with in a quick manner by the great mods and admins here!

Guillaumeb
March 2nd, 2011, 09:30 AM
I have to partially agree with what he said.

i like to change OS from time to time and move from Mac OS X to Ubuntu to Windows. Therefore I use Ubuntu intermittently since Dapper Drake.

In the past people would not hesitate to answers the few technical questions I had. Today I hardly dare asking anything as I know nobody will ever answer it.

That's OK though some people do make up for it and are great helpers. But then this has to be moderated . I, for example will not be able to help anybody's questions as i dont have the necessary knowledge when it comes to Linux. I feel kind of bad for as it should be bidirectional in some way to make it fair.

All I can say is that there might be some members that are tired to solve the same problems everyday and i understand them.

This won't make me leave Ubuntu anyway. i'm currently using the 10.10 version and i'm loving it so far.

Evil-Ernie
March 2nd, 2011, 09:34 AM
To be fair I think the community is good here compared to other distro's and OS's forums, however it only takes one bad experience and that is all out the window and I have winced before with what some people have said and how new users have been treated on the forums.

We have to remember as well that the type of people attracted to Ubuntu are laymen, that is to say they are not hackers but standard members of the public that have probably never used anything else but a Microsoft product. They may look blankly if you utter the word 'terminal' but shouldn't be treated with disdain but be helped as they have taken the step to put Ubuntu onto their PC which to some is a massive undertaking on their part.

mips
March 2nd, 2011, 09:47 AM
Today I hardly dare asking anything as I know nobody will ever answer it.

All I can say is that there might be some members that are tired to solve the same problems everyday and i understand them.


See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1693472 for some possible explanations.

Primefalcon
March 2nd, 2011, 09:57 AM
the type of people attracted to Ubuntu are laymen, that is to say they are not hackers but standard members of the public that have probably never used anything else but a Microsoft product. They may look blankly if you utter the word 'terminal' but shouldn't be treated with disdain but be helped as they have taken the step to put Ubuntu onto their PC which to some is a massive undertaking on their part.
I disagree strongly, I know a lot of very competent programmers use Ubuntu simply since they need the a no hassles system... the thing with Ubuntu though is... it is still just as configurable as any other Linux distro.. so the power users can still mod it to hell and back....

Hell I am a web programmer/designer and I script/markup myself in html, XML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP, BASH, Python, C++ amongst others.....

And I still use Ubuntu (currently 10.10) as my primary Desktop simply because I need a no hassles distro... Though I admit my WebServer is CentOS (Mostly due to the fact I haven't been bothered to change it...), though my home server is Ubuntu LTS releases.

slooksterpsv
March 2nd, 2011, 09:57 AM
To be fair I think the community is good here compared to other distro's and OS's forums, however it only takes one bad experience and that is all out the window and I have winced before with what some people have said and how new users have been treated on the forums.
...

True, I've went to OpenSuSE asked for help, didn't get any responses, actually I logged into my account a couple of days ago and still no responses to the thread I started.

I know I bring up these kinds of threads often, but again I mean I'm technically advanced and have had people treat me with disrespect to where I've stopped using an OS (granted I always come back, but still).

With Windows, I know my way around, don't have to ask questions or what not, I know how to fix what's broke.

Linux, if I don't know how to do something, I try to search, if I can't find information, I make a post. If I feel belittled, I take it offensively, which, does reflect on the Ubuntu OS, even if Ubuntu has nothing to do with the issue. Why? It's cause Ubuntu is represented strongly by the community.

It's us as a community that make the OS the best darn OS out there (of course besides it being Linux, and Canonical and the SABDFL, and Gnome, and Developers, and Artwork people, and Documentation people, and Packagers, etc. etc. etc. (sorry if I missed anyone)), but when people have problems they come here for answers. They need help and this is the official place to get it.

I've had people come in and just flame Ubuntu, I push back, but what happens? We start helping. I remember this one thread, someone just was bashing on everything that wasn't working, calling it worthless and a waste of time and effort. And a lot of us here were fighting back saying it's a community effort, and that it's a free option and they have the choice of their OS and just fighting on and on. Then guess what happens? We say, well what was the issue? Let's see if we can get it fixed. I always think of that thread and just remember, I pushed back so hard cause he was offending me and the OS, but in the end we came together and helped him work on the issues he was having.

It goes to show a true community spirit.

Fight, bicker, fight, bicker, fix, fix, fix. Haha!

temman
March 2nd, 2011, 10:18 AM
I also feel sad for the person in concern , the fact that the decision was made to make the switch it took some guts! This is a learning process for all of us lets face it and there is no need to upset or discourage anyone.
To the person in concern I can understand you are very hurt with whatever been said to you but I don't think you should leave us because of this, as a matter of fact try and stick it out and proof to whoever upset you that you can do it.
I have belonged to quite a few forums in my time and you will always come across situations like that. This is why we have moderators and administrators to deal with that kind of behaviour.

Blutkoete
March 2nd, 2011, 10:26 AM
The community is mostly (even a greater part than only "mostly") friendly here.

But from time to time I get the feeling that not only the askers should read more before posting, but as well the answerers; it's a recurring thing (today again) that someone asks for a virus scanner, stating in his question that he's downloading files for a Windows machine and wants to check the files before passing them on, and gets a "That's a Windows state of mind. You don't need a virus scanner with Linux!" reply. Just an example.

slooksterpsv
March 2nd, 2011, 10:43 AM
...

But from time to time I get the feeling that not only the askers should read more before posting, but as well the answerers; it's a recurring thing (today again) that someone asks for a virus scanner, stating in his question that he's downloading files for a Windows machine and wants to check the files before passing them on, and gets a "That's a Windows state of mind. You don't need a virus scanner with Linux!" reply. Just an example.

I understand that yes Posts take up space in the SQL database, yes. And yes I understand that questions have been answered possibly 1000s of times, but, people aren't sure how to search, what to search, or if it's been asked, so they ask.
I don't blame them. I do too, then it starts a belittling or flaming. I get mad, or embarrassed and leave. Also I get mad when I ask a question and someone links in a post from another thread, and it doesn't work. I want to know someone's not pushing me off to something that may or may not work. I want to know people are working with me to resolve the issue.

disabledaccount
March 2nd, 2011, 10:52 AM
I was a bit surprised when I've seen this:

So now I don't want to stay with Ubuntu. I want to go to a distro where the community is nicer and more helpful to newcomers.At first: who cares? do what you want man. OS is a tool for managing tools - nothing to like, nothing to love - much to learn.

slooksterpsv
March 2nd, 2011, 10:59 AM
I was a bit surprised when I've seen this:
At first: who cares? do what you want man. OS is a tool for managing tools - nothing to like, nothing to love - much to learn.

Who cares? Seriously? I do, I care. Windows let them down, so they're turning to Linux, don't let Linux let them down.

Gerontion
March 2nd, 2011, 11:00 AM
I was curious about this as it directly contradicts my experience so I had a look for the OP and found it at http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/c-t-tech-talk/i-need-a-better-linux-distro/t.69989709_1/

Interesting first line: "Like I said in my previous post I want to go to linux for my pornography needs."

Now, I'm not one to moralize and if you like porn then go right ahead - knock yourself out (as it were) - but you've only got one side of the story here and I think it's not unreasonable to have doubts about someone who picks an OS based on its suitability for watching porn films.

mcduck
March 2nd, 2011, 11:11 AM
I found this post... well on a website, not going to say where (unless a Mod asks) anyways here's what person xyz posted:



I can feel for this person cause when people were rude and condescending to me, I left Ubuntu and tried other distros like Fedora and what not. This kind of feedback frustrates me cause it directly reflects Ubuntu in its entirety and shows the lack of concern and helpfulness some people have.

Please, try to be respectful to others, I really believe in Ubuntu and it pains me to read when someone has a bad experience because of the community.

Thank you
Thats' interesting, considering the user "xyz" seems to have quite many threads here, with lots of polite and helpful answers to all his questions... ;)

Anyway, while I'm personally happy to help as much as I can on these forums, there are some things I expect the other people to do as well. First, they must be polite and a lest try to type their questions in as understandable English as they can, I'm not a native English speaker and tend to skip the threads where the question is in slang, full of typos, or in some other way formatted in a way that makes it hard for me to understand.

I also expect the person asking a question to be polite, and to understand that I'm helping him on my own time, without any pay, just to be nice. Being ungrateful, aggressive, or impolite in any way is a great way to make sure people don't feel like using their time to help you.

And of course I expect people to provide as good information about the backgrounds of the problem as they can, and provide any extra information as requested. it's pretty much impossible, and definitely very frustrating, to even try to help somebody asking "why the window button thing suddenly disappeared, I did nothing" or similar questions.

And in the end, if I suggest doing something that might solve the problem, or provide necessary information, I pretty much expect people to actually try it. Otherwise I'm just wasting my time, providing answers that nobody is actually listening to.

So the helpful attitude has to go both ways, if you ask nicely and give what info you can, you will most likely get a helpful and nice answer as well. Making demands, rants, threats to go to another distro or OS, or asking unclear questions without providing any info is not a great way to ask for volunteer help. In these or any other forums, or in real life.

Primefalcon
March 2nd, 2011, 11:20 AM
So the helpful attitude has to go both ways
That pretty much goes anywhere, I had a look at that link posted, and I see that when asked what his issues were to which his response was none of your business.... Nice

disabledaccount
March 2nd, 2011, 11:28 AM
Who cares? Seriously? I do, I care. Windows let them down, so they're turning to Linux, don't let Linux let them down.
This has nothing to do with ubuntu or windows - it's all about laziness.
Maybe not all - some peoples are just not able to use computers or just can't preciselly form their thoughts - that's not sad - there are many different ways to happily spend the life - they can play guitar f.e. :)

candtalan
March 2nd, 2011, 01:02 PM
I think the Ubuntu community, particularly the forums, are brilliant, it is a central reason why I chose to move to and stay with, Ubuntu.

I use the forums a lot, to give and get help.
Almost always the responses I get are faultlessly polite.

However on a couple of occasions in fairly recent past, I have had problems. On one occasion a response was sarcastic, which was a surprise to me and on reflection a bit upsetting in being unnecessary and unhelpful. It was not in the beginners area, so it is possible that the responder expected more skill than I showed, but I was asking about something in declared ignorance. Anyway, I handled it with dignity and it was not worth reporting, except to note here that even in more advanced areas, there are otherwise experienced people who may need to ask something and appear incompetent, and politeness is important.

On another, again, isolated occasion, and again in a forum here which was not for beginners, I posted about a problem which soon became a bug relating to significant data loss under a particular condition. One responder - there were not many - repeatedly insisted that it was my own lack of knowledge, that I was confused, and that effectively the problem did not exist. There was no impoliteness here, just an unhelpful and repeated denial of a defined (by me) problem. Again, as far as I could see, the code of conduct was not broken so as to be worth a complaint, but it was unbelievably frustrating for me to apparently not be taken seriously in what looked like an important issue, and it may have slowed down the bug getting more attention (as it did later), unfortunately after more people suffered serious data loss.

Brilliant community, and let's keep trying.

kellemes
March 2nd, 2011, 01:26 PM
Who cares? Seriously? I do, I care. Windows let them down, so they're turning to Linux, don't let Linux let them down.

If this is the case I think that's a pretty sad thing..
People starting to use Linux because they feel 'let down' by Windows.. ;-) Please..
I do believe it's the worst reason to start using an os.. an os is a tool and nothing else, you should choose the best tool for the job.
I don't feel any responsibility to get people to use Linux or keep using it. So when someone wants to leave Linux that's fine with me, I simply don't care. :)
But as long as they are using Linux (or any other os) and I can help them learn or fix some problems.. I'll be glad to help.

mikewhatever
March 2nd, 2011, 01:59 PM
I can certainly appreciate your concern, slooksterpsv, but really, don't you think you are way too sensitive? Ubuntu is not for everyone, and no matter how nice and cozy the forums are, people will come and go. Instead of trying to change the world, I think you might want to try changing the way you feel and view things.

kevdog
March 2nd, 2011, 02:48 PM
I hold my judgement until I see the thread the OP is referring too. Honestly far too much whining around here about people not receiving help. Although the forums is a great resource, it's not the only one available. I bet the OP didn't try on #ubuntu either.

Spr0k3t
March 2nd, 2011, 03:05 PM
I'd love to see the original post where this guy has decided to abandon the community based on responses to a yet unknown request. Was it something rhetorical that doesn't deserve an answer?

Who knows. One side of a story means little.

rg4w
March 2nd, 2011, 04:55 PM
Who knows. One side of a story means little.
Agreed. It would be most helpful to see the original thread in which this person had a bad experience.

Sure, I've seen some unnecessary OS bashing and other things not exactly in keeping with the Code of Conduct here, but by and large I've found this community enormously generous and helpful.

Then again, I try to be respectful in my own posts, and try to heed the advice given to me here. Some argue, and argumentative types tend to produce argumentative responses.

I don't know if the person in question was argumentative or not, and sadly we can't know because we don't know the original thread (did I miss that in an earlier post?).

FWIW, I've found that the experience in these forums is pretty much like any other social interaction: it tends to reflect the personality of the individual.

BrokenKingpin
March 2nd, 2011, 05:12 PM
xyz should try the Arch community.

dh04000
March 2nd, 2011, 05:32 PM
Actually, I've had a mixed bag here at Ubuntu forums. Most of the time people are very willing to help and are neutral or well mannered. But, then I get people are decide to attack you for no reason at all. More disturbingly, some of the mods are part of this group. They don't usually come out and say it either, they just delete your thread, no warning, nothing.

kellemes
March 2nd, 2011, 05:36 PM
Actually, I've had a mixed bag here at Ubuntu forums. Most of the time people are very willing to help and are neutral or well mannered. But, then I get people are decide to attack you for no reason at all. More disturbingly, some of the mods are part of this group. They don't usually come out and say it either, they just delete your thread, no warning, nothing.

Easy said, without any proof, or giving us a link to such an attack from mods(?).
I've been on this forum for many years and mods 'attacking' for no reason I'v never seen.
And if you feel you are being attacked for no reason you can discuss this in the Resolution Center (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123) for everyone to see..

mips
March 2nd, 2011, 05:49 PM
I hold my judgement until I see the thread the OP is referring too. Honestly far too much whining around here about people not receiving help.


+1

Here is the thread,
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/c-t-tech-talk/i-need-a-better-linux-distro/t.69989709_1/

Hello,

Like I said in my previous post I want to go to linux for my pornography needs. I went to ubuntu and have liked it BUT the user community for it is atrocious. Like anyone new to an OS I've ran into some hickups and what not. So I go to their forum and ask for assistance in their beginner section. All I get are people who treat me like scum. Call me troll and act like I'm stupid.

I'm a fairly laid back guy and I'll admit some of these mistake might have not been smart. But when I'm still learning stuff and reach out for help I'd hope people who are there to help beginners will be at least respectable.

So now I don't want to stay with Ubuntu. I want to go to a distro where the community is nicer and more helpful to newcomers.

Anyone have a recommendations?

castrojo
March 2nd, 2011, 06:15 PM
Does anyone have links to threads where people are misbehaving?

rg4w
March 2nd, 2011, 06:51 PM
Here is the thread,
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/c-t-tech-talk/i-need-a-better-linux-distro/t.69989709_1/
Well that does rather change things.

Given that it appears the OP misrepresented the post in question and that the answers in that thread were generally helpful but still failed to satisfy the dude, if I were a mod this thread would be closed.

NightwishFan
March 2nd, 2011, 07:05 PM
The only thing I am not proud of is the constant hate and conspiracy theories about Ubuntu that go around. A bad decision on their part is a bad decision, however I do not know what spreading hate about it will do. From my experiences, it is very easy to get in touch with developers and get your opinions heard, on IRC, mailing lists etc.

As far as getting help (on here specifically). I see posts that have replies within the first minute of someone posting the question. Generally when I post a help reply to someone there are 4 other posts along with it when I am finished. I have never had trouble getting help. I think it is very friendly to beginners. I have even seen people try to help folks that come here merely to say "ubuntu is crap". (I am not that generous. If someone wants help, they wont get it with insults and threats). :D

Ctrl-Alt-F1
March 2nd, 2011, 07:16 PM
Read the original thread. Sounds to me like the guy just likes to be disagreeable.

@ Nightwish: agreed. The reason I came back to Ubuntu (despite it not working well with my system at the time), was in large part because the _____ (choose a distro) community wasn't as good.

ticopelp
March 2nd, 2011, 08:03 PM
Whenever I had an Ubuntu question, the community here was always helpful and friendly. But then, I never criticized Ubuntu in the same post that I asked for help, or just flat criticized. That's what tends to set people off, in my experience, and they're sometimes not as polite as they could be.

mick_86
March 2nd, 2011, 08:16 PM
ive been using ubuntu for a few weeks now and its my first experience with linux, if it wasn't for the helpful community here i would be lost. maybe some people who are unsatisfied with there free software and free forum where you can get free advice just expect too much maybe? instant answers for all their problems?

the community here is one of the reasons that i'm willing to stick with ubuntu.

thanks to everyone who has helped me so far.

inkrypted
March 2nd, 2011, 08:50 PM
The community for any OS is a mixed bag I have had just as many bad experiences on Windows forums as I have Linux Forums. What I think is the real tragedy here is that this person did not seem to give the community much of a chance and made a hasty decision.

Kirboosy
March 2nd, 2011, 08:53 PM
I've seen more praises about the Ubuntu Community rather than complaints. I think it all depends on the tone the OP comes across with.

If they are insulting and hard headed, people ten to get upset with them. Thats when things can go wrong...

_outlawed_
March 2nd, 2011, 09:23 PM
I really have no idea what that guy was going on about. In the time I was using Ubuntu I have NEVER seen any member of the community treating new people like scum in the support forums.

dh04000
March 2nd, 2011, 09:38 PM
Though, if you want to see people get treated REAL bad, ask a question on the PC BSD forums. I was told that Ubuntu has addled my brain because I didn't know what an obscure output, which I was asking for help on, meant.

I deleted my account there, too abusive. Still don't got pc bsd 8.2 install properly. I'd love some help on that if anyone knows pc bsd.

boydrice
March 3rd, 2011, 04:07 AM
Though, if you want to see people get treated REAL bad, ask a question on the PC BSD forums. I was told that Ubuntu has addled my brain because I didn't know what an obscure output, which I was asking for help on, meant.

I deleted my account there, too abusive. Still don't got pc bsd 8.2 install properly. I'd love some help on that if anyone knows pc bsd.

I saw the post you are referring too, I think the comment was made more in frustration of Ubuntu users in general rather than a directed attack at yourself.

On the plus side the information that was provided to you was helpful. Basically he was asking you to confirm through some commands that your USB stick was indeed mounted at sdb1which is where your dd command was pointed to and in turn telling you it could not find the device. Also please keep in mind that in the *nix world the dd command is not obscure.

I don't use PC-BSD, but I do use OpenBSD and FreeBSD granted not in a dual boot scenario. If you ever want to try one of those I would be glad to assist.

Dustin2128
March 3rd, 2011, 04:35 AM
I haven't really used the forums for real help for a few years, but the community was pretty nice back then. Since due to some strange universal law, I inevitably discover the solutions to my problems on my own 5 minutes after posting, I can't attest to its current state.

pi3.1415926535...
March 3rd, 2011, 05:09 AM
The thing to remember about the Ubuntu forums is that Ubuntu is marketed as more of a beginners Linux distro, though is not exclusively that. In addition to the points I have see about people not putting effort into finding the answer to their question before posting, I believe that posting prominently on the homepage a thread about how to find the answer before posting, then proper posting etiquette would be very helpful, at least for me.

SEisch
March 3rd, 2011, 05:26 AM
It's too bad this person got so angry with this forum. I think a lot of people would like to see his original thread that caused the bad experience. I can say I've had the opposite experience. Everyone I've interacted with so far has been very nice to me.
When posting in a section that gets a lot of new threads everyday, I can see how someone could feel ignored though. A thread can go from being near the top, to page three in no time. And it might not get many views or suggestions. Sometimes you got to keep trying. People will help you when they can. It's not like someone is sitting there all day, just waiting for your question. :)

sammiev
March 3rd, 2011, 05:34 AM
I myself found members and staff here very helpful. I try to research the info the best I can before asking a question. I have been a s/mod for many years at a few sites ( not Linux related ) and know if the questions has been answered 1000 times, it will likely not be answered. GL :)

dionysius
March 3rd, 2011, 05:48 AM
I've not come across any nasty posts here at all, rather the opposite. For example someone who's been asking a lot of questions about security etc. (with attitude at that), and when you go through his/her previous posts you can only come to the conclusion this person is up to no good, and yet his questions keep getting answers.

And there are many threads by people who appear to think others get paid to provide them with the answers on a silver salver. Yet these too get their answers eventually.

I'd heartily recommend the Back|Track forums to the person with pornography needs; he'd be crawling back to Ubuntu Forums in seconds.