an observation about the viability of Ubuntu

[wpshooter]

After taking a look at several versions/distributions of Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically, I have come to the conclusion that these O/S definately have a good bit of potential.

However, IMO, where they fall short of Microsoft/windows and other operating systems is in the available MAJOR applications that can be run natively on them. Please do not advise me to try WINE, etc. I have tried them and they do NOT work with major software applications.

It is great that so many people are spending their time on the development of this O/S. But are any efforts being made by these same developers to get major software application companys to write their software for this O/S ???

For instance when I just called 3 of the software applications that we use here at work, CCH Prosystem tax, Peachtree Accounting, & Intuit/Quickbooks regarding if they had applications that would run on a Linux O/S, either the answer was NO or they did not know. And no, I was not talking to the development department, but if and when this happens, it will not take it that long to filter down to the front line people.

If they want to get this Ubuntu O/S to ever be on par with Microsoft windows, they need to have the potential users of this O/S to lobby all of the MAJOR application developers to write their software for Ubuntu. Otherwise, this is going to wind up being a great O/S with no place to go.

Therefore, if you read this, please take the time to either e-mail or phone several of the major application software vendors that you use either at work or at home and request that they make their software available for Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular and then tell all of your computer friends to do the same.

Thanks.

[ComplexNumber]

However, IMO, where they fall short of Microsoft/windows and other operating systems is in the available MAJOR applications that can be run natively on them. Please do not advise me to try WINE, etc. I have tried them and they do NOT work with major software applications.
i think most people would agree, but thats no fault of ubuntu or linux. but thats the only advantage of using windows. sometime, one has to get their priorities straight. you can either use the so called major applications on a subpar operating system. or you could have free applications that do the job as well or almost as well but on an OS that doesn't have all the many downsides of windows. i'm happy with my choice.

[wpshooter]

i think most people would agree, but thats no fault of ubuntu or linux. but thats the only advantage of using windows. sometime, one has to get their priorities straight. you can either use the so called major applications on a subpar operating system. or you could have free applications that do the job as well or almost as well but on an OS that doesn't have all the many downsides of windows. i'm happy with my choice.


This is NOT strictly a matter of priorities.

If I am in the accounting business (the same can apply to many, many other business types and other areas of computing endeavor), the software applications that I use (to a very great degree) are dependent on what software is being used by my clients and the computing public in general. No man is an island, especially when it comes to computer usage.

I can not just go out one day and tell my clients that I have decided to switch all of my systems and applications to Linux and will you as my client please switch to the same or I can not continue to provide you with accounting services. What do you think they would tell me ?? In many instances, it would be something that I would not want to repeat here.

If you think that Linux is ever going to be utilized as an O/S by the general public without first having the currently used major application programs being offered for use on a Linux system, you are deluding yourself.

Please take the time and effort to either e-mail or phone several of the major software applications that you use at work or at home and request that they consider offering their applications in a Linux compatible version in general and specifically in a Ubuntu compatible version and then ask all of your computer friends to do the same.

Thanks, again.

[NeghVar]

This thread should probably be in the Cafe but anyways.

I would say you are right and wrong at the same time. Yes there is alot of proprietary software that would be great if it ran on Linux, but at the same time depending on your needs there are also great projects that are built with the ability to interact with that proprietary software, a perfect example of this is OpenOffice.

These alternatives are not perfect however they suit enough needs to work. It would be great if Adobe put out Photoshop CS2 to work natively on Linux, the only way it will happen is if they see profit. They already knoiw that people want it but there is a difference between what people want and what people are willing to buy.

If I'm an Exec at adobe and I get a bunch of emails, letters, phone calls and such I would realistically look at the situation and say how much will it cost to make CS2 compatible natiuvely with the 1000s of distros out there compared to how much people are willing to spend for it and then what is my total profit available.

If they don't see serious numbers there it won't matter. They knoiw that half the people writing just want another program that will run and won't actually buy the software. Thats the problem with these random campaigns you want. If they do bend and give in and spend money on creating it and no one buys it then they won't do anything in the future, they will just assume its a waste of money.

I prefer a policy of telling the companies what I want with email and such as well as refusing outright to buy any piece of Hardware or Software that won't run in Linux like it does in Windows.

[ComplexNumber]

wpshooter
if you're using it for business, thats a different matter. like i said, its not the fault of ubuntu or linux. for personal use, one has to get their priorities straight.

[helpme]

However, IMO, where they fall short of Microsoft/windows and other operating systems is in the available MAJOR applications that can be run natively on them. Please do not advise me to try WINE, etc. I have tried them and they do NOT work with major software applications.

I think everybody would agree here. This is of course one of the major problems for a larger adoption of Linux, especially on the desktop.
However, I don't think you should be to dismissive of wine. Wine is imho not intended to be an alternative to having native applications for Linux, however, in many cases it can offer people who rely on for example just one program that isn't available for Linux, but runs in wine (or cross over office) a way to run Linux.


It is great that so many people are spending their time on the development of this O/S. But are any efforts being made by these same developers to get major software application companys to write their software for this O/S ???
Yes there are.
For example, the OSDL has been talking to vendors, trying to find out if there are technical reasons preventing them from offering software for Linux. One result of these efforts are projects like project portland, that try to address these problems.
Also Novell just recently tried to find out what software people miss on Linux and they definately try to convince companies to also offer their software on Linux.

[aysiu]

Any business that's serious about considering Linux would not use Wine. They would shell out the US$5200 for the bulk 100-user licenses to get Crossover Office to run Windows applications they need.

Complaining that Linux developers need more commercial software companies to port to Linux is like a student complaining to a teacher that the government needs to send more funding to the school. The teacher has just about as much influence on the government as that student does.

Sure, Ubuntu developers can go to Adobe and say, "Please release a port of the Creative Suite 2 for Ubuntu," but why would they have any more pull than you would? In fact, you could argue that you, as a potential consumer, would have more pull than Ubuntu developers, as you would be telling Adobe there's an actual demand for a Ubuntu port of CS2.

Companies generally care about only one or two things, and one of those is profit. If a million Linux users said they'd definitely buy a Ubuntu port of Adobe CS2, Adobe would probably consider it. If ten Ubuntu developers say that Ubuntu users might use a port, Adobe would just laugh.

You have more power over third-party commercial software companies than Ubuntu developers do.

That said, in the long run, it's probably best to continue the development of open source alternatives than to get vendor lock-in on a different platform.

Why would I want to escape Windows only to have a "free" Ubuntu that's bogged down by Adobe, Macromedia, Nero, and a whole bunch of other commercial (not only closed source but also expensive) applications? K3B is better than Nero. AmaroK has some features that are more appealing than iTunes (global keyboard shortcuts have won me over, even though I still love other things about iTunes). Firefox is available on all three major platforms, as is Thunderbird, as is OpenOffice, as is Scribus.

My wife needs Adobe CS2 for her professional work, but if you do graphic design or illustration work as a hobby, you'd probably be better off donating your $1000 to GIMP or Inkscape than buying CS2 and trying to run it through Wine.

You don't have to agree with me on this, but I just want to throw that idea out there.

Seriously, though, even if you think Ubuntu needs great adoption in the desktop arena, it doesn't have to be adopted by everyone in order for it to grow. As it is now, if everyone who used their computers for web, email, word processing, listening to music, and organizing photos used Ubuntu at home, and if every school (except maybe the accounting department) in the world used Edubuntu... that's a huge userbase right there. Huge.

[K.Mandla]

If you do graphic design or illustration work as a hobby, you'd probably be better off donating your $1000 to GIMP or Inkscape than buying CS2 and trying to run it through Wine.
Excellent point.

[helpme]

Complaining that Linux developers need more commercial software companies to port to Linux is like a student complaining to a teacher that the government needs to send more funding to the school. The teacher has just about as much influence on the government as that student does.

I don't really think he is complaining. At least to me, it seemed more like an observation, not an complaint.

[halfvolle melk]

In fact, you could argue that you, as a potential consumer, would have more pull than Ubuntu developers, as you would be telling Adobe there's an actual demand for a Ubuntu port of CS2.

Companies generally care about only one or two things, and one of those is profit. If a million Linux users said they'd definitely buy a Ubuntu port of Adobe CS2, Adobe would probably consider it.
I think that was sort of his point:


Therefore, if you read this, please take the time to either e-mail or phone several of the major application software vendors that you use either at work or at home and request that they make their software available for Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular and then tell all of your computer friends to do the same.
Anyway, that's how I read it.

[aysiu]

I'm an idiot. Sorry, everyone.

[wpshooter]

I think that was sort of his point:

Anyway, that's how I read it.

Thank you, Melk. I am glad at least someone understood what I was saying. I can't understand on these forums why many readers have such a hard time understanding the point that has been written and instead go off on some tangent which sometimes is not even closely related to the original post.

If you don't want to spend the time and effort to request applications be written for Linux then continue to use what you have. But for those of us that want this O/S to really live up to its potential, how about helping the market place along by expressing your interest to the software vendors.

Thanks yet again.

[dmacdonald111]

This is definately something I agree with. If major software companies started releasing software for linux, it would bring linux into the forefront. However, would these companies actually want to write open source software? I just don't fully understand what's in it for them.

As for contacting major companies is a great idea. Maybe a 'group' where people can go and sign a kind of petition which this 'group' can then get in contact with the major companies so they can see that there is a definate interest in their company and product.

[aysiu]

This is definately something I agree with. If major software companies started releasing software for linux, it would bring linux into the forefront. However, would these companies actually want to write open source software? I just don't fully understand what's in it for them. Software doesn't have to be open source in order to be written for Linux. Opera and Skype are both closed source and both have Linux ports.

[aysiu]

I can't understand on these forums why many readers have such a hard time understanding the point that has been written and instead go off on some tangent which sometimes is not even closely related to the original post. Apologies, wpshooter. I'm an idiot who didn't read your last paragraph and went off on some crazy tangent because I'm crazy and have kneejerk reactions sometimes.

[halfvolle melk]

I can't understand on these forums why many readers have such a hard time understanding the point that has been written and instead go off on some tangent.
You're quite welkom, wpshooter. But please understand that posts like these come in great volumes. In defence of Aysiu, is swift to respond to any user concerns over and over again, just misread your point and seems to agree with you.

While you have valid points, in my opinion the adoption of native 'professional' software should be done by businesses.

[wpshooter]

As for contacting major companies is a great idea. Maybe a 'group' where people can go and sign a kind of petition which this 'group' can then get in contact with the major companies so they can see that there is a definate interest in their company and product.

This is exactly what I have proposed to Ubuntu developers that they do, i.e. make a spot on their forum or website where users could first submit suggestions for software applications that they would like to see made available for Ubuntu and then later on make a spot where users could link to those companies marketing departments via e-mail and make a request for a Ubuntu version of their application.

I hope the Ubuntu developers take this suggestion seriously. I think it can greatly aid the viability of this O/S.

Thanks.

[vayu]

However, IMO, where they fall short of Microsoft/windows and other operating systems is in the available MAJOR applications that can be run natively on them.

I wouldn't really want to see the big closed source applications on Linux.

[htinn]

You can preach all you like about how developers should port this or that to Linux, but the simple fact is that developers tend to be extremely overworked, underrated, underpaid, unappreciated people. Unless the developers run the company, there is almost no chance of their software being ported.

[blueturtl]

What about the laws of demand? AFAIK systems get written software for when they are popular and have a large userbase. A large userbase creates demand and a void in marketplace just waiting to filled by someone. If the old dogs like Adobe, IBM, and others don't understand to jump in, someone else will! The number of people switching from Windows is growing day by day and these people aren't just dual-booters anymore. I figure just by taking my business to those who do support Linux the message will slowly be heard and I suspect there are many who feel the same way.

There are a few problems with this though:

1) Firstly I suspect the image of a typical linux user to the company heads is someone who'd much rather download some free hack to do what he wants instead of buying the software. Their reluctance to port applications can be somewhat explained by the large amount of pirating that happens on the Windows platform.

2) It's hard to be an idealist if you really need something that you can't yet have with Linux.

3) Thirdly, there are a lot of emulation and simulation projects such as Cedega and WINE that are essentially doing the work the product makers should be doing. Of course this isn't all bad, because having a lot of people use such products can help create the image that there really is a major demand for native applications!

For the original poster: Just like you said, while you won't be able to make the switch because your needs are too spesific, the best we all can do for the Ubuntu community and Linux in general is to make it clear to our distributors or our technical staff that we would be interested in a Linux solution. Dangle a bit of money in front of these companies since that's what they want. This is for everyone who is in a position to do something:

Vote for Linux with your wallet!

If you are a consumer, ask for products that are supported also on Linux. Don't buy products that don't. I'm sure you all can work out different ways to do the same thing.

[endersshadow]

Intuit scoffs at the notion of a native port of Quickbooks to Linux...developed by them...

Of course, Intuit's model with Quickbooks is to let other people develop it and then buy those companies up. Hint, hint.

[Bloch]

All of these remarks are heavily from the industrialised world perspective.
Linux already has a solid userbase in BRICK countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, Korea) as well as The Phillipines.

The pressure for linux-compatible consumer products will come from these countries. In the industrialised world linux has connations of freedom of choice, anti-monopolism, and hobby hacking.

In other countries Linux is thought of as a cheap alternative, an international (non-American) operating system. The anti-Americanism that is commonplace in a lot of countries is likely to be aboost to Linux. The recent decision of Munich City Council to move to a Novell-supported linux has its political reasons.
Far from my intentions to divert this discussion to politics, but just to point out that the future of linux is not as dependant on attitudes in the industrialised world as it used to be.

[BoyOfDestiny]

Well it's been here over and over again. WIndows software is windows software. You have WINE, you have virtual machines, you have clones.

If you want a company to port their software (telling the Ubuntu devs won't help much), you must let the company know you are interested in a Linux version. It's as simple as that. The whole community doesn't need to be behind this, since there are many that do not want/need that.

This is a downside to closed source + proprietary. You are at their mercy. They may take more interest as Linux gains more marketshare on the desktop.

Anyway, ranting aside, Novell has an initiative you'd be interested in:

Need an App to run on Linux? Request it here!
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/16646.html

[zubrug]

All of these remarks are heavily from the industrialised world perspective.
Linux already has a solid userbase in BRICK countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, Korea) as well as The Phillipines.

The pressure for linux-compatible consumer products will come from these countries. In the industrialised world linux has connations of freedom of choice, anti-monopolism, and hobby hacking.

In other countries Linux is thought of as a cheap alternative, an international (non-American) operating system. The anti-Americanism that is commonplace in a lot of countries is likely to be aboost to Linux. The recent decision of Munich City Council to move to a Novell-supported linux has its political reasons.
Far from my intentions to divert this discussion to politics, but just to point out that the future of linux is not as dependant on attitudes in the industrialised world as it used to be.

I have to agree with this theory as this happening in every industry as we write, the american brand and its patent system is borked IMO.

[eriqk]

I wouldn't really want to see the big closed source applications on Linux.

Too late (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6904601), they're already here (http://www.oracle.com/technologies/linux/index.html).

Groet, Erik