If you have, why have you stopped helping in the support forums?

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I can't change the poll; however, I would be interesting in your opinions.

More that one answer can be selected.

[kerry_s]

i stopped helping a lot cause the mods are getting to harsh, after a few infractions for simply helping, you start to treat everything like egg shells, watch where you step, what you say. it just becomes not worth helping, i haven't stopped, but i have cut back & post i do make i keep short.

there are polite rules of society that are just no longer used here.
example:
it is common to tell someone they did something wrong the first time, as in a warning. not here though, you'll just get the infraction.

i posted a win98 key for someone that asked, i figured what the heck it's an old os, no longer supported by ms, back then you could install on as many machines as you wanted. no warning, just penalty.

the next was Endorsing the use of illegal or pirated software, no warning, just penalty.

i'm a nice guy if you tell me it's wrong, i try not to do it again.


the forum doesn't care about people or are feelings, theres enough people here, they assume we're replaceable, so now theres just newbies helping newbies, for the most part, i just read & see what happens, it don't matter that i might know the fix, i just don't care anymore.

[patchwork]

I've learned enough by now to know that I don't know near as much as I thought I did. Too often I found myself giving poor advice.

[TriBlox6432]

Even though I've been using Ubuntu for 2 years, I feel like a complete noob and I don't want to "help" someone, yet accidentally screw up their system. Also, I don't even understand most of the questions.

Perhaps when I'm more knowledgeable.

[LowSky]

I still help out where I can. Mostly in the medibuntu portion of the forum lately.

I know my knowlege can help the beginners too, but I'm reluctant to enter those portions of the forum anymore I feel like I'm tech support level 3 to put it bluntly. My knowlege has become kinda narrowed as my own needs became apparent and I dont worry about broader issues.

[lisati]

I try to help where I can.

A lot of the time, the questions that catch my eye relate to something I have little or no experience in fixing, so my trying to help would be a waste of everyone's time. Having said that, I sometimes get lucky, and remember something I've seen in the forum (or elsewhere) that might help with the solution or provide a little bit of light relief.

I tip my hat to the Ubuntu users here whose knowledge and skill provide a more useful answer than that which I would provide.

[Khakilang]

I don't I have enough knowledge to help. But I know about hardware so I did try sometime but I would hate myself if I screw up other people system.

[GabrielYYZ]

most of the time it's because the usual support thread is "please help me with [insert random GTK app]", i'm using Kubuntu now and i try hard to keep GTK out of here, so i don't have much to say.

the other big ones are "please help me with wireless" or "my laptop did [X]" and i have wired && desktop.

some other times i just don't know but, when i do know, i try to give an educated opinion and explain my "solution" might not be the best and to wait for a 2nd opinion. heck, even with doctors (that studied their stuff for a good set of years) you're well advise to seek a 2nd opinion, so yeah...

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

i stopped helping a lot cause the mods...

That is one reason I didn't think of.

[Hur Dur]

I think the best way to learn is to do it yourself. If you can't get past GRUB, then don't use Linux. Now, if it's a general question about Linux, I don't mind answering it. But, if it's a question that does not deserve an answer, such as "how do I install .deb files?" I will not answer it, simply because I do not believe that I should spend time answering their question when they can't spend the time to do a quick Google search.

[cloyd]

I like to help when I can. However, I am more of a user than technician. Every now and then though, I see where someone is having a problem I have dealt with. I appreciated all the help I've received. To to small extent I can, I'd like to help someone else.

[DougieFresh4U]

I am really tired of seeing threads 'please help' or 'I screwed :D:Dup'. No clue as to what might be an issue for them in their title

[tjwoosta]

I help when I know the answer and its fairly quick and easy to explain.

If its not easy to explain I try to point them in the right direction at least.

If they still dont catch on and they expect me to do the work for them I just get fed up and stop posting.

Also sometimes people ask really easy questions that I know someone else will come along and answer, so I move on to something else a bit less well known.

[handy]

I still help a tiny bit. But really after 25 years of it, I'm just over all the technical stuff these days.

Usually I just get into it when I have to. I've been keeping an eye on the Security forum lately, & I always watch the Wine & Gaming forum. I also have a mega thread on the AMD/ATi open-source situation in the Cafe, which has been pretty quiet lately as that driver stack is working so smoothly for most users these days & is in the process of starting to be polished up.

We'll start seeing progressively faster 3D response now that most of the other jobs that had higher priority are just about done.

Anyway, you asked. :)

[tgalati4]

I'm running Jaunty on my Thinkpad, so any questions on Karmic, or Lucid, or later versions I have to let slide because I'm not running them. I don't generally answer posts that I don't have direct hardware and software experience for.

I typically wait 6 months to a year after a release before I upgrade, so many of the early bugs are fixed with upgrades/patches. If others waited, then there wouldn't be as many support requests.

Googling to find answers to Ubuntu problems is generally successful, but some new users are so lost that they don't know where to start looking. And it is reflected in the lack of detail in the initial support request. I find many of my replies start with gathering more information to better troubleshoot. And I often answer with command line responses because they work under both KDE and gnome and it's difficult to walk someone through a menu when you don't know what desktop environment they are running. Many are put off by command line responses, but it's similar to checking the oil in your car. You need to lift the hood and pull the dipstick out and look at. For someone not used to lifting the hood of a car, the command line can be intimidating.

[desnaike]

I'm reluctant to help because new users want a quick fix, a little research and many of the problems can be solved. If we really looked at it Microsoft nor Apple provide the kind of help or resources that the Ubuntu forums provide but yet our new users expect more for free than whats provided for a price.

[Dustin2128]

various reasons. Main ones being pbkac, mods, the outdated solutions criticisms, and the fact that I use slackware. Using slack has made me far more competent with bash and linux, but my ubuntu knowledge has withered. I get heavily criticised for posting simple (IMO) command line options for fixing problems- and I've figured out that a vast number of bugs are because of ubuntu's attempt at user friendliness. You'll have some problems when you have a config file generated by a script generated by another script generated by a GUI program, and I'm just not willing to help people who can't be bothered to use google.

[BigCityCat]

I'm not qualified. I go in there once in a while and see if there is something easy that I can do or something I have had experience with.

[ki4jgt]

I just regained access to UF.org but I help when ever I can.

[danbuter]

I help on stuff I know, but that's often limited to things I've had problems with myself. After fixing a problem on my own PC, I keep the solution in a file.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

The thing that has been the most irritating for me lately are posts where:

1) The OP posts their problem.
2) People respond to the OP's post.
3) The OP doesn't reply to the responses with information about whether the suggestions working or not.
4) The OP doesn't provide any additional information when the response doesn't work.
5) The OP then complains that they are not getting help.

[Shpongle]

Simply put , I don't have the time due to college. I would still help if I could though .

[cartisdm]

Interesting poll. I am returning for some good ol' fashioned ubuntuforum time wasting after a long break. Now I'm curious to see what I've been missing. Was there a recent mod overhaul or has the forums migrated away from what it was?


Simply put , I don't have the time due to college. I would still help if I could though .

Funny you should say this. In college was where I used to help out and spent tons of time on the forums. Now that I have a full-time job (and live-in fiancee) I am almost never here.

From what I remember, UbuntuForums was THE best place out there - computer related or not. I recently joined a styleforum in order to help better dress myself for the work environment and those people are MEAN. Every time someone ticks me off I think back to the good ol' days of this forum being so friendly to noods :confused:

[_outlawed_]

i posted a win98 key for someone that asked, i figured what the heck it's an old os, no longer supported by ms, back then you could install on as many machines as you wanted. no warning, just penalty.

The mods did the right thing in giving you an infraction. Doesn't matter if it's an old OS or not, giving out serials to people is still piracy.


As for the OP's question, most of the time something gets answered before I can even get into it. xD

[Dustin2128]

hey, look, that oh so classic ubuntu forums heavy censorship is back! Whoo, down with unpopular opinions!

[overdrank]

If you have issue with staff action please post in the Resolution Center (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123). Back on topic :)

[del_diablo]

I will blame that the culture has changed.
I startec coming here fall 2009, and even back then it bothered me that people did not even attempt to read the error message they got. I am have not seen the support forum for.... 4-5 months?... but before that point the amount of noobishness was starting to get out of hand.
The other problem is: The support forum is suppose to be for finding obscure PPA's, for non-obvious trouble, and the alike.
I think in 8 of 10 cases the forums failed to help me, mainly because my problems was not "standard", and I think the real problem is that the forums is not segreated into "standard problems" and "random stuff keeps on happening!".
I used to help on the IRC too, but I dislike how it has changed. It is starting to get impossible to get proper help if your problem are non-trivial.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

hey, look, that oh so classic ubuntu forums heavy censorship is back! Whoo, down with unpopular opinions!

It appears that the censorship is not that bad. This thread is still not locked despite may expectations that it wouldn't survive very long. I knew when I started it that it could result in controversy.

[earthpigg]

I never helped because I'm a philanthropist with my time. I did so because I found it interesting and educational. Self interest led me to help others, nothing more.

Picture a quadrant 1 graph from your algebra days, with a line starting at the orgin and becoming progressively steeper and approaching vertical as it moves along the X axis.

Y is time required to solve progressively more difficult problems.
X is the amount learned.

As I learned more, I found that I had to look for more and more challenging problems to solve in order to keep myself interested. My boredom and aversion to solving problems similar/identical to ones I'd already addressed before forced me forward until eventually I was spending an hour researching prior to learning a small tidbit of new knowledge and making a single post.

I think economists call it the "Law of Increasing Opportunity Costs" or the "Law of Diminishing Returns" or something.

When I first started, helping someone with a problem I felt was interesting and potentially educational for me had the opportunity cost of 5 or 10 minutes that could otherwise have been spent enjoying a book or a movie.

Towards the end of my time, helping someone with a problem I felt was interesting and potentially educational for me had the opportunity cost of an hour or more.

Helping used to mean 5 or 10 minutes invested in exchange for a small tidbit of new knowledge. A very nice exchange - someone gets help, I learn a bit.

Now it means an hour or more for that same sized tidbit of new knowledge.

[lisati]

I sometimes cringe when I see support requests asking "What do I do?" and the error message has told them something like "Please run sudo dpkg --configure -a manually", something that has been covered several times before in the forum. At least the error message says to use sudo these days.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I sometimes cringe when I see support requests asking "What do I do?" and the error message has told them something like "Please run sudo dpkg --configure -a manually", something that has been covered several times before in the forum. At least the error message says to use sudo these days.

So true, so true! :)

I am learning not to respond to those request for help. If they can't read the solution that is already provided in the error message then I am probably going to waste hours of my time trying to help them.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

The poll results are interesting thus far. The predominate results suggest that people a reluctant to help because of their lack of confidence in their ability to do so. It doesn't seem like they are that dissatisfied with the people seeking help.

Please keep voting in the poll.

[del_diablo]

It would not surprise me if changing the last one would dramatically increase its votes.
Change it to something like: "Users not even reading the error messages!" :P

[stmiller]

A lot of the help given out is how to search google or the forum to find where 3,000 other persons have already asked the same question. :)

I think ubuntuforums.org has way too many sections. It should be simplified to no more than 7-8 categories max.

This adds to the frustration of a user trying to get help on topic X.

[Timmer1240]

I think the best way to learn is to do it yourself. If you can't get past GRUB, then don't use Linux. Now, if it's a general question about Linux, I don't mind answering it. But, if it's a question that does not deserve an answer, such as "how do I install .deb files?" I will not answer it, simply because I do not believe that I should spend time answering their question when they can't spend the time to do a quick Google search.

I agree 100 percent google is my friend!It was for windows also!

[inhiway]

An interesting thread Old_Gray_Wolf. Thanks. I don't help out in the support forums because I don't feel qualified. I've been using Linux for several years, but not as my primary OS. I currently have Linux Mint 10 KDE/Windows 7 installed. As I boot more often into my Linux partition, a time may come when I will feel confident enough to help a few people with simple problems. Until then, I read, read and read more here and at other Linux forums so that I can learn how this thing ticks. Thanks again for this thread and everyone's comments.

[mips]

People are rude. Being anything but polite to them will earn you an infraction.
There seems to be a sense of entitlement where people just expect things.
Very few people give enough background info, just "My internet does not work".
Very few people provide feedback on suggestions to them as to what worked which would potentially help others.
Nobody helping out asks for recognition or thanks but those on the receiving end seldom seem to do the polite/mannered thing and thank people for their help.
There are also people here giving advice while they themselves don't know what the hell is going on. The blind leading the blind. These forums are full 'noise'. As far as support goes there are lesser used distros with way better documentation & forums.
Tired of the zealots, some people consider Ubuntu to be the be all and end all of linux when it's not. It's like a childish schoolground thing.

Overall I'm just tired of rude impolite people with a sense of entitlement!
That and the feel good kid glove approach of the forums, it's gone to far.

[donkyhotay]

Not listed in the poll but I don't provide much help because most of the problems that I know the answer to are easy enough that other people usually beat me to it. Usually when I post "solutions" it's more of a request for further information and an explanation on how to get the information needed (like getting error messages in CLI). By the time I check back there is either enough info to give a solution (at which point someone else posts the answer) or there isn't at which point I ignore it because there isn't enough info to provide a solution.

[coffee412]

Lets see, How does it go? " I will open the door for you but you have to walk up the steps".

It seems to me that a lot of people coming to Ubuntu are coming from the windows side of things. They don't really know how to research a problem and get frustrated easily. After their frustration they quit and probably go back to windows. If it doesn't work the first time out of the box they absolutely quit and look for an easier way - back to windows.

Google your problem. If your having a problem then most likely someone else has experienced it too.

As I get older I find that alot of people (probably echoing others here) like to be spoon fed and cuddled. They dont have the inclination to actually think for themselves. Their problem solving skills are non existent or poorly developed. One thing that linux will do is teach you how to research a problem and fix it. Makes me sick to see posts like:
1. I downloaded a file and cannot find it.
2. My wireless doesn't work can you fix it for me?
3. What is an error log? Never mind, I give up.

My top peeve is spending time answering someone's question and they never respond back or never provide the information that you requested to help with their problem. Perhaps they feel that someone else will come along and provide that elusive "quick fix" message.

On the flip side of the coin, I am hesitant to help because of the backlash you get from others when they think your solution is totally off base. An example is that I posted a lot about systems freezing up and asked a few to check their logs for an error message referring to the timer chip. I have had several systems lock-up because of that. But all I got was a good bashing for suggesting such "Stupid" things.

Therefore, I have cut back on my "help" and kinda feel a bit of an outcast here. I enjoy Ubuntu and the forums - dont get me wrong. Its just its turning me off with the rudeness.

1. Respect one another.
2. Google your problem or search the forum before asking.
3. Provide information when someone takes their valuable time to help.
4. If you solved your problem POST HOW YOU DID IT! Do not just post "Never-mind, I fixed it".

Sorry for being a rant here.

coffee

[aG93IGRvIGkgdWJ1bnR1Pw==]

Because UF is trying to bias its users towards contributing in the support sections by only counting the posts there. I refuse to act as unpaid tech support with this kind of attitude.

[CharlesA]

Because UF is trying to bias its users towards contributing in the support sections by only counting the posts there. I refuse to act as unpaid tech support with this kind of attitude.
Post count is meaningless. Always has been.

[aG93IGRvIGkgdWJ1bnR1Pw==]

Post count is meaningless. Always has been.

Then why only make unpaid tech support posts and incoherent "I'm too lazy to use google, fix my problems now" posts count towards the post count?

[alexfish]

I always try to help where possible , sometimes it helps to be patient if knowing the user has little experience with linux , and also from a on the plate os,

what boils my dingle its this / extract of post and reply


Originally Posted by jdcrownover http://1.2.3.10/bmi/ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=10081256#post10081256)
Wow, looonnnngggg post. A prime example of why I have NOT yet made Ubuntu my primary operating system -- there is NO SINGLE GOOD INSTALL APPLICATION available.

I've been looking around trying to figure out how to get my Options Velocity modem working. I see lots of suggestions with lots of packages, some of which I have install, but most of these require you to KNOW LINUX AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL to do anything. THEY DON'T EVEN TELL YOU WHICH DIRECTORY YOU NEED TO PUT STUFF IN.

I read a post made in JANUARY 2010 about ZeroCD. Here it is 11 months later, and there is STILL NOTHING IN THE UBUNTU UPDATES which allows my zeroCD to operate.

And I haven't even attempted yet to attach my peripheral devices to my Ubuntu laptop, mainly because I now expect the same LACK OF SUPPORT for them as well.

PS - I'm writing this from my WINDOWS 7 laptop, where my Options Velocity modem INSTALL WITH NO PROBLEMS AT ALL.

Remember one thing . Your service provider had these drivers pre-install on the device, and certainly for your choice of operating system,
most do not have Linux drivers pre-installed.

Perhaps the comments would be of a different nature,
If you had the will and the want to use Linux as an Operating system

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
Yet again I was polite with the writing , yet the brain cells was telling me to write something else

[CharlesA]

Then why only make unpaid tech support posts and incoherent "I'm too lazy to use google, fix my problems now" posts count towards the post count?
This forum's main purpose is to support Ubuntu.

Everyone is a volunteer here. No one is forcing you to help anyone, but you can read up on how the beans work here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=239560).

If you have a problem with the "bean count" make a thread in the Forum Feedback area.

[oldos2er]

I sometimes cringe when I see support requests asking "What do I do?" and the error message has told them something like "Please run sudo dpkg --configure -a manually", something that has been covered several times before in the forum. At least the error message says to use sudo these days.

Several times? You're a master of understatement!

I actually don't mind answering questions of that type; I get the feeling (and I could be wrong) that Windows users have learned not to read error msgs, perhaps because on Windows they are too arcane for an end user to understand--I don't know.

I do know how it feels to be so inexperienced that it's not even possible to frame a meaningful question.

[tgm4883]

I think my post in this thread speaks for itself.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10497859&postcount=13

I actually had a long talk with my wife about this type of situation. (She is a elementary school teacher)

People no longer know how to think. I've seen way too many threads on the forums recently that would be solved not by a google search, but by simply reading the output and applying some critical thinking.

[Dustin2128]

I will blame that the culture has changed.
I startec coming here fall 2009, and even back then it bothered me that people did not even attempt to read the error message they got. I am have not seen the support forum for.... 4-5 months?... but before that point the amount of noobishness was starting to get out of hand.
The other problem is: The support forum is suppose to be for finding obscure PPA's, for non-obvious trouble, and the alike.
I think in 8 of 10 cases the forums failed to help me, mainly because my problems was not "standard", and I think the real problem is that the forums is not segreated into "standard problems" and "random stuff keeps on happening!".
I used to help on the IRC too, but I dislike how it has changed. It is starting to get impossible to get proper help if your problem are non-trivial.
This too, 100%. When I came here in '08, ubuntu was a normal linux disro, and more and more it seems like it's breaking off. I know, don't hate the user, but.... damn. No kidding about the noobishness.

[the8thstar]

I haven't stop helping.

However I am often faced with situations that are hardware related, therefore I can't solve the issue.

And in truth, I don't have the time to answer and share as much as I'd like to. Work and family life take their toll on your leisure time!

[TeoBigusGeekus]

I haven't stopped helping either, but I only do it in threads of general linux issues and not ubuntu specific.
I don't care much whether the op answers or not, although I'd much prefer it if they did: answering questions about bash, for example, is intriguing as it makes me think and/or revise my bash knowledge - I don't mind the op not heeding me.
So, yeah, I answer mainly for my pleasure, as selfish as this sounds.

As for the "how do I install a .deb" or "I get a 'please type sudo apt-get install -f' what should I do?" threads, I usually don't bother. If someone can't google or realise the obvious, they'll be out of linux sooner or later.
I even question the legitimacy of answering these kinds of threads: do we really do the ops any good answering them?
Sometimes ubuntuforums feel like the kindergarten of linux...

PS: @Old_Gray_Wolf: Excellent thread me old bean!

[jbrown96]

This forum's main purpose is to support Ubuntu.

Everyone is a volunteer here. No one is forcing you to help anyone, but you can read up on how the beans work here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=239560).

If you have a problem with the "bean count" make a thread in the Forum Feedback area.

This is part of the reason why I've left. What you can't have a discussion about this here? You want to move it to another forum that no one ever reads, so no one sees criticism.

If you drive away the causal community (usually very experienced) that's not looking for support but general discussions, who's going to help people?

As many others have said, it's the unintelligible demands for help written in unreadable English that have driven me away.

I kind of miss the days when people only had one computer (or internet capable device) and when they messed it up with Linux, they couldn't connect to the internet to whine.

The more that I use Linux, the less that I care about the distribution that I use. Upstream is about the only thing that I follow because that's where the real work is done.

I've moved on to quieter forums where I know the people, even if only by screen name. There's more accountability but not at all from the moderators.
I'm more concerned about having deep discussions about Linux or related projects. I'm only interested in support insofar as it can spur a discussion.

I used to visit this site a lot, but it's slipped to #8 on my Chrome most visited pages, which is the last spot. Once it falls off of there, I'm not sure I would even think to come back. This place has been overrun with asinine support requests. There's very little here for experts.

[CharlesA]

This is part of the reason why I've left. What you can't have a discussion about this here? You want to move it to another forum that no one ever reads, so no one sees criticism.

Where was it said that there can't be criticism?


I've moved on to quieter forums where I know the people, even if only by screen name. There's more accountability but not at all from the moderators.
I'm more concerned about having deep discussions about Linux or related projects. I'm only interested in support insofar as it can spur a discussion.

If you've got a problem with the mods, you should take it up with the admins in the Resolution Center.

[sdlynx]

Most of the time, the problems that I know how to solve already have solutions posted by someone else. If I actually see a thread that I can help in, though, I will (of course, it's been a while).

[dmn_clown]

Then why only make unpaid tech support posts and incoherent "I'm too lazy to use google, fix my problems now" posts count towards the post count?

What I love is that the majority of those "fixes" provided by a google search are just links to old forum posts, usually with answers that don't solve the problem. Awesome, then again, it is probably a good thing for huge support contracts when users can't support themselves.

[ankspo71]

Hi,
I'm still here to help out where I can, but I use Kubuntu now so it is hard for me to answer Ubuntu and Gnome specific questions without having the Gnome desktop in front of me to see if my advice works. When I come here I usually search for posts tagged or prefixed with KDE or Kubuntu first, before I read anything else.

Some of the questions asked on these forums go against forum rules too, or go against licenses and copywrites of other parties, so I try to avoid answering most of them because I don't want any infractions.

[kevdog]

Its sad for me to read some of the comments from some of the selected users here who state they no longer do any technical support -- they were my mentors from long ago and they know a lot. The amount of actual support I give has actually dropped a lot. Possibly this started after I received a few infractions for my less than kind attitude to some of the users which were too busy talking about their problems rather than reading what I had to say to support them, however I don't think that was the major dismotivation. Frankly, I started becoming bored. Bored in the sense that after a few years, I wasn't really learning as much as I could, and my support simply became like a technical support hotline with routine repeated problems. I've really never committed to the next step of kernel hacking or contributing to a project by tinkering with the source code, so my interested waned. I really wish the forums were more organized, so that questions weren't continuously repeated in one variation or other. I also with their was a section for advanced hacks where very "experienced" users could talk to one another. These users can quickly get to the crux of the matter quickly since they already feel comfortable with posting log messages, editing config files, compiling from source, applying a patch etc.

Other than rambling on, I feel the moderators do a reasonably fine job. If you haven't stepped on people's toes around here once or twice, then you probably aren't a regular and pushing limits.

[Habitual]

People no longer know how to think. I've seen way too many threads on the forums recently that would be solved not by a google search, but by simply reading the output and applying some critical thinking.

Amen.

[SeijiSensei]

I've only been active for about six months now, and I'm already starting to think my time here is coming to an end. I, too, am disgruntled by the sense of entitlement issues. Every day I go back and check my posts from the preceding day to see if there are responses that I need to address. I find an increasing number of cases where I'll post an extended solution to a problem, only to see that mine is the last post in the thread. OPs seem to come and complain and then drift away, often without any acknowledgement of the help they've received. It especially irks me when I've invested ten or twenty minutes in a single reply, often including code and sometimes original scripts. I find that rude, but maybe given my advanced age I'm expecting a higher level of civility than our current culture supports.

Here are a few more specific suggestions:

1) The Networking forum is a zoo because it's full of complaints about wifi issues. I don't know why those problems are lumped with questions about routing, firewalling, and the like. Put the wifi discussion in the Hardware forum; leave the Networking forum to real networking issues.

2) I've already complained about the lack of support for KDE and Kubuntu. There should be a forum devoted to Kubuntu here. I shouldn't have to go to another site to learn about it.

3) I don't really know how to solve the generic clueless "please help me" type of posts. I know there are sticky links to HOWTOs and the like, but it's clear no one reads them. My most recent favorite was the "I want to setup a mail server, but I don't know how; please help" item the other day. Perhaps the HOWTOs are too detailed? Maybe a set of FAQs might be a better choice? E.g.,

I can't send mail to other servers.

1) Call your ISP and make sure they're not blocking port 25.

etc.

[castrojo]

I don't really do user support here anymore (other than Natty forums).

I find the /system/ of forums (and mailing lists) to just be too old and crufty. I do user support on askubuntu now because it's easy to dupe the "dpkg-reconfigure -a" question when I do get one. And I don't usually have to because the software does duplicate detection as the person is typing in the question, so I only ever have to answer the question once. That and people can also vote on the best answer and without having to deal with noise.

I wouldn't blame the people asking the questions for the repeats. "Just Google It" isn't the same anymore. There are tons of information out there that is just plain wrong; the reason people ask here is they want reassurance that it's not just some guy's blog telling them to sudo this and sudo that. But from looking at some threads we have that problem here too. If vbulletin had some kind of duplicate detection people wouldn't need to ask the same thing over and over.

However by the time someone with the knowledge to help finds the thread it's already on page 234895, so at that point answering the question doesn't make sense anymore because it's been derailed or "oh neat I have that computer too lol"ed to death.

I also can barely READ support forums sometimes with the ridiculousness of the forum signatures. I filed a bug with the forums council but they disagreed, so I just did as they do in Rome and added a signature. :)

However I do like the Natty and CC forums, as there really is no replacement for the vibe of hanging out and discussing things, though for answering people's problems it just doesn't work out for me.

[koenn]

I've only been active for about six months now, and I'm already starting to think my time here is coming to an end. I, too, am disgruntled by the sense of entitlement issues.

I see you post stuff in the server forum. Good stuff. Don't go away.
Just be more selective about the post you get involved in - skip the clueless onse, the entitlement ones, etc.



I find that rude, but maybe given my advanced age I'm expecting a higher level of civility than our current culture supports

yep, you're getting old.





1) The Networking forum is a zoo because it's full of complaints about wifi issues. I don't know why those problems are lumped with questions about routing, firewalling, and the like. Put the wifi discussion in the Hardware forum; leave the Networking forum to real networking issues.

+1.
I enjoy network stuff, but I hardly ever look at the networking forum anymore. I left when every other thread had to do with broadcom drivers and ndsiwrapper




3) I don't really know how to solve the generic clueless "please help me" type of posts.
yeah, those become time sinks, and boring, very fast. I often ignore them, or post a few questions to get an idea of what's going on, but if that doesn't yield any info, its bye-bye.


----

So, in general, that's why I stay away from absolute beginners and general help (etc), and usually hang out in the servers forum.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

As for the "how do I install a .deb" or "I get a 'please type sudo apt-get install -f' what should I do?" threads, I usually don't bother. If someone can't google or realise the obvious, they'll be out of linux sooner or later.
I even question the legitimacy of answering these kinds of threads: do we really do the ops any good answering them?
Sometimes ubuntuforums feel like the kindergarten of linux...

Sometimes I think I do a disservice by answering some questions, however, they aren't necessarily using Linux to learn anything. They just want their computer to work.

There are times, after spending hours trying to help someone that can not properly copy and paste commands into a terminal, that I wish I could ssh or rdp to their computer and just fix it for them.

[Simian Man]

A big reason for me is spelling and grammar. It used to be that nearly all Linux users were (relatively) mature people who took the time and effort to communicate clearly. Now we have what I call the compiz crowd using Linux who seem to think a forum is like text messaging. If someone doesn't take the time to use correct English, I don't take the time to even read their post. I realize not everyone here is a native speaker, but there is a difference between someone who's English isn't good and someone who just doesn't care, and I can tell the difference.

[XubuRoxMySox]

Most of the questions have to do with Gnome and/or KDE, and whatever familiarity I had with Gnome is out of date anyway since I've been using Xfce exclusively now for the better part of a year. Kinda forgot how to configure a Gnome desktop.

I don't use docks or Conky or Compiz or any of that fancy stuff that alot of questions are asked about. My Xfce panels do all the same things a dock does (and more, like the weather applet and such), and Xfce is so darn intuitively simple and self-explanatory that whenever I need to change or "fix" something I just click my way through whatever menus and options until it's done. I don't write down every step of the process "in case I forget next time" or "in case it helps somebody else," because if it's simple enough for an autistic kid like me, I can't imagine anyone who can read needing any help with it!

And my experience with Xubuntu and it's offshoots has been so trouble free, I frankly haven't gained alot of experience troubleshooting and fixing stuff. Thus despite being an "experienced" Linux user, I really don't have alot of experience to draw from! It's kinda like a guy who graduates from firefighting school and gets a job at a remote rural fire station where he never fights a fire for 20 years... does he have "20 years of experience" or "one year of experience, repeated nineteen times"? That's me. A two-year Linux "veteran" with about a month's experience repeated 23 times.

But gosh, that's why I love Linux so much! It has been almost completely trouble free, and even simpler since I found Xfce, that I've hardly done anything other than install and upgrade. Can't do much good in the help forums, 'cept maybe answer a few Xfce questions in the Desktop Environments section.

-Robin

[jchw]

I have been using Ubuntu for about 7 months now and have found the support in the forum very useful and much appreciated. However, it took several weeks to find my way around the various forums, on line guides, bug reports etc etc. Only recently did I discover that Google is an excellent way to track down results for a particular error or problem as it seems to connect all the different forums and threads. I would give support but in most cases I think my technical level is still not adequate and others are far more qualified than me to answer questions.

Many of the people moving to Ubuntu from Windows are used to a system that is pre-installed from new and all the drivers and connections are working. Most have never installed an operating system in their lives and use computers for what they do not because they like playing around making them work. I suspect the majority who would like to either use Linux or give it a try never actually get the system installed and fall at the first hurdle.

With Windows or Mac there are many ways of calling for help for the 'Clueless' to have their questions addressed. These help lines need the patience of saints but they do get people up and running in the majority of cases successfully. With Windows if you have a question you can always find someone with the answer, the software supplier, the hardware supplier, a friend, relative, company IT desk etc. With the Ubuntu forum if you advise a complete novice to 'please type sudo apt-get install -f' you may as well be writing in Chinese.

In my case other than the forums there is no other support available in my location. I do not know any other person who uses Ubuntu to be able to ask 'Clueless' questions first hand. Many of the clueless questions could be answered in seconds if you could just speak to someone directly either face to face or on the phone. In my case I have spend days and days over the last 7 months studying various guides and threads and now feel reasonably confident in the system. I suspect most people are not prepared to do this and expect a system that works first click.

Maybe the answer is to get more people using the system and so broaden the pool of knowledge available for local support. Possibly the schools and IT courses could be broadened to include Linux in the sylabus but of course that would require critical mass to be feasible. Critical mass will not happen until Ubuntu is as easy as click and go.

[Hedgehog1]

Reading this thread has been most enlightening.

As of writing this post today, I have been trying to help folks for just over a month. In this short time, I have already experienced many of the things that are causing discouragement among previous posters of this thread.

The TV character 'House' always says: 'Everybody lies'.

Thankfully this is not always true with posts, but it happens more often then I had expected when someone is posting they have a problem, and only many posts later do we find out that they had futzed with the system (which is OK if you are willing to learn from it) and didn't tell us.

Posters vary from kind and thankful, to rude and 'but it works in Windows'.

I am an R&D guy who loves to experiment (if you can leave well enough alone, you don't belong in R&D). I have a dozen Vbox machines built with variations of Ubuntu and other Distros where I try things, restore the virtual machine and try again.

I established them for my own needs - but I use them at least 1/2 the time to try and figure out what thing the OP did.

Some of the longest 'new' posts I have seen, however, are when the OP is really honest and thankful. These often go for pages that 1/2 technical help and 1/2 friendly discussion on what various options there are to help the OP. Finding a nice OP draws us, I guess.

For the near future, I am learning from the effort, so it is OK.

But I can understand the burn out the long time forum members have, and the sadness at the change of the type of person posting.

I will risk a summation: Ubuntu has become a victim of it's own success; so too have it's forums.

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

The thing that has been the most irritating for me lately are posts where:

1) The OP posts their problem.
2) People respond to the OP's post.
3) The OP doesn't reply to the responses with information about whether the suggestions working or not.
4) The OP doesn't provide any additional information when the response doesn't work.
5) The OP then complains that they are not getting help.
I don't care whether the OP is getting useful advice or not, they don't have the right to complain about the quality of care they are getting. If they want to complain about service, they should pay for it.

[brookie]

As an ex PC Tech, I basically get frustrated with the same old questions about installing a new os, breaking a previously installed windows os, blah, blah, blah...

I help on some basic things and thank those who have helped me. I surf the forums for fun and learning about how to fix things for myself when I bork them.

Most of these new users shouldn't be installing new os's (windows or linux) on their machines with no knowledge of basic pc troubleshooting, os installation, partitioning, grub, mbr, networking/wireless, and other basic sw installation stuff.

Bottom line, if you need your computer for day to day production work, and you don't know what the he77 you're doing, don't do it. Take your machine to a professional and have them set it up properly.

"Damn! I just broke my system. I installed Ubuntu over Ubuntu over Windows 7, over, Linux Mint 10, and this thing won't boot, and I have to get a paper typed out, and I need help right this minute, and I can't get on the internet, and I can't print, and it's a friggin emergency, OMG, OMG!!!"

Just a little laugh there. Haha. :) I still do love these forums though. Just got a Linksys WRT54G v2.2 running Tomato in wireless client mode so now I can sit in the coffee shop with my lappy plugged into a router as my wireless card just to get the questions and laughs.

Have fun on the forums, help when you can and want to, don't when you don't have the time or don't want to. Learn what you can, share if you want, ...

Live, learn, love life, and most importantly don't forget to breathe. It will all work itself out in the end.

Cheers,
brook

[NCLI]

i stopped helping a lot cause the mods are getting to harsh, after a few infractions for simply helping, you start to treat everything like egg shells, watch where you step, what you say. it just becomes not worth helping, i haven't stopped, but i have cut back & post i do make i keep short.

there are polite rules of society that are just no longer used here.
example:
it is common to tell someone they did something wrong the first time, as in a warning. not here though, you'll just get the infraction.

i posted a win98 key for someone that asked, i figured what the heck it's an old os, no longer supported by ms, back then you could install on as many machines as you wanted. no warning, just penalty.

the next was Endorsing the use of illegal or pirated software, no warning, just penalty.

i'm a nice guy if you tell me it's wrong, i try not to do it again.


the forum doesn't care about people or are feelings, theres enough people here, they assume we're replaceable, so now theres just newbies helping newbies, for the most part, i just read & see what happens, it don't matter that i might know the fix, i just don't care anymore.

To be fair, penalties are warnings. You have to acquire quite a lot of them in very little time before it means anything.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

A big reason for me is spelling and grammar. It used to be that nearly all Linux users were (relatively) mature people who took the time and effort to communicate clearly. Now we have what I call the compiz crowd using Linux who seem to think a forum is like text messaging. If someone doesn't take the time to use correct English, I don't take the time to even read their post. I realize not everyone here is a native speaker, but there is a difference between someone who's English isn't good and someone who just doesn't care, and I can tell the difference.

Hahaha, a lot of the old Linux users are engineers. Engineers are known for their inability to spell or use proper punctuation. I am one of them.

Tweet-speak makes it harder for me to help someone. I must translate tweet-speak into some semblance of English before I can offer someone assistance.

I must be in the "u r old" category.

:lolflag:

[ki4jgt]

The absolute smirkiness of responses given to ops who are in the "Absolute Beginners" forum, kind of scares me. If you aren't prepared to give answers to people you consider to be idiots, don't try to do it. a new turn on the old adage:

IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NICE, DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

The absolute smirkiness of responses given to ops who are in the "Absolute Beginners" forum, kind of scares me. If you aren't prepared to give answers to people you consider to be idiots, don't try to do it. a new turn on the old adage:

IF YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NICE, DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!

That is the reason some people are posting in this thread. For various reasons they have chosen not to say anything at all.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Most of these new users shouldn't be installing new os's (windows or linux) on their machines with no knowledge of basic pc troubleshooting, os installation, partitioning, grub, mbr, networking/wireless, and other basic sw installation stuff.

Bottom line, if you need your computer for day to day production work, and you don't know what the he77 you're doing, don't do it. Take your machine to a professional and have them set it up properly.


I am struggling with my own conflicts between how things should be and how they are in reality. I would like everyone to be able to install the OS of their choice; however, it isn't that simple. No matter what OS you are trying to install, you need some basic computer knowledge. I don't know if installing an OS will ever be as simple as installing an application.

[tgm4883]

Same reason I specified before. Seriously, it would have taken less time to actually find the information himself than it did for him to post the question.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=10502685&posted=1#post10502685

[Hedgehog1]

...
Most of these new users shouldn't be installing new os's (windows or linux) on their machines with no knowledge of basic pc troubleshooting, os installation, partitioning, grub, mbr, networking/wireless, and other basic sw installation stuff.
...
brook

Brooks observation is a very valid one. There are those few who don't know **but** want to learn, but many others who don't know and want to keep it that way.

The 'Linux will never be ready for Prime Time' rant is usually from the the second camp. They complain that the Windows PC at the office works without all of this effort. Little do they know the IT department puts a lot of time to get windows running and keeping it virus free, day in and day out. Some leave swearing they will never use Linux again. Telling them their no-maintenance router they have been using for years runs Linux falls on deaf ears.

[grief -l]

Not just the support forums, I've given the whole ubuntuforums.org a miss because of the preponderance of tuxtosterone. I know it's just human nature for car enthusiasts to get revved up about their favorite car, and gun enthusiasts to go off about muzzle velocity, but for goodness' sake, this is just an OS! And most of it has nothing at all to do with linux - it's about gnu, and Gnome, and ubuntu so I really don't comprehend the tuxtosterone thing, like a biker-fest for nerds.

[Blutkoete]

In my opinion, the fact that more and more "stupid" questions appear means that more and more non-"Geeks" are using or trying to use Ubuntu. If people want Ubuntu to be a popular OS for human beings, people can't exclude the average dumb I-just-want-it-to-work user. The developers in charge of usability should read the Absolute Beginner Forum carefully and try to include those experiences into newer versions of Ubuntu.

Of course simple Let-me-google-that-for-you questions annoy those who voluntarily help, but it's a price we have to pay if Ubuntu wants to be used by a broader public. And always remember: It's hard to google for a solution if you don't know what the problem is or how things are named; it's hard to search a solution for your splash screen if you don't know that it is called "splash screen".

What makes me wonder all the time is that people are more familiar with just clicking around and looking for something that might help them in Windows than in Ubuntu; people fear the Ubuntu settings panel more than they fear the Windows settings panel and I don't know why.

Nobody is forced to help, but we should also see the good aspects of "stupid" questions and try to avoid the "I liked the band before everyone else liked it and now I don't like it anymore" attitude.

[Brandel Valico]

I have never been as helpful as I'd like to be due to time constraints. But when I am able and actually know the answers or have an idea that made lead to it I try and share it. Though I'll admit I often ignore ones I do know simply due to the attitudes of the OP's involved. Nothing puts me off quicker then the "I posted this issue 20 minutes ago and have bumped it 20 times since then and have yet to get any help so this whole forum and linux sucks" comments I see far to often as of late.

[del_diablo]

I don't care whether the OP is getting useful advice or not, they don't have the right to complain about the quality of care they are getting. If they want to complain about service, they should pay for it.

Last time I checked "spam" was not allowed was it?
I think just throwing more fuel towards the fire that says "it is a problem and unsolveable" is a big problem, and it should not be allowed.
On the other hand you have the issue of people posting problems, and they did not read the error message, they themselves are impolite and they lie.
So lets ask a question instead: Should being an unhelpfull **** be allowed?

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

Last time I checked "spam" was not allowed was it?
I think just throwing more fuel towards the fire that says "it is a problem and unsolveable" is a big problem, and it should not be allowed.
On the other hand you have the issue of people posting problems, and they did not read the error message, they themselves are impolite and they lie.
So lets ask a question instead: Should being an unhelpfull **** be allowed?
I don't understand your post. I think maybe you misunderstood me. I'm saying under no circumstance should a person asking a question complain that the help they get isn't good enough. It doesn't increase the quality of help they are going to receive. It's more likely to offend people.

The reason I say that is because these people are willingly volunteering their time. They are offering service. You don't complain about free service!

The inverse is true also. If "helpers" don't like the kind of posts they are seeing in a forum, they don't need to complain about it in that thread (I see this thread as an entirely different and reasonable place to do it), they can just ignore the thread.

[del_diablo]

No, we agree.
However, "can not complain" is a false dilemma ain't it?

[cartisdm]

I'm sorry, I really don't understand all the backlash toward the noobs. That's why there is a special sub-forum for beginners. Sure, you'd expect those taking the plunge into Linux would have a decent level of computing knowledge under their belt, but with Ubuntu that's not the case. Isn't that what it's here for? Essentially, "plug-and-play." Doing so will result in many more users installing the OS and not knowing where to start. What's wrong with that? Getting mad at the growing number of beginners is like getting mad at the bad drivers on the road. You're not going to institute a change just by flipping them the bird every time you get cut off.

I considered myself a very prominent computer user during my freshman year of college, yet I had never even touched linux. While at the bookstore one day a Live-CD just fell out of the 7.04 book as I was flipping through (I didn't even know what a Live-CD was). Due to some video card driver I was unable to use the graphical installation. I felt like a blind person trying to play golf and I know I asked some absolute stupid questions in the process. Thanks to the help (and patience!) of this forum, I got through it with only a minor headache. I've been using Linux distros ever since!

No c'mon people. Lighten up on the beginners. You can yell at them all you want about "using a search feature" "try google" blah blah blah, but they don't know it. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE BEGINNERS. Sheesh.


EDIT: Please forgive any spelling errors. I'm stuck w/ IE 6 at work and no spell check built in...

[lisati]

Catching up with what has been contributed to this thread inspired some nostalgia for me. Back when I was first learning about computers, I had to use punched cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card), a deck of which was submitted to a machine locked up in a room inaccessible to most first-year university students. I'd then have to wait for it to be processed and for the to be printout delivered. If something went wrong, I had to actually sit down and think about how to fix it, make the necessary corrections, and resubmit. Very different to what many of the younger contributors have experienced.

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

No, we agree.
However, "can not complain" is a false dilemma ain't it?
I guess so. I don't like the alternatives though :D

[uRock]

Nothing spells "New users go away!" better than having a thread bashing them. Not sure why there needs to be a thread complaining about people asking for help on a help forum.

[cartisdm]

Nothing spells "New users go away!" better than having a thread bashing them. Not sure why there needs to be a thread complaining about people asking for help on a help forum.

+1

And why are we bashing Mods who are just here to help keep the place in check? Have I really missed that much in the few months I've been away?

[koenn]

Nothing spells "New users go away!" better than having a thread bashing them. Not sure why there needs to be a thread complaining about people asking for help on a help forum.

and nothing spells "old farts, get lost" better than denying said farts an opportunity to blow of steam, as in this thread

[aysiu]

I haven't been answering as many support questions lately, mainly because all I ever did was help people with the easy stuff, and Ubuntu has gotten a lot better at making things point-and-click, so when people run into problems, they're usually ones I can't easily help fix.

It's stated in our Code of Conduct that answers of the RTFM or "Google it" variety are not acceptable here, and I think (speaking for me and not necessarily for all the other staff) there are several good reasons for that: Manuals and guides do not always make sense to new users. Many are written for people who are already familiar with Linux or bash. Google search results (or any search engine's results) do not always return the best, most up-to-date, or most reliable information. It's very possible that a search will return results from 2006 or 2008, and we know that that's ancient history in Ubuntu time. The Edgy Eft tutorial isn't going to help you much in Natty Narwhal. People who are learning Linux for the first time can find the whole experience overwhelming, so to have a few things not working can also throw them into a panic. Yelling at a drowning person that she should learn how to swim isn't the most compassionate approach. That's all I can think of for now, but I basically feel if you think people are too dumb or aren't self-sufficient enough to deserve your help, don't help them. Others will step in.

[tgm4883]

I'm sorry, I really don't understand all the backlash toward the noobs. That's why there is a special sub-forum for beginners. Sure, you'd expect those taking the plunge into Linux would have a decent level of computing knowledge under their belt, but with Ubuntu that's not the case. Isn't that what it's here for?

<snip>

No c'mon people. Lighten up on the beginners. You can yell at them all you want about "using a search feature" "try google" blah blah blah, but they don't know it. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE BEGINNERS. Sheesh.


EDIT: Please forgive any spelling errors. I'm stuck w/ IE 6 at work and no spell check built in...

You are mistaken, the backlash isn't toward "noobs" in general (and I'm not even sure backlash is the right word here since we aren't attacking users directly). The issue is users (both new and old, although there seem to be more new users doing it) that lack common sense. And I don't mean computer common-sense here, I mean common sense. I have no issues helping someone that doesn't understand an error message, or needs assistance on where to look for errors. The issue I have is when the error message is printed to the screen, tells them exactly what to do, and they don't even bother to read it before creating a new thread and posting the error message asking for help. This isn't an issue of users not understanding error messages, this is an issue of users not being able to apply critical thinking to a situation and/or put forth even the least amount of effort to solve the issue.


Nothing spells "New users go away!" better than having a thread bashing them. Not sure why there needs to be a thread complaining about people asking for help on a help forum.

It's a thread designed to blow off steam. Sure one may not understand the intent and just use it to rip on new users, but that wasn't why this thread was started. I would say this is more of an area to gather common posting issues that we are seeing on the forum.

IIRC, not too long ago someone was removed from one of the larger open source projects because they were terrible to work with, often attacking users and belittling people. The foundation let them do this for a long time, as they were a highly skilled developer and did a lot of work. The people in this thread are posting here because we are getting frustrated with the expectations of the users and the lack of work they are willing to do to solve their own issues. We aren't attacking the users. Take a look at many of the threads we have referenced and we have continued to help the user while continuing to be polite about it. It's nice to have a place to post frustrations about what is happening on the forum. I urge the moderators to think about this before making a decision on closing this thread.

[3Miro]

I haven't been answering as many support questions lately, mainly because all I ever did was help people with the easy stuff, and Ubuntu has gotten a lot better at making things point-and-click, so when people run into problems, they're usually ones I can't easily help fix.


This is kind of true for me too. I also moved away from Ubuntu and now I have to use Virtual Box to test problems/solutions or just to see what the Debian command is.

In the past, I have stopped helping users (as in stop watching the thread), due to attitude mostly. If I ask for more info or more details (with instructions like go to Apps -> Access->Terminal and run "sudo fdisk -l") and all I get back is a rant on how bad Ubuntu is, then I just don't help that person. If someone is computer illiterate, but is willing to follow instructions, I don't mind being step-by-step verbose.

[uRock]

and nothing spells "old farts, get lost" better than denying said farts an opportunity to blow of steam, as in this thread
Who is denying "old farts" their opportunity to "blow off steam" when this thread is still open?

If I walked into a company and there was a group of employees standing around the water cooler complaining about helping customers, then I'd go somewhere else and if that meant dropping the company's product, then I would do so.

[uRock]

It's a thread designed to blow off steam. Sure one may not understand the intent and just use it to rip on new users, but that wasn't why this thread was started. I would say this is more of an area to gather common posting issues that we are seeing on the forum.

IIRC, not too long ago someone was removed from one of the larger open source projects because they were terrible to work with, often attacking users and belittling people. The foundation let them do this for a long time, as they were a highly skilled developer and did a lot of work. The people in this thread are posting here because we are getting frustrated with the expectations of the users and the lack of work they are willing to do to solve their own issues. We aren't attacking the users. Take a look at many of the threads we have referenced and we have continued to help the user while continuing to be polite about it. It's nice to have a place to post frustrations about what is happening on the forum. I urge the moderators to think about this before making a decision on closing this thread.Maybe we should make the cafe a place where only the elite members can read/reply so that new users don't see threads like this and get the idea that people here don't want to help.

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

If I walked into a company and there was a group of employees standing around the water cooler complaining about helping customers, then I'd go somewhere else and if that meant dropping the company's product, then I would do so.
What if there were a bunch of customers complaining about how annoying other customers were?

[uRock]

What if there were a bunch of customers complaining about how annoying other customers were?
I think you have misread the title. It says, "If you have, why have you stopped helping in the support forums?" not, "If you have, why have you stopped asking for help in the support forums?"

[koenn]

Who is denying "old farts" their opportunity to "blow off steam" when this thread is still open?
your previous post says, almost litterally, that you doubt it should remain open (or even exist).


If I walked into a company and there was a group of employees standing around the water cooler complaining about helping customers, then I'd go somewhere else and if that meant dropping the company's product, then I would do so.
costumers ? where ?

I thought this was supposed to be a community - users helping fellow users. And in that case, respect goes both ways, and the effort in finding a solution should not solely come from the helper, it's a mutual effort.

Granted, the ubuntu user base is atypical and we do get more new and computer illiterate users than other linux forums (I suppose); but do you really want to build a community of customers and unpaid employees ?

[Ctrl-Alt-F1]

I think you have misread the title. It says, "If you have, why have you stopped helping in the support forums?" not, "If you have, why have you stopped asking for help in the support forums?"
I've been following the thread. My point was that the people offering support are not employees usually, so the analogy about employees whining about offering support isn't quite accurate. I understand the point you were trying to make though. It's most definitely a turn-off to those with thinner skin.

[cartisdm]

I am starting to feel a little bad about my previous rant. Maybe I should have thought from both sides a little more before going off. Honestly, I haven't been in the help forums much because I haven't even touched the surface of the newest releases and I am virtually no help anyway. Maybe I haven't seen the extent of some beginner's requests lately. The "hold-my-hand" approach might be more now than when I was here months ago....

Anywho, I still love this community and they've always helped me. It's, by far, the friendliest forum I've ever been a part of.

[tgm4883]

Maybe we should make the cafe a place where only the elite members can read/reply so that new users don't see threads like this and get the idea that people here don't want to help.

That doesn't seem necessary. That would imply that the users we're discussing here actually looked around first ;)

[ki4jgt]

As an ex PC Tech, I basically get frustrated with the same old questions about installing a new os, breaking a previously installed windows os, blah, blah, blah...

I help on some basic things and thank those who have helped me. I surf the forums for fun and learning about how to fix things for myself when I bork them.

Most of these new users shouldn't be installing new os's (windows or linux) on their machines with no knowledge of basic pc troubleshooting, os installation, partitioning, grub, mbr, networking/wireless, and other basic sw installation stuff.

Bottom line, if you need your computer for day to day production work, and you don't know what the he77 you're doing, don't do it. Take your machine to a professional and have them set it up properly.

"Damn! I just broke my system. I installed Ubuntu over Ubuntu over Windows 7, over, Linux Mint 10, and this thing won't boot, and I have to get a paper typed out, and I need help right this minute, and I can't get on the internet, and I can't print, and it's a friggin emergency, OMG, OMG!!!"

Just a little laugh there. Haha. :) I still do love these forums though. Just got a Linksys WRT54G v2.2 running Tomato in wireless client mode so now I can sit in the coffee shop with my lappy plugged into a router as my wireless card just to get the questions and laughs.

Have fun on the forums, help when you can and want to, don't when you don't have the time or don't want to. Learn what you can, share if you want, ...

Live, learn, love life, and most importantly don't forget to breathe. It will all work itself out in the end.

Cheers,
brook

Couldn't agree more! But that is how we all got to where we are today. We completely messed up our system from mbr to swap and then had to find out how to fix it. These people just get to that point and then get so scared they're going to break everything, they start clawing at anything they can get.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Catching up with what has been contributed to this thread inspired some nostalgia for me. Back when I was first learning about computers, I had to use punched cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card), a deck of which was submitted to a machine locked up in a room inaccessible to most first-year university students. I'd then have to wait for it to be processed and for the to be printout delivered. If something went wrong, I had to actually sit down and think about how to fix it, make the necessary corrections, and resubmit. Very different to what many of the younger contributors have experienced.

I remember those days. Remember when the person that submitted the deck of cards in front of yours forget the "end" card? :)

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

and nothing spells "old farts, get lost" better than denying said farts an opportunity to blow of steam, as in this thread

I started this thread, and today is my 63rd birthday; therefore, I guess "old fart" applies. I linger around the forum like a smelly old fart. Like the smelly one someone quietly releases in your work place that doesn't seem to want to go away.

The thread is still open, which surprises me. So far, no one has told me to "get lost".

:lolflag:

I will wait until tomorrow to see if the Ubuntu forum updates my age in my profile correctly. I was born on leap-year, February 29th.

[kevdog]

Old-Gray-Wolf

Kind of like fortran punch cards you would feed into the machine and would come back syntax error? Wouldn't it make you cry?

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Nothing spells "New users go away!" better than having a thread bashing them. Not sure why there needs to be a thread complaining about people asking for help on a help forum.

I didn't intend to bash new users.

I tried to balance the poll with the problems caused by the people providing help versus the problems caused by the person asking for help.

50% of the poll choices identify problems with the people providing the help:


I try to help; however, very often I feel that I fail to solve people's problems.
I experience criticism for solutions being outdated; however, they still work.
Most of the problems are for applications I have no experience using.



50% of the poll choices identify problems with the person asking for help:


People think they are entitled to have someone else solve their problems for them.
People are not forthcoming about what they did to damage their system.
People can't be that incompetent to following instructions; therefore, they must be trolls.


There was no bashing intended, just a question.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Old-Gray-Wolf

Kind of like fortran punch cards you would feed into the machine and would come back syntax error? Wouldn't it make you cry?

Yep, just syntax error. You had to look at every line of code to try to find the error. Not like today where I shows the exact line where the error occurred.

[lisati]

I remember those days. Remember when the person that submitted the deck of cards in front of yours forget the "end" card? :)


Old-Gray-Wolf

Kind of like fortran punch cards you would feed into the machine and would come back syntax error? Wouldn't it make you cry?

Exactly.

One kind of card I encountered early on was a "port-a-punch" card, where instead of using the usual machine, "chads" were knocked out with a pen or paper clip. These cards often came back mangled by the card reader.


Yep, just syntax error. You had to look at every line of code to try to find the error. Not like today where I shows the exact line where the error occurred.
... and sometimes an indication where in the line the error was discovered.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Exactly.

One kind of card I encountered early on was a "port-a-punch" card, where instead of using the usual machine, "chads" were knocked out with a pen or paper clip. These cards often came back mangled by the card reader.


... and sometimes an indication where in the line the error was discovered.

Nice journey down memory lane; however, we better stay on topic before this thread gets closed.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Based on this thread's 6 day life, the results are interesting. I wanted to find out if people on the Ubuntu help forums were reluctant to provide help and if so why.

63% of the responses indicate that the people that would be willing to help are not confident in their abilities to solve problems, don't know the application that people are having problems with, or feel their solutions are outdated even though they work.

Only 37% of the people responding to the poll had issues with the people asking for help.

The title of the thread is definitely biased; however, based on the poll it appears that most of the regular visitors to the Ubuntu help forums are friendly to new or inexperienced users, and would help if they could.

[3177]

I don't care whether the OP is getting useful advice or not, they don't have the right to complain about the quality of care they are getting. If they want to complain about service, they should pay for it.

I dont agree. Everybody deserves to learn how to use Ubuntu,free of charge, no matter how ungrateful. not to mention all of us are ungrateful from time to time.

[tgm4883]

I dont agree. Everybody deserves to learn how to use Ubuntu,free of charge, no matter how ungrateful. not to mention all of us are ungrateful from time to time.

Correct, everyone deserves and is able to learn how to use Ubuntu, free of charge. However, not everyone deserves to be assisted by others, based on how they treat other people.

[kn0w-b1nary]

most of the people I help aren't on the forums. I help some, but it's getting to the point that most questions that I can answer are already answered.

[MooPi]

various reasons. Main ones being pbkac, mods, the outdated solutions criticisms, and the fact that I use slackware. Using slack has made me far more competent with bash and linux, but my ubuntu knowledge has withered. I get heavily criticised for posting simple (IMO) command line options for fixing problems- and I've figured out that a vast number of bugs are because of ubuntu's attempt at user friendliness. You'll have some problems when you have a config file generated by a script generated by another script generated by a GUI program, and I'm just not willing to help people who can't be bothered to use google.
Not a criticism but your post sounds a bit elitist. I agree with the gui characterization but not your assessment of slackware and Ubuntu. My minimal Openbox Ubuntu is heavily scripted and text configured as most slackware installs without the " I'm better because I know more bash commands". I do agree that the extra gui layer and dependence on it is inherently a weak link. But not everyone has the patience or tenacity to tackle a scripted , bashed, shell prompt install as your suggesting. All the more reason to help the new converts. Once they learn the power of command line and the benefit of that knowledge our job is done. I must admit that my recent change in careers has left me with less time to help. Hopefully that will change soon.

[mips]

It's stated in our Code of Conduct that answers of the RTFM or "Google it" variety are not acceptable here...

Just yesterday I referred someone to google, I still however believe my response was valid.

[slooksterpsv]

Have I stopped helping in the support forums? Yes, and here's my list of reasons:


Didn't know the application
Didn't understand some problems
Was banned (temporarily) cause I posted a "controversial" thread
Cause my answers or threads were belittled by others
Was embarrassed cause simple questions were laughed at by other members and not answered
Cause I tried to help and thought I understood something I didn't and lead the OP in the wrong direction (non-destructive direction though)


I'm currently searching threads and help others where I can though.

EDIT:

After reading through some of the other posts on here about what was frustrating them, I figure instead of a dull simple answer, I'll elaborate into a few scenarios.

1. I feel for some of the people that come here. I hate it when I go to a forum, and I've searched for what I'm looking for, so I make a post, and someone links in a post to another thread for the answer. Sorry, it just irritates me cause it's like saying "go read the manual and shut up". When someone replies to my threads like that, I go elsewhere for support. I know the question may have been answered 100 times, but still, I asked a question, why can't I get help on the issue - I want a response to my thread that says people are wanting to help and not push me off in another direction? Instead I get routed. What's more, is when the posted thread doesn't help, then I really get mad. - What this has to do with the thread, I forgot where I was going.

2. I try, when I post, to post multiple things to try, that way we can get further information on what to try next instead of the following:

Post 1 - I can't install programs
Post 2 - Run apt-get update
Post 3 - Didn't work, it gave me this (run as sudo)
Post 4 - Run: sudo apt-get update
Post 5 - Nope, I try to type in password nothing shows
Post 6 - Yeah it won't, try: gksudo apt-get update
Post 7 - Ok it says can't find http://......
Post 8 - Are you wired or wireless
Post 9 - Wired, but I can be wireless
Post 10 - Try that
Post 11 - Didn't work, I can't get on the internet on my computer
Post 12 - Call your ISP.
Post n-1 - Yeah I can't ping google.com
Post n - Try ping 74.121.37.5
Post n+1 - that worked
Post n+2 - Change your dns settings
Post n+3 - How do I do that?
....

get my drift?

The thread gets convoluted so you can't tell what's going on or if they've tried xyz, and you don't answer cause you don't have time to go through 5 pages worth of information to see what they have an haven't tried.

3. When people are rude in a thread, I try to jump in and dissolve the situation as it may end up in people getting mad, frustrated, and "infraction points". But when it starts out a flame war, the thread gets locked, and you may know how to help them, but someone decided to be rude and it just causes frustration for everyone.

4. Recurring - oh wow, so many recurring threads here, BUT, you figure people are new coming here, they're bound to ask the same questions that have been asked 1000s of times. THIS IS A FORUM PEOPLE! It's meant to ask questions, even the same ones over and over. Geeze! People jump in and say "this has been answered before" yes, we know, we get it, but what if your opinions have changed? Answer the thread, just answer them, so what if its recurring, don't just say it and link a thread, answer the question. Do so like this:

"Well I think, abc, blah blah blah, this and that. If you'd like to see previous discussions people have asked about this before, you can see what they said about it. A lot of them are in the "recurring discussion" area."

-- Again I feel I have to try and dissolve threads so people aren't getting mad, so then I stop coming cause I have to keep trying to "moderate" in a sense, to help cause the new people to not get belittled, and the experience help to not get an "infraction".

[Zimmer]

Out of over 55,000 active forum members 78 (so far) have indicated they do not help in the forums anymore...

Mountain, meet molehill...

Aysiu put it best.I reckon there are more beginners now and they are not the same type of beginners we were back in the day...

For those of us who may be tired of googling (hate that word) for beginners problems there is a pool of over 50,000 that may not be.. this is still the best place I have known for finding solutions , but with 1.5 million threads + it could be getting a bit cluttered..of course what we can never know is how many new users out there search and find their answers and 'never' create a thread :)

[SeijiSensei]

I hate it when I go to a forum, and I've searched for what I'm looking for, so I make a post, and someone links in a post to another thread for the answer.

I do that when I've given an extensive answer to a question in another thread and don't want to type it all over again. What's wrong with that? All it takes is clicking on the link.

I continue to be amazed at the number of threads in which my answer is the last posting in the thread. No response from the OP, no comments from anyone else. Who can tell whether my efforts made a difference or not?

Starting a post asking for help and then abandoning it after people have spent time suggesting solutions is still rude in my not-so-very-humble opinion.

[BrokenKingpin]

I have cut back on helping mainly to do with lack of time. If I have a few minutes I usually just browse the community cafe.

[mips]

Cause I tried to help and thought I understood something I didn't and lead the OP in the wrong direction (non-destructive direction though)



I have a problem with this.

It's always very noble to try and help others but if people are not sure then they might be doing the OP a disservice or even cause him harm.

Let's just say something bad did happen although not intentional that will also reflect badly on the forums.

Sometimes one comes across stuff that is totally off base and it just contributes to the noise. Someone that does not know the answer can't distinguish valid information from invalid information.

Personally I prefer forums where invalid advice is pointed out as such. If you are thin skinned then go have a little cry about it or suck it up, apologise, admit you were wrong, learn from the experience and move on.

This touchy feely good fuzzy emotions political correctness stuff gets to me a tad.

Edit: This post sounds like it's wholly directed at you, it's not. It's just a general observation.

[kelvin spratt]

I have a problem with this.

It's always very noble to try and help others but if people are not sure then they might be doing the OP a disservice or even cause him harm.

Let's just say something bad did happen although not intentional that will also reflect badly on the forums.

Sometimes one comes across stuff that is totally off based and it just contributes to the noise. Someone that does not know the answer can't distinguish valid information from invalid information.

Personally I prefer forums where invalid advice is pointed out as such. If you are thin skinned then go have a little cry about it or suck it up, apologise, admit you were wrong, learn from the experience and move on.

This touchy feely good fuzzy emotions political correctness stuff gets to me a tad.
My sentiments as well

[uRock]

I hate it when I go to a forum, and I've searched for what I'm looking for, so I make a post, and someone links in a post to another thread for the answer. Sorry, it just irritates me cause it's like saying "go read the manual and shut up". When someone replies to my threads like that, I go elsewhere for support. I know the question may have been answered 100 times, but still, I asked a question, why can't I get help on the issue - I want a response to my thread that says people are wanting to help and not push me off in another direction? Instead I get routed. What's more, is when the posted thread doesn't help, then I really get mad. - What this has to do with the thread, I forgot where I was going.


4. Recurring - oh wow, so many recurring threads here, BUT, you figure people are new coming here, they're bound to ask the same questions that have been asked 1000s of times. THIS IS A FORUM PEOPLE! It's meant to ask questions, even the same ones over and over. Geeze! People jump in and say "this has been answered before" yes, we know, we get it, but what if your opinions have changed? Answer the thread, just answer them, so what if its recurring, don't just say it and link a thread, answer the question. Do so like this:
Why should people be expected to rewrite a fix when it can be read in another post? I see nothing wrong with linking to another post.

[CharlesA]

I continue to be amazed at the number of threads in which my answer is the last posting in the thread. No response from the OP, no comments from anyone else. Who can tell whether my efforts made a difference or not?

Had that happen to me more then a few times. No response back from the OP and the thread just dies off.

Such is how it works I suppose.

[sydbat]

I did not read through the 100+ posts, but I find that I do not help as much because of two major reasons:

1) By the time I click on a thread I might have an answer to (or want to see what answers are presented for future reference), I find that the OP is usually really frustrated and lost and wanting to quit because basic questions have not been asked.

Especially when someone new wants to know why "A" doesn't work, the first posts should not be "do this blindly", they should be asking specifics to narrow down what is going on for that specific poster. Instead, by the time I look at a thread, people trying to be helpful with blind assertions of "enter this in a terminal" have simply missed the entire point of the original question asked.

I have found that, after I (or someone else) ask the specifics (eg. what their graphics card is), the OP usually clarifies what their problem is and are then helped within one or two posts.

I know everyone here is a volunteer but, to those who do not read the help post they are responding to, yet offer 'blind' solutions - Please stop making assumptions that you immediately know the answer, because that is more dismissive than helpful. ASK the OP specifics to find out what is going on for them first and foremost.

2) Even with the above taken out of the equation (eg. specifics have been asked), there are those people who refuse to tell us anything useful / want to be helped.

"I gots a prblm" does nothing for those of us who are trying to help. Then, deciding that I still want to help (because, apparently I'm a masochist), I try to pull those chicken teeth. The result - what appears to be nothing more than flames / trolling by the OP, with no solution possible.

To those who really do not want any help here - Please do not start help threads. If you want to troll, have at 'er in the Cafe. Leave the help threads to those who need help.

That's my $0.00000003/5

[castrojo]

Why should people be expected to rewrite a fix when it can be read in another post? I see nothing wrong with linking to another post.

Because if the fix wrong (or even worse BAD) it doesn't make sense to keep it around because it just clogs up the internet with bad information.

- [50 pages on how to do foo]
- "oh hey sorry guys, new thread here, ignore this entire thing."

What happens to the guy on step 25? He's doomed at that point!

[uRock]

Because if the fix wrong (or even worse BAD) it doesn't make sense to keep it around because it just clogs up the internet with bad information.

- [50 pages on how to do foo]
- "oh hey sorry guys, new thread here, ignore this entire thing."

What happens to the guy on step 25? He's doomed at that point!
Then (s)he can post in the thread saying where their at and what is going wrong. If the problem is complicated, then I see the need for the specialized attention, but if someone is asking why their system can't play MP3s or DVDs, then I see no reason to have to type out an explanation on how to install restricted extras or libdvdcss2. It is situation dependent.

[del_diablo]

Why should people be expected to rewrite a fix when it can be read in another post? I see nothing wrong with linking to another post.

And when the thread is not linked or "google it!" and google does not yield results?
I think users suggesting such pointless things should get a ban.
Actually linking is good, but if its not done, then what?

[castrojo]

Then (s)he can post in the thread saying where their at and what is going wrong.

And have it closed for necromancy. :)

[uRock]

And have it closed for necromancy. :)
They should post in reply to the link provided in their own thread.

[koenn]

"google it!" and google does not yield results?
google always yields results (but that is sometimes part of the problem)

I think "google" or "wikipedia" is a perfectly acceptable answer to questions along the lines of "I'm looking for FLOSS CAD software" and such


http://www.google.com/search?q=open+source+CAD+software

[TeoBigusGeekus]

google always yields results (but that is sometimes part of the problem)

I think "google" or "wikipedia" is a perfectly acceptable answer to questions along the lines of "I'm looking for FLOSS CAD software" and such


http://www.google.com/search?q=open+source+CAD+software

Acceptable for some, cr@p for others.

[slooksterpsv]

Ok, fine, how about this then, instead of saying - blah blah blah this has been answered 100s of times, heres a thread on it good luck. I think it needs to be rephrased.

Here's this thread on it, it may help you solve your issue, but if it doesn't let us know the steps you went through and we can continue from there. - I've seen a lot where it's just



Yeah read through this, it's been answered 100s of times:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1693472


Which then leads to another reason why I don't help on some threads - thread hijacking. Either people are pointed to a thread where we're not sure if the OP got his/her answer, but people help the HJ (hijacker) then you get lost on if the information is for the OP or the HJ, and you get lost in the thread.

[divergex]

I will help when it is an issue that I am familiar with or have tackled myself. But if there is not enough information to go on, I will leave it alone. Unfortunately I have seen too many questions like, "this won't work" and that's it. Sometimes they are pure newbies, others just are too lazy to gather the information that may be helpful in finding a solution.

I will continue to help where I can be effective though.

[kingbilly]

1. I feel for some of the people that come here. I hate it when I go to a forum, and I've searched for what I'm looking for, so I make a post, and someone links in a post to another thread for the answer. Sorry, it just irritates me cause it's like saying "go read the manual and shut up".


This makes me incredibly sad. I have a friend who signed up to our forums when I couldn't help provide tech support to her ( I was on an internship in Disneyworld, she lives in PA). I stumbled across her threads and was so shocked at the welcome she was given. The replies were all about "READ THE FORUM FAQ" "READ THE MANUAL". This was because she had not used the search feature to check if a previous thread existed. But probably in her mind this place seems a little more interactive than a helpfile, or a wiki page.

Maybe I am the only person who would be happy if more people jumped on bored with Ubuntu or Linux in general. Perhaps I am the only one who would be thrilled if more gaming companies had a reason to port games to Linux. But when I think of all the strangers to Linux, like my mom, my dad, and at one time my friend who I referenced; Many of them do not understand what a "Forum" is, let alone how to sudo apt-get update, or open gconf-editor to put their min/max/close buttons back on the right. If the first welcome these newbies get is a cold "READ THE FORUM FAQ, IDIOT" then this chicken-vs-egg scenario (The first rule about the forum is you have to already know the first rule) is going to have adverse effects on Linux adoption.

We are all some people have in terms of support. If my dad put Ubuntu on his laptop and took it to work, his IT staff are not going to help him. No one at my friend's school where he teaches can help with wireless drivers in Maverick. For these people, we, common humans working together, are all they have. Can we be a little more open and understanding? For some of our new friends and family, the Forum Search button is just as far away (logically) as the CLI.

[mwray]

I had stopped for awhile, mainly due to lack of time to even read the forums, except to search for specific items on current projects. In my house, family comes before tech, so I have had to put a lot of things on the back burner.

[del_diablo]

google always yields results (but that is sometimes part of the problem)

I think "google" or "wikipedia" is a perfectly acceptable answer to questions along the lines of "I'm looking for FLOSS CAD software" and such


http://www.google.com/search?q=open+source+CAD+software

And what if it did not.
If you say "google it!", unless you are providing the googeling yourself, you are not "providing anything", you are just "spewing out crap™".
Especially if the person in question has already googled it.
Of course, asking for something that is completely obvious is eqaully stupid, but that also discredits the idea of spamming something even further since it is equal?

[koenn]

on the subject of "google it", I found this post rather amusing, and relevant to this thread:


http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10519177&postcount=5

...
GIVE MORE INFO or search for what you want on the Net.
You cannot expect others to do all the work for you.
(emphasis added)

[ukripper]

Most results can be found by simple googling. Therefore, IMHO don't see why waste time to help someone who can't help themselves and want to be spoon fed.

[uRock]

on the subject of "google it", I found this post rather amusing, and relevant to this thread:


http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10519177&postcount=5

(emphasis added)

Last time I followed advice found via google, I ended up with a temporary brick because Debian doesn't update their documentation very often. Almost every time I search for something Ubuntu related google takes me to a lot of thread from 08 or older and a lot of those fixes are obsolete.

[aysiu]

Last time I followed advice found via google, I ended up with a temporary brick because Debian doesn't update their documentation very often. Almost every time I search for something Ubuntu related google takes me to a lot of thread from 08 or older and a lot of those fixes are obsolete.
Yes, this.

Beginners who Google are not in a position to discern what tutorials or advice is good or up-to-date.

I highly advice against new users merely Googling or searching for things. Better to get good advice directly from more experienced users.

[castrojo]

So why do we keep all those old threads around? Let's just delete them!

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

For some of our new friends and family, the Forum Search button is just as far away (logically) as the CLI.

I find the Forum search function to be rubbish. Adding "Ubuntu" or "site:ubuntuforums.org" to a Google search returns better results.



Beginners who Google are not in a position to discern what tutorials or advice is good or up-to-date.

I highly advice against new users merely Googling or searching for things. Better to get good advice directly from more experienced users.

I haven't seen that anyone does quality checking of the advice offered on the Ubuntu forum. I have encountered several threads were I thought to myself, "Oh well, the damage has already been done". I just move on to another thread.

Edit: I just realized that this thread is straying off topic again.

[aysiu]

I haven't seen that anyone does quality checking of the advice offered on the Ubuntu forum. I have encountered several threads were I thought to myself, "Oh well, the damage has already been done". I just move on to another thread. I've seen it many times. If someone posts a dangerous command with sudo that will delete the entire filesystem, you can bet there will be three or four posts within the next ten minutes saying "Whatever you do, don't run that command. It will delete your entire system."

If you Google for how to do something, you'll get results of varying quality, and most of it will be outdated (a lot of stuff from 2006 and 2008, I've noticed).

If you ask on the Ubuntu Forums for how to do something, people will give you links they recommend, links that actually have worked for them recently. That doesn't mean they are necessarily the best links always, but they are certainly better than just picking the top result of a Google search.

[koenn]

I've seen it many times. If someone posts a dangerous command with sudo that will delete the entire filesystem, you can bet there will be three or four posts within the next ten minutes saying "Whatever you do, don't run that command. It will delete your entire system."

but that usually only goes for the obviously catastrophically dangerous commands of the delete the entire filesystem kind.

a rather common reply to problems like eg "I don't know how to set permissions that allow me and my colleagues to upload files to a web server" often gets a "just chmod -R 777 the directory" - that'll work, but it's not exactly a good idea, especially for a publicly accessible server.
That sort of poor advice is not always detected and corrected.

[aysiu]

but that usually only goes for the obviously catastrophically dangerous commands of the delete the entire filesystem kind.

a rather common reply to problems like eg "I don't know how to set permissions that allow me and my colleagues to upload files to a web server" often gets a "just chmod -R 777 the directory" - that'll work, but it's not exactly a good idea, especially for a publicly accessible server.
That sort of poor advice is not always detected and corrected.
I'm just saying it's not perfect but it's usually better than blindly accepting top Google results. If I spot someone offering chmod 777 -R / I'm always sure to call them on it.

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

I'm just saying it's not perfect but it's usually better than blindly accepting top Google results.

If I spot someone offering chmod 777 -R / I'm always sure to call them on it.

In my opinion, people that blindly follow Google results should not be installing or modifying an operating system. In order to install or modify an OS, you need some capability to discern good from bad advice.

Knowing that "chmod 777 -R /" isn't a good thing requires some experience doesn't it?

It doesn't matter if someone found it in a Google search or if someone suggested it on the forum, the result is the same.

It could be to late before you find such a post on the forum and correct it. You could be off-line at the time.

My 2 cents.

[sports fan Matt]

I havent stopped--but have not had much time to devote as of late due to my health and work.. I still help when I can. :)

[jerenept]

I find the Forum search function to be rubbish. Adding "Ubuntu" or "site:ubuntuforums.org" to a Google search returns better results.

I like DuckDuckGo (https://duckduckgo.com/): Search for !ubuntuforums %whatever% and you'll get a seach of UF content, and it's way more intuitive than using the site searh directly.

[kevdog]

I havent stopped--but have not had much time to devote as of late due to my health and work.. I still help when I can. :)

Matt -- how are you feeling??? A long time since I've seen you around?

[Dustin2128]

random question: what is the deal with necromancy? Why is it considered impolite? Why does it warrant thread closure?

[uRock]

random question: what is the deal with necromancy? Why is it considered impolite? Why does it warrant thread closure?
How would you like it if someone woke you from the dead with a silly question or input to a problem fixed long ago?

Seriously, most old threads are revived by spammers and locked when we remove the spam. To get a more in depth answer, you may want to bring this up in the FF&H.

[alexfish]

How would you like it if someone woke you from the dead with a silly question or input to a problem fixed long ago?

Seriously, most old threads are revived by spammers and locked when we remove the spam. To get a more in depth answer, you may want to bring this up in the FF&H.

that is what I call magic,

but tell you what when I am gone , don't ask for the in depth of anything

It won't get a reply , unless there is something on the other side to communicate with,as not yet invented.

Whow ,

[SeijiSensei]

random question: what is the deal with necromancy? Why is it considered impolite? Why does it warrant thread closure?

There's also the problem of versions. While advice appropriate to older versions of server applications like Apache might still be relevant, end-user applications are often in flux. As a Kubuntu user, I can tell you that advice appropriate to KDE4-based versions like Lucid may have little applicability to KDE3-based versions like Feisty.

[LinuxFox]

I try to help, but I feel I can't help people with some problems. That said, I helped out once, but I couldn't do much as I never experienced the problem the person was having. Not to mention I still don't know a lot about Linux even though I've used it since 2008. If I remember, I think I told someone how to add a PPA to software sources.

Although, I had a question about using my mass storage digital audio player with Rhythmbox, and someone told me "the time you took to ask this, you could have googled it" and linked me to the Rhythmbox site. I know the site said transfer to mass storage players, but it said that when I was using Rhythmbox on 8.04, which couldn't transfer music, only reads them on players (according to the help window).

The support experience on these forums have been good, except for that one problem. I submitted my player to "media-player-info" and it's added to it, but it hasn't been updated yet. :( For the time being I'm using Windows Media Player to transfer music to my player. I like having a jukebox to use my music player, I find it easier to manage (with auto-sync off of course).